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Old 01-30-2013, 05:31 AM
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PhilosophicallyLost PhilosophicallyLost is offline
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Default "He doesn't deserve it."

Ugh. How to keep this succinct.

I asked my husband early on in the poly thing if I could sleep the night with my boyfriend sometimes (just generic sleep). He said no, and it was still a fresh hurt to him so I didn't bring it up for several months. I waited until he and my boyfriend worked some things out so I can mention it during a time where he'd be more receptive to it. I just asked if we could start with once every week or two to ease my husband into the idea. He said no again, but the reason why is what disturbs me. He said something along the lines of, "I know it's something that would make you happier, but I don't think he (my boyfriend) deserves it."

My husband is still really hurt about the fact my boyfriend agreed to date me. My husband's friends promised that they would never take his wife away. My boyfriend has never wanted to "take me away," but I think they are operating on different definitions. My boyfriend has not been as sensitive to my husband's feelings as my husband wants, so I know this dynamic is generating this reaction. Still....something about the "not deserving it" comment strikes me as not the right way to handle the request. It provided no solutions as to how we could get to the point where we can enjoy that someday. X_x;

Thoughts?
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:37 AM
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What would rub me the wrong way is him thinking to be a superior 'power'/'official' who is in a legitimate position to judge who deserves what and why. That's not his call to make. He isn't the one 'granting' something here. Because that would mean, he is in charge of you and in some weird way able to decide what your friend should or shouldn't get. Like a parent, in a way. The only thing he is able to control is his position. Does he want that? Why yes, why no, but not basing his decision on what he thinks a third person should get or not.

He isn't answering the problem at hand, he is shifting his focus to the outcome of it. The problem are his hurt feelings and his take on the situation (your friend is trying to take you away). He could say:"This isn't cleared at all, I don't feel comfortable, I don't want to proceed until this situation is solved." But he starts with just feeling hurt and therefore thinks the others owe him to do as he sees fit because he is the one feeling hurt.

On the other hand, no one seems to have taken into consideration that he expressed his discomfort beforehand. Did he voice that this wouldn't sit well with him (you and your friend dating)? Because his reaction seems to say "You didn't look out for me when this started, now I have every right in the world to spoil your fun."

Sit down and talk with each other. Express who is hurt for what reason, who wants what for what reason and lay down some clear boundaries everyone is aware of and able to work with. If the only reason he isn't feeling comfortable right now is the thought of your friend taking you away, then this is the thing you should start with. Talk to him, ask your friend to assure him that this won't happen, if he knew that your husband wasn't comfortable with the situation your friend should appologize for disregarding his feelings (and you as well, if you knew). Make clear that no one is able to decide what others do or won't do, but that everyone can express what they need from the other to feel at ease with the situation.

Your husband is right in asking for things to change that make him feel uncomfortable. But the key he is missing is asking for it, drawing clear personal boundaries starting with his person and needs, not demanding what the others are suppose to do from his point of view and trying to control the other people involved.
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  #3  
Old 01-30-2013, 08:43 AM
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PhilosophicallyLost PhilosophicallyLost is offline
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"You didn't look out for me when this started, now I have every right in the world to spoil your fun."

He definitely would seem to feel this way about E. As far as me renegotiating the marriage with Y, he has judged my actions on that differently. Y told E, "K hurt me too, but I know by her actions that she cares about making things better. I can forgive her largely because of it. I have yet to see the same concern for my hurt from you."

They...were supposed to have worked some of this out, which is why I felt more comfortable broaching the sleep idea again. I guess E didn't uphold his end of the bargain in my husband's eyes. I'm not sure which things specifically hurt my husband, but I've started to write down their agreements. By writing it down, the expectations are crystal clear, and when one is broken we can immediately hold said person accountable to correct it. So far, this has help E stay WAY more on track. (He has ADD, which I wonder sometimes if it contributes to his lack of care to certain details he needs to work on.)

"...if he knew that your husband wasn't comfortable with the situation your friend should appologize for disregarding his feelings (and you as well, if you knew)." I had a part in making my husband uncomfortable, and I addressed it as soon as I was made aware it was a serious concern. My husband seemed to feel less coerced after that. However, my boyfriend, being stubborn, really sucks at apologizing when he doesn't think he's guilty of something. He vehemently believes he has nothing to apologize for since his intention was pure. This pattern of thought prevades in other arguments, and it does leave one feeling not very considered. This is a huge stumbling block for E and I'm trying desperately to get him to understand the cause and effect of his actions on people's feelings, whether they are logical or not. He can apologize for hurting someone without conceding the logic of his position. He's got a lot of family baggage and to him, compromise is an ugly word. For him, it meant he got nothing he wanted and his brother everything. So now he's brought that wonderful perspective to relationships with me and my husband, and I'm beating my head against a brick wall. I'm trying to show him how unhealthy that perspective is in real life.

I am frankly not sure if my words on that subject get through to him or not . . . oi. That's a bit of a side issue, but E's issues in this area are a big contributor to the dynamic between him and my husband.

"But the key he is missing is asking for it" My husband needs to work on this. His communication is pretty lacking.

I am addressing marriage related concerns with my husband. I was very careful to make it about the issues he and I as a unit need to work on, and one of them is communication. Once we get that rolling, I'd like to revisit everyone's train of mind as a group...
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:02 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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I'm with Phy, especially her first paragraph. You could always start with that old Princess Jasmine line -- " I am not a prize to be won." YOU decide who "deserves" your time, no one else.
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  #5  
Old 01-30-2013, 02:11 PM
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Hi Lost,

A few thoughts come to my mind about your issue and I'll work through it bit by bit.

Firstly, how long have you been with your boyfriend? I'm guessing that you're in a mono/poly situation with your hubby?

Secondly, look beyond your husband's words. "He doesn't deserve it" is obviously not his right to declare. But words are just words. What's he really saying? "I think he's treated me badly, possibly you badly, and I really am just not happy about any of this? Stop stretching my limits; I've met you this far." ?

No, of course it isn't 'right' for hubby to flat out say "no". Nobody can tell you "no". What he can say is "I told you I wasn't signing up for that. I cannot reach that point. It is a hard limit for me that is not negotiable as far as I can see. Please decide what action you would like to take now."

We all have our own limitations and for all the personal growth in the world, sometimes we just can't overcome something. If this helps, in our V, we have a 'no sleepovers' guideline. We only request sleepovers in emergencies (i.e. missed last train, too drunk/tired to drive). Planned sleepovers can only be requested after 6 months of dating someone. That way, we are all clear and nobody can be accused of limit-pushing. The first 6 months of a new relationship can be really hard on the existing partner(s), so it's the very best time to show patience, compassion and prove that you can keep your word respectfully. The guideline, for us, isn't in the interests of restriction - it's in the interests of long-term gain. The better equipped we are to deal with new relationships, the more chance they have of succeeding in the long-run.

If you and your boyfriend have been openly involved now for more than 6-12 months, and there are still big issues, obviously there's still work to do and it might be a red flag.

It's not fair to force someone past their limits (you with hubby). It's also not fair to place unwanted restrictions on other people (hubby with you). Then, it comes down to compatibility and priorities.


Quote:
"You didn't look out for me when this started, now I have every right in the world to spoil your fun."
I agree with this. I do not know the background, but after reading what you have said in your two posts, it definitely strikes me that your husband is holding onto some hurt.

Quote:
"K hurt me too, but I know by her actions that she cares about making things better. I can forgive her largely because of it. I have yet to see the same concern for my hurt from you."
Did you and E start out as an affair or something? What is Y hurt about?

Importantly - what do you think of his statement? What steps has E taken to make up for any hurt caused? (*was* hurt caused? did you and E do something wrong?) Has your hubby been guilty of bad behaviour too?


Quote:
They...were supposed to have worked some of this out, which is why I felt more comfortable broaching the sleep idea again.
You need to decide how important this is for you. I can understand if it is important. It's perfectly reasonable if *you* want that for yourself. Are you willing to drop it altogether for your husband, if necessary? Or do you need this option in the long term?

For me, nothing crushes my ability to overcome a problem more than impatience. My GF tried to rush me to "be fine" with her new secondary. As soon as she did that, it fell apart for me. Not only did I resent him, but I started to resent her. Is that what could be happening here?

Quote:
I guess E didn't uphold his end of the bargain in my husband's eyes. I'm not sure which things specifically hurt my husband, but I've started to write down their agreements. By writing it down, the expectations are crystal clear, and when one is broken we can immediately hold said person accountable to correct it. So far, this has help E stay WAY more on track. (He has ADD, which I wonder sometimes if it contributes to his lack of care to certain details he needs to work on.)
This might be hard for you to hear, so I'm going to say it gently and hope that you understand my good intentions. My GF said the same thing to me. At first, I was indignant and resistant... but I realised that she was completely right.

I see that you are trying to knock their heads together and sort them out. I see that you are genuinely trying to help.

However... you are enabling their behaviour by doing the hard work for them. They are free to be lazy emotionally, because they know you'll sort it out for them.

I have ADD and, for sure, written information helps. ADD can cause problems in relationships regarding attention to detail, remembering agreements and conversations, etc. It's also very helpful when a partner suggests things that can help.

But that's the point - suggestion. If you physically do it for them, not only are you taking away their ability to help themselves... but you are also steamrolling them. When I am steamrolled, I feel extremely frustrated and forced - therefore, even more resistant and helpless.

What if they simply do not get on? Or simply do not want to get along? Do they have to? Is there any way that they can exist separately from each other? What steps have each of them taken to improve their relationship? What have they done wrong?

Quote:
...my boyfriend, being stubborn, really sucks at apologizing when he doesn't think he's guilty of something. He vehemently believes he has nothing to apologize for since his intention was pure. This pattern of thought prevades in other arguments, and it does leave one feeling not very considered.... I am frankly not sure if my words on that subject get through to him or not . . . oi. That's a bit of a side issue, but E's issues in this area are a big contributor to the dynamic between him and my husband.
Is it really a bit of a side issue? Or do you think this is a major problem?

From my perspective, it is a key problem.

Saying sorry is essential in relationships. We all fuck up - we're human. Often, we really don't mean to upset anyone. You're right - saying sorry doesn't mean shouldering all the blame - it means "I'm really sorry for my part; I'd like to take responsibility for what I did to add to this situation". In any disagreement, there are usually two people to blame. My GF struggles to apologise, also because of family issues. It's not a small deal for me - it's a big deal. It's something that I will not accept in a partner, in the long term. She's vastly improved over the past 2 years and when she doesn't apologise, I remind her that it's important to. Is it ok that your BF has this problem with apologising? Is that acceptable behaviour? If he knows you'll stay regardless, how is he ever going to change that behaviour?

The fact is - if hubby feels disrespected by E and you're not doing anything about it, he's also being disrespected by you. I know that you're in a horrible position, being in the middle. Everyone has their flaws and some metamours just do not get on. But, from what you've said, I really think this needs some more thought.

Your BF has trouble saying sorry because of his family. Well... does that make it ok, then? It's one thing when our partners conflict and we can see both sides - but what happens when we really know one partner isn't behaving well? How can we expect our other partner to deal with that? Who we bring into our partners' lives is our responsibility. Who we keep in those lives is our responsibility.

Again, it comes down to considering a new perspective. If both of them are at fault, why do they need to get along?

Quote:
"But the key he is missing is asking for it" My husband needs to work on this. His communication is pretty lacking.
That's fair. Your husband isn't an angel then. He needs to hold up his end of the bargain and be very clear about his limits.

** EDIT - I've gone and read through your old threads to get a better understanding. I saw your earlier struggles with your husband, in terms of needs not being met. (I completely understand and relate to this). It does make me wonder one thing.... could E have been what you needed at the time.... the extroverted attention that you needed? Sometimes we are lacking in something and someone just happens to drop in our lap, who can distract us from our problems. Is there anything in that idea that resonates with you?
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Last edited by sparklepop; 01-30-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-30-2013, 03:24 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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When people feel hurt, genuinely, it is something that happens in the moment. You deal with it, find a way to heal, and make all efforts to move on. But it sounds like your husband has not been willing to forgive and let go of the hurt. He is holding onto it and using it against himself and you. As long as he can say he is hurt, he feels justified in playing victim, being stubborn, and/or demanding some form of reparation from you. It is often difficult to let go of our indignation and sense of having been offended when we feel hurt and are wrapped up in blaming someone for that hurt. But the fact is, as long as he refuses to forgive, and hangs on to the idea that he is hurt, there is nothing you can do or say, and nothing your bf does or says, that will ever be enough to make up for it and erase the hurt. He needs to look at that and move on. He is the only one who can help himself not feel hurt, actually. At one point, his hurt feelings may have been an organic reaction that just arose in the moment when things first started, but now he is just indulging in it and choosing to feel hurt. We all do this sometimes.

When you forgive someone, it is basically starting over and saying the slate is clean. You don't keep punishing someone for whatever you associate with the hurt. What your husband is doing is holding it over your head and demanding that you pay for your "crime" by not giving you what you want.

It also appears, from what you stated, that he feels a sense of ownership over you, and your bf is competition trying to oust him from his place as someone who hold possession over you. Instead of going to him with your hand out and asking permission, if I were you, I would assert my autonomy. All couples, whether monogamous or polyamorous, are individuals with autonomy to make their own choices. I would say to him, "Honey, I know this has been hard for you, but I want to have overnight stays with my lover. This is something important to me and if we are going to have a strong foundation in our marriage, you need to deal with your resistance to this. What can we do to make it easier for you? Let's come up with a plan to make this transition, because it is going to happen eventually but I'd rather do it in a way that eases you into it." Something like that.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:00 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Why is just you asking for DH's goodwill? Rather than you and E asking together for something both you and E want?

Quote:
"I know it's something that would make you happier, but I don't think he (my boyfriend) deserves it."
Incomplete communication. What does BF need to do (behavior) to "deserve" it? Not your TIME, but DH's GOODWILL about sharing your time with him?(DH does not own you, he owns himself.)
Quote:
goodwill: Friendly, helpful, or cooperative feelings or attitude.
While that is awkward and unclear communication phrasing ... what I'm getting there is he is willing to give YOU his goodwill. But not E. Is there lack of trust in E and not feeling respected or considered perhaps by E's behaviors? So why does E deserve DH's goodwill here so far? What will change in E behavior so DH can change in his feelings about giving E his goodwill?

Cuz you can go ahead and just sleep over. You own you. But you would get that bit and not get DH's goodwill. Right? You want both -- to sleep over AND have his goodwill too. Well, you are there asking for his goodwill. Where is E? Is he asking? Nope. Does not bode well for DH willing to give him goodwill if the man cannot be bothered to come ask for it.

In this communication DH was much clearer that the above "he doesn't deserve it (my goodwill) because he tells the WHY.

Quote:
Y told E, "K hurt me too, but I know by her actions that she cares about making things better. I can forgive her largely because of it. I have yet to see the same concern for my hurt from you."
Did he give the WHAT and HOW when they made their agreements?

"You hurt me. For you to get back into right relationship with me, you need to DO 1, 2, 3. Those are the things you need to do. Do them, and then I could be willing to give you my goodwill."
Sounds like he did. Because you are writing down the agreements and it seems to help ADHD E meet them. That will go a long way toward E accountability with DH if E can execute their agreements.

(Side note: Why is E not owning this responsibility? Why are you doing E's work? Is the goal that you will get him started in his new habit and he will assume it once he has hang of it? Or are you being overburdened as the hinge person? Could guard against that hinge burn out thing.

And note that DH watching you do E's work for him... that's not a juicy goodwill orange there. E is not being PRESENT again for his end of the deal.)

Could encourage DH to talk to E direct AND hold E accountable to their agreements. But... you came to ask. Not even You and E. Expecting the dude who has no goodwill right now for the other guy to be seeking him out to be doing the patch/repair work and tend to him and call him into account? That's not realistic. It is less work for DH to ignore the guy. And rightly so. It is not DH's want to sleep over. It is not DH's need to have DH goodwill.

It's really easy to get sidetracked with DH presentation of his communication. (And it could use polish -- it's a bit rough just like that... so def work on the communication thing). But to me that feels like a side issue.

But to move this bit forward -- could choose to keep it on the feelings behind the words and address that need first.

You and E want something from DH. His goodwill.

(You + E) ---> DH is the polymath tier we're talking about. How you and E (the couple) communicate with DH. Right now? I don't think it's cool that YOU are doing all the work there and it is you doing the asking. E cannot even be bothered to come ask?

When you make your request, YOU AND E could be clear in your communication to DH.

"DH, we have come to ask you for your goodwill. We'd like to sleep over and be able to do that with you goodwill. So... What has to happen (from which player) for you (DH) to be comfortably willing to share your goodwill with everyone?"

So the NEXT thing can happen -- sleeping over experience that is felt as pleasant for all players in the polyship?

Not really expecting you to answer those "thinking cap" kinds of questions to me. Just trying to give you some help so you can ask yourself and your poly peeps in the "sorting yourselves out" time. Hopefully get this moving forward again.

GL!
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Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-30-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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  #8  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:05 AM
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Helo Helo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosophicallyLost View Post
Still....something about the "not deserving it" comment strikes me as not the right way to handle the request.
Thoughts?
Declare a holmgang and pass out the axes?

Husband doesn't seem very agreeable to the whole poly deal. His comment reads, to me, as "I know this will make you happy but I want to punish him more than I want to make you happy."

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosophicallyLost View Post
"You didn't look out for me when this started, now I have every right in the world to spoil your fun."
Is that a direct Husband quote?

Being hurt is fine but it hardly gives one the right to act like a biznitch towards other people.

Quote:
I was very careful to make it about the issues he and I as a unit need to work on, and one of them is communication
Really? It sounds pretty clear to me; Husband doesn't want you to be poly and is going to pout about it until something gives.

I'm still for the holmgang idea.
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Last edited by Helo; 02-13-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:10 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Forgive me, I have not looked over older posts. But is there a reason why E could not live next door or around the corner? I agree that the men in question have work to do with each other. But sometimes distance eases problems. It's less in the face so to speak.
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