Phy's story - As you like it

hi Phy,

I LOVE to inhale people. Especially my men. But I often compliment people when I notice they smell really nice. They often seem surprised. Which I don't understand. If you're trying to smell nice, and you succeeded and some notices, that's good, right?
:D
 
I know what you mean. I compliment people for great looks or smell as well, but if I like them and know them at least a bit I get close to them and sometimes I invade some private space while doing so. But most of the people who smell good, have been perfectly fine with me doing so :) Huff-stuff *cheers*
 
Visiting the family

And a short update I forgot to mention: We will visit Lin's family tomorrow. As the way is so long, we have get up really early. And I have to drive all the way, as Lin lost his driver license years ago. *sigh* It's the birthday of Lin's mother and we will surprise her, she thinks we will visit next month. I am a bit excited how coffee and cake will go, it will be the first time I am there as 'the married girlfriend' officially. I don't expect them to ask after Sward. I hope the situation won't be too tense, I know that Lin's sisters are a bit insecure concerning the whole topic. We will see how that goes.
 
We are back and still alive :D

No, nothing serious was expected to happen, but it went considerably well. We got up quite early as far as Sward and I are concerned, Lin was so nervous that he hardly slept more than an hour. Sward prepared coffee, lunch-boxes, blankets, sweets, vegetables, the car and the sat nav and nearly everything you can think of as useful for a short trip. He was so nervous. Afraid that something might happen to us, that we may get stuck somewhere, needing to camp on the roadside or whatever you can think of catastrophe-wise.

Except that our windshield wiper didn't work properly and it was that cold that every little dash froze immediately when hitting the front window, what made us leave the motorway at every second motorway station, Lin getting out in the freezing cold, wiping the window with some water ( :) and it was really cold ), we made it in time and had fun.

His family was nice and really surprised and glad to see us. His mother talked about how happy she was that he visited again for three days straight. At least on the official side, they seem to have wrapped their minds around our constellation and the relationship structure. What really surprised me, was that his mother called yesterday to congratulate Sward as well (yes, Valentine's Day is his birthday). Lin said: “You are now part of the 'Lin-family'. You belong to the clan now.” This worked out better than I ever would have imagined.

I got to know Lin's sisters, who I haven't met before and some of his old friends. As we were sleeping in his old room, memories of the time when I visited for the first time came up again and we were really glad that everything worked out that well. I found it especially sweet that Lin told me after the first day there, that he was really happy to think about 'going home' after the weekend again. He has completely exchanged the two homes by now and feels comfortable thinking of our place as his real home.

But the biggest surprise was Sward. Never leave this man alone with some time on his hands … When we came home he had renovated the living room. From the smallest toeboard to a new room divider in form of a little wall next to the sofa. It looked just great. He did a great job. Now all that is left is the kitchen but we need to exchange all the electrical equipment as well, so this will take some months till we got the money for it. The flat looks nice and comfy now :D

I spend yesterday with Sward, went swimming to our spa bath and shopping for his present, cuddled with Lin on the sofa in the evening and almost had a great day, except that Sward and Lin got into a little fight over the kitchen and how things should be handled there. It was mostly a misunderstanding because they got their wires crossed, but I think they will talk again today to settle that.
 
Family and sports

So, life is good, a lot going on and it could be perfect, except that I didn't write one page of my papers for university. Need to catch up on that this week and it's getting me a bit down. Maybe that is the reason why my nights have been a bit restless lately.

For the weekend: As our flat is in the best and most beautiful state it has ever been, Sward decided that he would like to celebrate his birthday with the family. We never did that, because there wasn't enough space and it was just an ugly little flat without anything looking nice, just my stuff piling everywhere and his (dirty) stuff from work right next to it. I don't know if it was the active influence of Lin, his overall, passive presence or just our age that changed the things for the better. But we became more like those people who care for their surroundings.

We arranged everything for thirteen people to visit. That's the maximum we can handle. Our study with our tiny dinner table (4 persons) and the newly build desk (5 persons) was really packed and the small sofa table in the living room (4 persons) took care of the rest. There was a narrow snickleway from the entrance door through the study to the living room and that was all the space that was left. Maybe it gets clearer why most people shake their heads when we tell them that are living in this small flat with three people :rolleyes:

Well, as our family knows how crowded it is, there isn't a problem. And it was really comfy in a way having all the people sitting so close together and chatting. Sward's and my parents already know Lin and obviously like him. They talk to him, ask his opinion on computer related things and like to engage in some small talk as well. The only persons who have never seen him up to now were Sward's sister and her husband. They didn't talk much with each other, but the husband made some jokes concerning my moods and now having two men to deal with that, that made me believe that they were at least OK with our living situation. Don't know if the OK-ness goes beyond that, but we are not in close everyday contact, therefore this wouldn't have been much of a problem one way or the other.

Something really promising came up that evening too. My mother thought about a way to get Lin a job in one of the companies she is involved with. We don't know if this will work out, but it is a prospect for now. I was really delighted by the fact that Lin talked to my parents for hours and that they seem to have fun. My father definitely likes Lin and seems to have included him completely in the 'Sward and I circle' when talking about future events (like moving into a new flat when I finish my studies and children are in the picture). So promising, maybe they will take the news not as bad as I anticipated when we finally tell them.

For the everyday stuff: My tutoring job is working out really well. The children are lovely. A bit complicated, but nothing out of the ordinary. It was the right choice to choose such a job and nothing run-of-the-mill like. It's a good practice for later and I can use the lessons I give there to be imputed for my practical phases.

And I started martial arts again. I did that for a long time when I was a teenager and really missed it for years now. After I worked on my form in the gym for a while now, I felt ready to try it again. Biggest fear was not surviving the warm up, but I succeeded :D That's why I felt really great after my first lesson after roughly ten years. Will definitely keep at it. I have become really slow and forgot most of the basics, but they are returning fast. Can't wait for Thursday, will visit the next lesson that evening.
 
Some interesting days just passed us and I found some new things to mention on here.

My aunt and my mothers' birthdays are right after the other. Therefore we spend Monday evening with my aunt and the majority of our relatives and went out for dinner on Tuesday with my mother and our nuclear family here. And I realized that something was bugging me. I was kind of looking forward to those events and at the same time, not so much. I started to look into the problem and I found the root of my uneasiness.

Lin wouldn't be part of it. I was really happy when my sister, who is going to marry her long time partner in April, invited Lin to be there when the family will meet for dinner after the ceremony. It felt good to have him included even though nothing is official right now. But obviously I couldn't drag him along to meet my relatives at the party of my aunt. And as my aunt is going through some hard times right now (death of her husband last year, a possible divorce of her son right now) I expected the evening to be tense and filled with broody and unpleasant talks. The same with the birthday of my mother, she invited 'the family' for dinner and this didn't include Lin as well. I was kind of unhappy with that.

As things turned out, I expected too much negativity to come our way. On Monday the mood was quite light, despite the tensed relationship of my cousin and his wife (they came together even) and my aunt was just mainly stressed by all the preparations and such. What surprised me a bit was my mother. When sitting next to her and talking to some of my distant relatives about some trifles, she suddenly glanced at me and asked: “By the way, I thought about it, did I make a faux pas by not inviting Lin to my birthday dinner tomorrow? I mean how much is he part of the family … kind of...?” There she paused and I as well. How should I have answered?

I decided that this wasn't the right place to discuss our relationship further and replied jokingly: “Ah well, you see, we didn't officially adopt him yet, you didn't make a fault, we still need to get the papers to wrap things up properly.” This adoption thing was first brought up by my mother, who likes to refer to Lin as 'Sward's and my little one', some kind of child we picked up and moved in. She smiled as well and replied: “Well, ok, if things are like that, I will invite him next year.” I smiled and nodded, as well as Sward who was sitting next to me.

Sward later told me that she seemed to have expected some kind of answer there and I think I agree. She was clearly asking for the 'status' of our relationship. Maybe I should soon talk to herabout it. During dinner on Tuesday, my soon to be brother in law was showered by the waitress with a glass of white wine and my mother instantly laughed and told me to tell Lin that if he had been there, he would have been the one to get wet, as he is the 'newest one' to the family. I cannot deny that all that makes me smile and a bit tingly with anticipation. How things will be received when we finally tell them?

*sigh* I am too impatient sometimes.
 
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Intimacy

Not much happening right now, life is quiet and good :) But as a matter of fact, even though everything got so comfy and such, I still have my little personal issues from time to time.

As I have been really busy with nearly everything, engaged in sports to the point of getting so many sore muscles that I could hardly move (again) and due to 'those days of the month' the intimacy between Sward, Lin and I was kind of reduced to zero regarding the core part. And I really missed that and got a bit frustrated lately. I finally managed to get rid of that state of affairs today and spent some time with Lin and later with Sward. Felt really great afterwards :eek:

But both times, first when I came back to Sward to 'invite' him to spend some time with me in the bedroom and later when I returned and woke up Lin, I noticed that I still feel uncomfortable if I think about the fact that both of them probably knew that I just had been with the other. I don't really know why I think of that as so unnerving and why I am so insecure about that.

When I went to wake Lin up he asked “And? What did you do?” He didn't imply anything there, it was just a normal question about nothing specific but my mind worked itself up and I thought about the right thing to answer. Way too long. After some seconds he looked at me and told me that this was so typically me, why I couldn't just leave out the parts that I don't want to talk about and tell him about the rest that went on during that time. Well, except the fact that the TV has been on there wasn't some kind of 'rest' to talk about from my perspective. And as you can imagine by now, I am the worst liar you have ever met or will ever meet … I never thought to come up with something innocuous.

So, why is this still a problem for me? Why do I still feel like I could hurt them when I tell them directly that I have an intimate relationship with the other? Both of them know, none of them seem to have a real problem with that any longer, why do I?
 
I wish I had an answer, Phy, because I have pretty much the same question! I know part of my reluctance at the moment is being hundreds of miles away from TGIB. I feel bad mentioning sexy time with MC because TGIB and I can't have that right now. TGIB has already told me he isn't bothered by knowing that I was with MC (neither want details about the other, so that's fine) but I'M still bothered when it comes up! (In a "So what'd you do last night?" kind of way. I'm a horrible liar too, because I never try to lie!) I'm hoping this changes once we're all in the same town.

MC pretty much always knows when I have phone or internet play time with TGIB, and I'm not super-comfortable about that either. It doesn't bother him- he even teases me about it so I KNOW he's comfortable with the idea- but it bothers me. Maybe there's a part of me I wasn't previously aware of that just wants a little more privacy with each of my guys than I currently have. I don't even know if the level of privacy I may want is reasonable or doable, and I would suspect that if it's similar for you everyone living together is not going to help that level of privacy happen. Good luck trying to figure it out!
 
Phy,

If it bothers you to have back to back sexual encounters why do you do it?? Feeling of fairness......unsatisfied sexually, boredom, ????
 
I feel bad mentioning sexy time with MC because TGIB and I can't have that right now.

Well, I know that situation, Lin and I were facing it when we were still apart and I wouldn't want to have that back ever, because we were severely bothered by it. It was hell sitting in front of the PC and not be able to touch, I am horrible with LDRs.

Maybe there's a part of me I wasn't previously aware of that just wants a little more privacy with each of my guys than I currently have.

I don't think it is the level of privacy in my case. The main reason why I am uncomfortable with the general situation is that I separate the two relationships strictly. Especially in that regard, I don't want them to mingle. The first root for my insecurity may be that I don't like talking about it because I want to 'protect' the intimacy I have with each by not talking about it. Just like I wouldn't talk about my feelings for the respective other with one of them. I am not good at voicing this either.

If it bothers you to have back to back sexual encounters why do you do it??

I have no idea what those are, but I guess it somehow describes what I was talking about. What is 'back to back' in this context?


Feeling of fairness......unsatisfied sexually, boredom, ????

First of all: Punctuation marks are no pack animals.

Secondly: I was a bit surprised by your answer to put it nicely. Especially because of the last point. My first reaction when I get the feeling that someone is way off with guessing or a reaction to something I said or wrote is checking if I encountered some language boundaries and said something the wrong way. Maybe it was my post that gave off the vibe that I am bored and that I would sleep with someone out of boredom. As the sole idea kind of offended me I will say something to that first.

If this comment was due to me saying 'life is quiet and good, … everything got so comfy and such' – no, I didn't mean that I got so lazy and am indulging myself so much in the situation that I don't have something different to do than sleeping with my men. It implies that I would 'use' them to counter my tendency to abandon myself in idleness or something along those lines. Did you ever sleep with someone because of that reason or how would you come up with such an idea, dinged?

Yes, I have been unsatisfied sexually during the latest days, nearly even weeks and I was really happy when things changed so that I could pursue my needs again. But those aren't mine alone, I am in a relationship with those two. Is there something more natural than wanting to be together and intimate with the ones you love? If that 'back to back' meant sleeping with each of them, well, of course I would want that after such a time.

There are times I long for both of them and especially after such a period in our relationship, I nearly naturally crave for that kind of contact. Is that so strange to your mind? Even though you never have been in love with more than one, you should be able to reconstruct the basic feelings of that situation if you think about a 'normal' monogamous relationship. So why do I sleep with both of them? Because I long for them and two of the three of us (meaning Lin and I) wouldn't be comfortable with threesome settings.

Lastly: your first suggestion ... wasn't that far off, even though I got the feeling you are hinting in a different direction. No, I am not sleeping with each of them because I feel that it is fair to do so. Sometimes I want one, sometimes the other, sometimes both. I never do it out of obligation, if I long for Sward I will go be with him without having sex with Lin right afterwards if I don't feel like that. I get goosebumps just thinking about it, to be honest.

But you hit a point there. I think that I am still, in a strange way, in my mono-mindset about things that can be done or shouldn't be done. Even though they tell me that they aren't having problems any longer, because of 1) I know that there have been some in the beginning with this special topic and 2) I personally still know that it is hurtful if a partner sleeps and loves another. That is what I grew up with and even though I know that 1) has changed, I haven't adapted to a change of 2) as well. There is still a part of me that isn't able to think in 'poly-structures' and backs off if a situation comes up where I would have to fear (according to the old rules) overstepping a line and doing something 'not fair' to my love(s). I experienced 'the state of mind of a polyamorous person' for some years, most of them without accepting it, only roughly a year facing it and coming to terms with this new state of mind. I just seem to still have some processing to do and to make myself at home with the way I am and things are nowadays.

Therefore, even though my first reaction to your comment were some puckered brows, thanks for your comment and get me thinking, dinged :) Seems like I have quite some part of the way in front of me.
 
First, sorry wasn't my intention to upset you.

In the phrase back to back I was thinking of encounters close together time wise. You have sex with one ...enjoy the moment, sleep a little, then get up, grab a snack, hydrate, check phone and email and go find the other. This what I would consider back to back. Having sex with one in the morning and the other in the evening I wouldn't see as back to back. With in a short period of time from leaving one and starting with another.


Again wasn't implying anyone was a pack animal just wondered why or how if its bring up these feelings what greater feeling is over riding them. I was just thinking out loud. And I'm sure I've thought of sex as time filler....once in a blackout I know I suggested it :D..it was fun too.

Could I do what you do ....doubt it ....1) physiology and 2) I tend leave it all there emotional, ....mind and body. Switching gears ..starting over would be very difficult for me.
 
First, sorry wasn't my intention to upset you.

No harm done, it got me thinking which was actually good to encounter the root of the possible problem.

And I'm sure I've thought of sex as time filler....once in a blackout I know I suggested it :D..it was fun too.

Could I do what you do ....doubt it ....1) physiology and 2) I tend leave it all there emotional, ....mind and body. Switching gears ..starting over would be very difficult for me.

That would be something I could hardly do, if I think about it. It would be totally against my nature or style. I am in the mood or I am not, but getting in the mood when or even because I am bored and lazy ... no, I don't think that will ever happen.

Maybe you can think of it as some kind of additional gear already put on. It's not always the case but even if I am emotionally totally drained by the 'first encounter', there are still those emotions that can't be satisfied by sleeping with the respective other. It's the same kind of mechanism that prevents me from satisfying the need for one by being with the other. If I long for Lin, Sward can be as attentive and sweet and lovely and whatnot, this won't go away because of him trying to fill that void.

It was a huge problem when we were still separated and Lin was far away. Sometimes I stayed up longer just to prevent lying next to Sward as I knew that he wouldn't be the one I was longing for. That's why I think of comments stating that I will be well off in any situation as there is always one of my loves there to tend to me to be kind of wrong. This just won't do.

But I digress. What I wanted to say: It doesn't feel like switching gears and starting all over. At times like yesterday both urges are there simultaneously, if I satisfy one, there is still the one that was left alone during that time. And this one won't go away by itself.
 
When you stayed up late to avoid contact with your husband because you longed for Lin ...could this be sorta the opposite of that. Primary or most pressing urge satisfied then work to complete the others?
 
The two aren't always there simultaneously. I just had to smile because I have had a hard time already explaining the way my mind and feelings work to Sward and Lin. But I will try again.

Basically, there are three stages of the need for physical expressions of my feelings: exclusively Sward, exclusively Lin, both of them at the same time. Each relationship has it's own dynamic and pace and it isn't the case that when I am in the mood for one I am automatically in the mood for the other as well. Therefore there was no other urge to satisfy during those nights I stayed awake to wait for my feelings to calm down. The possibility of something in the direction of Sward developing afterwards was possible, but not a must.

There is no primary urge that is more pressing than the other(s) in the case of me longing for both. If I am in that kind of state, first come, first served. :p It's not all the same for me on the one hand, but on the other … it is. As soon as I really get things started with one, the other urge is in some kind of waiting position, without me still noticing. I am always totally concentrated on my current partner, it never happened that I unconsciously thought of the other, but as soon as one side of the urge has been satisfied, the other comes knocking at my door. I am not calm afterwards, there is still something I want. This wouldn't be the case if it had been directed towards one of them right from the start.

Geez, this sounds so technical and strange … I hope it makes sense. *scratches head*
 
The two aren't always there simultaneously. *


What two ?

How did you decide which one you wanted to be with first ?... in the example you gave. that's what I meant by primary urge.


I'm confused .."there is no primary urge that is more pressing than the other in the case of me longing for both." You said while longing for lin ...you avoided being intimate with Sward because he wouldn't be able to satisfy that longing. In that specific example wouldn't that be the primary urge?

Does the schedule ever conflict with your urges? And what about their urges...do they every conflict with yours and the schedule?
 
How did you decide which one you wanted to be with first ?... in the example you gave. that's what I meant by primary urge.

I'm confused .."there is no primary urge that is more pressing than the other in the case of me longing for both." You said while longing for lin ...you avoided being intimate with Sward because he wouldn't be able to satisfy that longing. In that specific example wouldn't that be the primary urge?

DH, I think I understand Phy on this. Phy, correct me if I'm wrong on anything. First of all, the most important thing to get out of the way is when Phy said "Punctuation marks are no pack animals" in her response to you, DH, she was referring to how you used four question marks in a row! LOL

Okay, on to other things. Phy said:
The two aren't always there simultaneously...

Basically, there are three stages of the need for physical expressions of my feelings: exclusively Sward, exclusively Lin, both of them at the same time. Each relationship has it's own dynamic and pace and it isn't the case that when I am in the mood for one I am automatically in the mood for the other as well. Therefore there was no other urge to satisfy during those nights I stayed awake to wait for my feelings to calm down. The possibility of something in the direction of Sward developing afterwards was possible, but not a must.

There is no primary urge that is more pressing than the other(s) in the case of me longing for both. If I am in that kind of state, first come, first served. :p It's not all the same for me on the one hand, but on the other … it is. As soon as I really get things started with one, the other urge is in some kind of waiting position, without me still noticing.

OK, so sometimes Phy feels a sexual urge for Sward only, sometimes for Lin only, and sometimes for both of them. At those times when she only feels it for one of them, she knows the other will not satisfy that longing, so she avoids being with the one she doesn't feel an urge for. During those times when she desires both of them, it's "first come, first served," "no primary urge," which I take to mean that she doesn't have a preference but availability and circumstance play a part in which one of them she is with first. Maybe it's just not a big deal for her to decide who to be with first, when she wants both of them. It's probably something spontaneous.

Then, whomever she is with at any given time, she is focused and totally with him, so she's not thinking about her urge for one when she is with the other. After being with one of them, the urge for the other will rise up in her if it's one of those times she started out wanting both of them. Or, if she only wanted to be with one from the start, a new urge for the other might suddenly happen, or might not.

In the post where Phy said she felt uncomfortable with one of them knowing she's just been with the other and you, Dinged, said "if it feels bad why do it back to back?" meaning "if it feels bad, why be with one right after you've been with another?" I didn't get the sense that she necessarily felt bad about it, but that she noticed a hesitation to share with Lin any details about her time with Sward, and a sense that she didn't want to hurt anyone by talking about it, and she was questioning why it made her a bit uncomfortable.


So, Phy, I think when you realized that that monogamy still influences you, that is a good thing to be aware of. But it is also a perfectly reasonable and valid choice to manage your two relationships separately, and to respect the intimacy and heartfelt things you share with each of them separately. Just because you are in love and involved with two men who live with you, does not mean that each of them have to have access to all your private thoughts and moments with the other.
 
*sigh* Way to go; you just got right to each point I was trying to make. I should let you explain and clear any further misunderstandings there may be :D
 
In a nut shell you didn't or don't get uncomfortable having back to back sexual encounters its the talking about the previous encounter that's uncomfortable. Right .

My confusion was centered around these two sentences....

Lastly: your first suggestion ... wasn't that far off, even though I got the feeling you are hinting in a different direction.

But you hit a point there. I think that I am still, in a strange way, in my mono-mindset about things that can be done or shouldn't be done.


I wasn't far off ...by accident ?

Has this all morphed form the time you started thinking and talking about it or just came into focus?
 
Well, I hope we get to the root of our misunderstanding finally :rolleyes:.

In a nut shell you didn't or don't get uncomfortable having back to back sexual encounters its the talking about the previous encounter that's uncomfortable. Right .

Right, that was what I was talking about.

I wasn't far off ...by accident ?

Has this all morphed form the time you started thinking and talking about it or just came into focus?

The moment you suggested something that felt to be off point I was able to corner the root of my discomfort with what you said and the general situation at hand. What I understood your comment meant was expressed in this post:

Lastly: your first suggestion ... wasn't that far off, even though I got the feeling you are hinting in a different direction. No, I am not sleeping with each of them because I feel that it is fair to do so.
[...]
But you hit a point there. I think that I am still, in a strange way, in my mono-mindset about things that can be done or shouldn't be done.
[...]
2) I personally still know that it is hurtful if a partner sleeps and loves another. That is what I grew up with and even though I know that 1) has changed, I haven't adapted to a change of 2) as well. There is still a part of me that isn't able to think in 'poly-structures' and backs off if a situation comes up where I would have to fear (according to the old rules) overstepping a line and doing something 'not fair' to my love(s).

I know that this isn't the case concerning Sward and Lin, they don't feel that way, but as I am always the one 'on the other side' of everything, I am not the receiver, I am the one doing and not the one experiencing it, therefore I can't comprehend how they feel and still assume that they have to see things like I was used to see them back then.

It's one of my major faults: I always assume what others may think based on my way of thinking, my feelings in that situation and so on. I know that this is the normal process of empathy, but I tend to be unable to imagine other possible ways of coping and experiencing a situation and I always assume that I am right ^.^ Therefore there tends to be only 'my truth' and I can't accept that others may feel differently if I am convinced that my way of receiving things is the only 'reasonable' one. That's the main reason for the 'mono-mindset' when I think about reactions, thoughts and feelings of my two men.

That's why I think it is reasonable to say that the problem has been always there and may only really dissolve if I would ever be in the situation to experience what it feels like to have a metamour and experiencing 'sharing' a partner with someone. Did I ever mention that I tend to be stubborn as a mule with convictions once embraced? It's a real hassle from time to time with my mind.

The main reason for this confusion may be the nature of our relationship. We mingled mono and poly structures, there are many old things that are still true and there are many new things that are as well. Some seem contradictory, some exists peacefully next to each other. Problem is finding and eliminating the ones that are part of the monogamous-till-death-do-part-us-myth, that in a way never have been appliable to our relationship, which weren't detected by us because they didn't have any points in our everyday life they contradicted themself with. This changed the moment poly entered the picture. We are still in the process of figuring out, what our new 'truths' concerning relationships and the way to handle everyday life is. We will see where we are lead to and what we will discover.

Did this answer the question or are there new points I just made unnecessary complicated? :confused: I have to go right now, I will check in again later to confuse you even more :D
 
I think you're right about the added complexity of co mingling of relationship styles and the tendency to second guess how everyone "must " be feeling or thinking from years of societal programing ....jokes about sloppy seconds and the like.

I don't however think that its a given that by you being second in line in a similar situation would automatically dissolve the problem. It could reenforce your opinion or belief. You may hate it and never be OK with it. Which is fine. And this would goes to your point about how you see things...your truth.
 
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