Letting Go of Attachment and Expectation

LoveBunny

Active member
Though I had full-blown poly relationships when I was in my twenties, after 15 years of monogamy with my husband, this summer I fell hardcore for a woman. She admitted she had problems being emotionally vulnerable and wasn’t “good at relationships.” In return, I confessed that I was no good at casual sex, I get deeply attached. We are also at different stages of life: she’s in her late 20’s, I’m early 40’s. Of course, we ignored these red flags and plunged right in.

At first, my husband was very upset, and my marriage nearly imploded, but luckily, we worked on strengthening our marriage, and the amazing man I married came around to accepting me having a female lover--he’d always known I was bi and struggled with monogamy. However, right about the time hubby stopped threatening to leave me, my lover began to pull away. She said it wasn’t me, she was issues with work/her 2 male lovers/family. I tried to be patient, but I was very attached, and I missed her intensity. The more I pushed, the more she started telling me she “couldn’t give me what I demanded” and that I needed to lower my expectations. I had been implicit from the beginning that I didn’t want to be just a fuckbuddy, and she insisted I wasn’t, but her idea of what a relationship entails is quite more casual than mine. I wanted more time and energy, and she wanted more space and less responsibility. During the last few weeks, she just kept blowing me off, so I broke up with her, as I was feeling hurt, anxious, and rejected by her. She and I were together 5 months total, but weren’t intimate during the last two months of that, as we were having trouble working things out and didn't want to cheapen our connection.

I haven’t seen her in five weeks, haven’t communicated in more than three. Our last few text exchanges were not pretty, lots of blame flying around. I’ve been wondering if and how I could possibly salvage the situation. She’s the first person who has made me feel this way since my husband, and I feel like we have a lot to teach each other. I’ve been reading about zen and relationships and letting go of attachment, trying to figure out if I can loosen up and just be cool and accept whatever she offers me, even, at this point, if its just platonic friendship.

What I’d like from you folks, specifically, is twofold: First, I’m looking for tips on letting go, on how to not be attached to the outcome if I approach her again. Also, I’m wondering how to go about contacting her, what to say, how to open the door that’s currently closed between us. She isn’t very good with emotions, which is where I live, and I’m not so good at acting like everything’s fine when that’s not how I feel. Perhaps I should just move on and try to find a woman more emotionally compatible, but that’s easier said than done. I really, really dug her. Any advice greatly appreciated.
 
It's been 20 years since my gf and I broke up. My love hasn't faded. She has a mono life with her wife and is very happy and secure in it.

A couple of years ago I contacted her, because not having her in my life has never stopped hurting.

What makes it possible for us to communicate is my acceptance. It does take a little mental gymnastics if you arent there-to get mind and actions in alignment. But it can be done.

What I do is love HER.
THat means loving her where SHE wants to be (not with me), loving her doing what she wants to do (again not with me).
It means not asking her for more than she can give. In this case, thats a few texts every few months and a written reply to any letter I mail.

Loving her means helping to promote whatever it is that makes her life wonderful TO HER and whatever little things she asks of me that help her be the best version of herself.

It does not mean asking her for the relationship I want. Because I already know its not what sshe wants (loving myself means getting my relationship needs met from someone who DOES want that type of relationship).

It does not mean telling her "i love you" frequently-that makes her uncomfortable. I can think it but BEING loving to her means keeping the thought to myself.

It does mean asking (sincerely) after the welfare of her family and pointedly and purposefully NOT creating havoc in her current relationships.

It means not getting all up in arms if I dont hear from her for a few months-but still sending a "Hope your bday is fantastic" message through the silence.

Bottomline, it meant reminding myself, daily for many years, until it became habit, that loving her meant giving her what she needed (which was distance and space from me with no requests for more in return that what I would deem an acquaintanceship).

In no way does this mean being a doormat. I have romantic needs, but she can't meet them. She doesn't try to act like what she gives me should fulfil the role of a life partner. She acknowledges that it is nothing of the sort and she fully expects me to get my needs taken care of. She asks after my life partners with care and concern.

Sometimes a specific type of relationship would be unhealthy to one or more people because of their differences. Thats ok. If you love them, you foster them finding the life that is healthy FOR THEM. You don't try to alter them into being in that type of relationship with you.

I wish you great luck. My life regained a beautiful North star when she and I began communicating again. Its been wonderful to get to know her again-as the person she is today. I would die for her, and she knows it. Though she can't fully understand it. But she appreciates that I don't have expectations of her based on the fact that I love her so deeply.
 
@ LoveBunny,
I read your OP with interest and was working out how to answer it, but LovingRadiance seems to have said just about everything that needs to be said.
To put it in a nutshell, Love isn't demanding - it's giving. And giving what isn't appreciated isn't comfortable (or healthy) for either of you.
To maintain a loving [NOT = sexual] friendship after a sexual relationship has come to its end is a rare and beautiful gift.
I wish you all the best.
 
Interestingly to me - this really fits with an ongoing conversation MrS and I have been having (we both have an affinity for secular buddhism type concepts) and a recent lecture I attended on "Compassion Meditation Training for the Promotion of Emotional and Physiological Resilience and Well-Being" . The presenter and his research team are looking at taking lessons from Tibetan Buddhist compassion meditation and developing a secular version called Cognitive-Based Compassion Training which can be taught in 6-8 weeks. Sounds like this could be right up your alley!

If I remember correctly (my copy of the presentation slides is currently trapped in my lost luggage in some airport) the first part has to do with viewing the world as it really is - and this has a lot to do with attachment (which is what you are asking about) - the focus is on trying to decrease attachment to the people/places/things that you like, trying to stop avoiding the people/places/things that you dislike, and trying to stop ignoring the people/places/things that you are indifferent to.

The second part (obviously the first part is something that you work on continuously) has to do with practicing consciously looking at people with intense empathy and compassion - the people you like, the people you are indifferent to, and, finally, the people that you dislike.

I don't have the specifics of how the training is done - most of the links I find are about the research team and the research being done. Hopefully there is more to come!

JaneQ
 
Amazing answers, you guys. LovingRadience, that brought tears to my eyes. That is the person I want to be, but I'm so far from there right now.
 
Using the Buddhist reference, grab a book or two by Pema Chodron. I found "When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times".

One of the keys she brings up is that wherever you are today is a great place to begin! It's ok that you aren't yet where you want to be. That means you have something to work towards!

Start small with one detail and when you have that mastered, work on another.

I didn't get to where I am with her suddenly today, it took years. But thats the joy of personal growth! You can become the person you want to be! You just have to pick a place to start at. :)
 
Can you say "12-steps"?

No, this is not snark, nor is it non-sequitir.

This conversation reads exactly like an AA meeting.

"dear higher power, grant me the serenity [...] etc."
 
What LovingRadiance said.

NovemberRain, a member here, has a great method for handling breakups. She does not talk or communicate in any way with the other person for a full 40 days. (This is true if you are the one who initiated the break up or not.)

I tried it with a recent break up of mine and it helped immensely. There is nothing like time to get one's head on straight and start accepting reality.

Especially if there is blaming going on between the two of you, stop communicating with each other now. The less you say to each other the less you will have to regret later on. Doing this may make LR's scenario of a lifelong connection, even if not what you wanted, possible.

I dislike the idea of letting go of attachments. That part of Buddhist thought bugs me, as well as what I perceive to be disdain for the world. A major reason I am pagan is that many pagan paths love and appreciate the world rather than seek to escape or transcend it. Anyhoo, off topic and your mileage will vary obviously!

One thing that works better for me, at least right now, is to frame relationships (past and present) as what I learned, or can learn. You learned that your marriage can survive something truly threatening and that your husband is willing to work things out with you. That is awesome! Acknowledge the joy in that, even as you grieve the end of your relationship with your girlfriend. Your relationship with her allowed both you and your husband to grow in some unexpected, painful, but powerful ways.

And you learned that when people tell you who they are, what they really want, what they fear - believe them. Believe them especially if their actions match their words. (It is our actions that truly show who we are but words are important clues not to be devalued.) I don't mean to finger waggle 'You should have known!' - that is not my intent. Sometimes one has to zip right past the huge red flag in order to really get why that flag is a-waving. Goddess knows, I've done it enough.

I wish you the best.
 
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I dislike the idea of letting go of attachments. That part of Buddhist thought bugs me, as well as what I perceive to be disdain for the world. A major reason I am pagan is that many pagan paths love and appreciate the world rather than seek to escape or transcend it. Anyhoo, off topic and your mileage will vary obviously!

I think this line of conversation is at least partially "on topic" since the OP was asking about how not to get attached to outcomes.

I also struggle with the idea that of "letting go of attachments" is a positive thing, but if I shift my perspective a little it goes something like this: We are often "attached" to the "idea" of a person or concept and the "role" that they play in our relationship to them. By "letting go" of our "attachment" to a person AS our friend, or AS our lover we allow ourselves to really SEE someone for THEMSELVES - the whole person - and then appreciate them in a more encompassing way, all of their aspects. We can then take this new-found "global appreciation" and turn it to the REST of the world - the people we don't like or are indifferent to ALSO provide us with opportunities to grow and learn - which we often miss out on if we are focused on the objects of our "attachment". So rather than cultivating a "disdain for the world" we can try to cultivate an "appreciation for the world", which includes ALL of it, not just the slivers and aspects (of the world, of people) that we happen to LIKE.

********

In the book I am reading (Jitterbug Perfume, by Tom Robbins) two of the characters have a conversation about the Buddhist take on desire (which to me is an aspect of attachment - we don't tend to desire things that we have no attachment to - whether it be outcomes, relationships, sexual experiences, objects):

Alobar: "Here they teach that much of existence amounts only to misery; that misery is caused by desire; therefore, if desire is eliminated, then misery will be eliminated...If a person forswears pleasure in order to avoid misery, what has he gained?

...If desire causes suffering, it may be because we do not desire wisely, or that we are inexpert at obtaining what we desire....why not get better at fulfilling desire?...I don't want salvation, I want life, all of life, the miserable as well as the superb." (and so on, in that vein)

Kudra: "Look at it this way. The word desire suggests that there is something we do not have. If we have everything already, then there can be no desire, for there is nothing left to want. I think that what the Buddha may have been trying to tell us is that we have it all, each of us, all the time; therefore, desire is simply unnecessary. To eliminate the agitation and disappointment of desire, we need but awaken to the fact that we have everything we want and need right now."

***********

Again, from my perspective - when we are attached to someone or something, when we desire it, what I think that we are really attached to/ what we really desire is the "happiness" (or joy or fulfillment) that we feel having that person/relationship/thing will "give" us, or "make" us feel. BUT - no person/outcome/object can "make" us happy - that has to come from inside of us.

Whew...well THAT got long...I'll stop now.

JaneQ
 
I’m looking for tips on letting go, on how to not be attached to the outcome if I approach her again.

How about accepting that on the

independent <--> interdependent <--> dependent

spectrum you both live at different places? If 1 is very independent and 10 is dependent and liking to be together LOTS? A 5 person and a 7 person may be able to compromise and bridge the spectrum gap. A 2 person and a 9 person may find that the spectrum gap is just too honkin' big to bridge.

Nobody's fault they are wired how they are but could ACCEPT this about their personalities and stop trying to square peg/round hole.

How about letting more time pass? To fade down the volume of the hurt of the old thing (romance) before trying to begin a new thing there? (friendship?)

Also, I’m wondering how to go about contacting her, what to say, how to open the door that’s currently closed between us. She isn’t very good with emotions, which is where I live, and I’m not so good at acting like everything’s fine when that’s not how I feel.

Depends on what you seek when you contact her.

  • What is it you want? To just say goodbye better than the blowing up ugly texts? Get a better closure than that?
  • To start the romance again?
  • To be friends?

You are not clear on what it is you seek. Could sit with that.

"Letting go of attachment" to me is accepting that life is lived as journey and things are not static in a life. Things change over time. Even standing stock still -- we are on a planet that moves many miles around the sun. We grow, age, we change, etc. Our relationships change too. I think every religion copes with "how to be weathering changes" in it's own style.

8 fold path for the buddhists, "wheel of the year" for pagans that follow that style, ecclesiastes 3:1 for those who follow the bible. Whatever the style -- it is there. Change happens. I do not know what your spiritual practices might be, but this could be a good time to visit with them. Be it talking a walk in the woods or reading sacred text, or painting or whatever it is you do to tend to your spiritual health. You took a ding in that bucket. You could make time to mend.

Thing changed for you here in this relationship. Could just let that be ok. You got to have an Experience, now YOU are changed too inside. Now at THIS point in time is a new experience -- the time of breaking up ness. Time will pass. You will change again. Then it will be the New Time of Something Else.

You will be ok.

Perhaps I should just move on and try to find a woman more emotionally compatible, but that’s easier said than done. I really, really dug her. Any advice greatly appreciated.

Welcome to dating. Not every dating partner will be a runner, not every runner will be long haul. It's part of the business of dating. I mean that kindly, but firmly. :eek:

The only way NOT to feel bummed out or disappointed if a dating partner isn't a runner after all? Don't date so you don't have to deal with the inherent "dating risks" to dating and sorting out who the compatible ones are.

Rather than plunge into dating a new person, you could just sit back a bit and take a time out to finish healing from this break up. THEN start dating again if that is what you wish. Again, things keep on changing. You will change along with it. You will be ok.

Galagirl
 
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I don't have much in the way of self-help advice, but I can give you my opinions. :)

BoringGuy is going to love this cliche. Ready, BG? ;)

Everything happens for a reason.

Yep, I believe that.

Whether it's down to fate, or whether it's down to putting a positive spin on an event in order to get something from it, it doesn't matter. Every experience can teach you something, open a door, or put a change into motion.

Not all relationships stick. Relationships begin because of chemistry - literally, a chemical reaction. "They make me feel good".

Relationships end because of some sort of incompatibility. You have very clearly and honestly outlined a severe incompatibility between the two of you.

I would like to give you advice from your ex's perspective. With the exception of my GF, I am extremely non-committal with poly partners. As soon as they start to push, I pull back twice as far. The guilt causes me to hide away, avoid them, 'fob them off'.... which, of course, makes everything twenty times worse. She was very clear with you from the beginning and you were very clear with her.

Since it's only been 5 weeks, I really do think you're at great risk of continuing your pattern. I broke up with my last two secondary girlfriends because they needed more than I could offer. Instead of giving me space, they both continued to ask to chat online, on the phone or meet up, as friends. It was the last thing I wanted. If I'd had a 5 month relationship that made me feel claustrophobic, I'd probably need around the same amount of time before I could consider opening up the friendship arena in any serious way. I might actually need much longer. At minimum, I'd need about 3 months.

Of course, it's unbearably difficult for you too, because you're still left wanting more from her - just the way you were in your relationship. You're both still in your original pattern and that's to be expected, to be honest.

If it were me? I'd write an email. I'd save it, sleep on it, then read it again in the morning. This will be a cathartic exercise. Then, when you're happy with it, send it. I'd talk about how important she was to you, what you like about her as a person, what you understand and take responsibility for in terms of your breakup, how you regret that things got heated, but know that this happens. If it were me, I'd let her know that you never burn bridges and that your door is always open. I wouldn't even necessarily say "I'd love to be friends" - this might even be too much for her, if she's felt claustrophobic. Saying that a 'door is open' is far less intimidating. Once you've said everything openly and honestly, try to move on with your life and don't contact her again. If your friendship is valuable - if it's worthwhile enough, if it's going to be beneficial for both of you - you two will become friends again. But give it time. 5 weeks is not enough time to shake off the romantic attachment and previous cycle.
 
"The door is always open" is a common phrase in my life. Its one reason I am friends with every ex I have. Because I did allow them space but always with a door open policy.
Especially for someone who needs the space that gift can be HUGE. very few people give it.
 
Hahah yeah i love that " everything happens for a reason". My mother was a huge fan of that and other glass-half-full-isms until she found out she had stage 4 colon cancer and died. But yeah i can laugh about it now. Got any more where that came from?
 
Hahah yeah i love that " everything happens for a reason". My mother was a huge fan of that and other glass-half-full-isms until she found out she had stage 4 colon cancer and died. But yeah i can laugh about it now. Got any more where that came from?

Oh dear. Nope, I'm fresh out, BG.
 
Everything happens for a reason.

Yep, I believe that.

Nope, I don't "believe" that. (Then again, I don't really "believe" much of anything - I have made a few observations, is all.)

Whether it's down to fate, or whether it's down to putting a positive spin on an event in order to get something from it, it doesn't matter. Every experience can teach you something, open a door, or put a change into motion.

Yep, THAT I can buy!

From my perspective: Some stuff happens randomly. Some stuff that we choose to do has consequences. Some stuff has "reasons", some stuff doesn't. We can take what we will from that.

Some shit just happens - a non-smoker gets lung cancer, for instance. It's not a punishment. No higher power decided that THIS person (no better or worse than any other) "deserved" to die at 37 (while some pedophile lives to 98). The witnesses can choose to draw some meaningful conclusions from the event (for instance - "life is short - don't waste it").

On the other hand, a person alienates all of their family, abuses their kids, who then refuse to talk to them and they live out a miserable lonely existence - they are reaping what they sow. You can draw conclusions from that as well (i.e. "Don't be a dick.")

Just because we can learn from any experience doesn't necessarily mean that there is a "reason" for it...again, just my perspective.

JaneQ
 
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I look at attachment in relationships not from a Buddhist approach as much as from the dependency/codependency angle and neediness issues. I consider my goal of loving without attachment as very important. For me, non-attachment is about autonomy and individuality, not meeting some Buddhist or Buddhism-inspired ideal, although some elements of what Buddhists have to say about attachment do ring true for me.

There have been a few other threads about attachment and how others view it, deal with it, etc. One thread, called, "Attachment in secondary 'ships," prompted me to post a few others' views on the subject of attachment. Maybe you'll find some of it helpful or insightful:
Hmmm. I found some gems in several articles and blog posts that might be helpful (links to the articles are in bold):

Love, sex, and non-attachment
The author, a Buddhist, writes:
"So then what is non-attachment in a loving, committed relationship? My understanding of attachment is that it’s not about what we have or don’t have, but what our expectations of them are. As unenlightened people, we live with a persistent delusion that people and things will provide us with more happiness and satisfaction than they really can. And this is where we get tripped up.

So for example, how much am I using my partner’s love to fill a void in my own love and acceptance of myself? A truly healthy individual is one who is complete by herself, and doesn’t need to depend on anything or anyone else to feel whole and content. I don’t mean we should go it alone and isolate ourselves from others. I mean simply not to depend on someone or something external to me as a necessary condition for my happiness.

But the fact is I’m not enlightened. Sure, it’s great to know what the ideal is, but very few people are actually there. I’m sure not. We all have times when we come up against feelings of loneliness, inadequacy, or insecurity. It’s a very normal human response to try to compensate for these unpleasant feelings by using a partner’s love to cover them over. But the truth is, real contentment can only come from within ourselves. A partner can’t provide that for us, and to expect it will only lead to disappointment. "​

Love and Attachment
This author is a therapist. Her ideas on "moving from attachment to love" begin with:
"How do we move from attachment to love, from enmeshment to differentiation? How do we, peel the vine that we have become off the wall? To be completely free of attachment to our partner is an ideal. This is something we can work on throughout our lives.

The first thing we can do is study ourselves and become aware of the attachments we have to our partner. A clue for our attachment is the feeling of pain. We can watch how we react, how we have high expectations, how we no longer treat our partner like a respected friend. We can watch our motivation for saying and doing what we do and get clear how fear drives us."

Codependency Guide: Attachment And Detachment
This is a good article, I think. I especially like the author's description of healthy and non-healthy relationships.

"Within a healthy relationship the following elements exist:
  • Freedom to grow outside that relationship
  • Freedom to expand your own interests
  • A desire for the best for your partner and for them to be able to grow
  • The ability to have separate interests
  • A wide variety of friends; some may be shared while others may not be shared.
  • Feeling secure in your own worth
  • Openness
  • Trust
  • Mutual integrity
  • Free to talk about your feelings
  • The ability to enjoy having time on your own
  • Respect for privacy; not secrets
  • The ability to accept an end to the relationship without feeling as though you have lost your own adequacy.
In an unhealthy relationship the following elements may exist:
  • Living in a fantasy world
  • Denial
  • Overestimating the commitment of the other person
  • Seeking solutions outside your own self such as a new lover, alcohol, drugs, etc.
  • Becoming totally involved in the relationship to the exclusion of everything else.
  • Limited social life
  • Neglecting other relationships
  • Neglecting other interests
  • Becoming preoccupied with the behavior of another person
  • Being dependent upon another’s approval for your self-worth and identity
  • Experiencing fear, possessiveness, jealousy, competition, etc."
 
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I find that the terms attachment and non-attachment can get confusing, particularly if you're not careful to define what the object of attachment is.

How I frame it for myself is that being attached to a person is fine for me, in fact it's what I want: to feel connected, bonded at some level. It's hard to imagine having a meaningful relationship without feeling attached.

What I try to lose attachment to is outcomes. I love a person, but can't control what'll happen. Feelings will evolve on both sides, events in lives will happen, and we will just have to adapt.

Some may need to relinquish to a higher power to get to this state; for me, that isn't necessary or helpful.

I liked Tara Brach's Radical Acceptance for outlining some of these ideas. She does add in the "higher power" component, but I just skim over that, and take the bits that work for me.
 
This is all good stuff, guys, thank you!

I have no plans to contact her right now, not for at least another week or two. I am well aware that I need to give myself more time to pull back emotionally or I'll be right back where I started.

I am the one who insisted on no contact after the break up, and the big blowup we had post-break up was because I felt she wasn't respecting my space. You see, back when we first started dating, I invited her to join a pub trivia team that plays at a local bar. The team consisted of me and three of my next-door neighbors. When we broke up she begged me to stay on the team. As I know she doesn't have much of a social life, I said ok, I'd take a break from playing for a while. Then, she showed up at a party at my next door neighbors house. I heard her voice over my fence and I freaked because now I felt I couldn't go. I said she wasn't respecting my boundaries, she said I was overreacting. That's the last contact we had.

Before I broke it off with her, we discussed the possibility of transitioning to platonic friends. She was sure she could, I was the one who said I didn't really want to be friends. I already have many close female friends, and she doesn't seem to have any, so I worry she doesn't really understand the difference. You can't be friends with someone you're totally hot for, and whatever else was going wrong with us, it wasn't for lack of heat.

Before I do anything, I do need to decide (as GalaGirl wisely states) what exactly I want. The last two months of our relationship, the way she completely withdrew was unbearably painful for me. I am a highly sensitive person, and my attachment style is rather insecure. She is a classic love avoidant with some narcissistic tendencies Everytime I wanted reassurance or expressed emotions, she took it as personal attack and either attacked or withdrew. Physically, I am just sooooo goddamned attracted to her, though, and I love her brilliant, unique mind, her confidence, her goofy sense of humor. She admitted to me at one point that she has never been as vulnerable as quickly with anyone, for what its worth. And I am so grateful for the passion she woke up inside of me, and how it has affected my life for the better, ultimately.

I want to be her lover if I can do it without hurting me.
OR I want to be her friend if I can do it without wanting more.
At the very least, I want to be able to go to trivia night with my neighbors and her without feeling awkward.
I want to stop feeling terrified that I'll run into her and we'll act like strangers (we live on a small island.)
Mostly, I think I just want to stop wanting her so I can be at peace.

I am not, by nature, very zen, I'm more pagan/nature worshipper and Greek god/Aphrodite oriented :) But if I'm going to be ok with this woman on any level, I have got to seriously detach and be devoid of expectation.

Thanks again for listening and for your advice.
 
One of the things I find most helpful about my lack of attachment to any religion or belief system is my freedom and ability to find the gems as Nyc called them, in every system.
12 step programs, counseling programs, various religions each tend to have a few great ones. Compile what works for you, make great use of it in your life. :)
 
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