Redpepper's journey

That is pretty well said. sex can be just sex and little, if anything, is lost. love is love. if the flower is love and all that is being shared with others is sex, that the flower is still just as special as it was when it was first given to you.

I don't agree. The flower is both, really, or to be specific: sexual love. Love can be in many different forms, which are all OK. But if you are giving sex to everybody, then how special is it?

I can see now that my analogy is not going to fit everybody. Swingers would not agree with it, for a start. Some people can easily separate sex and love. I forgot that.

My wife and I think they are intertwined. She could not have sex with someone she had no loving feelings for.

Back to the drawing board...
 
It's a painting that works for some and not others, just like relationships. I guess it boils down to if a person can have sex without feelings, or vice versa.
 
Is this idea, conditions of monogamy, supported by the mental health community?


I believe in two types of people who identify as monogamous: those that live it, essentially, because that is all they know and see around them, and those that actually only form one romantically-loving relationship at a time. I describe my own state of maintaining singular romantic connections as being "wired monogamously."

I'm not a big fan of what any individual or community says about the internal workings of any other human being's heart, outside of their own. So I don't usually look for external validation of my personal beliefs.

I believe all emotions are valid and important, so I don't pay attention to anyone who considers things like jealousy or fear to be lower functions.

I hope I answered your question. :)
 
Redpepper, here is how I would feel as the mono in such a situation as you are facing. Note I am NOT trying to say this is how (your) mono thinks and feels; but it is definitely how I would think and feel. Please bear with my possibly childish analogy. You will see where it is going.
HA! Awesomeness, vodkafan. That is totally how he thinks.
 
It is just that I can see that her flower is no longer very special at all, because she wants to give it to so many people. It is not worth very much.
:(

Hi Vodkafan,

Let me just say that the simplicity in your post made me smile out of genuine humour. :D That being said, and I know this could be stepping on a landmine, I agree with you. I've brought up the comic/stamp collector analogy before. The limited circulation editions have value. The ones that everyone can get their hands on are just fun to look at or spend some time reading. But there's no investment.

BUT, many stamps and comics are so valuable that even though more people have them, they are still of great value. When you find one of those you share in its value with others and can even develop a group appreciation for what an amazing gift you all have.
 
HA! Awesomeness, vodkafan. That is totally how he thinks.
Your way of seeing things is why I came around to not having casual sex any more. I see things quite differently now. I don't give my flower away to just anyone. Quite the contrary. Now I tease them with it while on stage doing burlesque. ;) Actually, not as often as I wish..

I love that sexual energy and thrive on it. When someone comes along that is worth my giving to and being returned to, then I don't see it as giving my flower away too often and to too many. Mine is a private garden for many to share. I have always been an extrovert, after all. My garden is, at least, private, though. ;) That I am confident is right for me. There are several gardeners that tend it and it is happy, growing and lovely. Sometimes I need extra pruning and admiring. :cool:

This is seriously making me howl. :D I love it. You are so cute, vodkafan. I have always had a soft spot for you and your wit.

Thank you for making me laugh and taking the chance to tell me your thoughts in our PMs and here on my blog. It means a lot to me. :)
 
"I don't usually look for external validation of my personal beliefs."

(I'll study how to quote at some point.)

I think this is a very important sentence. Once you start looking for external validation, it can be a rocky path to moving away from your own personal values. Once you look elsewhere, you are telling yourself that you don't trust your own judgement.

It can be like there are two versions of you. If the outside version is looking for validation externally, the outside person is telling the inside person that their thoughts aren't the priority, that they won't be listened to above other influences

It is always important to take guidance from others, but it's a really fine line. It's very important that the actions of the outside person are being respectful of the inside person. I think this is really crucial, and it doesn't matter if the topic is sex or what to eat for dinner.

I think it's really important to develop trust in your decision-making process, and this requires a very deep faith in your value system. I find that when I put a lot of work into studying my values, decisions become very easy. The point I'm trying to make is: we need to validate ourselves.
 
RP, I haven't read your blog for a few weeks. I just caught up. Very interesting discussion of poly-fi.

Since I am genderqueer and pansexual (and maybe for other reasons having to do with patriarchal societies and customs making men the owner of women), I truly don't get where a male partner is OK with his female partner having female lovers, but not male ones.

I'm gathering that Mono doesn't want you to have sex with Leo for these reasons. He feels more threatened by you having another male lover, than a female one. Am I correct in perceiving that he'd be OK with you having sex with another woman (not Derby, but yet another woman), but not OK with you having sex with another man (besides your husband)?

Is this why you haven't had sex with Leo? Is this hampering your relationship with Leo? You say you are content with being his "trophy:" a good-looking, well-dressed woman he can show off to his friends. This sounds kinda off to me. Why are you okay with being a trophy, admired just for your physical presence? It sounds a bit dehumanizing to me. Or, on the other hand, is it in line with your interest in burlesque performance, teasing others with your sexuality, since you aren't "allowed" to actually share it?
 
He feels more threatened by you having another male lover, than a female one?

Just to clarify, there is no sexual threat, as in the idea of comparison. The only threat is to my connection towards Redpepper with regards to romantic involvement. Redpepper is allowed to have sex with anyone. There is no ownership in our relationship. Our compromises shape how our relationship works and how our love is expressed. We will be involved in each other's lives for a very long time, regardless of what shape that takes, in response to what we both need out of life. :)

I own nothing. She gives me a gift and can withdraw that at any time, with my full understanding and support. Sex is important to me, but it is not the be-all and end-all of loving, nor is it some inescapable drive that makes me push myself into unhealthy territory to achieve. I'm above that.
 
Mags, I love your really hard questions. I love being pushed. Your post is too long to comment on just yet. Busy day today for me. Just thought I would let you know my thoughts later. Thanks for the challenge! :)
 
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Am I correct in perceiving that he'd be OK with you having sex with another woman (not Derby) but yet another woman?

This statement is pretty much correct, except that I am OK with Redpepper actually developing relationships with other women that include sex., not that I am OK with her having sex with any woman.

Me being OK with anything is ultimately irrelevant, as she is an individual with free will.

I know it's hard to understand how I can handle my partner having sex with one gender and not another. Even this is a huge thing for me. I almost left my ex-wife over her very brief and unconsecrated exploration with another woman.

There's no easy explanation, other than it is a combination of perceiving female energy and intimacy as something much different than that of another male, as well as an admitted turn-off factor at the thought of RP with additional men. Whether this perception is shared by anyone else, or thought to be incorrect, is irrelevant to my reality. It is this perception that enables me to embrace these relationships and be healthy in them. They do affect me. It is not as though they just don't count or matter. I work at them.

If I had never become more than a boy-toy or was involved in a less committed way, such as casual dating, then I believe things could be different. I am hardly a boy-toy though, and I doubt if we could continue to be intimate if I stepped back into a casual role. We've come too far to lessen our relationship simply to share the occasional fuck. We have sex with our hearts as well as our bodies.

It is, again, a very unique set of circumstance that had to occur for us to be a healthy partnership. The idea of non-monogamy is very far from my side of the scale. Having a completely open relationship is off my scale. Redpepper is the only woman I can ever imagine even having a non-monogamous relationship of any depth with. The bond we formed early on, through exceptional vulnerability and trust, is what has given me the strength to push past the idea of being in a non-monogamous relationship at all. This is it, the first and last one, hopefully a very, very, very long one, at that. :)
 
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Since I am genderqueer and pansexual (and maybe for other reasons having to do with patriarchal societies and customs making men the owner of women), I truly don't get where a male partner is OK with his female partner having female lovers, but not male ones.
I don't get it, either. Probably for the same reasons. I get that women and men have different energy, but that is where my understanding ends. I was with women only for years. This proves to me that they mean more to me than curiosity. But still, it is seen that it is in some way different, that my love would be different.
I'm gathering that Mono doesn't want you to have sex with Leo for these reasons. He feels more threatened by you having another male lover, than a female one. Am I correct in perceiving that he'd be OK with you having sex with another woman (not Derby, but yet another woman), but not OK with you having sex with another man (besides your husband)? Is this why you haven't had sex with Leo?
That's right. He doesn't want me to have sex with Leo because he would be turned off so much that he would not ever be able to have sex with me again. I would've crossed a line that, for him, is so important, he would have to end that part of my relationship, and just be friends. In essence, there would be a 180 turn. It's black and white for him. I have to chose Leo and others over him where men are concerned, or chose him.

It is not an ultimatum, as I am free to decide, when the time comes, and he will just carry on and be fine. To me, it is an ultimatum. But what can I say? To him, it isn't.

I never said any of this is perfect. Hence the reason we are always in a state of negotiating boundaries and compromising. Most of the time, I compromise, and am faced with a wall. But ask Mono and he would say the same thing.

Women are different. I am to understand that if I were to find a woman I am attracted to enough to be sexual with, then that would be an option, where he is concerned, as this is different for him and he wouldn't be threatened. I think he would struggle if I went quickly into a sexual relationship, however, as people usually do when a relationship is approached with haste into the bedroom.
Is this hampering your relationship with Leo?
Yes and no to the hampering. It is hampering, because I feel cut off from the depth I could have. It makes me feel sad and unwilling to continue sometimes, because it is painful. I continue because I don't want to hurt Leo and because it sounds petty and because I am willing to see what happens with our friendship, as a result. If Leo were to ever find someone to be sexual with, in terms of a secondary, I would have to end our friendship for a time, as I think I would be nearly devastated. If he went swinging again, I would be too.

On the same token, Leo lives his life differently to me. He enjoys casual sex. We have fought/debated often about our differing values. I am not sure I could be with a boyfriend sexually who requires casual sex. I would feel that his flower is everyone's, ;) and not special.
You say you are content with being his "trophy:" a good-looking, well-dressed woman he can show off to his friends. This sounds kinda off to me... Why are you okay with being a trophy, admired just for your physical presence? It sounds a bit dehumanizing to me. Or, on the other hand, is it in line with your interest in burlesque performance, teasing others with your sexuality, since you aren't "allowed" to actually share it?
As to being a trophy, this kind of answers the question you asked about our relationship being hampered. Again, yes and no.

Yes, it's all in line with my interest in burlesque and being a mistress. I seem to command a presence, with him and others, that seems to make people sit up and pay attention. I work hard at keeping that at bay, most of the time, and do my best to merge into the background, as a method to conserve energy and allow space to just witness others.

I enjoy an outlet for the energy, though, in that I get to be a mistress. I decide what we do, and where we eat. I have doors held open for me, and command that he pays attention to me when we are together. He fulfils that for me.

He is a Leo after all. Leo men often like women who are confident, independent and attractive/sexy in some way. He likes to be around them. He enjoys that about me as much as he enjoys my vulnerabilities. He is very protective of me and my emotional state. He knows that I am easily bruised and likes to take care that people don't take advantage of me.

I feel like a 1950s Hollywood star when I am with him. We both like old cars and old movies, perhaps that is why. I think I am like an admired confident starlet, with a tender heart behind the scenes.

Except when we camp, that is. Then we are dirty pigs together, all of us. A whole other dynamic comes out when we camp, where I feel totally vulnerable and myself in another way. I don't relate to him as much when we camp and pay more attention to my family. He to his.

I assure you, I am not dehumanized. I really like teasing an audience of some kind. To me, there is some classiness to that, some mystery and intrigue. I don't feel the need to have sex with people just because I have teased them. There is something to be said for teasing and leaving men hanging. They all know that I am teasing and can chose to be involved in that or not.

Leo seems to like it. I have no doubt it is frustrating for him, but he has a wife to go home to and is quite firm that we don't need to have sex. Apparently his sex life with her is incredible right now, as a result of me being in his life. I am content with that. I love seeing him happy and having compersion for them both. I hear that he is out of his depression, taking fewer meds and is doing things he hasn't done in years (building a fence). There are lots of positives to all this, regardless of there being no actual sex. I am happy with that, for the time.

I know it might seem bizarre. It is to me, too. I often don't get what the hell is going on, which is why I write here. I need some sense of "normal" at this point, and am working towards that, just as I have in every relationship dynamic I have been in.

Poly is fucked a lot of time when I come across more ways to have relationships that are by my rules/boundaries and others involved. We aren't doing this mainstream poly style, but *meh* So what? As long as there is something gained, I will continue. :)

I likely will get my heart trampled on with this. I am really taking a huge risk in every direction.
 
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RP, you mentioned risk in your last sentence.

There are two types of risk. Human beings generally focus on "downside risk," to use a financial term, the risk that an investment will go down in value.

Our relationships are investments.

The other side of risk is called "upside risk," which is the extent to which the value of an investment may increase beyond forecasted levels.

I sometimes like to think about that, as we generally see "risk" as a negative. But we only take risk if there are opportunities for positive returns.

And it's not too much like playing the stock market! But you do have control over whom you invest in. :)

Best wishes...
 
RP, I just read your posting for to today and I had to go back to get some perspective on your NSBF, Leo. When I read the situation of the bedroom movie night, I had a couple of questions. My first thought was, whose idea was this? Why torture the mono guy? Why not do this at Leo's house or in your poly husband's space?

Was this an attempt to desensitize Mono to the eventual consequence of dating Leo and/or other men? Let's say you decide to go forward sexually with Leo, and Mono remained in his apartment, could you be in your new room while he and some new love were giggling in the other room? (Not to say he's a giggler, but you get the drift.)

When you all discussed Mono moving in, was this always something that he knew was going to happen, bedroom dates with guys?

Do you and Leo talk about this boundary softening or coming down, someday? Like a, "Hey, I'm working on him," type of thing?
 
This statement is pretty much correct, except that I am OK with Redpepper actually developing relationships with other women that include sex, not that I am OK with her having sex with any woman.

Yes, yes, understood.

Me being ok with anything is ultimately irrelevant, as she is an individual with free will.

I know it's hard to understand how I can handle my partner having sex with one gender and not another. Even this is a huge thing for me. I almost left my ex wife over her very brief and unconsecrated exploration with another woman.

It is very hard for me to understand, and probably for RP. Lesbians come in so many flavors! Some are more masculine than many men. Some dress and wear their hair in a mannish style, have "male" mannerisms, etc. Some even "pack" (wear a certain toy in their pants that looks like a flaccid penis) daily, many use strap-ons for sex, etc. And even in their heads, they may not be feminine, and talk and act in a masculine fashion.

On the other hand, some men are more effeminate, sensitive, are soft and vulnerable, nurturing, perhaps like to cross dress in the bedroom or wear women's panties daily under their male drag, and have other traditional feminine qualities, watch and cry at chick flicks, knit, sew, cook, love kids, enjoy housework and shopping, etc.

There's no easy explanation, other than it is a combination of perceiving female energy and intimacy as something much different than that of another male, as well as an admitted turn-off factor at the thought of RP with additional men. Whether this perception is shared by anyone else, or thought to be incorrect is irrelevant to my reality. It is this perception that enables me to embrace these relationships and be healthy in them. They do affect me. It is not as though they just don't count or matter. I work at them.

Good. I'm glad you're working on it. Maybe you'll see things less black and white someday. This would be respectful to RP, I think.


I have to chose Leo and others over him where men are concerned, or chose him.

To me it is an ultimatum. But what can I say? To him it isn't.
I never said any of this is perfect. Hence the reason we are always in a state of negotiating boundaries and compromising. Most of the time I compromise and am faced with a wall. But ask Mono and he would say the same thing.
Women are different. I am to understand that if I were to find a woman I am attracted to enough to be sexual with, then that would be an option, where he is concerned, as it is different for him and he wouldn't be threatened.
Yes and no, to the hampering. It is hampering, because I feel cut off from the depth I could have. It makes me feel sad and unwilling to continue sometimes, because it is painful.

I would imagine it would feel painful!

I continue because I don't want to hurt Leo and because it sounds petty. I am willing to see what happens with our friendship, as a result. If Leo were to ever find someone to be sexual with, in terms of a secondary, I would have to end our friendship for a time. I think I would be nearly devastated. If he went swinging again, I would be too.

Complicated! He's a bf. You love each other, in a way. Mono is OK with the love, but not the sex.

As to being a trophy, this kind of answers the question you asked about our relationship being hampered. Again, yes and no.

Yes, it's all in line with my interest in burlesque and being a mistress.

You mean Mistress, as in Domme, not mistress as in a mere lover/affair.

I seem to command a presence with him and others that seems to make people sit up and pay attention. I work hard at keeping that at bay most of the time and do my best to merge into the background, as a method to conserve energy and allow space to just witness others. I enjoy an outlet for the energy though. in that I get to be a mistress. I decide what we do and where we eat. I have doors held open for me, and command that he pays attention to me when we are together. He fulfills that for me.

Okay. That helps explain why you bother to continue with this seemingly frustrating relationship.


I assure you I am not dehumanized. I really like teasing an audience of some kind. To me, there is some classiness to that, some mystery and intrigue. I don't feel the need to have sex with people just because I have teased them. There is something to be said for teasing and leaving men hanging.

Haha. I do that online occasionally, but generally I follow through to orgasms for both of us. For me, that's much more fun.

They all know that I am teasing and can chose to be involved in that or not. He seems to like it. I have no doubt it is frustrating for him, but he has a wife to go home to, and is quite firm that we don't need to have sex. Apparently his sex life with her is incredible right now as a result of me being in his life. I am content with that.

Well, my gf hasn't had sex yet with her bf. He and she both get "fluffed" by their chats and dates with each other, and then take it out on their primaries. It's kinda weird to me, but I guess that's part of being poly.

I know it might seem bizarre. It is to me too.

I likely will get my heart trampled on with this. I am really taking a huge risk in every direction.

Best wishes!
 
She did everything right

My first thought was, whose idea was this? Why torture the mono guy? Why not do this at Leo's house or in your poly husband's space?

We discussed this before he came over. I set up the movie and encouraged the movie night. We all camp together as friends and I needed to explore what type of ways I am comfortable with people being in my space, which surrounds her space, so to speak. I felt it was a gift. Also, I needed to see how it would be, so I pushed myself. There was no torture involved except that generated by my own mind. Redpepper was very conscientious of my feelings. She did everything right.

Redpepper and I are extremely trustworthy, and have control of our sexualities, so the idea or excuse of "getting caught up in the moment" is not one we adhere to. We've both done that in the past, and know what the ramifications are.

I want to give her as much as possible, without giving so much that she loses my intimate connection. This visit encroached on that. Oddly enough, I'd have no problem with PN or Derby having sex in her room. Derby has been over and everything was great. I was hoping it would be like that for Leo too, but their supressed attraction made it feel as though I was setting her up to create a situation that would interrupt my connection to her.

Tonight they have a movie date upstairs in the main house. I'm cool with that. In fact, I will be setting up the video equipment again. :)
 
Hi Mono,

So, it may not have been your idea. But you, in the spirit of gift-giving, wanted to see where your limits were.

When I said torture, I was thinking of it as self-induced. I never thought she/they were intentionally trying to torture you.

It's not hard to imagine how one's brain could start reeling with all kinds of thoughts--"It's too damn quiet." Or the images of them all entwined. It's all in your head, mind you. They were just watching a movie, completely unaware of anything but the movie.

You're a better man than me. I'm thinking a gift card or maybe a back rub, flowers, fondue pot. They say people like those.

Take care,
D
 
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