Turnabout

I will call BULLSHIT on this excuse. This is what my husband always says and I finally learned to call him on it. He lied to avoid an uncomfortable situation that put himself in a bad light. He didn't want the fallout if you got upset, he didn't want to get yelled at, he didn't want to look like the bad guy, etc. It has nothing at all to do with YOUR feelings and everything to do with him. So while it maybe more avoidance than "sneaky" it is NOT about his caring for your feelings.

Ditto. It wasn't about him feeling bad for hurting you, it's about HIM feeling bad because you're hurt, and not wanting to feel bad about himself.

It comes from fear, not love.
 
You are both definitely right. But I don't want to believe it. :(

I want to be in denial. I want to think he is more of a caring person than he is. I want to feel safe with him, when I know I'm not. I want his lies to be the truth. But I know I can't believe them, any longer. Once you see through enough of them, it's really hard to go back, you know??

It's hard to go forward, too. I'm scared. :(
 
I want to be in denial. I want to think he is more of a caring person than he is. I want to feel safe with him, when I know I'm not. I want his lies to be the truth. But I know I can't believe them, any longer. Once you see through enough of them, it's really hard to go back, you know??

I do know! I've overlooked lies, rationalized them, and even believed him the next time, it's hard not to when it's someone you love. However, nothing really got better until I stopped ACCEPTING the lies, including the ones he would tell himself. My husband would convince himself that his lies were for my benefit and therefore he was justified to continue, when in truth he was just trying to avoid fallout. It took a long time to get to that place, but we eventually made it. All hope is not lost even if there is a long road ahead, even small baby steps moves you forward.
 
How is Butch doing? Did he have his surgery yesterday?

Yeah, how did things go?!

I do know! I've overlooked lies, rationalized them, and even believed him the next time, it's hard not to when it's someone you love. However, nothing really got better until I stopped ACCEPTING the lies, including the ones he would tell himself. My husband would convince himself that his lies were for my benefit and therefore he was justified to continue, when in truth he was just trying to avoid fallout. It took a long time to get to that place, but we eventually made it. All hope is not lost even if there is a long road ahead, even small baby steps moves you forward.

Yes. It's not a matter of saying "you're a liar, get out." But you do have to stop the acceptance of the lies and stop helping him rationalize the lies. Until that happens, you can't really progress anywhere because he'll continue to lie and you'll continue to not trust him.

And it isn't like he doesn't care about your feelings... there most likely is a bit of guilt over doing things he knows will hurt you and then rationalizing that not telling you will keep you from being hurt. It all makes sense in his head I'm sure. But if he was REALLY being honest with himself he'd realize that if he's doing things that he knows will hurt you (that he knows are not cool), then the point is not to do them and not tell you-- the point is to not do them in the first place. :p

Again, this is something completely out of your control, but what is in your control is not going along with the lies and not going along with the rationalizations. I know it's tough. But in the long run it's better for both of you, peace of mind-wise anyway!

And honestly, this is kind of a tough-love type of action. You do love him, and because of that you can't keep helping him behave badly.
 
THANK YOU for asking -- Butch's surgery was a success!!!!! :) Very happy for him. At least now his heart rhythm is regular. I am not sure the entire prognosis, but yesterday's procedure worked. I'm always so scared when he goes and they are messing around with his heart -- I mean, they went in and SHOCKED it. :eek: Scary stuff.

I don't know how to interpret the things Sundance says. I have no idea anymore what is the truth and what isn't.

He said he loves her. I am amazed that he would admit that to me, in a million years I wouldn't have predicted that. But THAT one, I'm choosing to believe!

She sent him pictures when she was on vacation, of her in the sand, next to the message written in the sand, "I love you." Typical romantic shot, right? Well, then the next pictures she had written each of my SONS' names in the sand. What am I to make of that???? He said she just knows how much they mean to him, that's why. I think she is endearing herself, pretty heavy. I think they are talking about joining lives. He says they aren't. But I have no idea, and I'm tired of guessing.

I'm tired of the whole mess. :(

And I still believe, for one thing, if he really cared what I am thinking, he would come here and read my blog. He's all talk, when it comes to me. (Probably when it comes to her, too, actually! But she is believing it all, so hey, she trumps!)
 
Awesome news for Butch!! :)

And wickedly creepy about the picture. I had someone try to endear themselves to my children to get to my exhusband before. She wanted to be a little happy family with him and them. He was being an asshat, so I gave him to her. She thought she'd gotten the best part of the deal until several years later when she found out that our issues really WEREN'T all me, and that he'd been using her for years to share household expenses and help him take care of the kids during his time with them and was banging multiple women behind his back. When he left her with a house payment she couldn't make for another woman he'd met online she seemed surprised. :p

I don't know if it's possible, but if I were you I'd try to just take a big long pause from worrying about what Sundance is doing and thinking and just breathe for a while. Take some time to pull yourself out of the thought circles. Go for a walk, play with your kids, go out and see a movie.

I really do know how easy it is to spin yourself up and question and pick apart and worry about every single little thing that's going on right now. But the fact is that it won't help the situation and the only person it will hurt is you.

You need some time and distance and calm right now.

I really can't recommend Tara Brach enough. Really. :) I listen to one of her audiotalks each morning and it helps me recognize some of the patterns and thought bombs I drop on myself on a regular basis. By being more aware of it, then you can eventually learn to see yourself doing it, and there are methods that can help you get out of the trap. In the past two months it's helped me come to some sense of peace, even in a place where a lot of things are out of my control. I'm not saying it's an easy fix... but man it can help!

((( hugs))))
 
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THANK YOU for asking -- Butch's surgery was a success!!!!! :) Very happy for him. At least now his heart rhythm is regular. I am not sure the entire prognosis, but yesterday's procedure worked.

That's great! One less thing to worry about and feel compelled to fix.

I don't know how to interpret the things Sundance says. I have no idea anymore what is the truth and what isn't.

Don't believe a word he says. He doesn't know what love is. Except loving himself.

He said he loves her.

She sent him pictures when she was on vacation, of her in the sand, next to the message written in the sand, "I love you." Typical romantic shot, right? Well, then the next pictures she had written each of my SONS' names in the sand.

SCREECH! Wait just a goddam minute.

1) Why is he showing you pix of her?? Why are you looking??? Get out of the middle of that mess.

2) That is just gross and wrong in so many ways, that she'd write the names of his children (AND YOURS) in the sand and send him that! Get away from this sick sad man and his floozie. Those are your babies!! She has no right to be "claiming" them like that until you and he are fully separated! Has she even met them yet? Why is she acting like she's their mom?
 
Showing the pictures -- yeah, it's weird. Really messed up. But we were once a COUPLE and I guess both of us are not over that yet. :( We had a moment where we were talking openly, like we used to. He showed me some of their text conversations and the pictures they have sent back and forth. At the time I was glad he did -- no more secrets. But you're right, Mag, his secrets are sick and I should just stay out of them, for my own sanity. For one thing, he said she would be mad if she knew he was showing them to me. How many things has he shared with her, about me, that I thought were private, just between us?

Ignorance is bliss, right? Or knowledge is power?! I am glad I know she wrote my sons' names in the sand and sent him a picture. It shows me they are way closer than he claims. It reminds me not to believe him when he makes it sound like I'm the only one he wants -- obviously he is telling her the same thing!!

It would be so easy to cave. It really helps me to keep hearing all of you. Staying out of denial is WORK for me. But if I go back in and believe his pretty lies, I will have to face all the pain and disappointment all over again. I do take walks, I do focus on the kids, I am not obsessing over him 24/7 (I'm getting much better) -- but I come here to get perspective. I could so easily get sucked in by him. I can start to fantasize, maybe we really COULD be poly, IF ONLY..... if only he could be honest. Well, that's just not looking too promising, is it??? But I go back to dreaming, what if Barbie could be my sister wife, after all? What if I could just forgive things, what if he tried something new, what if she really does love him and our kids and she could love me too....? OR -- maybe I could fight for him, for our marriage, I could blow her right out of the water, make some threats, some ultimatums, scare her off.... I'm not really like that, but I could make her feel really shitty if I wanted to. Probably guilty enough she'd stay away. At the very least, I could tell her the fucking TRUTH -- I wouldn't even HAVE to be mean, HE has done enough, on his own, for their little house of cards to fall real quick! She and I could become the best of friends, and send HIM packing!!! One minute I hate her, the next minute I feel sorry for her, the next I'm sad because I've never even met her, the next I'm hopeful that she'll take him off my hands, the next I'm jealous because she will, then I'm mad because she isn't taking him fast enough!!!!!

He just called me and was all tentative, saying I'm so cold he has no choice but to leave me alone. He said, "If you're not willing to try and change things, then I have no choice...." And I said, "Wait a minute, I HAVE changed things! This IS a change!!!!" Duh! He just wants me to change BACK! into a girl he can manipulate more easily. He says "You could at least be civil. You are so MEAN, it really hurts my feelings. I'm nice to YOU." And I feel the guilt, trying to pour in......:(

I AM nice. I AM. I'm a nice person! But right now it will much better serve me to be a bitch. Ugh. This is awful. I wish he'd just stay away from me. We'll both be home in the house tonight, with the kids. It's hard to play happy family, but he knows he's got me right where he wants me when the kids are around. I can't explain to them why I'm being detached from him. And he lays it on THICK, with them in the room. Tries to kiss me hello, like always, like everything's the same. It's NOT the same. :mad: I tried to encourage him to stay with her on Wednesdays, but he didn't go for it. SHE must be busy. Well, he could even have gotten a hotel up near work for the night. WTF. He wants to stay here and pressure me, that's what. :mad:
 
It can't be easy, Carma. What I see is you still here, still fighting, not giving in to this crazy situation or this crazy guy. You are strong.
 
I propose an intervention. Let's all of us charter a bus and head up to your place. You tell Sundance you've got a surprise for him, and we'll pick up Barbie on the way. Then let the "truth session" begin!! :p:eek::D

I'd LOVE to have all my forum friends come for me. I suppose your cyber support is the next best thing. :p

A truth session -- so funny -- that is exactly what my MOM thinks needs to happen! Haha! (She's been great through all of this, btw. Even though she doesn't believe poly can really be a good way of life for anyone, she has been very understanding of my feelings, and of my attempts to find creative solutions. Die-hard monogamist that she is, she would like to scratch Barbie's eyes out, I'm afraid!:eek:)
 
We'll both be home in the house tonight, with the kids..... I tried to encourage him to stay with her on Wednesdays, but he didn't go for it. SHE must be busy. Well, he could even have gotten a hotel up near work for the night. WTF. He wants to stay here and pressure me, that's what. :mad:

He SAID he was coming home tonight. Then I notice the hair-dryer and his shaving kit missing from the bathroom. This script I COULD write: Sure enough, I get a text at 4:30, "I'm running late, won't be making it home tonight."

Then he tells me, he's getting a hotel room, his company is paying for it. He's not staying the night at HER house. But he WILL be seeing her for a little while, then at 10:00 she is meeting with her other boyfriend. And he will call me when he gets back to his hotel.

We texted and talked a lot, fighting back and forth, then trying to be civil.... it's mostly the lying that got me going, as much as anything. The layering of deceit! Why oh why can't he just say he's staying with her? That he PLANNED it, not that work ran late!

Then he never called. It's 1:30 in the morning and he never called like he said about 5 times that he would.

Yes, I told him he should just stay the night with her on Wednesdays. BUT -- he adamantly refused. Said he would never do that, that he wants to be home with his family. OKAY. But then he makes up a scheme to do the exact thing he said he would never do! I feel like I am dying.
 
He finally called. I heard him whispering something right when I answered (and no I'm not crazy and hearing things, and even tho I am overly sensitive these days, I KNOW WHAT I HEARD.:mad::( She was still there -- maybe just leaving - ?). He said she left just before midnight. That he dozed off afterward. RIGHT. Then he said he didn't call because he figured I was sleeping, snuggled up with the kids. Then he said "You have been an ice princess to me, what did you expect?"

He said she didn't go with her other bf (NO?!?!?) but he told me 3 different stories of why. All red herrings, to get me thinking in all crazy directions. He had to have known all along she wasn't going anywhere at 10:00. He had to know I'd be waiting for his call. So WHY PROMISE TO CALL???? He is either uncaring, insensitive, or so madly in love with her he just doesn't give a shit. None of it makes any sense. He always has at least three explanations for what and why he did something. He lies when he doesn't have to lie! When the truth would serve him better!

I am sorry to STILL be so shocked by this!!!!

I am sorry I still dream of being respected in this circus!!!

I am sorry I still want to believe his lies.

I called Barbie, but she didn't answer. I texted her, "Are you with Sundance? Please be honest with me." I called her again, and re-sent the text. No reply. (I know she got it because Sundance said she called him, and she "mentioned" I had called, but he said she was all freaked out about her boyfriend possibly following her to Sundance's hotel tonight .... BULLSHIT! She SHOULD have been pretty fucking worried that his angry wife is calling her at 2 in the morning!)
I am planning to call her tomorrow and tell her if she can't be honest with me she needs to either get the fuck away from my husband or take him.

I'm calling a counselor tomorrow. If nothing else it will be another person to wade through all this sewage so I don't have to keep doing it alone. He sure won't respect me but he might not be able to get away with his shit, with a professional. He's brought up counseling several times. I think it will be interesting to see if he really even keeps an appointment. Actually, he has to, because he has insurance but I don't. Hmmmm, he will have to be identified as "the patient"......
 
Sorry sweets. (((HUGS))))

A counselor is a great idea. If nothing else so you can have somebody help you to deal with the feelings regarding the loss of trust and the lying.

I think calling her might be a good idea. Let her know that the reason you and Sundance are having trouble isn't because he's seeing her, it's because he's been lying to you constantly and you no longer trust him. That you had always been open to him falling in love with her, but you will not accept being with a dishonest and untrustworthy partner. If I were you I'd also tell her that until this week he'd been telling you she meant little to him and would give her up in an instant, and that had always bothered you because you thought that was inconsiderate to her.

I don't really think this will change anything with her. It's not really for her, it's for you. I think clearing the air will make you feel a little better, and will at least plant the seed in the back of her head that maybe she's not getting the full truth.

I also think you do need to set boundaries with her regarding your children. Until she's an established part of his life that's in the open, and until she can establish that she's going to be honest and trustworthy (not likely), she needs to stay away from your kids. End of story.

I also think when you talk to Sundance you need to just say straight out that the moment you noticed his hair dryer and bathroom stuff gone in the morning you were waiting for the call that he was staying there and seeing her. Tell him he's not only a liar, but a shitty one. And tell him if he wants you to be open to anything he says he'd better get a grip on the lying because THAT'S what's causing the disruption.

Sheesh. What a douchebag he's being.
 
I agree with everything Minxxa said.

I do have a feeling that Barbie will avoid speaking to you if you call. Which means that you can either send or an email or try and surprise her with a face-to-face meeting, I guess. But these are very important points:

Let her know that the reason you and Sundance are having trouble isn't because he's seeing her, it's because he's been lying to you constantly and you no longer trust him. That you had always been open to him falling in love with her, but you will not accept being with a dishonest and untrustworthy partner. If I were you I'd also tell her that until this week he'd been telling you she meant little to him and would give her up in an instant, and that had always bothered you because you thought that was inconsiderate to her.

I don't really think this will change anything with her. It's not really for her, it's for you. I think clearing the air will make you feel a little better, and will at least plant the seed in the back of her head that maybe she's not getting the full truth.

I also think you do need to set boundaries with her regarding your children. Until she's an established part of his life that's in the open, and until she can establish that she's going to be honest and trustworthy (not likely), she needs to stay away from your kids. End of story.
 
She texted me back right away in the morning. We had an hour and a half text conversation! Texting was awesome -- it was so much better than hem-hawing through a conversation.

I am so torn. Lots of feelings. She really does love him, even though she kept trying to say she loves her other boyfriend (who she admits is a total jerk and she is crazy to put up with!) I can tell she will do or say ANYTHING to help Sundance, including begging me to love him! I get the real impression that they are building a love together, but he still wishes that love was with the mother of his children. He still wishes I could love him the way she does.

I've been there. I used to beg Butch's wife to love him. But she just couldn't. I judged her for being a horrible bitch (well, she is bitchy to lots of people, not just him :p) -- but the bottom line is, she couldn't get past the hurts that had occurred in their marriage. They were not compatible.

I am starting to believe that Sundance and Barbie are so compatible! She loves him with that gaga love he wants so badly. She doesn't rake him over the coals, wanting him to be more deep and real, she accepts him the way he is. At this point I suppose she'd even forgive him for the lies he told her in the beginning. She may even know about them, by now -- I think he's really opened up to her.

I'm proposing that we really make up a plan to be separated but living in the same house. We have to make things really clear, and stick to it. And put a TIME FRAME around it, eh?

The hardest part of that is, the grieving. We are both mourning for the loss of our marriage. It brings up so many emotions, but we have to be careful not to console each other in an inappropriate way!! Commit to the new way, at least for a month, and then reevaluate things. Maybe we will find we miss each other enough we are willing to end our other relationships. Or, we will find we don't want to pursue the other relationships anymore -- maybe they will resolve. Or one, or both of us, will decide to leave and be with Butch or Barbie. That is the risky part, if one decides that and the other wanted to get back together, but we are just going to have to put our own EGOs aside and love above all that.

Can you believe when we were texting Barbie even said "I love you" to ME? We were both very kind to one another. She really does seem to care about me and my family. That's what happens when you fall in love with someone. It extends! How can I deny Sundance this love? (Why should he deny himself, is the real question -- because he kept deluding himself that he couldn't have that kind of love unless it was with ME. He has some work to do. Well, obviously! Maybe this will give him some time to do that.) I can't say I'm giving up on polyamory, at this point. Maybe after a break and some freedom, Sundance will decide he wants us both to meet, to be friends, to all be in each other's lives. Who knows? Maybe we can get more honest and create some guidelines and boundaries that we can all live with. I am ok with dreaming, but for now, the wishing has to end.

And as for me and Butch, I don't know what to do. We may need to take this time to clear our heads and wait for Sundance to clear his. Otherwise, Butch will be dealing with the stress all over again. He can't afford that. Then again, when your health and very life are so unpredictable, life is short, make love! And when Sundance is with Barbie, he prefers for me to be with Butch, naturally, to ease his conscience. So he will actually encourage it. Well, we'll see what happens....

I love you, forum friends! Thanks for all the hugs and support. :)
 
Carma, I hate to be a naysayer and bubble burster, but try not to let yourself get caught up in all this wistful hopefulness that she's so nice and good for him, and all that. If I were you, I'd feel better if I actually spoke to her and heard her voice. How do you know it really was her you were texting with and not SD? Or that he wasn't there coaching her?

It sounds like you didn't really come out and say to her what he's been saying to you about her. You still need to be protective of your kids and to let Barbie know of all SD's lies, and that she doesn't just get to be anything to your kids without knowing you first.
 
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She texted me back right away in the morning. We had an hour and a half text conversation! Texting was awesome -- it was so much better than hem-hawing through a conversation.

Good. Finally!

I am so torn. Lots of feelings. She really does love him

They have been together 3 months! It's NRE. She sees only the facade, that you see through.

, even though she kept trying to say she loves her other boyfriend (who she admits is a total jerk and she is crazy to put up with!)

And Sundance is your jerk that you put up with!

I can tell she will do or say ANYTHING to help Sundance, including begging me to love him!

How pointless and rude. You've tried to love that handsome gym-pumped, hair-gelled lying shallow bastard and what does it get you?

I get the real impression that they are building a love together, but he still wishes that love was with the mother of his children. He still wishes I could love him the way she does.

Yeah yeah sure sure.

I am starting to believe that Sundance and Barbie are so compatible! She loves him with that gaga love he wants so badly.

NRE. Worshiping his false exterior that he works so very hard to maintain.

She doesn't rake him over the coals, wanting him to be more deep and real, she accepts him the way he is.

Carma, she doesn't see the real him! And he'll try his damndest never to show it.

At this point I suppose she'd even forgive him for the lies he told her in the beginning. She may even know about them, by now -- I think he's really opened up to her.

That is you speculating again. Just yesterday he lied to you about staying overnight with her! He is a compulsive liar, lying when it doesn't even serve him. Just for the heck of it! I have 0% doubt he lies to her as much as he lies to you.
 
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