Boundaries vs. Coercive Manipulation

LadyMacbeth

New member
My husband Macbeth and I are relatively new to polyamoury and have found ourselves involved in some wonderful relationships and are in an "N" type situation. I have a boyfriend who is essentially monogomous, he has a girlfriend who is in a polyamorous relationship with her live in boyfriend. I am concerned that he (the boyfriend of my husband's girlfriend) is being manipulative and controlling and masking it as healthy boundaries.

Here is the situation, the boyfriend (we will call him B2) is involved in his own separate primary relationship. However, he is placing multiple restrictions on J (my husband's girlfriend) with daily shifting boundaries, with the rationale that her dates with my husband make him "feel bad." Here are the list of changes, first it was "you can't touch each other below the waist" then "you can touch each other below the waist, but need to limit your contact" then "you can proceed with no restrictions." Immediately after that it was "you can have overnights." Then, "you can't have overnights" followed by "you can only see each other once a week and not in our house" followed by "you can't see each other at all for a few weeks until I feel better."

Now, I understand each couple goes about arranging parameters in their own ways. However, he holds her to entirely different expectations that he is willing to place on himself. Eg, his girlfriend spends the night with him at their house, while J is there, J has no say related to his relationship. His rationale in asking them to not see each other is that it makes him "feel bad" and he "can't think clearly." He wants two week hiatus, with a "trial date" to follow, with the data being that they can continue to see each other on a limited basis if he "feels better" about it.

This all seems extremely emotionally manipulative. My husband is an emotional wreck and the shifting boundaries (they change on a daily basis) are creating great distress in almost all aspects of our lives. He loves this woman, and so do I...I think she is being emotionally abused.

Any thoughts would be helpful...
 
Sorry to hear this..major red flags with this guy for sure. I'd say he has a classic case of "control freak" going on not to mention some serious double standards. This is a situation that your husband's girlfriend is going to have to take on. If she can't work through this with her boyfriend now, the chances of her being healthy and enjoying her relationships presently and in the future seems pretty slim.

No one likes to be told what to do, but I think it is time to sit down with her and point out the negatives in the relationship she has with her boyfriend. If she can't figure things out than maybe it's time to give her some space for your husband's own health?

Sorry to hear this
Peace and Love
Mono
 
I agree 100% with Mono. It almost sounds to me like this guy gets his jollies from emotionally manipulating his g/f and her partners.

Those "rules" aren't logical or reasonable relationship rules. They're cat and mouse games, meant to keep the other couple from being able to find any balance.

It might be time for your husband to decide if this is a relationship that he wants to / can be a part of.
 
Agreed

Even as hard as it is when yoou truly care about someone, I totally agree with Mono & Cris.
There's a heap of toxic immaturity & insecurity circulating there and I'd be explaining that to the GF. That is was simply too much for me and unhealthy for everyone involved. Maybe things with her situation will change in the future - but for now - sorry - got to go. Best wishes.
 
I personally couldn't deal with someone that had boundaries that didn't make sense, because honestly, I feel like I would be the one that ended up hurt and alone in the end. Okay, maybe not alone, but without that partner. I think you three should sit down go through all of your feelings and opinions in a controlled and rational manner. You or your husband can't make her decisions for her, you can only tell her of your concern for her and how it's effecting you.
 
Sounds like a load of insecurity problems to me. Finding the core of the problem, probably a fear of losing her, might help but if he is just being an ass well, then that isn't likely to change.

Sounds like everyone needs to sit down and have a very candid talk. The bf needs to realize that ignoring the problem by stopping her dates is not actually dealing with the problem but instead feeding it and that by doing so he may very well push her away instead.
 
I agree with everyone on this. I thinks calicowgirl voiced what I think the most though in that all of you should sit down and clarify what he wants for boundaries. That way you can get it straight from him. Who knows what got lost in translation.
If anything you could also tell him how you see a double standard in his boundaries and let him know how it affects all of you. It sounds like he is apprehensive about her finding someone new and getting controlling because of it. Perhaps there is a way to ease his mind if you were to all ask him what his concerns are. It could be that he wants to be okay with it all and is in the moment but then becomes overwhelmed and pulls her back.

She is not a puppet and that is not okay, but what WOULD work when he is feeling like that? To me it sounds like she needs to be a bit more firm in a loving way with him about her own boundaries. A little reassurance could go along way. Especially coming from her.

I tend to be similar to this guy. Pushing him up against a wall and telling him he is a "control freak" is not going to be helpful if you want this woman in your life. A little compassion would go along way. When I feel like that its because I feel out of control and the situation is too big for me. Usually some reassurance and kind words of understanding go along way as I want others to be happy, I just struggle to get there myself sometimes within that.
 
Thanks all for your feedback. This was how I perceived the situation, but a trying to get a bit of space and objectivity. A couple more details.

First, my husband, his girlfriend J, and the B2 met for several hours yesterday to talk things out. My husband was shocked to discover that after three or so hours he was "drawn in" by the B2's rationale. The rationale for taking the two week hiatus from the relationship was, again, that he feels anxious and "can't think straight" when they are together. Additionally, he blames J for his feelings and holds her responsible for making him feel better, and has said things like, "if you don't give up your overnights, that proves to me you aren't committed to our relationship."

I offered to be present at the meeting, having a similar vested interest in the health of all relationships, and B2 panicked because of my profession (I am a doctoral clinical psychologist) because he didn't want to be "analyzed." I have determined that he didn't want someone calling BS on the behavior.

I have had several discussions with J indicating my concerns about the controlling nature of the behavior. She has stated she wants the trial separation to be "one last chance" for B2 to shape up his act. I have expressed my concern that giving one more concession (there have been endless concessions) is simply a reinforcement of the behavior and will likely encourage continued behavior. And, he will certainly be more "nice" because he will be getting what he wants, compliance.

Fuming and sad...
 
I have determined that he didn't want someone calling BS on the behavior.
That's what it sounds like to me, as well.

I'm so sorry that you're going through this, even incidentally as the support for your husband and his g/f. Just based on what you've written, it seems as if all would be better off separated from B2 and maybe he'll find a relationship more suited to his needs.

My sympathies.
 
Okay, this goes far beyond what I identify in with in this guy. He really is a bit on the personality disorder side of things it seems.

I see no reason why the last chance can't be all of you talking about it one more time. After that, if he is going to continue trying to control the situation then I would agree that mcbeth would need to really consider what he wants from all this and whether or not he can respect being with a woman who let's someone control her and their relationship.
 
Thanks for all the comments, everyone.

It really is a messy situation, right now. J is feeling very caught. Their relationship has been rocky for a few months, partly due to a VERY minor mess up on her part, but his reaction has been way out of proportion and has led to a lot of difficulties. She's really starting to see that, and we had a very good private talk last night after the 11 hour talk between the three of us. She feels she needs to try this one last stab at seeing if he's willing and able to work on their relationship. I'm supportive of her, but I don't have any faith in his ability to be anything other than a selfish manipulator.

I'm doing everything I can to keep her from being isolated by him. I know that she and I will be able to keep ourselves intact through this. I actually feel for him, since he's sabotaging himself and doesn't see how. I don't feel TOO bad for him, though. He's making his own bed.
 
I'm doing everything I can to keep her from being isolated by him. I know that she and I will be able to keep ourselves intact through this. I actually feel for him, since he's sabotaging himself and doesn't see how. I don't feel TOO bad for him, though. He's making his own bed.
Good for you. Honestly when I read through more of the story, the warning bell that sounds in my head is "abuser". That is based on my own history, of course, but I know that the goal of most abusers (whether physical or emotional) is to isolate the victim until she has no one to rely on but her abuser. I think making sure that she is not isolated by him is a good thing ... and I hope that she can stand strong and that your relationship will survive.

Good luck to all of you!
 
Thanks, Crisare. Lady Macbeth and I have been thinking the same thing, and with her history, she's been afraid of the possibility as well. She's trying to be cautious about inaccurately interpreting his actions, but at this point I really don't think she is.

During our talk to figure out what we were going to do about salvaging both relationships, I found myself getting sucked into his control. Later on, when we were moving into the negotiation phase, he had to leave to go and pick up his other girlfriend (who was going to be joining us). As soon as he left, it was like a veil was lifted, and I realized what had been going on. I was angry at myself for both being fooled, and for giving up everything that I had been so adamant about before we started. When he came back, I could tell he was shocked and confused, and felt like he was suddenly talking to a different person, since I dropped back to my stance of not wanting to just give up all of my control in my relationship. We ended up with no agreement on what we were going to be doing, which was fine by me. I have no intention of just letting him control my actions and feelings.

In his long diatribe at the beginning, he listed a bunch of issues, some valid, most not. He basically blames her for ALL of the problems in their relationship, admits no fault or any contribution to it, said that she could obviously not work on two relationships at once, and said that he didn't care about my feelings. It basically reaffirmed that he has completely bankrupted himself to me, both trust-wise, and as being worthy of my respect.

I'm torn, because I think she needs to leave him. Not for me, although she would be with me, but for herself. Fortunately, she sees what's going on. I'm doing everything I can to keep her spirits up, and keep her focused. She's been so confused by him, since he seems to have changed into a completely different person since we started dating. I keep telling her that he hasn't changed, she just hasn't had an opportunity to see the real him before.

Thanks, everyone, for their kind words and support. I'll post updates as it progresses. Cleaning out my office now, to make a guest room . . .:)
 
Updates

This past Wednesday we had what my monogamous boyfriend has humorously called, "poly summit #2." I sat down with my husband, his gf J, and her bf B2 as he has been called. I absolutely committed myself to be open, objective, and to try to honestly hear his point of view.

It went well, although failed to change many of my opinions. After a five hour round table, I left feeling a slight bit more optimistic, but not much. Basically, I left feeling like he wasn't necessarily being emotionally abusive, but being narcissistic. He was less rigid than I thought and seemed willing and able to listen to alternative points of view. SHE disturbed me with being very placating and taking ownership for "twisting my opinion of him." His ultimate lack of empathy and sense that others should take care of his own emotions for him was startling. Two quotes he gave were telling,

"People always see their own feelings as most important" (Yikes!!)
"All I've asked of J is that if she knows her behavior will upset me, to not do it." (Double Yikes!!)

So, in response to quote number one, I looked him straight in the eye and said calmly, "That BS, maybe YOU see your feelings as most important, but not everyone does that."

In response to the second, I asked for a repetition because I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing. I was indeed hearing it correctly, and stated at some length what I perceived to be wrong with the statement, particularly since he didn't seem to feel that it was also his responsibility to do the same, and had admitted that his feelings were erratic and changed daily.

I wasn't easy on any of them, and also owned my own stuff. They are all taking trips for the holidays, and a little time for all of us to independently reflect can't do anything but good. My husband is still dealing with intense grief, after having a wonderful few weeks of regularly scheduled dates and overnights and beautiful NRE that hadn't crossed any lines. Now he is being prescribed an indefinite separation and after two weeks, will be "allowed" a two hour lunch where they are not permitted to have any physical contact. Then B2 will determine, based on how he "feels", what the prescription for the next stint of time will be. Macbeth is concerned that it will be several months to get back to where they were, which hurts because he and J did nothing wrong, crossed no boundaries, and it is all based on B2's "feelings" of discomfort when they are together.

The piece that I am wrestling with is this...B2 (who has been poly much longer than I) keeps saying that he feels justified because "they were already having relationship problems and should never have added another person." This may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that they did, and now J and my husband are hurting. I can't help but think that his imposed prescriptions will only serve to further damage their relationship, extend Macbeth's and J's NRE indefinitely as "star crossed lovers," and ultimately lead to their demise.

But...I have done everything I can. I will continue to call a spade a spade and try to prevent J from being isolated. I have a pandora bracelet with charms for all of the member's of my circle, it's like my "promise ring." She and I will go shopping together to find a bead to represent her to add to my bracelet.
 
Dealing with folks who don't know whether they are on head or horseback is a huge challenge. Trying to work through it sucks everyone in and is a major drain on any positive energy that could be there. The commitment you are all showing to trying to make this work is highly admirable and I hope that something good comes of it for you.
 
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