What does it take for him to see a problem?

scarletzinnia

New member
One thing that my hubby and I (married 14 years, three kids) have repeatedly butted heads over (that is an understatement) have been the motivations and ethics of a couple of his partners. This is something I have gotten hypersensitive about because I am just so sick of the same damned issue. Which is, he simply does not want to recognize it if someone else wants to cause trouble in our relationship.

The latest situation involves a woman he dated briefly, whom he ended up as just friends with because he (and I) didn't trust her to be forthcoming about her sexual safety practices and partners. She threw a fit when he told her that a sexual relationship between them wasn't ever going to happen and refused to talk to him for months, They eventually reconnected as penpals and it looked like they were going to be able to restart their in-person friendship too, she was dating a lot and seemed to be finally OK with them just being friends. Then she threw another fit in email where she accused me of being abusive and controlling of him, because I hadn't been OK with him sleeping with her either when we found out that she had failed to disclose things to hubby that he needed to know for his own safety (and mine, and our other partners). She also revealed that she had been talking to former partners of both of ours, people she barely knew, digging for dirt about our relationship, and even claimed that a former lover of mine, who was still my friend, had trashed my character to her, which I did not believe for a second, and still don't. It was really, really ugly.

I wanted my hubby to end the connection immediately, which he was unwilling to do, and continued emailing with her for a while, telling her she was way off base about me and us, etc., but he never really got through to her and she just continued with her drama until he stopped writing.

What bothers me now is that he cannot seem to to see that his "friend" had any negative motivations towards me and our relationship. I know this might sound insane to some. It does to me. I have asked him, just what does a person have to do for you to question their ethics and recognize that they are trying to cause trouble, short of a confession that they are trying to do just that? He doesn't know.

Is there a word for someone who wants to cling to a positive opinion of someone no matter what they say and do? Even if the person attacks someone you care about? This has happened before, this is not the first problematic person he has dated, in fact, we had an even worse situation in the past.

I would utterly reject a partner or a friend who pulled what this woman pulled and I would have done so right away too. He may no longer talk to her, but he doesn't have a problem at all with her ethics, he thinks she just got upset but basically meant well.

I am trying to let go of all this, but I just can't. I feel I need him to recognize what he was dealing with, and he just refuses. This makes me feel very unsafe.
 
Is there a word for someone who wants to cling to a positive opinion of someone no matter what they say and do? Even if the person attacks someone you care about? This has happened before, this is not the first problematic person he has dated, in fact, we had an even worse situation in the past.

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

I suppose the word one would use depends on one's own attitudes and expectations of others. So, your husband may be a generous spirit always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and to hope for the best, or he may simply be naive, or worse.

If he tends to be generous toward others, that may be a good thing on the whole, all else being equal. I don't know your relationship, but I suspect that in your years together you've benefited from that generosity more than once.

(I know I've benefited from the forgiveness, patience and tolerance of others, most especially "Vix", my partner in a 20-year marriage.)

As for whether you should feel unsafe now, do consider that, even if you think he is too willing to give the benefit of the doubt, he did in fact cut off communication with her . . . eventually.

It may be that, in the fullness of time, he'll figure out how to temper his judgment of other people, and to recognize that it is possible to be critical of another person even as you hope for the best for and from them.
 
What does she need to tell you other than negative STD results and that she uses condoms for sex? You weren't discriminating against her due to ignorance about STDs and because she has casual sex, were you? Why are you deciding who your husband sleeps with anyway? Why aren't you letting him make his own decisions where he puts his penis?
 
She has genital herpes, which she didn't tell him about until after they had messed around. He, and I, made the decision that was something we did not want to risk, especially because they had dated for months and she had never told him. But he still valued his friendship with hHer, just did not want to proceed with a sexual relationship.

It would be nice if we could avoid getting bogged down in discussion of whether my husband should have slept with her or not. He was very relieved at the time that they hadn't had intercourse yet, and relieved when he retested and was fine. And sleeping with her hadn't been a big priority for him at the time anyway, since he already had multiple relationships.
 
Are you sure you don't have herpes? Routine STD tests do not include screening for herpes. Either way, let him deal with his own relationships.
 
He DID deal with his own relationship, as I have already said. I, and the other people in our sexual network, had some input, as is perfectly appropriate since our sexual healh was at stake too. No, we do not have it, we have both been tested for it multiple times. Not everybody on this board is a newbie with no experience, and I would appreciate if you would stop treating me as one.
 
Ah well, you see, the more experienced people generally understand that the vast majority of sexually active people have or will have herpes and/or genital want viruses so they tend not to be as bothered about sleeping with someone with herpes with precautions such as contraception. We have people on this board who have herpes and sleep with more than one person without a condom and those people also test negative. Anyway, it's up to you if you want to discriminate against people with a relatively harmful virus most of us will end up with. Many people do.

Back to your husband and his partner selection. Set boundaries where you do not share the same space or hear about his other toxic relationships and leave it to him. If he absolutely cannot manage to stop his relationships negatively affecting each other because he chooses toxic partners, that is something you might want to take up with him.

If I was poly and married, felt splitting absolutely wasn't an option but my husband continued to let my toxic metamours affect us, or he couldn't stick to agreements about how we prevent harm to our relationship, the only viable option would be to close the relationship. If I feel the only way to stop it was to actively manage his other relationships by imposing restrictions and setting the pace, I would opt for closing the relationship to work on us.
 
Even if she and her husband were fine with her having herpes, the ex girlfriend decided to not disclose her status (lie of omission) until after some sort of sexual contact and allow them to make their choice on that. That on it's own makes it understandable for that relationship to have ended.
 
Hmm, yeah, but the thing about disclosure of infectious diseases is that if you're around a bunch of people who have flawed knowledge of your particular disease, you are less likely to disclose. Now, I'm not necessarily saying it is right, but it's understandable. The risk of giving someone herpes in the absemce of a break out and using a condom is tiny, but it's still someone's risk to consent to taking. But if i had herpes and someone was spouting bullshit stats at me about transmission or generally misrepresenting the risk, it would piss me off big time, and I'd probably shout at those doing that.
 
Even if she and her husband were fine with her having herpes, the ex girlfriend decided to not disclose her status (lie of omission) until after some sort of sexual contact and allow them to make their choice on that. That on it's own makes it understandable for that relationship to have ended.

I agree, the worst thing was not disclosing it, what if she had given it to him and his partner was pregnant? It is a pretty vile disease for a pregnant woman to get.
 
I could be wrong, ok? But here's my thoughts on it....

This specific woman is now out of the picture. Shoo. Fine. Let that part go. Zero in on how to be before his NEXT partner arrives someday.

ISSUE NOW IS:

Your husband has a higher tolerance for X behaviors in his other partners than you do. Although he ultimately will do a "softer" and "slower" let go once he realizes this partner is not for him or worth his time, you prefer he do it "sooner" and "harder" so you can be free of worry/stress or at least REDUCE your stress.

You prefer he be able to recognize (objectionable behavior) sooner as troublesome to the marriage, because while he's free to pick his partners, you are along for the ride here. You don't pick his partners but are affected by their behavior.

  • You are bothered his judgement of people's characters not being as quick on the uptake as you.
  • You would like him to improve on that skill so you can feel emotionally safe and be stress free/lower stress.


COULD DO NEXT: ARTICULATE OBJECTIONABLE BEHAVIORS
I have asked him, just what does a person have to do for you to question their ethics and recognize that they are trying to cause trouble, short of a confession that they are trying to do just that? He doesn't know.

Then he could take the time to discern so he can know and be able to articulate.

To me it sounds like you and spouse could make list of objectionable behavior you both agree is "objectionable" then. Take the time to articulate it. It could work for him and for you in dating new people.

Next agree on a number for your hard limit red zone. That many? They are just gone.

Figure out your soft limit "yellow caution" zone number. Potential partner clocks (X) checkmarks -- the one dating that person either works on the skills with them or lets that partner go. Hopefully they improve the skills and things pans out rather than chronic problems.

Pick a number that is "fast enough" to you, but "slow enough" to him that you both can live with for each zone.

You/He could show the potential the list of objectionable behavior before getting involved with him. They agree to play ball, great. They don't? Time and energy saved all around. Win for all.

Examples of objectionable behavior Partner X could do (here I guess from your post):

  • not forthcoming about sexual safety practices and partners?
  • no recent labs shown?
  • temper tantrums rather than (preferred conflict resolution method)?
  • bad mouthing spouse's personality or preferences rather than feedback on behavior done/not done?
  • "fishing" for data?
  • lies?
  • trying to break you up?
  • Other stuff?


Is there a word for someone who wants to cling to a positive opinion of someone no matter what they say and do? Even if the person attacks someone you care about?

"Generous to a fault" is the idiom I think you could be after.

Being generous is great, but taking it to the extreme where it hurts self or others -- no so much.

I am trying to let go of all this, but I just can't. I feel I need him to recognize what he was dealing with (with her specifically? Or in general?), and he just refuses. This makes me feel very unsafe. you seem to

Perhaps he'd be more willing to work with you if you let specific lady go. So he can feel better with his memories of her how he likes them. She's GONE, so you can afford to drop that part of it.

And instead focus on listing "what objectionable behaviors are" in general for the next partner(s) to come along so you can minimize these hoohas that you don't like in future since you've had this merry-go-round ride before and don't like it? Working together to move it forward?

Then you both get something to feel good about in the short term (he gets to keep his memories, you get a list defined) AND in the long term ( less hoohas for both)?

My 2 cents,
Galagirl
 
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With condom use and in the absence of an outbreak, the risk to the wife is tiny. She probably weighed up that tiny chance of transmission against discrimination against her based on flawed science and taking that tiny chance won. Again, I'm not saying it is right, if I had a lifelong STD I would disclose, I think, but I can understand the "lesser of two evils" logic.

I don't actually know if I've got hsv. The last test I had was negative, some time ago but the NHS only offer tests in very specific circumstances now. I've never had anything that resembles an outbreak and neither have my last few partners, as far as I know. I can get a test privately, but I really don't see the point. It doesn't make scientific sense for me. I wouldn't change my sexual practices if I did have it. I know my current partner wouldn't want to start using condoms again.
 
It is so not ok to be fluent-bonded with (or perhaps even sleep with at all) people who does not practice safe sex and are secretive/not upfront. It is not the first time I hear of people behaving like this. Once a whole network had to do HIV tests due to a women "forgetting to mention" that she had a boyfriend whom she were fluent bonded with, too, and who was not tested and not informed... it was like the worst case scenario of the "Opening up" safer sex chapter. Protect yourself from "teenagers" who only want the fun and not the responsability of an adult.

It is also not ok to bring lots of drama into other relationships. However, I belive one should work on this together. When I finally dropped my "ex", it was partly due to the relation causing my husband to feel angry and stressed out. My husband has had his veto's here and there in regards to him, party due to this drama. Before we embarded on poly, I veto'ed a women who clearly did not know what she was doing, I just sensed that she could potentially give us lots of grief (she claimed to not be interested in my husband, yet started acting jealous of me in public etc.).

If the deal is "everybody decices for themselves", it can not be any fluent bondedness. Period.
 
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GalaGirl, thanks so much for your post, you have some amazing suggestions that I will be discussing with my hubby over the weekend. I am wondering, though, based on what I have written, would you say that my hubby's friend was trying to break us up? You did include that on your list of her dealbreaking behaviors.

I certainly feel she was trying to cause trouble between us, at minimum. I don't think she was a classic "cowgirl" in that she wanted to break us up so she could have a monogamous relationship with him. But do you think someone might ever try to break up a marriage out of sheer spite? That's how it feels to me. To me, when you tell a friend that their spouse is abusing them (because I wasn't supportive of him sleeping with her, I suppose), that is a loaded word and implies that you think the friend should leave the marriage. Maybe that word is unusually loaded for me because I used to counsel battered women. I am not sure.

Would you all mind keeping this on topic and not getting bogged down in STD-related discussion? I think most of us would agree on what sexually responsible behavior for a polyamorist looks like. Thanks so much.
 
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Of course someone would try to break up a marriage out of sheer spite. It would prove she is incredebly attractive and irresistable.
 
I have no idea if the ex was trying to break up the marriage or not. I am not there. :confused: But it sounds like it could be taken that way.

To me? It doesn't matter going forward if this specific woman was or wasn't. She's an ex now.

If the new focus is both of you creating a tool together to help you and your DH identify objectionable behavior in new potentials/new partners, you may as well put ALL your things on there. Then he (or you) can just go down the list: Does my new person do this? That? Yes? No?

Hopefully in time the tool is no longer needed -- the skills will have grown.

If some future potential (tries to break up marriage) because they are (cowgirl/cowboy, spiteful, nutjob, whatever)? The motivation behind it doesn't matter. Because on the receiving end of the behavior? At least one of you guys would object, right? Bring out the discernment tool! Use it to help you both discern together and come to agreement together that -- yes... that person is doing THESE behaviors. Those are objectionable behaviors. So is it a yellow zone or red zone?

It isn't about evaluations of people's personalities or preferences -- your DH being called "overgenerous" or you being called "controlling" any more. Using the tool is keeping it on evaluation of the behavior done/not done.

You could worry less about being "right about that woman!" and more about being in "right relationship" with your husband. He's here, she's not.

I know it could take some time for you to give yourself permission to get past this ex's behaviors. (Note I don't say over her behavior.)

But you could remind yourself she IS an ex. Yes, some of her behaviors were awful. But the more time between you and her behaviors, the better you will feel. Try to hang in there as the time passes and try to let go of spending too much time trying to answer "Why?" stuff. Why's the blind person not able to see? Because they are blind. Why did the exGF do wacky behavior then? Because she was wacky then. And she is ex NOW.

You seem to want OFF her merry-go-round... so don't climb back on by spending too much of your thinking behavior on her. Think all you need to think, finish thinking, then put it down and lay it aside so you can move past it.

That's how it feels to me. To me, when you tell a friend that their spouse is abusing them (because I wasn't supportive of him sleeping with her, I suppose), that is a loaded word and implies that you think the friend should leave the marriage. Maybe that word is unusually loaded for me because I used to counsel battered women. I am not sure.

That bit? Before you run down the road with it, you could pause to check for the outcome.

If she's calling you "abusive" and you are actually doing abusive behaviors -- fair enough.
  • She could call appropriate offices to report it rather than tell friends.
  • She could offer DH shelter, help.

She doesn't though, does she?

If she's calling you "abusive" to play the "changing spotlight" game?
  • Make it be about examining YOUR behaviors?
  • Get you and DH riled/up distracted in dealing with YOUR emotions?

What's the result?
  • Nobody is examining HER behaviors too closely now. People busy elsewhere. Teflon kid slides again.


Since DH dumped her? I'm going to go with Teflon kid games. Avoidy dance. Not being responsive and not helping to have constructive conversation to sort whatever out.

You could improve your interpersonal skills to spot that game and put the brakes on your emotions and keep the focus on behavior done/not done.

So could DH. Maybe "spotlight game" is something to put on your list? Because anyone blocking clear, honest, constructive communication is not HELPING anything.

Hang in there! Talk to your spouse and sort yourselves out.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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Can you just clarify what the two evils are in your mind?

  1. Not getting the sex she wanted
  2. Giving herpes to someone

Are these the two 'evils' we're comparing?
1. The tiny chance of giving someone herpes.
2. Being discriminated against due to incorrect beliefs about herpes.
 
Ok, I swore I wasn't going to do this but it is just too ridiculous to not comment on.

So London, let me get this straight. By your logic, my husband had no right to change his mind about having sex with his friend because she has a incurable STD, because by doing so, he was "discriminating" against her.

So you are saying that my husband has no sexual agency, that he is obligated to sleep with any woman who wants him, no matter what the risks to his health could be.

Tell me, have you yourself knowingly started a sexual relationship with a person with genital herpes? How about HIV? If not, why not?
 
It's very difficult to catch herpes. People who have a basic understanding of science know this. So yes, I would have sex with someone who had herpes. After all, its a virus that the vast majority of people will end up with like genital warts. I use condoms with all new partners, transmission when there is no outbreak is incredibly low anyway. I would fluid bond with someone who tested positive for herpes after some time.

HIV is also very difficult to catch. I would have a partner with HIV but I would take simple precautions during sex such as condoms, lube and ensuring that their CD4 and viral load stay in a healthy range. People who stay healthy are less likely to pass on the virus. Can you believe that there are HIV positive women who are married, fluid bonded and have kids with men who are HIV negative?

So basically OP, no, I don't discriminate against people with lifelong STDs because I understand science. I know that understanding something based on fact rather than what your mates told you is a ridiculous concept to you, but really, education rocks, man.
 
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