in over my head

Dunno if J's tried this, but I've heard that doing a bunch of her chores for her does wonders for a woman's libido. :)

And it could be a communication (not enough verbal/emotional intimacy) problem. Or like Snowbunny mentioned, could be that J's not that wound up about it, and not inclined to search out possible ways to get A interested. Do A and J have date nights? Just wondering.

A should probably flat-out ask J if this is a problem for him, and if it is, then A and J ought to start seeing a (preferably poly-friendly) counselor. Possibly a sex counselor, depending on what the problem turns out to be.

In a nutshell, if you want to make someone feel special, you have to do special things for them. But A needs to exert a little faith and effort too -- if this is a problem for J. Something for A to investigate, I think. Nothing blocks the solution to a problem quite like assumptions do. So first order of business is an in-depth discussion about it between A and J.

Having said all this, it occurs to me that this is really something that A and J need to work out between the two of them. Your place is to be a good friend and lover toward A, and a good friend toward J. Their bedroom issues are really out of scope of what's appropriate for you to try to fix. If A asks for your counsel, perhaps you might direct her to this thread or something along those lines.

Hope things continue to go well.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Good advice Kevin. Thanks. Most of that is beyond the scope of what I ever intended to discuss on here. I've tried to leave J out of it and only discuss my feelings and how I relate to A. J has mostly only figured in peripherally. That's also true in the real world here. I try not to pry into their relationship and although we've met a few times, it hasn't led to much closeness, just chit chat. Now though, he finds time for her to see me and even came to my house. That's a big change.
 
I would like still more perspectives from other hinge people on how they divide their time and affections.

This blog section is more for journaling and doesn't get much feedback (Kevin excepted). I'm sure you'd get a lot more opinions on this topic if you started a thread about it in the Poly Relationships section. Kevin is just one guy with just one life experience.
 
True, true.

We actually started out in the intro board, then moved to the blog board. Neither is as well-suited for giving/receiving advice as the Poly Relationships Corner, it's likely to attract more people's notice (and invite more comments). If we start a new thread there, I suggest providing a link to this thread for any who desire a thorough background.

I think it was inevitable that J's relationship with A would become something you'd wonder and ask A about, as well as something A might want to start talking about with you. You can still be respectful of their space and offer help at the same time. Let A know that while you consider this a matter between her and J, you're still willing to offer your thoughts if she's interested, and, do consider directing her towards the discussion here.

For the moment, I don't detect a big problem but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask A about it if it's troubling you.

Regards,
KDT
 
Good advice Kevin. Thanks. Most of that is beyond the scope of what I ever intended to discuss on here. I've tried to leave J out of it and only discuss my feelings and how I relate to A. J has mostly only figured in peripherally. That's also true in the real world here. I try not to pry into their relationship and although we've met a few times, it hasn't led to much closeness, just chit chat. Now though, he finds time for her to see me and even came to my house. That's a big change.

I've followed your blog with interest, as an objective side of your personality seems to come through - more than most writers here usually convey. I've remarked before about the fact that you happen to be the most poly person in this relationship, and that seems to be coming through loud and clear as time goes on.

I think the root of your concern touches on the heart of many of the fears and conflicts that poly relationships bring out. The dark underbelly of many of them is the idea that couples who reach out to poly are, in fact, potentially in a position where they can upgrade from their current partner. The insinuation in your concerns is that the wife (A - who after all these posts could use more than a single letter for a name, lol) has romantically shut down on her husband and that there won't be any going back for her. There's no motivation for her to do that, and why would there be? You've taken that position in her heart and mind, and any efforts with him would be superficial and meaningless to her.

And that's what it comes down to, isn't it? Motivations.

Is your girlfriend really in a poly mindset? Based on your writing, all evidence points to her being resolutely monogamous. It's easier for the poly label to be stuck on things here, but words are always a distant second compared to actions and motivations.

Is that a problem though, her being monogamous with you while also being married to someone she tacitly tolerates romantically? It doesn't appear to be with the husband....for now. And those words "for now" are where the eyebrows furrow and the mind starts wondering.

Why isn't that bothering him? Is he fine living in a dead-battery marriage with a wife who doesn't think about him (except as the father of her kids, good friend - and possibly a paycheck)? So that's the question you really want an answer to, I'd think. Is it not bothering him because he's madly in love and thinks things will get better (highly unlikely) - or is he already resigned to an outcome where he's left with the short end of the stick? Perhaps he's a family man who believes in the sanctity of marriage and wants to provide a stable home regardless of how the marriage itself is functioning? Or possibly is he someone who lives vicariously through enjoying the exploits of his partner (cuckold mentality, etc)?

These are questions no one has to immediately care about, depending on the type of person lurking underneath the generous time-giving man you're dealing with right now. Is he going to simmer and eventually blow his top, and demand/expect changes to the way things are? Or, is he going to fade quietly into the night recognizing that he isn't the man for her?

My suspicion is that were there no children involved, she'd already be living with you.

I think out of everything, the sooner she comes to realize she's a 'one man woman' the sooner things will come to their natural conclusion. Or, if he's really okay with being the odd man out, it'll just stay the way it is until the children are nearly grown. Which might be the worst outcome for everyone involved.

There are some other life story writers in here in a similar relationship, who met the man of their dreams after they met the one they married. I wouldn't call their lives charmed by any stretch of the imagination, but they press on in the dual relationships for reasons other than being in love with their spouse. You might poke around and see the outcomes aren't too different from the one your girlfriend is headed for.

On your side of it though, those questions above are extremely meaningful at some point. How they get answered will dictate the course of your future. A little thing like 'currently getting 100% of the affection' will eventually mean a great deal more. I think it speaks highly of your intelligence to wonder about the things you've written on.
 
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Yeah, could be this is a case of serial monogamy that we're looking at -- dressed up to look like polyamory to the casual observer.

I suppose many cases of "bad polyamory" do look like that. Cases where someone (e.g. A) wants something better (e.g. pcflvly) to replace what they have (e.g. J), but have a cognitive dissonance about it and don't want to see it that way (e.g. due to their being married with children).

If that's what's happening here, then it's an "aha moment" that A must experience for herself before any objective steps can be taken regarding it. For me to make a clear judgment call I'd need quite a bit more in-depth info about A and J -- especially including the story and situation from each of those two persons' point of view. In the meantime we can only postulate, and ponder what pcflvly's appropriate role is in all of this.

Regards,
Kevin.
 
Good points and questions. Thank you for commenting. Everything proceeding apace here with quite a few changes. The big one is that I introduced J to a woman and they are becoming good friends.

I hooked them up for several reasons. One was that he was feeling a lot of insecurity about A's affection for me. Another was that I felt guilty because I thought we had had some parity on the affection front. Finding out otherwise had thrown me for a loop.

I've met J five or six times now and it always made me uncomfortable. We were becoming masters of the awkward silence. However, introducing him to this other woman made me feel more on an equal footing with him so I invited him out for a drink, just the two of us.

I wanted to talk about my motivations for finding him a date. In fact, that motivation was a desire to see him feeling better about himself so that he would be a better partner for my girlfriend. He was somewhat taken aback when I told him that but then observed that they had been closer since he met the other woman.

I explained my motivation in the simplest terms, that long after I'm gone, he will still be there for her. He wholeheartedly agreed with that and said, "I knew what I was getting into when I married her twenty years ago." So I don't think he's going to 'fade into the night'.

I'm not planning to fade into the night either. At almost five months now, this is the third longest relationship of my life and it is extremely significant to me. Despite that and despite my strong feelings for her, which I've expressed over and over again in this blog, I still don't want her full time. It suits me just fine that she has a husband and a place to go home to.

Another piece of the puzzle is that I may soon have the opportunity to relocate. It's a distinct possibility for the near future. And while I hope she'll come visit me wherever I live, I'm not taking her with me.

I discussed all this with J and I hope that I listened well to him too. The one thing he said that does stand out was, "She's not planning to give you up anytime soon."

I waited until he was good and drunk before I popped the big question I had been waiting all evening to ask. I said, "Now that you understand my motivations, would you be more comfortable with A occasionally, and not on any kind of schedule, spending the night with me again?"

He replied, "I think that will be okay."
 
That sounds like good news to me. :)
 
Another month is almost past and our adventure proceeds. I hardly know where to begin. Probably where I left off :)

No more overnights yet. A is on a solo vacation in a tropical paradise and the two or three weeks before she left were extremely busy for her as she had to bank hours at work and plan her adventure. I didn't do too well with her not being as available. I don't like having a needy feeling for her. I just want to be satisfied with the time we do share together. I missed her so much though that it made me cry. Twice. I've felt tears welling up for her before but this was the first time they actually rolled down my cheeks.

Meanwhile, J and M are getting along well. I helped M with the move into her new house a couple weeks ago and she told me, "I don't want to meet A." So I was quite surprised when I saw that they added each other as friends on FB and even more surprised when I noticed them chatting on there.

The next big surprise was about a week later when J sent me a friend request. I accepted of course. it took me a week to finally thank him for the add. His reply, "Hey no problem. I guess we are all family now, right?" with a smile tacked on the end.

I answered, "I hope so."
 
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Sounds like folks are warming up to each other. ;)
 
This might be the last entry. It's been fun.

"I pretty much got the message the last time I saw you. When you told me that you were going off the pill after the trip. I can read between your lines. I know you really well. Everything changed after I went out with J that night. I don't know if it was something I said to him or just that I went out with him or something completely different but you started distancing yourself then. I don't understand why you couldn't just tell me though. We're friends right? That was the condition. That we were friends. I don't want to be hurt over you. I have too many good memories of our times together. But I'm really hurt. I wait for you until you're ready for me. Always here for you, available and at your pleasure. And what great pleasure but it takes all the fun out of the rest of my time when I wonder what you feel and you're not telling me. I shouldn't have got so attached. I just fell in love with you and still love you. I'm not much for the distance though. It hurts. I got the message. "

"No one ever made love to you like I did and no one ever cried for you like I am. I don't blame you though. I've only ever been your flash in the pan. We had some real love though. We breathed together mouth to mouth. You'll always be in me."

"I must have a lot of tears for you because I've been up for an hour and there's no sign of them stopping yet. I always knew I would cry for you someday too. I felt them in me for months now. Mostly they were joy tears.All this love for you just welling up and pouring out. I'm not going to beg you for anything though. Closure? Your continued friendship? Validation? Honesty?"

"I already started to refocus. I got all my money finally. I inspired a new Neighbor to Neighbor group and am working outreach to help these poverty stricken people with their substandard housing. One hundred members who want to give in only 12 hours. So many tears in my eyes though, I'm afraid to go out. "

I don't expect to hear back from her.
 
Ohuhhhh ... pcflvly, what happened? Who is talking in these quotes? Is this A talking to you? Who was taking what pill and why did they decide to stop?

Intuitively, I get the impression that A has decided to leave you. But I have to say, I don't at all understand why. I thought things were going pretty well? Were you distancing yourself from A somehow?

Intuitively, I get the impression that something very bad is happening to you. (And to A, J, and/or M?) A break-up with A would certainly be a bad thing, but whatever it is, I am sorry and alarmed to hear about it.

I hope you'll be willing to talk a bit more about whatever's happening, but I certainly respect your privacy if it's something you'd rather not talk about. Peace and God bless in any case.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
That's me writing to A. She hasn't told me anything but she obviously decided to pull back. I would be fine with that if she could have told me but just cutting me off without any explanation. I'm not into that game. You know how much I love her. Too much. Still no reply. Someday she'll talk to me again but I don't know if I'll talk to her. Fuck.
 
That's me writing to A. She hasn't told me anything but she obviously decided to pull back. I would be fine with that if she could have told me but just cutting me off without any explanation. I'm not into that game. You know how much I love her. Too much. Still no reply. Someday she'll talk to me again but I don't know if I'll talk to her. Fuck.

Strange woman amigo, she seemed ready to dump her husband into the garbage a month or two ago - without really saying much about it. Now she's possibly doing a 180, so don't feel too surprised. Even if she starts talking again, you may want to re-evaluate your position - as you may be much more in love with her than she is with you.

In my experience, people who flip-flop their emotional states on a dime aren't trustworthy. She may have an excuse, and it may be a good one - but it doesn't matter. Completely ignoring you, knowing how you'll feel, is a rotten sign of empathy and disrespect.
 
I'm all screwed up about this. I should know better. A is a Gemini. So was my first wife. They look alike too. My first wife left me while I was out of town and made everyone keep silent about where she went. She was trying to make a clean break. That same week my sister died of Cancer. I remember how I felt then now more than ever. So now I have triggers that have clicked. I knew they were there.

The 180 happened when I went behind her back to invite her husband out for drinks. I don't know if that was the proximate cause though.

I do agree with you on the dime dance but she was fairly constant and I know she loved me... I saw it and felt it. What I've written here is all true. Believe me, I've written a lot more.

The salient thing here is that she told me in not so many words that she was dialing it back. She said that she was going off the pill after returning from her retreat. What that meant was that we wouldn't be having sex anymore. That was the last time I saw her. We made love and she left right after. I didn't ask her what she meant at the time but I knew, then denied it to myself. It wasn't until about three days ago that I fully realized the implications.
 
Okay now I understand a little better, although A's overall decision to withdraw from you remains a mystery to, well, you and me (and others I'm sure). Really sorry that happened, man. That really sucks. Don't suppose there's any chance this could be some kind of an epic miscommunication on her part? Maybe something's going on with her that she alone knows about?

I suppose that at first glance it looks like she simply decided that polyamory was wrong (or at least wrong for her, or for her and J), and that she would just stop practicing it. So she's not speaking to you at all? No emails, nothing?

Gosh I don't know what to advise. If she's not talking to you, and this radio silence of hers has been going on for a long time, then it kind of puts you in a crappy position. How long are you supposed to put your life on hold waiting for her to answer you? I guess the only logical move here is to try to detox from the whole thing and move on. If she wants to rescue her relationship with you, she'd better get right on it.

I hope you'll be able to find some peace at the end of this long gloomy tunnel. I know I can't help much beyond lending a listening ear, but I'll always be willing to do that.

With many sympathies,
Kevin T.
 
No, it's not that much of a mystery to me. I understand her. Kevin. I cried for at least four hours today. My eyes are sore. Every tear was love. I'm not sad so to speak. It's that every tear makes me realize how much I love her and I know that I love her enough to cry for days. You saw what we did together. We shared love. There's no remorse or sadness for that. It's just love and I want more. Certainly hasn't soured me on it. The tears are detox. I know that. It's different than I remember though. I love a lot differently now than I did when younger. I just love her and want her to be happy. Whatever she wants is okay with me. I gave her my friendship first. She has that with no blame and no regrets. Always.
 
That's a good attitude to have, and a very generous outlook. Perhaps if I were in your shoes I'd be tempted to react bitterly, but of course you alone must be in those shoes, and you have much knowledge that we, the mere readers of this thread, can't have. Like you said, you know her. So I don't doubt your response is appropriate for the circumstances.

I hope she'll talk to you again -- sometime.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Agreed with Kevin, it's a very generous outlook. If it's come to the end for both of you, you certainly can carry yourself with the pride of knowing you really did act with the best of intentions throughout the relationship. While I don't think you meeting with her husband for a beer was a grievous sin (I would've been happy you did it), and certainly not worth pulling back over - who can know the mind of another person and how they'll react?

You're feeling pretty emotional right now, and rightfully. In the end I think part of you will look at this more objectively and realize there were some significant flaws to this arrangement by this couple. That they in general were not ready for what an open relationship would bring to their internal dynamic, and seriously overestimated their capacity for more - unfortunately.
 
Or it could just be Mercury retrograde and everything will work out when the planet goes direct this weekend. I'm still trying to engage her but receiving nothing but evasive replies.
 
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