Not Really OK with DH/Girlfriend Having A Child

I can understand the caution around pregnancy with partners outside a marriage. Custody issues are complicated enough within monogamous settings. Even between my wife and I, when we were at a point where we didn't want kids for a few years we considered me getting a vasectomy and freezing sperm, going so far as to set an appointment for the surgery, but ultimately Ginko decided to opt for an IUD for simplicity of reversal.

With people outside the marriage, one girlfriend couldn't get an IUD to work for her and I don't consider condoms to be enough unless I'm ok with pregnancy, so we never had PIV sex. With another girlfriend, we use condoms plus IUD, while I'm considering going back to no PIV with anyone other than Ginko for simplicity. I enjoy non PIV sex more anyhow.

Once Ginko and I have had as many kids as we want I'll likely get a vasectomy. If we ever want more kids afterward there's the possibility of adoption, though that may be more complicated if we're openly poly.
 
Rory already linked to a pertinent discussion on Polyamorous Misanthrope, but in case you didn't click it I'll reiterate here:

Tubals and Vasectomies are NOT 100%, especially as time passes. Sometimes couples make the mistake of thinking , "I've had a vasectomy/tubal so we don't need to worry about unplanned pregnancy." Umm, no. It's far less likely, but it IS still possible. Just something to keep in mind.
 
Thank you. I actually did read it, as well as the comments. One stuck out more than anything. Quite informative. Still doesn't fully fit or sum up how I feel or what to do when morality is coming into play. I know I'm not the only poly person with morals. I know she's a human being. I know she has reproductive organs and no diagnosed issues if she were to try to conceive. Other than age and her biological clock, there are no physical road blocks. After 35, it becomes harder but not impossible. I acknowledge all of that.

We've weighed all the pros and the cons, and we know that a pregnancy can still happen, which is why being proactive, vocal, and talking about it now is of the utmost importance. Better to acknowledge it now than to be hit with a whammy down the line. Nothing but abstinence provides that guarantee. I've encountered people who have had tubals and partial hysterectomies but were still able to conceive.

The only feasible solution may be for the relationship to end. Sad as that is, I don't foresee a solution involving a child that DH fathers outside of our marriage that would work. In a mono relationship, that is sometimes enough to break down a marriage. That's my lone monogamous thought. I'm not willing to put my marriage or morals on the line, for a child I honestly would want nothing to do with. I hope this doesn't make me a bad person. It may sound cold and bloody terrible, but it's better than a child being here and me not acknowledging their presence, not wanting them in our home, and/or secretly wishing that my husband would terminate his rights, if we were to stay together. That scenario could play out a lot worse than breaking up now. I'm actively praying for clarity and seeking direction. Right now, that's all I can hope for. There will be no winner in this situation. :(
 
Nothing but abstinence provides that guarantee. [...]

The only feasible solution may be for the relationship to end.

What about abstinence from PIV sex while enjoying everything else, as others have mentioned? Is that something your husband and girlfriend would be comfortable with for the duration of their relationship?

Your feelings don't make you a bad person. While it'd be ideal to have known and stated your feelings before you went from a V to a triad, some feelings don't become fully known until trying things out and realizing the full implications.
 
Hmm. Just wondering - what if she became involved with another man in addition to your husband, got pregnant, wasn't sure who the father was, and decided to have the child? Would you insist on knowing the paternity? Could you live with the uncertainty of not knowing? If it turned out the other guy was the father, would you be okay and accepting, maybe even play auntie, but if it was your husband's, would you really shun the child?

I am just curious. Anyway, I believe you mentioned that she's been thinking about the possibility - but has she clearly stated what she wants?
 
Hmm. Just wondering - what if she became involved with another man in addition to your husband, got pregnant, wasn't sure who the father was, and decided to have the child? Would you insist on knowing the paternity? Could you live with the uncertainty of not knowing? If it turned out the other guy was the father, would you be okay and accepting, maybe even play auntie, but if it was your husband's, would you really shun the child?

I am just curious. Anyway, I believe you mentioned that she's been thinking about the possibility - but has she clearly stated what she wants?

Interesting question and scenario. I would have to know the paternity. If I didn't, in the back of my mind, I would always wonder. I know myself too well, and I'd be tempted to have the child secretly tested. I'm not into the sneaky, going behind someone's back type of action, but every time I'd look at the child, questions would be raised. If he/she turned out to be his, something in my soul would make me want to pull away. Bonds established or not, and to me, that is the worst feeling and thought. Shunning an innocent child who didn't ask to be brought into the world. If it was the other man's child, my feelings would be the polar opposite.

Here's the thing. I'd be OK with another person (e.g. an anonymous sperm donor) being the father. That's why this is baffling me so much. I'm supportive of her becoming a mother--just not to any of DH's future children. It's the oddest catch-22.

If I could pinpoint something other than our marriage and my moral standing as to why the thought of DH and her creating new life is 1000% out of the question, I might be able to reach a breakthrough. My best friend suggested seeking a poly-friendly therapist because maybe I need to see it from someone else's POV and maybe there's something else blocking the acceptance of that. At this point, I'm willing. She also posed a different scenario.

As far as her having children, it's definitely on the horizon and in the future. Last night the words, "I do want to become a mum," came out of her mouth. No time frame was given. I wasn't expecting a definitive answer regarding time such as, "Yes, I want to start TTC within 6 months to a year." We've established that she wants to. Now, the when, which is hinging on her, the three of us finding a resolution, and more importantly, God's time. It's wonderful that she is thinking about becoming a mother now. I'm genuinely elated. I love babies. She's already an amazing mother to our children, so I don't expect anything different with those that are biologically hers.
 
What about abstinence from PIV sex while enjoying everything else, as others have mentioned? Is that something your husband and girlfriend would be comfortable with for the duration of their relationship?

Your feelings don't make you a bad person. While it'd be ideal to have known and stated your feelings before you went from a V to a triad, some feelings don't become fully known until trying things out and realizing the full implications.

They discussed that. It's on the list of possibilities. I suspect they will doing quite a bit more talking without me in the home for the next week. I'm going to focus on work, seek clarity, and enjoy my time on a few white sandy beaches. Taking a break from this may provide some much needed clarity for all of us. Hopefully upon my return, we may have a solution that works for everyone. *Fingers crossed*

This is definitely one of those feelings that never had the chance to arise, due to no opportunity. The opportunity has presented itself, and we are tackling it head on as opposed to sitting by and waiting for something to happen.
 
What about adoption? And if DH freezes sperm and vasectomies - what if they want to use it for her to get pregnant by?

Keep talking it out. You guys will get there.

Demystify it and see if it helps you reach a more calm place inside yourself -- even if you find that yes, it is still a hard limit thing with you and no, not a soft limit.

Remember to breathe, pace yourself.

GG
 
I am mostly following, although it is very alien to me because I have very different feelings on the issue, but I am a bit confused by the part about morals.

Now, I understand that you are religious, if I understood you right, and that you think marriage is sacred (you're against divorce, you wouldn't want a child with a married man). But obviously you don't believe that relationships outside of marriage are immoral, since you are in one, and condoning a second one that is just starting.

So why is the idea of children different? Especially since it's only the biological aspect, if she had a child from anyone else you would be fine with the three of you raising it as your own, it seems.
Could it be that you would feel excluded, as a child can only have two biological parents, but that if it's not your husband's either, then you're not the odd one out?

I would definitely appreciate more insight on the moral aspect of it, especially why relationships are fine but not children, and why adoptive children outside of marriage would be fine, but not biological.
 
I am mostly following, although it is very alien to me because I have very different feelings on the issue, but I am a bit confused by the part about morals.

Now, I understand that you are religious, if I understood you right, and that you think marriage is sacred (you're against divorce, you wouldn't want a child with a married man). But obviously you don't believe that relationships outside of marriage are immoral, since you are in one, and condoning a second one that is just starting.

So why is the idea of children different? Especially since it's only the biological aspect, if she had a child from anyone else you would be fine with the three of you raising it as your own, it seems.
Could it be that you would feel excluded, as a child can only have two biological parents, but that if it's not your husband's either, then you're not the odd one out?

I would definitely appreciate more insight on the moral aspect of it, especially why relationships are fine but not children, and why adoptive children outside of marriage would be fine, but not biological.

Excuse me in advance, but I just flew close to 10k miles, so I'm a wee bit scatter brained. I'm not done, yet. Sitting in the airport now.

Most people have different beliefs than mine. I was raised from what feels like birth that children outside of a marriage? That's just a hell no on every single front. I can even remember religion classes from my schooling and the topic arising. It's something I've always been strongly against. If I was mono, it would apply. I'm poly (hate labels), and it still applies. My morals havent changed since the day we met. It's the only monogamous thought in my brain, but it's also the one that impacts people outside of me more than any other one could.

As weird as this may sound, I try to limit my religious beliefs from interferring in my love life. I've never believed that God gives you just one soulmate in this lifetime. I have more than one soulmate. I have two that I'm romantically involved with and many that are non-romantic. (I view my best friends like non-romantic soulmates.) If having one for eternity was true, how could we explain people finding another after the untimely demise of the person they knew was their soulmate? You can't control who you fall for. That's what happened with me. I wasn't looking for love when I met her. It just happened. I could have chosen one or the other, but that option never felt right. That's how I can live with outside relationships. To this day, I still weather internal battles with my religious beliefs, my morals, and my lifestyle. This situation fits the tab of an internal battle of morality.

Crazy part? I can't ever see myself being involved more than 1-2 people. Sometimes two feels like too many, and I have to take a minute to breathe and remember that, "If they weren't meant to be in life, God wouldn't have placed them in my life." After all these years, there are still days where I feel squeamish about being intimate with more than one person. During those times, we establish intimacy without the physical side. Those are the days where my religious beliefs work overtime against me.

My marriage is definitely sacred. Children and the prospect of more are within that realm of sacredness. It is just my belief that children should only be born within a marriage. I can't tell anyone else what to feel, how they should live, or even force my beliefs on them. That's just what I live by. Thus, why I wouldn't be able to have a child with a married man. Frankly, I couldn't even be involved with another man. I don't judge anyone, but that's simply not my cup of tisane. If you do it, there's nothing wrong with it. It's not for me.

I wouldn't feel left out because I would intentionally cut myself out of their lives and have zero involvement with either. I likely wouldn't accept an adoptive child either. He would still be responsible for him/her, their emotional needs, financial needs, and doing everything a father should do. He's a stand-up kind of man. A father is not dictated just by paternity. The actions that the person does give someone the right to be more than a sperm donor. That in itself is why I don't foresee a solution involving any children outside of our marriage. Biological or adopted.

I don't think prayer is the answer. All religious roads have lead me to the same spot. Wheeling and dealing with my beliefs? Mentally, I've tried it. "Technically, if she has a child, she's doing as the bible says and is being fruitful by multiplying." Then, I hear our premarital counselor/officiating priest's prayer in my head saying, "Let this union--between this man and this woman--be fruitful. Next thing I know, I'm back at one. I'm at the point where I want to pull my hair out.

I'm hoping for a breakthrough, while I'm alone with no spouses, children, no dogs, domestic duties, and actually have a chance to process my thoughts and feelings. That's step #1.
 
I scrolled through and tried to find whether or not this was addressed. I skimmed in places, so I apologize if it already was, but -- are all parties involved open to the idea of Kensi having another serious partner? Not an anonymous sperm donor, but a real partner who could be her husband and the father to her child if it's a man she gets involved with, or at least a second parent if it's a woman she gets involved with, in addition to her relationship with you and your husband?

If so, if she has that option on the table, then I think this could work out in a reasonable way for all involved. If that is not an option -- if her only choices, in the context of this triad, are to be childless forever or to have a child who does not have the benefit of a second parent (I'm assuming that if she had a child by a sperm donor, you wouldn't be comfortable with your husband acting in a fatherly role, since you've said you wouldn't be ok with her and him having an adoptive child... and I also assume you wouldn't be open to being a second mother to said child?), I can't see how that can work out, it just seems like a cruel position for someone who's stated she wants to be a mother to not get the benefit of a partner in parenting.

Either way, it seems like poly-friendly counseling couldn't hurt. If there's any question in your mind as to why you feel so strongly about this, why not explore that and try to understand it better?
 
I scrolled through and tried to find whether or not this was addressed. I skimmed in places, so I apologize if it already was, but -- are all parties involved open to the idea of Kensi having another serious partner? Not an anonymous sperm donor, but a real partner who could be her husband and the father to her child if it's a man she gets involved with, or at least a second parent if it's a woman she gets involved with, in addition to her relationship with you and your husband?

If so, if she has that option on the table, then I think this could work out in a reasonable way for all involved. If that is not an option -- if her only choices, in the context of this triad, are to be childless forever or to have a child who does not have the benefit of a second parent (I'm assuming that if she had a child by a sperm donor, you wouldn't be comfortable with your husband acting in a fatherly role, since you've said you wouldn't be ok with her and him having an adoptive child... and I also assume you wouldn't be open to being a second mother to said child?), I can't see how that can work out, it just seems like a cruel position for someone who's stated she wants to be a mother to not get the benefit of a partner in parenting.

Either way, it seems like poly-friendly counseling couldn't hurt. If there's any question in your mind as to why you feel so strongly about this, why not explore that and try to understand it better?

It came up, but right now, we all agreed that would be overkill and too much to balance. This is stressful enough. We are still adjusting to this and trying to reconfigure things. We're in the probationary period, where we are seeing if it will even work. That's how we came to initially and mutually agree to be in polyfidelitous triad. Down the line once the wrinkles have been ironed out? That may change for her. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not opposed to that.

There is a small likelihood that I would be more inclined to accept a child born via a sperm donor and be semi-supportive of him being in fatherly position. That would probably have some limits. Like instead of being called dad. Maybe uncle or something. I'd have to sit down and think about them, but as long as it didn't take time away from the children we have now or drastically alter our set-up, I could be eased into that.

I think a poly-friendly counselor might be able to help in some type of way. Not entirely sure how, but I'm willing to at least try and maintain an open mind, heart, and ears.
 
I was raised from what feels like birth that children outside of a marriage? That's just a hell no on every single front. I can even remember religion classes from my schooling and the topic arising. It's something I've always been strongly against.
So she would need to marry the father of her hypothetical child in order for you to accept it?
 
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So she would need to marry the father of her hypothetical child in order for you to accept it?

I meant what I said in the sense that...having a child--extramarital child, if you will--outside of the confines of an already established marriage doesn't appease to my individual set of beliefs. Others are free to do what they want, and I don't believe in passing judgment. Not my place. It's just not something that I would do or believe in for myself, though. I hope I cleared that up.
 
I'm not sure I understand -- you'd be ok with her having your husband's biological child, but only if there's an even chance that she'll be carrying your child and not hers? I don't say this to be cruel, I swear, and I apologize if it comes off that way, but how is this not a jealousy issue if all your concerns go out the window as long as you can be equally involved? When the end result might be *exactly* the same as if she and your husband had a child together the traditional way? It seems, then, as if the end result of your husband having a child outside of marriage isn't the problem for you, it's simply whether or not you get to be a part of the biological process... that seems very controlling to me, and quite unfair to her since you might be taking away her opportunity to have a child who is biologically related to her.
 
You're entitled to your opinion. I respect it but not necessarily agree. Agree to disagree and move forward.

I said I could live with that. Not accept it. Not support it with all of my heart and all of my soul. Just live with it. I'm trying my best to come up with a solution that doesn't end with my marriage in divorce and a 12 year relationship going down the drain. Realistically, that's where I'm at if this happens and praying that it doesn't have to be like that. Everybody seems to want me to suck it up and deal with it. It's all about what's unfair to her. What about what's emotionally unreasonable and unfair to me?

If I have to deal with this something has to give. If it means sacrificing my own happiness, I guess I'll have to do it or admit defeat. I'm tired of people telling me I'm being unfair, hypocritical, and everything else. I'm drowning and struggling to find a solution. Nothing is gelling over too well. My feelings aren't going to change. I'm not some naïve, impressionable child who changes with the direction of the wind.

I'm not happy with any suggested solutions. Perhaps we just need to break this up now, and she and I can part on good terms, too. Maybe this triad thing isn't going to work and monogamous is how I need to live from this moment forward. I just don't know. I guess I'm wired differently or maybe poly and being religious don't work well together.

How I intially felt: I would rather have gotten a divorce, be involved in a custody battle, and been single than ever be alright with another woman on this earth having my husband's child. I told them exactly how I felt in a tasteful but blunt manner. Not a guilt trip. Not intended to make anyone feel bad. It's what I felt. Don't ask me to be honest and not be prepared for the venom I shoot out.

See the difference? At least, I'm trying to find a solution that I can at least live with every day. However it's blowing up because it's only a matter of time before I blow and don't hold back what I genuinely feel and think. I've been biting my tongue to protect her feelings. The minute I do that? Somebody's world is going to shatter and there will be tears shed. I'm steps away from my breaking point, and it's killing me. I want to scream and cry, but for the sake of sanity, I have to keep it together. :(
 
She was your gf first, right? Then she got involved with your husband, and she hadn't ever mentioned wanting to be a mother until now. So you are freaking out and say you will divorce him if she bears his child. I guess you didn't think of that before they got involved? Anyway, at first you mentioned your reasoning as tied to the fact that you hated the way your mother's half-siblings were treated and ostracized in your family, but then you state you will shun a child of your husband's born to anyone else but you in exactly the same cruel way.

However, no one is actually saying they want to go ahead and plan on getting pregnant, and your husband and she can use several precautions to make sure it doesn't happen. I know everyone says nothing is fool-proof, but people have successfully avoided pregnancy for centuries. There are herbs, barriers, hormones, surgeries for him or her, termination, etc. And if she wants to be a mother, she could look for another man to father a child with her, either as a donor or as a partner. So, why keep freaking out?

If the slim possibility that your hubs is the father is such a horrible thing to you (which I personally find rather puzzling, given that you acknowledge it is just something that was taught you from a religious perspective that you have chosen to align yourself with - and the whole implantation scheme you wrote about makes very little sense to me, but that is neither here nor there), then perhaps they should simply abstain from PIV sex OR shouldn't be involved sexually at all anymore. If she wants to have a baby, she can find another bf or husband for herself, and if your husband wants a gf, he can look elsewhere. You and she can still be in relationship, if she can forgive you. But maybe she doesn't even want your husband to be the father anyway. You are winding yourself up in knots over speculations.
 
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She was your gf first, right? Then she got involved with your husband, and she hadn't ever mentioned wanting to be a mother until now. So you are freaking out and say you will divorce him if she bears his child. I guess you didn't think of that before they got involved? Anyway, at first you mentioned your reasoning as tied to the fact that you hated the way your mother's half-siblings were treated and ostracized in your family, but then you state you will shun a child of your husband's born to anyone else but you in exactly the same cruel way.

However, no one is actually saying they want to go ahead and plan on getting pregnant, and your husband and she can use several precautions to make sure it doesn't happen. I know everyone says nothing is fool-proof, but people have successfully avoided pregnancy for centuries. There are herbs, barriers, hormones, surgeries for him or her, termination, etc. And if she wants to be a mother, she could look for another man to father a child with her, either as a donor or as a partner. So, why keep freaking out?

If the slim possibility that your hubs is the father is such a horrible thing to you (which I personally find rather puzzling, given that you acknowledge it is just something that was taught you from a religious perspective that you have chosen to align yourself with - and the whole implantation scheme you wrote about makes very little sense to me, but that is neither here nor there), then perhaps they should simply abstain from PIV sex OR shouldn't be involved sexually at all anymore. If she wants to have a baby, she can find another bf or husband for herself, and if your husband wants a gf, he can look elsewhere. You and she can still be in relationship, if she can forgive you. But maybe she doesn't even want your husband to be the father anyway. You are winding yourself up in knots over speculations.

At this point, I'm conceding. I know my emotional limits, and I've surpassed them. I have to take a step back. I don't want to think about it at all. If I do, somebody's going to get their feelings hurt. For the best interest of all parties, I'm steering clear of this until I can sort out whatever internal and religious issues I'm dealing with.

It may come down to realizing that maybe poly no longer fits the mold of my life, and that I am just not cut out for this and everything it entails anymore. I appreciate all of the advice from each and every one of you. Thank you tremendously. For the time being...this is a dead issue, as it is like beating a dead horse.
 
If it helps, I feel same. I love kids, but I feel strongly about wanting my kids to be in wedlock. Divorce, accidents leaving people widowed -- LIFE happens. So it doesn't always end up that way of course, but that is what I hoped and wanted for ME. Parenting = just me and DH.

Solution? Closed through Active Parenting. Don't need oopsie babies, don't need drama over reproductive desires not lining up with romantic desires of other partners. Don't want other people's wants, needs, and limits to have to consider in baby makin'. Don't want to deal in weird custody things. Don't want to deal in co-parenting with anyone but him.

I know some friends who do the poly-parenting tribe thing and that works for them. I think it is great - for them. More than happy to be supportive.
But I don't want that parenting option for myself. My willingness is not there for parenting in that style. DH is also not willing.

It's hard to be in the Limbo place while still discussing it with them. But keep talking, hang in there. You will get there. To the place where "There! All is settled! One way or another!"

You do not have to explain why you feel how you do. You just report willingness. You are willing to do X at this time. You are not willing to do Y at this time. You are willing to alert if your willingness should change. But the forecast for changing-ness on that is NO. Looking like hard limit. Are they willing to live with that or not to be in triad-ship with you?

So you could just be ok with this is just how you feel about it. It is a HARD LIMIT thing for you. There it is. There's no need to bang your head on the wall here. You are not a horrible person to have a hard limit. Everyone has something somewhere. They don't all have to be the same kinds of hard limits.

If they can agree to respect the limit, great. If not able to agree? Everyone will deal with it not being a runner. Disappointing, but Life is Life.

If it's a runner for a time, it is a runner for a time. If that time ends or wants and needs change and updates are needed to agreements? Could renegotiate. If not possible? Could know that it could include breaking up. Keep it real over there. It will be ok however it plays out.

People don't polyship for it to be a piece of cake all the time. People do it because they want to love their people, and love them hard.

And that includes loving yourself. However it is you happen to be. Even with whatever soft/hard limits you happen to come with! Be kinder to you being your honest, authentic self.

Remember to BREATHE.

Galagirl
 
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I'm coming out of lurkdom to suggest that, while hurting people's feelings is not something anybody wants to do, being honest is really important. And being honest is probably kinder in the long run.

You strongly feel that marriages are more sacred and special than other relationships. And that feeling isn't right or wrong. It just is. And you feel (if I've understood it right) that you can only be married to one person. Again, there's no wrong or right about it. It's just how you feel.

But it's fair to be honest about this with your girlfriend, so that she may seek out a primary relationship of her own. She can seek out somebody who will be able to share that sacred bond with her and can co-parent with her. And she can still be in a relationship with you and your husband. Being poly means you don't have to pick one over the other.
 
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