Is honesty always preferred?

AnotherConfused

New member
I have a question related to honesty and cheating. I've been in a monogamous marriage for 12 years, but "came out" to my husband about my feelings for another man a couple of years ago. To his great discomfort, I insisted on discussing things thoroughly, and we concluded that he was in no way comfortable with my getting sexually involved with another man. I pushed for some specific boundaries, but he wasn't willing to set any. In spite of all the advice I got on this board, I came away feeling like there were things he wouldn't want to stop me from doing, so long as he didn't know about them. Like kissing, probably, but not getting naked.

I have left it up to my conscience, the other man's conscience, and whatever communication I can coerce my husband into, to guide this other relationship, and it feels pretty comfortable now. Last time he was in town, my husband was happy to have him spend the night (on another floor of the house) and they had a fun time playing music together. Lots of mutual respect all around.

Half a year ago I started to get emotionally involved with another man, again letting my husband know right away, and insisting on a lot of conversations he really didn't want to have. While he had already known the first man for several years, this time it was someone new to both of us, so my husband seemed far more upset by it all. I took a step back, but the feelings prevailed even without seeing each other. Many more conversations with my husband ensued, and the relationship has developed in baby steps. (No sex, again.)

This is all compounded by the fact that I have continually felt a lack of affection, admiration, desire, etc. from my husband, whose ideals in marriage tend more towards hard work, sacrifice, and focusing on the children. I bring this up periodically, and sometimes he'll make a contrived effort, but it never feels sincere to me. He's content to go months without sex, and I think in his mind romance is a tool to woo a mate, but not necessary once the marriage is established. Not to say he isn't kind, generous, and devoted and in many other ways a wonderful person. I just think maybe he's short on testosterone. He likes sex, but I'm always the one initiating, which is hard on the ego. Plenty of times I've had conversations with one or the other of these two men and come away feeling so much more self confident and sexy, it is the nudge I need to get things going in the bedroom at home.

Recently my husband announced that I am free to do what I like with other men. This astonished me. I haven't acted on it because I have no idea what made him say it. If I were to have sex with another man, I'd want my husband to know (and accept) who and when and why -before it happened. Yet, he resists theses conversations again and again. I get the feeling he really does not want to know about it. I recently read a comment on one of these threads, I think, about some Asians (which he is) accepting affairs as common to marriage, but lack of discretion is the truly unacceptable act. What if he really doesn't want to know?

I don't want to cheat. I love my husband. Yet he and I seem to be coming to the conclusion that I have needs he is just not meeting. My preference would be that he would fall madly in love with me all over again, find himself unable to keep his hands off me, tell me how lucky he is to have me for a wife, and repeat ad nauseum. (I try to do those things for him, but it's hard to keep up solo.) I do love the other two men, but the sexual and romantic pull would be so much more diminished this way. Yet I wonder if my husband is getting tired of this effort, and wishing I would just quietly go get my needs met elsewhere and be happy? His main argument against polyamory is propriety (decent upstanding people don't act like that -his view not mine) so turning a blind eye would be his way out, right?

The answer to every question on this board is: communicate. I will draw him into more of these conversations. I will ask him just why he suggested I am free to be with other men. But is there ever a point where a partner would really rather remain in the dark?
 
It wouldn't be cheating just because he doesn't want a detailed report. It's still honest if he knows you are being sexual with other men without knowing where, when, and what you do. This is different from a DADT policy, I believe. I think you might be worried a little too much. Partners in successful poly relationships don't always want or need everything shared with them down to the nth degree. It seems like it's enough for him that he knows you have these relationships and he accepts that you are/will be sexual. Perhaps your always striving to be honest with him was what prompted him to give you the go-ahead; he trusts your judgement and knows you are ethical. You're not being dishonest or cheating if you aren't running everything by him all the time.
 
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Wow, it does sound like he has a really low libido and sex just isn't much on his radar screen at all. Sounds like he's given you carte blanche just to get you off his back (or front, or lap). Go for it! Go out there with your guys and get all the love and affection and orgasms and compliments you so deeply deserve!
 
I am mono too (open to a poly relationship on my part if it presents itself). My gf (confirmed ploy) and I have guidelines. One of which being, it is cheating if we go to bed for the first time with a new partner without letting the other one know it is going to happen beforehand. Not oh shit I have to call my SO before we do this. I find this to be acceptable. We agree that honesty is the best policy. Talk to him about what he expects from you; as a wife, a mother to your children, and as a friend. The only thing as bad as ruining the trust between you two is ruining the respect for one another. Guidelines, help to define what is ok and what isn't.
 
Oh Honey ! You are not cheating. Communicating is highly over-rated. There are so many people communicating in poly, that very few are actually LISTENING.

I understand your situation very well ! Sounds to me like your husband has heard you, listened to you, but doesn`t want to talk about it. You need to cross the bridge, that you won`t be chatting to him about your exciting times, and what you want to do, or have done.

Find a different confidant. Someone to bounce things off of, and blab details too.

Have ONE chat with your husband. Leave him a note saying you need ONE talk just to know where you are at, so you can feel honest. Make sure to mention you wont be wanting repeat chats, unless something changes for him, and HE needs to convey something.
Don`t ASK for permission. He is not your father, and respect for these things is mutual, not lop-sided. When we 'ask' permission, it means we think what we are doing is potentially wrong, and we are looking for someone else to decide what is wrong, and what is right. I see people always looking for their spouses 'blessing', when really they just need the ability to feel open.

Instead, just explain what you want. Without specific details.
" I want this, and this, and maybe this,..what do you think ? If sex happened, do you want to know ?'

You can be supportive of his desire to not need details, while maintaining your need to be in the open. Respect and permission are different things, and should stay that way.

Good Luck !
 
Thanks, everyone. You make it sound so simple. I still feel totally confused about his feelings. I know he would never want a play-by-play description of what happens, and I wouldn't want to give him that. I'm just not sure if he really wants me to do this or not. He did say he would not be happy about it. I think perhaps he hopes that, given the choice, I'll choose monogamy, which to him is the only ethical, proper choice, but a choice he wants to be sure I am making for myself. Not long ago he told me an affair would mean the end of our marriage. I asked him whether getting sexually involved with a man would do that now, and he said only that we'd stay married until our kids are grown (the youngest is in kindergarten) and then see where we are. So I guess I'm worried I'd pay for it later.

I'm not even sure if it is something I feel ok doing. My husband has never been with another woman. I was his first kiss, even. It feels utterly selfish when I know it's something he doesn't feel good about, but seems to be offering maybe begrudgingly for my sake. He's always been one to sacrifice his comfort to meet everyone else's needs. If this makes him uncomfortable, isn't it better that I just don't do it, or is it enough that I just don't tell him?

One thing I feel fairly strongly is that if I do (or if I forgo intercourse and just go get sexy cuddles) I think it would have to be with the first man, where there is already a solid foundation of respect and friendship between each of us. I am worried about the NRE still sizzling between the second man and me, which I think, with sex added, would overshadow my home and family life too much. My husband doesn't trust the second guy not to want to take me away, whereas the first decades older than me and clearly not interested in taking on a mother of young children as his partner.

The idea is thrilling. I've fantasized about him for 20 years!
 
Hey Another,

Based on what you've written only, I suspect you see the situation pretty clearly. There's a variety of reason he may not be that sexual with you and there's no need to get into them. It doesn't matter - it is what it is.
What seems important in this is that he's being respectful to your needs & desires and it behooves you to do the same for him. By this I mean that if you choose to take other lovers, you WILL need to be discreet as it's indicated from your writing that his concerns are for the social stigma - and likely the children.
So you have to be careful and smart. Respectful.

I think if you do this, all will likely be well.

GS
 
I'd want to know why the change....In fact I'd have to know the reason for the change.... I may have trust issues...ok I do have trust issues but just don't see most men having had a strong position on a topic like this just out of blue saying ....honey ya know what.... why don't you go find yourself a nice boyfriend to fuck .... you deserve it ....I know I know I was against it but I woke up today and I've changed my mind.


Speaking of nice boyfriends to fuck ....(as RP has mentioned many times)...MonoVCPHG is having a birthday ...HAPPY Birthday Mono!:D:D
 
He did say he would not be happy about it. I think perhaps he hopes that, given the choice, I'll choose monogamy, which to him is the only ethical, proper choice, but a choice he wants to be sure I am making for myself. Not long ago he told me an affair would mean the end of our marriage. I asked him whether getting sexually involved with a man would do that now, and he said only that we'd stay married until our kids are grown (the youngest is in kindergarten) and then see where we are. So I guess I'm worried I'd pay for it later.

With that info, I`d say he has been very clear.
 
I'd want to know why the change....In fact I'd have to know the reason for the change.... I may have trust issues...ok I do have trust issues but just don't see most men having had a strong position on a topic like this just out of blue saying ....honey ya know what.... why don't you go find yourself a nice boyfriend to fuck .... you deserve it ....I know I know I was against it but I woke up today and I've changed my mind.

Yes, it's not so much that I don't trust him as I don't understand his motivation, and if it is more one of resigned self-sacrifice than a sincere regard for my well being, of course I can't go there. Although both elements are always in the balance, aren't they?
 
Clear that I shouldn't, you mean? Or that he doesn't want to know about it if I do?

Seems clear to me, that he says the choice is yours, but expect repercussions. He isn`t wanting to control you, but there could very well be a end of the marriage due to it, when the time is right.

I`d now say the opposite of what I said earlier.

Things to figure out, (before poly dalliances) might be :

- Why is he married to you ? Out of obligation ? That needs nailed down.

- Does he object to feelings, or sex, or both with another person ?

- What about it, would change his feelings toward you ? If, it`s a 'respect' issue,....and he loses respect for you, due to his personal beliefs,..well, you have a very tough road ahead.

- If he is against it, as it forces him to confront his libido-issues and why things are the way they are,..well, you might have some hope.

It`s a tough spot to be in, with no easy answers, or soft and fluffy outcomes. Reconcile that now.
 
Clear that I shouldn't, you mean? Or that he doesn't want to know about it if I do?

Doesnt want to know about it if you do. DADT. Dont ask dont tell.

As far as him leaving you in 13 years, who knows what will happen by then? If youre truly poly, I say go for it!
 
Things to figure out, (before poly dalliances) might be :

- Why is he married to you ? Out of obligation ? That needs nailed down.

- Does he object to feelings, or sex, or both with another person ?

- What about it, would change his feelings toward you ? If, it`s a 'respect' issue,....and he loses respect for you, due to his personal beliefs,..well, you have a very tough road ahead.

- If he is against it, as it forces him to confront his libido-issues and why things are the way they are,..well, you might have some hope.

These are great questions, some of which we have talked about a lot. I suspect that the reasons he married me (my personal qualities, the fact that he gave me his virginity, his being ready at that time in life to get married) are not the same as the reasons he wants to stay married (our children, our reputations, the turmoil of a split, and a respect, maybe a fondness, for the years we have shared). He is very devoted in every sense of the word, including the sense of feeling obligated to stand by me. I am beginning to think he would not have married me if he had known then that I would be like this now -interested in other men, valuing all my social relationships all much as I do, and not being willing to sacrifice my wants and desires for the sake of my children. (I'm willing to tuck them in bed before I go dancing, but I'm not willing to give up dancing to devote all my energy to parenting, for example. I've had to persuade him that getting a babysitter so we can both go out is not slacking off as parents.)

He's a very logical, scientific man. He doesn't "object" to my feelings for other men, but recognizes that he can't control them. He's not a jealous man at all. He has a fear of losing me, and more specifically, our children, if I am tempted away by another man. For me, sexual desire and the desire to share a household with someone are like apples and oranges, but for him they have never been separate, so I understand his fear. He has a fear of STDs but that can clearly be worked around. He worries the situation would impact our children negatively, even while recognizing and appreciating the wonderful relationships between my daughters and one of these men. And then the big one, impropriety. If others found out, they would judge is. Maybe he'd look inadequate and foolish, and I'd look immoral and selfish. And maybe he'd believe it.

As for his libido, it's an odd problem. He's very sexually satisfying for me. Typical sex for us involves several orgasms for me, and sometimes repeat performances for him. I can turn him on just by saying "let's have sex." I'm not sure if there's a physical issue for him at all. It's just that in between, he doesn't think about it, and that in between time can stretch and stretch. 7 weeks ago he got a vasectomy, and he's supposed to submit a semen sample for testing after 15 ejaculations. Keeping count with him has led me to the discovery that even when we don't have sex for a week or two, he rarely even masturbates. Last count he was at 5 (4 with me, one alone). I've probably given myself that many in the past 3 days. I guess I'd say he loves sex, but he doesn't need sex. I do. I am just so tired of trying to put myself in the mood without his help.
 
It sounds to me like his concerns are no different than most people just starting to figure out poly. There are plenty of people who get through that and come to realize that usually it is just fine. Marriages end for various reasons... mostly for other reasons than poly from what I know.

I think I would copy and paste, or get him to read this thread. I think you spell out quite well what is going on for you and what your confusion and concern is. Maybe another method of communicating or letting him know that you are so concerned that you are getting advice and support elsewhere will entice him to sit up and take note. It could be the catalyst that you are looking for.
 
We had a huge conversation about this last night. I had misunderstood so much, including his meaning two years ago when he refused to answer whether he minded me kissing someone else or not. He minds all of it. It all hurts him. He considers all of it wrong. His "Do what you like" was a big fat "I give up on you."

He's still not telling me not to do what I like, but he says I have to balance the pleasure I get against the hurt he would feel and decide for myself. When I think about it that way -how much pleasure I get from a kiss -it seems clearly not worth it. But I feel now like it's up to me, the sexual deviant in the relationship, to learn to squelch my immoral impulses and live l like a normal decent person if I want to avoid causing my husband pain. (This is how I imagine it looks in his eyes.)

Perhaps it is a rare slice of humanity on these boards, who come here to confront and address the reasons for the pain -jealousies, fears, etc. in hopes of helping find middle ground with partners who want to love others. For my husband, his pain is an appropriate response, and my desire to question it and understand it and hopefully resolve it so that I can love others without causing it, is to him an unreasonable pressure. He feels I will never relent on the subject; thus his "Do what you like" surrender. I can love others and hurt him, or I can be a good wife. My choice.

I honestly don't mind not having sex with anyone else for the rest of my life, but I do love others, and I hate feeling wrong in his eyes for feeling this way. When he tried to kiss and caress me as we ended our conversation, all I could feel was a terrible guilt for knowing that I want kisses and caresses from the other men I love as well. For the first time, I'm actually wondering if we'd be better off not married. I'm not sure if I can live happily until the day I die with a man who sees a whole big part of who I am as indecent. Or if he can live happily with a wife like me.
 
There is nothing wrong with the way you feel. I feel as you do and have agreed with Mono not to pursue other men sexually. I have a non-sexual boyfriend as a result and you know? I am just fine with that. I have found that it is the close emotional bond I was craving, not the sex. Part of that for me is that I get all my sexual needs met quite nicely and don't want/need for any more. It sounds like this is where you and I differ as you have said you are not.

I wonder if it is possible that you two could work on your sex life together. If he thinks that sex outside of marriage is wrong and would not stay with you if you ventured into sexual relationships with others then how would he feel about working on your sex life and you having close relationships with the other men in your life? Maybe there is a chance that you and he could find a compromise.

I have written a lot here about compromise as a never ending teetor-totter of attempting to find a boundary agreement that works for both, but really can never be reached. Sometimes it is just like that and one has to let go of ever feeling entirely comfortable with the situation. It is possible to do that but it takes easing up slowly to the ever illusive boundary and seeing what results.

For me the illusive boundary was crossed when I got to close to Leo and Mono had a really hard time with it. He saw it as cheating, and to me it was within the bounds, just barely. We now know that the boundary was in a different place than I realized, but we are okay and it was a learning experience. Not worth ending everything... we decided to take it as a learning experience and move on.... it is possible to do that.

Anyway, I wrote a lot about that last year in my blog around Dec 2010 if you want to read about it... please PM if you want too :) I'm not saying that you shouldn't be done with this situation and move on, because I still see some options... if you and he love each other, work well together and are willing to do some work... at the end of the day I would not begrudge your choice to stay or go, just so you know. I know all too well how much work it is that is before you and ending your marriage is also a viable option.
 
In reading this entire thread I am not surprised of your recent developments. Why? Because I ask myself these types of questions constantly from your hubby's perspective. A little explanation: There are a lot of times where I feel I would be perfectly good with RP becoming sexual with a friend of ours (her non-sexual boyfriend Leo). I have certain sexual concerns around his swinger activities and his wife's sexual behavior but those could be managed).

When I have these thoughts I have to look very deep as to why I am feeling this way because I have felt this way with my ex-wife. Back then it was because I had lost intimate connection and did not value her sexuality the same way I once did. I wasn't intimately invested in her the way I once was.

I have to ask myself why I am feeling ok with the idea - is it because I truly am ok or because I no longer value the relationship the same way I once did? Am I truly invested in maintaining an intimate connection with her? Am I a ok with it because I am so in love with her or because I feel the relationship is going to morph into something less connected anyway? Maybe...and just maybe, I am looking for a way out subconsciously? That would be the worst - setting her up to create a situation where I could use it to change the nature of our relationship. Would I be giving myself justification to do things I normally wouldn't? I've done this in the past and have to be watchful of myself for this.

In the event that they did become intimate, that is all I would want to know. I wouldn't want to know what they do, when they do it, or see any indication of their new found intimacy. I get the don't ask don't tell appeal for people. If I put myself into the situation of being in an open relationship it would likely not be the kind where partners need to know each other or even be aware of what goes on as long as people are safe.

So I guess I don't have words of advice really..just a perspective.
 
I'm confused. In one post, did you say he said you could pursue other men. Then you say he wants a divorce if you do?

He should be able, as an adult, to tell you if he consents to you having other partners whether or not he knows their identities and other detail. It sounds like you are trying to guess what he wants? Has he come out and given one clear opinion?
 
Thanks for these thoughts. A difficulty that arises when it comes to my emotional bond with both of these other men is that they live far away (2 hrs and 5 hrs drive). For the past six months I've really wanted to spend time with the one 2 hrs away, who has known me for half my life. I've been going through some tough times and he's exactly the person I want to talk to about it, since he is both close, in knowing me so well, and distant, in being separate from my day to day life. We do talk on the phone weekly and have had a couple of times where we've crossed paths in situations where we were surrounded with other friends or family, but I'd like to just have a few uninterrupted hours in person for his special brand of heart to heart talks that have helped me understand myself better over all the years I've known him (my entire adult life). My husband doesn't want me to go visit him. It's not proper. For 20 years we've successfully refrained from having sex with each other, and now I'm also willing (with sadness) to forgo the kisses, but it seems even the friendship has to be limited. I'm not sure I can accept this.

There doesn't seem to be any compromising going on. I guess my husband feels like he is already giving in by having a wife who loves other men, and it's my job to give in by not being close to them. Or I get close, and he gets hurt, and it's my fault for making that choice. I want to believe that his reaction is his own choice, and that if it turns out to be pain (jealousy, fear, etc.) we can stop to figure that out, but he is simple not open to exploring it. His feelings are the "right" ones in this situation, and mine are part of being raised in this loose American culture by twice divorced parents -I'm pathological (as is everyone who feels like I do, so reading the other stories here won't help him).

What to do? I love him but my very nature causes him pain!
 
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