The pace of the one who is struggling most

During my own recent holiday party tour I was reminded of one last year and I wondered what happened with the party you were planning to go to. How did it go? Big deal or no big deal?

You can't leave us hanging...

Oh, it was pretty much no big deal, so I didn't think it merited writing about. I offered to go alone or find another friend to go with, but my husband decided he wanted to go so he could play music. He had a good time, and it was a big crowd so there was no opportunity for drama. I danced just once with L.

When we did dance, L told me which women in the room he was interested in, which is something he's always done because we've been each other's confidantes for ages. Then it hit me that I can't be both lover and confidante. If we're intimate, I want his attention on me. And I'd rather keep what we've always had, that ability to talk to each other about anything. So between that and not wanting to alienate him from my family, I told him the intimacy just isn't worth it for me. At least for now. (I'm still really glad we gave it a try though, because now I don't have to wonder any more.) I told my husband that I really love having that door open but I don't necessarily want to go through it.

I also had my day with C in town, and we did go hiking and have a little coziness out there in the woods, and then some good hanging out with my kids. In talking to my husband the day or two before, he seemed to be pretty tense about having dinner together, so I offered to cancel or move it from our house to a restaurant, but in the end he said he was fine with it, as long as C and I didn't spend the afternoon cooking together as if we two were the hosts. It was a good evening, 6 adults in all, a chance for my husband to see that C was a decent guy, intelligent and interesting, but I get the idea neither of them particularly want to cross paths again, so I won't ask them to. (They'll both be at the same New Year's Eve dance, but in a big crowd.)

All in all everything feels pretty calm and smooth now. I feel really loved and really lucky. No idea where we are all going with this, but the present is happy.
 
When we did dance, L told me which women in the room he was interested in, which is something he's always done because we've been each other's confidantes for ages. Then it hit me that I can't be both lover and confidante. If we're intimate, I want his attention on me. And I'd rather keep what we've always had, that ability to talk to each other about anything... I told him the intimacy just isn't worth it for me. At least for now.

:(
 

Aw, but it doesn't feel sad to me! What felt sad was lying there naked with L that one day, basking in afterglow, and then listening to him talk about his ex-girlfriend. I had to make him change the subject. I've never asked him to change the subject before, in 20 years of friendship. The mantra of our entire relationship is, "Ask me anything, tell me anything." Then I realized I also don't tell him much about C, because he gets jealous (at least that's how it looks to me) and starts to sound judgmental. We had something really unique when we were able to give each other perspective from standing at the edges of each other's lives, but by getting more involved (sexually, romantically) that has been slipping away, and we find ourselves trying to protect each other's feelings by limiting what we say. I already have a fine sex life with my husband, but I need that relationship that L and I have always had, so we are going back (forward) to that. Hugs and kisses and innuendo, and completely uncensored communication.
 
...it hit me that I can't be both lover and confidante. If we're intimate, I want his attention on me.
What felt sad was lying there naked with L that one day, basking in afterglow...

I didn't realize you were lovers now. I thought you were keeping your clothes on and not having sex...?

But why do you think you suddenly can't talk to him about others and visa versa now? I wonder why sharing your bodies makes it more difficult to be open in your verbal communications. I see sex as a form of communication, and I would think the physical intimacy would have brought you closer in all ways. Are you compartmentalizing the sexual dynamic between you, for some reason? How about examining why you "can't be both lover and confidante" instead of just putting a halt to it? Seems like a good opportunity to learn more about yourself and nurture deeper paths to intimacy and self-growth to me.
 
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I didn't realize you were lovers now. I thought you were keeping your clothes on and not having sex...? But why do you think you can't talk to him about others and visa versa?

What my husband asked for was no penetrative or oral sex outside marriage, so L and I had a sort of play day where we did get very sexual within those boundaries. I'm sure we could work through feelings to make it more comfortable to keep having that, but it doesn't feel worth it to me. It dampened his relationship with my husband, and it made me uneasy.

L has had sex with dozens and dozens of women, to the point where I felt like I was moving from this very special place in his life towards a very well worn common one. Previously, I've loved hearing about his sexual experiences and the insights he has from his large "sample size," telling me all about how women reach orgasms in various ways and so forth. But I don't like being one of those women, it turns out. Maybe that will change someday but right now I'm totally content with what we had before, and he is too. In fact, I don't think it was too great for him, when he doesn't have any regular sex partner, to spend all that time being aroused with only hands for satisfaction. (Even if we did get him there 3 times, which surprised him a bit since he's 67.)

C was the one I had no plans to get naked with. We had that clumsy encounter in his car, and then I felt uncomfortable with that much intimacy given that he rarely has time for me and we haven't had too much opportunity to grow our relationship outside emails. When I explained how I felt he said he had not adjusted his lifestyle to reflect how important I've become to him. Since then we've had nearly daily emails, frequent online chats, and he arranged a full day visit. We are attending a dance weekend together in February, and I'm thinking by then I'll be wanting a little more with him. Although there is always the possibility that he'll find a "real" girlfriend (he wants a monogamous relationship that includes sex, and I can't offer that) and then I'll just be... an ex-not-girlfriend? This also makes me uneasy, knowing I'll get "dumped" eventually. I'm really into him.

On the lighter side, last night I was out dancing and I had this great waltz that made me think of polyamory. I danced with two men who skillfully handed me back and forth in a series of intricate steps. There was constant nonverbal communication between each of us to make it seamless and smooth. One would raise his arm to twirl me under and the other would step in so I'd emerge into his arms, then spin around to be handed back to the first. I felt all this care and attention directed towards me, but also fantastic respect between the men, who were each making sure the other was included with the right amount of space and timing to work for all of us. Ah, I wish love could be learned as easily as waltzing! (Granted, it was a lot more mental and physical effort than dancing with just one partner at a time.)
 
so you didn't like hearing about women in the room he had an interest in or the sex talk about his ex-girlfriend during afterglow period....this made you feel less special. But you have or had three romantic and physical relationships at the time. Shouldn't be the same for them? Isn't your husband your confidant or you his? Do you think that will then change as a result?
 
so you didn't like hearing about women in the room he had an interest in or the sex talk about his ex-girlfriend during afterglow period....this made you feel less special. But you have or had three romantic and physical relationships at the time. Shouldn't be the same for them? Isn't your husband your confidant or you his? Do you think that will then change as a result?

My husband and I share a lot with each other, but I really can't confide in him my feelings, big or small, about other men. I tell him just enough so that I don't feel like I'm hiding something from him, but, "Wow, that guy over there is hot!" is more the comment I would make to a female friend, not to my husband. If he were the kind of man who was turned on by that kind of conversation, you bet I'd tell him, but he's not. He doesn't want to hear it.

L and I have a long history of sharing that kind of talk with each other. He encouraged me in my pursuit of various men when I was single, and I've been giving him relationship advice and encouragement since his divorce. I don't think this would work if we'd ever been potential partners to each other. And it didn't work when we were in bed together. I don't think it has anything to do with how many partners any of us have. I don't want any lovers telling me about their attraction to other women, and they don't apparently want to hear about mine to other men. What L said to me yesterday was, "If I can't tell you, who am I going to tell?" and we knew we'd rather be confidantes than lovers.

I didn't feel less special when L talked about his ex girlfriend. I felt less special when I felt myself shifting from confidante to lover. He could have sex with just about anyone (and has), but I'm the one he tells all his secrets to, and I want to keep that role.
 
First let me say I'm glad the party was no big deal, that's good.

And I didn't realize your use of confidante had such a narrow and focused meaning.

I thought that this whole journey started because after years of friendship fueled by intimate touching, (dance and kissing ) erotic stories, L's vocal lustful desires, some romantic deficiencies on the part of hubs you felt starved for a greater an more intimate connection to these men. (the sex part) The corner stone of your argument is or was to be free to experience such connections and you were willing to risk your marriage to get that. After a few uncomfortable encounters in which other women are mentioned you want to go back to friends status with L. But you told me once that building their sexual confidence was a great turn on for you...how would you get turned on if they never told you of these desires?
And maybe they or he was trying to turn you on.

What does hubs know of this? what his reaction
 
I thought that this whole journey started because after years of friendship fueled by intimate touching, (dance and kissing ) erotic stories, L's vocal lustful desires, some romantic deficiencies on the part of hubs you felt starved for a greater an more intimate connection to these men. (the sex part) The corner stone of your argument is or was to be free to experience such connections and you were willing to risk your marriage to get that. After a few uncomfortable encounters in which other women are mentioned you want to go back to friends status with L. But you told me once that building their sexual confidence was a great turn on for you...how would you get turned on if they never told you of these desires?
And maybe they or he was trying to turn you on.

What does hubs know of this? what his reaction

I don't know if it's really as complex as all this. There always has been and likely always will be a strong sexual attraction aspect to my relationship with L. I am really glad I had the chance to explore that, after 20 years of wondering how it would feel. Now I know that yes, he knows his way around a woman, and is very well endowed, and looks exquisitely beautiful during orgasms, and has unbelievably smooth soft skin. I also know that I'm more comfortable in my previous role in his life, when he could be closer to my husband and kids, and I could comfortably listen to him talk about whatever the heck he wants to talk about. Is this wrong in any way? We're both happy with it.

My husband knows that for now I'm not interested in continuing physical intimacy with L, but he's not interested in the details. I told him I like having that door open though. It feels way different making this choice for myself, based on what feels best between L and me, than it did when we withheld intimacy only for my husband's sake. Just as I love being able to let things unfold with C at a pace that is comfortable for my relationship with him, rather than just feeling like we are bumping up against my husband's boundaries.

I guess you could say that I wasn't risking my marriage for a chance to get physical with L or C. I tried to fix a painful marriage by asking for the freedom to make my own choices in my other relationships. And it worked. My marriage is worlds better now (and not just for me).
 
Sometimes having the freedom to flirt and just be yourself without having to worry about what is "appropriate" behavior makes all the difference. Why would it be wrong if it works for both of you?
 
Oh wow, they're ALL coming to the same New Year's Eve dance tomorrow! I'm not sure if I should be excited or worried. I was planning it as a date with my husband, but L's daughter plays in one of the bands so she talked him into coming, and C heard about it from mutual dance friends and decided to make the trip. My husband looked a little alarmed when I told him. At least at dances it's acceptable to devote all one's attention to one partner at a time, so I will do that and possibly have quite an ecstatic night.
 
You used said you were will to risk your marriage to have this greater connection. I thought you used the word starved to describe what you needed. You think its simpler than it appears or I stated...how so? I guess I'll have to reread this thread from the beginning.:)

Nothing wrong if everyone's happy.

My thoughts come from a place of fundamental fairness. And with that mindset reading that you got uncomfortable at the sight, suggestion, and discussion of other women put a highlight on the word special or less special.
I was thinking how would each of them plug special or less special to describe this dynamic.

The reason I asked about hubs reaction was I could see many conflicting emotions and thoughts if this were to happen to me. Just wondered about his take.

Did you describe your marriage as painful to your husband? God if anyone had directly told me that I would gladly release them from that union. I guess someone did indirectly tell me that and now seems to have reversed their position.

Have fun at the party I'm sure everything will be fine :D
 
Oh wow, they're ALL coming to the same New Year's Eve dance tomorrow! I'm not sure if I should be excited or worried. I was planning it as a date with my husband, but L's daughter plays in one of the bands so she talked him into coming, and C heard about it from mutual dance friends and decided to make the trip. My husband looked a little alarmed when I told him. At least at dances it's acceptable to devote all one's attention to one partner at a time, so I will do that and possibly have quite an ecstatic night.
They are still your friends, the friends you have always had. You don't have to act any differently. Just because there is an added element of more intimacy with them doesn't mean you have to let it weird you out. I think the problem here is still your husband's feelings about how close you are to them. He has allowed it but still judges it and thinks it is wrong, but you don't have to let that make you nervous or feel like you're doing anything wrong. Don't be so afraid! Enjoy the attention and closeness you have with all your men!
 
Ouch, tonight didn't go well at all! We were at a dance hall with 3 floors of dancing, and my husband decided to spend some of his time on a different floor from me, where he could do more mellow dancing. I asked him to join me on the main floor before midnight.

At 11:45 they announced it was the second-to-last dance before midnight, so I asked C to dance. Before the band started, my husband walked up, looking upset, and said he wanted to do the next dance with me. I said of course. I had a good dance with C, wished him a happy new year, then found my husband, who launched into an angry tirade about how I should have been with him since 11:45. Not just the last dance before midnight, but the 15 minutes before midnight. (For the kind of dancing we do, it is common practice to change partners for each dance.)

I told him that wasn't what I thought we'd planned, but that we were doing the last dance. He continued to try to convince me that I had done something wrong. I told him it didn't feel like he actually wanted to be happily enjoying dancing with me, but rather that he was trying to stake some kind of claim. So he said forget it, everything was ok, but I was too hurt to enjoy the dance, and when midnight came and went we were still mad.

Now it's past 3am and I am not even able to be in the same bed with him. He has accused me of not caring about him, of not wanting to make him happy, of not wanting to dance with him as much as I wanted to dance with C. (Thank god L changed plans last minute and didn't make it.) He said I danced with C at least 6 or 8 times, when it was really only 3. He said if he hadn't come up to me when he did, I would probably have danced with C until midnight, and C would have expected a midnight kiss since he came without a date. It's like he's making up a version of reality that turns me into a bad wife, but it's not based on fact. So how can I make it right?

Ironically when I asked C for that dance, I'd actually hoped to ask the woman who had been dancing with him before that. She's someone I really like (friend-wise). But she moved off before I could get to her, so I asked C. Never realizing I was breaking my husband's unwritten 15-minutes-before-midnight rule.

I'm so tired. I just wanted to go out and have fun. And up until almost midnight, I did have fun. It hurts that the only bad part of the night was with my husband. I work so hard on this, and it seems to make no difference. Tonight, I failed.
 
umm, please forgive me, I know I'm new here and stuff...

But, um, how is it *your* failure? I can't possibly see that you have failed when it was his unspoken expectation that upset him.

Imagine you're 12, and you are on the playground. You're happily playing jacks, when your friends come up and say, 'hay AC, you're not being a good friend, you should have been playing fooshinball with us' Would that make you feel like a failure? You didn't know they wanted you to play, and you have no earthly idea what fooshinball might be. Not your failure.

Just food for thought. I'm still awake cuz my night wasn't exactly ideal either. Not horrible, just less than I desired.
 
Oh gosh, that sounds so familiar. I got the same treatment from my partner a little while ago. Accusing me of being selfish when I broke some unwritten rule that only existed in his mind.

Your husband is struggling with this, obviously. You have a lot of work ahead of you.

But don't internalize his accusations. You didn't do anything wrong.

He is expressing some deeper feeling of hurt and jealousy that is only triggered by your behavior. I believe that you could behave like a nun and still get the accusations, because the reason behind him accusing you has nothing to do with your behavior. Seriously.
 
I have to second NovemberRain, this wasn't your fault.

Your husband has to learn to ask for what he wants. If he is unsatisfied with you/your behavior or the situation at hand he has to get his act together and open his mouth. You aren't a mind-reader or some kind of empathetic person who is able to read minds. And you will make this worse if you start to search for faults in your behavior, this will make him feel justified for being upset while he was just coping really badly because of his own problems.

He needs to see that if he wants things to go a special way, he needs to clarify what he imagined to happen and how. If he was unable to predict beforehand that this or that will upset him, he needs to own his emotions and stop blaming you for doing something that felt natural for you and was an expression fo your wishes. You really need to talk about this problem, but not only about the things that happened that night but about the problems that are behind those actions/reactions.

Good luck and I am sorry that your night became so complicated in the end.
 
I don't really think I was at fault, NovemberRain, but my husband sure wants me to think so. Apparently he thinks I should have wanted to dance the last 15 minutes before midnight with him, and the fact that I hadn't looked around to see if he was in the room yet before I asked C to dance was a sign I really don't care about him. He seems to think the room was full of couples seeking out their sweethearts at two dances before midnight, and I was the only wife in the room who wasn't bothering to look for her husband.

I keep saying, "I can't meet your expectations if I don't know what they are," and he keeps saying, "Any reasonable person would have understood that we should be together for the 15 minutes before midnight." Plus, he's claiming to have taken the high road by letting me have that dance with C, because he says if I'd been with anyone else he would have asked them to step aside, but he didn't because of my feelings for C. If he'd asked someone I was partnered with to step aside, I would have been horrified. Nobody does that.

Sonic, Phy, I agree there must be some deeper issues behind this, but I don't know how to get past where we are right now to find them. He seems to be feeling like I don't make him feel special enough. I don't know how to do that. I mean, I really think I try my best. Especially the past few weeks since we set clear ground rules for my relationships with C and L -I've made sure to devote lots more attention to my husband, and heated up our sex life, and poured more time and energy into our family, to make sure he's not short-changed. But fighting like this, I don't want to sleep with him, or have sex with him, or dance with him, or anything else.
 
Honestly, nothing you will do at the moment can please him as it seems. Stop making this your problem, at least for the moment. As you describe it, he won't be up for any agreement. What is a 'reasonable person'? As long as he isn't able to see that he is shaping a world that is only understandable from his point of view, but is expecting you to exactly know what is going on in his head, you won't move one inch.

If he does things that make him uncomfortable, he has to see that it was HIS choice to do so and that it is highly unreasonable to expect you to eat humble pie because of his generosity when you don't even know that this was bothering him. Again the mind-reader-problem and again something that falls within his remit. He needs to see that you can only work on his problems when you know what they are.

If he feels that you don't make him feel special enough, you yourself say that you do all that you can think of, it's again something he needs to get across to in regard to why this is the case and how you could be able to change it. The only person that is able to tell you about that is him alone. You have done all you could.

I am sorry that you have such a hard time and I know that this seems really difficult right know to solve this, but I hope that you can filter down to him that he needs to do some introspection to give you a chance to be able to meet his needs in the future.
 
I remember having an argument with my husband once, early in our relationship. We hadn't been married very long at that point. He was angry and upset about something I wore (!). He felt that it reflected poorly on him, as his wife, and he was clearly and visibly upset, heated up, wanting a fight. He seemed to expect something from me to either justify his upset or make it go away. Basically to conform to an idea he had about proper behavior from me.

I responded by calmly telling him that nothing I could do or say at that moment would change how he feels, that it was his responsibility to manage his emotions, and that I wouldn't get into a conversation about it while he was so hopping mad. When he was ready to discuss things calmly I would be there, but not before. He came back later and apologized because in all his stewing he realized that what he was upset about was coming from his opinions and expectations about "a wife" rather than anything about me as a person. And when he realized I wasn't going to fight with him because I wanted to work on things practically instead, it was like an epiphany to him (his ex constantly fought with him).

I hope you and your husband can discuss things rationally -- but for any progress to be made, he has to realize that you are not hurting him. He is choosing to feel hurt over imagined slights and that is where his self-work should begin.
 
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