Saying Things You Don't Really Mean (and assumptions that follow)

BoringGuy

Banned
This is a split off of this thread:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41997


I had something really amazing and insightful to say, but I just got distracted by something shiny and I lost it. I am starting this thread because it's a topic that is important to me and I don't wish to continue to hijack the other thread. I will get back to this whenever, but if anyone else has anything to say in the mean-time, that would be appreciated because this is something that, although not limited to poly relationships, seems to come up quite a bit in threads around here and it would be beneficial to have the discussion separately from any one person's or group of people's dilemma.

It is a pet-peeve of mine... no, i HATE it when people say "If you ever need anything, anything at all, let me know" and they don't MEAN it. This was discussed to some extent in the other thread, and is one example of what it says in the title. This is not the original thing I wanted to talk about, but I still can't remember what that is despite giving myself a chance, so this is just as good of a way to start.
 
oh ok i remember what it was! Story Time!

I was hanging out at this artsy-fartsy thing (my friends own a gallery/performance space and they live upstairs) and the 2010 olympics were on. There was some talk about figure skating, snow-boarding, and it led to more talk about what criteria they use to add new sports and subtract old ones from the olympics. This in turn led to talk about what constitutes a "sport". My feeling is that something that is "judged" (such as figure skating) is not as much of a "sport" as something that is measured (such as speed skating). It is not my intention to get into that particular debate right here, i'm giving it as background for what happened next:

Some guy sitting near me asked me this - what did I think was some of the criteria they use when determining what should be considered a "sport". Specifically, he phrased it like this, "So what do YOU think is the difference?" and I gave a vague answer, and he asked me for specific examples. Then like half a minute later, he says, "Yeah, I'm not really interested in all this, you know." and I said, "well, YOU ASKED me to tell you more, so I did, now you're making it out like I'm forcing you to listen to something you're not interested in?" he got all :eek: and then said "I'm sorry I offended you", to which I replied, "I'm not offended because you say shit you don't mean."

I told you guys - I make friends EVERYWHERE. People can't get enough of this.
 
It is a pet-peeve of mine... no, i HATE it when people say "If you ever need anything, anything at all, let me know" and they don't MEAN it.

The master was there before you. This is on a different topic, but hear what George Carlin has to say at around 1:45 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PiZSFIVFiU

(I assume people on this forum are grown-ups and won't be put off by Carlin's usual language . . . but here's a disclaimer anyway.)
 
Loosely translated: It is the responsibility of the person being deceived to recognize the deception and play along for the benefit of the deceiver. Otherwise, they have contributed to the problem by "assuming" that the deceiver is being straightforward. People are not straightforward! Shucks. Never "assume" anything anyone says is true, or you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".

I hate that stupid bromide. When "u" assume, "u" don't make an "ass" out of "me". "U" make an "ass" out of "u" and "u" only. It's only when I keep believing "u" after I should know better that I become an "ass".

Believing what someone says because you trust them to not say something they don't mean? NOT AN ASSUMPTION. Not the problem of the receiver - problem of the sender. If you're doing this DELIBERATELY that is YOUR problem.

Enablers, enablers, everywhere.
 
This is on a different topic, but hear what George Carlin has to say at around 1:45 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PiZSFIVFiU

Yeah I got this when my mother died. I don't want to talk about the specifics but it is VERY MUCH the reason this is a big deal to me.

All I want to say is, if you know you don't mean it, just don't fucking say it. Is that too much to ask? Srsly. Goddamn. I realize some people say shit and then realize after the fact that they can't deliver, but I have heard way too many people admit (such as in that other thread) that they knew damn well they didn't mean the shit they said and never expected to be taken up on it.

I just have a problem when people offer me help in my darkest moments and then say "oh but i didn't mean it i thought you knew that". These are people I've known my whole life. Just like the people in the other thread who have known each other most of their adult lives.


And quit being a brat just because they ran out of your favorite color lollipop at the bank drive-up window. (not really part of the original post, but something I often think when I'm reading other posts, and can't say because it's you know, impolite and shit).
 
Being originally from NY I am rarely passive aggressive. I am almost always sincere and open about my feelings.

Unfortunately, because he was a great guy in many ways, I put up with my ex husband's passive aggressiveness way too long. He could also hold a grudge like nobodys business.

Here is a nice clear example. We'd bought a house, it was large, it badly needed painting. We both like the color green, we agree on a shade, I order and pick up the paint for the painters.

As soon as the first bucket of paint goes on, the h says, I don't like that shade of green. I never liked it.


The fact he'd told me he was fine with it didn't matter. Somehow he thought it was my fault we got that color, and he made me suffer for the next 8 years until it was time to paint again.
 
I think i recall you told about that in another thread. Thanks for reminding - that is exactly the definition of passive-aggressive - saying whatever the other person wants to hear then doing what you feel like anyway. I see a lot of communications and behaviours get labeled "passive-aggressive" when they are really not that, but something else. When you say something that refers to someone and you know they know it but don't mention their name, that's not passive-aggressive, i'm not sure what but there probably is a word for it.

I will admit that i employ passive-aggressive methods when necessary, but it isn't necessary in my intimate relationships. It has occasionally been required in certain roommate/neighbor/relative situations, and in work situations when getting a job done is more important than red tape or stroking the egos of old men who are threatened by young women with college degrees, and so on.

tl;dr I use my powers for good and not evil, and as long as you're on my team, you've nothing to fear.
 
I have no useful addition-but YES! Total pet peeve!

Say what you mean-don't say what you don't and FUCKING TAKE TIME TO CONSIDER BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH.

;)
 
My ex was the same. I remember one example too, much less of an issue than a house being painted (I do remember this anecdote as well) which was about shoes. My ex needed new shoes, we went to the store, it was between two pairs.
He keeps asking me which I prefer. While I think one of the pairs looks better, I figure it's his choice and that ultimately I really don't care. So I just tell him "I don't care" as I don't want him to buy a pair of shoes HE is going to wear just because I like the way it looks.
He ends up picking one, which for the record is not the one I prefered, which I genuinely don't care about. We pay, he puts them on and we leave.

Only three steps later (we were pretty much still in front of the store) he starts complaining that he "had" to buy the least comfortable shoes because they were the ones I liked.

So, he bought shoes that were not comfortable, that I happened to like less and that incidentally cost more (I mention that because price is usually a tie-breaker with me), all because I "made him".
I told him, extremely frustrated, that as a matter of fact I though the other pair looked better, and that I certainly didn't make him buy that pair, which would have been a ridiculous concept since they were his shoes to wear.

His reaction was only to get frustrated that I didn't tell him which I wanted him to buy and that he "had" to guess.

I don't care what shoes you buy. There wasn't even a reason for me to be in the store with him, except we were already out for another reason. It's so frustrating how he resented me for a decision HE made on his own, blamed me for the result, and ended up wearing uncomfortable shoes which didn't make anyone happy.

There was no way we could have returned the shoes after he'd worn them outside. In retrospect we should have gone back and bought the other pair, but we were really short on money so it was supposed to be a single purchase we'd make last as long as possible.

There is assuming and assuming. I assumed he liked the shoes he bought because he told me so. He assumed I wanted him to buy the least comfortable shoes despite me never telling him anything to that effect. The two things obviously aren't equal.

It's incredible how something as insignificant as a pair of shoes can create so much resentment. And it adds up, all with very little things that just needed him to be honest and trust me. Instead he was upset that I trusted him at his words and didn't question everything he said.

So frustrating.
 
So funny. I had to read everything above me before I got it. I was going to go with this doesn't happen to me much. I get other things, like asking my mom for a ride to the doctor because I have a fever and don't feel safe to drive. She says, 'oh, I can't, I have lunch date with my friends.'

But Tonberry reminded me. I was very frustrated with CBF because he NEVER asked anything of me. Nothing. This is very much not saying what he meant. 'Every thing is fine.' when it's not. Thing is, I'm not sure he was building resentment, but perhaps. I doubt I'll ever know. He has taken the opportunity once or twice, now that our no-contact is over, to tell me about things he resented. Like I have too many books.

This happens a lot to me because of my physical challenges, too. He knew me for two years before we started dating. Before we actually started dating, he had hugged me one time (he liked to pick people up when he hugged them), and my rib dislocated with a huge thunk right into his chest. It was awesome, his eyes got big as teacups. He was so afraid he'd broken me. I tried to assure him it happened a lot (and I ran off to the chiropractor). So he KNEW. He assured me he had no problem with my condition. And then proceeded to endlessly bitch about it. During the previous breakup (when I had asked him to move out, but before he did), he got drunk one night and allowed as how he would be embarrassed for me to attend a con with him if I had been in a wheelchair.

[in happy contrast, FBF says 'let's go to Disneyland and pop you into a wheelchair.']

I write a lot of that off though, not just for him, but for lots of people. He wants to see himself as a guy who's not bothered by it. But when confronted with reality, he had to confront that he is, in fact, bothered by it. Most people have no idea how to cope with the chronically ill. I have so many friends that are totally bugged by this. For some fortunate reason, I am just not as bugged by it. Less bugged the general population than by lovers, I guess. I believe that most people mean well.
 
he got drunk one night and allowed as how he would be embarrassed for me to attend a con with him if I had been in a wheelchair.

O.O

[grumble] asshole... [/grumble]

I'm trying really hard not to judge him for that feeling. But LYING about the way he felt?!? That was a choice, and a fucked-up one at that.

I haven't really had anything to add to this thread, since I agree that it's something that pisses me the hell off and I don't put up with it. But to put it in it's plainest terms, to me not expressing what one really wants or expressing the exact opposite in the hopes that someone else will figure it out is LYING.

Don't lie to me. Lie and you're out (especially if you claim to love me. Lying coworkers can't be as easily dismissed). Be honest and effing deal with reality. Reality ain't always pretty, but at least then you have the option to do something about it. Can't do anything if you're (knowingly or unknowingly) living a lie.
 
The thing about it that bugs me (and what bothered me in that other thread) is when the person who is making an offer "just to be nice" acts like it's YOUR PROBLEM for not realizing they didn't mean it.

I guess I started this thread just to hear people sound off about it, and share examples. I really don't expect to gain new insights or perspectives or anything like that because most of the regulars here seem disposed to be in agreement (but TGIG, this is like the third time in one week you've agreed with me; this is moving too fast - I'm not ready to take our relationship to that level yet), and this is a fundamental part of self-awareness which is important to strive for, especially when it comes to non-monogamous relationships.
 
The connected pet peeve to this is that I do say what I mean, so freaking believe me when I say it!

If I tell you I don't mind if you have sex with my boyfriend, I really don't mind. I'm not hiding jealousy, I'm not "testing" you to see what you'll say, I really don't care. Additionally, I don't care if you never have sex with him. Whatever. It doesn't matter one way or the other to me.

If I say I'm fine, don't hound me for how I "really" feel, because I seem "off" or "distant." Seriously, I'm fine, the only thing bothering me is you constantly asking me how I am!

If I ask you to postpone a date, because it's been a long week at work and I'm exhausted and stressed and need to recharge, please don't jump to the conclusion that I'm breaking up with you and trying to avoid you or let you down easily. We'll do dinner tomorrow, I swear!

Moonlight tends to over-analyze everything I say and attribute agendas and emotions to me that aren't true. She's had some really crappy lovers in the past who have manipulated her badly, so I understand that it's kind of a survival mechanism for her. It's just frustrating to have every motive questioned when I'm such a straight-forward person.
 
Okay I will admit I have been guilty of this. Growing up it was always my job to take care of others, even the adults in my life. I went without, if that meant without food or clothes or shelter, that's what it meant. It was ingrained in me that if I stood up for my own needs, not even wants, I was selfish.

So for years I would say or offer to be polite. I typically resented myself more than anyone else. It has taken A LOT to learn to say what I mean. It's something hubby and I both still work on in little ways. After realizing we have both hurt each other and working to heal that you feel a little like walking on egg shells. So now we just have to remind each other, I won't know, if you don't tell me, we won't learn to trust that we are honest with each other if we don't actually speak up and be honest!

Sadly, it was actually easier to start with the saying what you mean with strangers. I still get people that will apologize for upsetting me over things and I'll have to explain that I am seriously not upset, just stating how things look to me!
 
Sometimes, though, it is that it actually takes work and effort to know what it is that you really mean. MrS and I were always pretty good about being honest with each other (how we felt, what we thought, when we had a preference, etc.) but we came to an epiphany one day (about 4-5 years into our marriage) that sometimes you actually have to look at what you are asking for and determine if it is REALLY want you want - or if it is a symbol of what you want.

Our story went like this:
Every night I would ask him if he was ready to go to bed (because I was), and he would say "Just a minute, I just want to finish x." So I would wait...and wait...and fume...and wait. After I would ask him a few more times...or a good long time had elapsed...he would reluctantly head off to bed with me. At this point I would be fuming...because I had "waited" so long when I really should have been asleep already.

Eventually, the blow up happened - "Look MrS, if you don't want to go to bed then just SAY so instead of this 'just a minute' shit!" to which he replies "BUT, you keep asking, so I think that going to bed together is important to you - or you would just go to bed whenever you felt like it. And, I DO want to that, because it makes you happy...but I also want to finish this x. So I end up cutting off doing my x short so I can take you to bed and you are STILL not happy."

So, on the surface HE is "lying" with his "just a minute" routine...BUT, as we discussed the whys/wherefores a little further it turns out that I am "lying" too. It turns out that I don't actually care if we go to SLEEP at the same time - I am perfectly happy if he cuddles me for 10 minutes and then goes back to doing what he is doing. But it took a good deal of digging to actually figure that shit out.

After that, I don't ask if he is ready for bed - I ask for a "cuddle-tucking" - he gives me a firm answer on when he can take a "break" for 10-15 minutes (and if it's not for a while, I can decide whether to wait or not). Much better.

We are much better now at trying to figure out what we are actually asking for.

JaneQ

PS. There is also the case where your response to something simply DOES NOT match up with what you, in all honestly, expected your response to be. In which case I don't necessarily think you were "lying"...you were just "wrong." (We are human, it happens.) In that case, I think the sooner you acknowledge that you were wrong, the better.
 
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In which case I don't necessarily think you were "lying"...you were just "wrong." (We are human, it happens.) In that case, I think the sooner you acknowledge that you were wrong, the better.

Okay, this is fair. I will take back any accusation of lying if the person says, "I'm sorry that I didn't think this through more, but I was mistaken/wrong earlier when I said "x". I really think/want "y"."

However, if someone is deliberately avoiding some self-examination of what they really want/think because they don't want to put out the effort, are scared of the answers, or whatever, then I go back to thinking poorly of them for not facing up to/ignoring what some niggling feeling told them they should do.
 
Okay, this is fair. I will take back any accusation of lying if the person says, "I'm sorry that I didn't think this through more, but I was mistaken/wrong earlier when I said "x". I really think/want "y"."

Actually, thank you very much for acknowledging this! I think that you have to realize that people are human, we make mistakes, and acknowledging those mistakes takes courage. At the same time, this is NOT an excuse for avoiding future self-reflection - if someone repeatedly takes this tactic then then I would worry about your next point:

However, if someone is deliberately avoiding some self-examination of what they really want/think because they don't want to put out the effort, are scared of the answers, or whatever, then I go back to thinking poorly of them for not facing up to/ignoring what some niggling feeling told them they should do.

Then, at the very least, they are lying to themselves (I know, I've done it) - I know, I've done it. And, people should be called on it asap.

JaneQ
 
No you look fat without any help from the pants?

I'm on the ipod, i'll check it out later.
 
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