Can I get a bit of feedback?

I could have used a lot more care in how I expressed myself in that post, and I'm sorry for being unclear on many things related to the subject. Still, I think what I meant to say remains basically valid...But I did mean to say that you can't undo the inquiry that has begun to unfold -- whether or not the two of you continue to talk about that inquiry.

I've already told you I disagree with this statement, and yet you persist on repeating it. This is not the opening of some huge and grand inquiry into further life-fulfillment for us, at least not as we are seeing it. This is the chance for me to explore an accidentally sprouted relationship, in and of itself, with my husband's blessing... Yes, there may be more boundaries on it than some others would place on their relationships, but we've always been rather big into boundaries and making sure to not make the other person unhappy or uncomfortable.

You might choose to drop the inquiry somewhat. But I wouldn't recommend that, because the inquiry is valuable whether or not you and your husband decide to open your relationship at some point. Especially valuable to consider, I think, is WHY you might be able and willing to love (romantically) another person besides your husband but the very thought of your husband doing so causes you great distress.

I'm not sure that line of questioning has inherent value outside of a practical situation. I think I am able to love someone in a romantic-ish fashion only because it seems to have happened. I think that for my husband, sex and romance are far more intertwined than they are for me, and that the sexual aspects of that possibility causes me distress. If I was involved in a heavily sexual "romance", or even looking at being in one, he would likewise be distressed. There.

So, yeah, I did suggest some advice, rather indirectly. I suggested keeping that inquiry alive and following it where it goes. That's my advice. And doing THAT doesn't require you to change your relationship from mono to poly (or any other kind of non-monogamy). I suppose the weakness of my post is that this advice was more implicit than explicit.

The weakness of your post is the assumption that there is some sort of inherent value in exploring this past the specific relationship in question. I don't see that there is, especially as DH hasn't expressed a desire for another romantic relationship, and I am not going to go out looking for one my own damn self.

You're right. You can choose to stop the whole process, including the fruitful inquiry into the source or root of the above-mentioned distress. If it is advice you want, I'd advice against retreating from the inquiry.

I believe the discussion is fruitful in that it allows me to be prepared to deal with DH in an honest and real way. I do not see that continued distress, just for the philosophical joy of theorizing, is worth much of anything...or that allowing this one off-shoot to go where it will before continuing on our merry mono path would be a bad thing.
 
I was simply sharing MY perspective, which is borne of a longer duration of experience and inquiry. I may have been slightly hyperbolic in tone, though. ;)

Anyway, I don't think words must be advisory in order to be helpful or useful.

Not hyperbolic. Preachy, perhaps.

Navel-gazing isn't helpful or useful.
 
Well yes, I agree. I kind of spaced on the idea of a PG/PG-13 line being drawn for both spouses.

He drew a PG13 line for me, and I was asking what I should do about the fact that even those lines would make me uncomfortable if he decided to take up a relationship. Do I only go as far as I'd be comfortable letting him go? Is equality necessarily the same thing as parity?
 
I think that ultimately you'll have to do some trial and error to find out what works for you. Some poly relationships do have "out-of-balance" rules/expectations going from one partner to another, but still work because the one partner doesn't have the same interests as the other partner.

What tends to be universally helpful in the midst of uncertainty is to go slow (which you're already doing), communicate a lot (which I think you're doing), re-negotiate periodically as needed, and keep learning all you can about the ins and outs of polyamory. If you're already doing those things, then you'll probably be fine.

A comforting and pragmatic approach. We do take things slow, commuincate often and honestly, and are learning to renegotiate around the needs of the other person. If that's all that can be done, and if out-of-balance sometimes works for other people, then I will continue the introspection and set aside some of the panic. Thank you.
 
DH would not want me in a non-sexual D/s relationship with anyone else, although I wouldn't care if he had one (under a broad set of circumstances). He is alright with me taking a work trip out of town with CG and holding her all night...I would not be okay with him doing that with anyone. Do those kinds of not-in-kind exchanges work for other people?
Sure. I could give you all kinds of examples from my own relationships, but ultimately here's what decides what is "fair": Are you okay with it? Is he okay with it? Are any other people involved okay with it? Ultimately that's all that matters. We learn from the time we're children that "fair" doesn't always mean "equal" or "the same". That applies here too.
 
Sure. I could give you all kinds of examples from my own relationships, but ultimately here's what decides what is "fair": Are you okay with it? Is he okay with it? Are any other people involved okay with it? Ultimately that's all that matters. We learn from the time we're children that "fair" doesn't always mean "equal" or "the same". That applies here too.

I wasn't getting that feeling in these other discussions, but I am glad this is something I am not alone in thinking. Thanks.
 
I disagree with your whole premise, although I understand what you are saying. I feel we more took the lid of a box, stared at the innards, and decided to lift one thing out to try on as a possibility. If that doesn't fit, there's nothing that says we need to revisit the box. The same as people who decide to try some form of BDSM play in their world, and find it doesn't work for them, have no obligation to stay in the kink world.

It probably isn't helpful to keep trying to pick apart everything River said. Lots of people give advice others don't agree with, I'd suggest just letting it go. It's a public forum, if you aren't open to a a wide variety of feedback, then asking for advice probably isn't something you will want to do much of.

I believe it's true, whether or not you ever act on anything after opening the box and looking inside, things HAVE changed a bit, in what you know and think of each other. Just like now that you have told CG how you feel, things can never go back to the way they were if you never told her, because you both are aware that things are different than they were. So you might not revisit the box, but everybody knows what was in the box, and life looks a bit different today than it did before y'all saw what was there.

I believe unequal rules work fine as long as everybody involved is happy with the set up. Obviously if you would like to go to the 1/2 mile with CG but are only comfortable with him getting to the 1/3 mile mark with anybody, there may be more risk that someday down the road he will want to join you in having a relationship that can go to the 1/2 mile mark. All you can really do is take him at his word when he says how he feels and what he wants now and hope he will speak up if he wants something, or if something bothers him.
 
It probably isn't helpful to keep trying to pick apart everything River said. Lots of people give advice others don't agree with, I'd suggest just letting it go. It's a public forum, if you aren't open to a a wide variety of feedback, then asking for advice probably isn't something you will want to do much of.

I believe it's true, whether or not you ever act on anything after opening the box and looking inside, things HAVE changed a bit, in what you know and think of each other. Just like now that you have told CG how you feel, things can never go back to the way they were if you never told her, because you both are aware that things are different than they were. So you might not revisit the box, but everybody knows what was in the box, and life looks a bit different today than it did before y'all saw what was there.

I believe unequal rules work fine as long as everybody involved is happy with the set up. Obviously if you would like to go to the 1/2 mile with CG but are only comfortable with him getting to the 1/3 mile mark with anybody, there may be more risk that someday down the road he will want to join you in having a relationship that can go to the 1/2 mile mark. All you can really do is take him at his word when he says how he feels and what he wants now and hope he will speak up if he wants something, or if something bothers him.

Thank you. I did want advice, whether that advice be that I had to allow him the exact same rules or that it was all up to what made everyone involved comfortable. After being told that my advice was abstract and preachy, I'd have gone away...and River continued to press a viewpoint that was neither unhelpful nor welcome. I find that rude.

I agree that the view changes once one has seen the box, but it doesn't necessarily change drastically, nor does it need to continue to change. Yes, you know there's stuff in the box, but if you decide it isn't worth it, you can pretty well ignore it.

I like the 1/2 mile analogy, although I'd say I just don't want him running the same 1/2 mile I do. Maybe he goes north and I go east?
 
As to your original post in this thread, I was going to respond to your questions:
Am I being utterly unfair in this? Does this make me a terrible person?

No, of course, you're not a terrible person and, by virtue of the fact that you even ask that, obviously you have compassion and are wrestling with these issues. You seem to have a good amount of awareness about your issues/motives for not wanting him to love anyone else nor be sexual with anyone else. It's only unfair if one person dictated what the other should do without asking for input and considering what they want. Fair doesn't always mean equal, and relationships shouldn't be tit-for-tat (IMHO). However, I do suggest you keep asking yourself why your stomach gets into knots, play out some imaginary "what if" scenarios in your head and really pinpoint the things that make you most uncomfortable. More self-knowledge is never a bad thing. And keep talking talking talking.


BTW, River is one of the most well-intentioned, compassionate, spirit-focused, good, good people who post here and I don't think he has a rude bone in his body. You quite misread and misinterpreted what he wrote. I mean, hey, you can't unring a bell - all he was saying is that you've started on a road of questioning the parameters of your marriage, and doing so has altered how you look at each other, the contract of marriage in general, and what choices are available to you. Possibilities have expanded, your knowledge of each other deepened, your communication skills challenged, and so on, and it would be hard not to keep seeking new ways to enhance and nurture your relationship with your DH, no matter what those paths could be - including remaining monogamous if you so wanted. So chill - he was not rude by any means.
 
No, of course, you're not a terrible person and, by virtue of the fact that you even ask that, obviously you have compassion and are wrestling with these issues. You seem to have a good amount of awareness about your issues/motives for not wanting him to love anyone else nor be sexual with anyone else. It's only unfair if one person dictated what the other should do without asking for input and considering what they want. Fair doesn't always mean equal, and relationships shouldn't be tit-for-tat (IMHO). However, I do suggest you keep asking yourself why your stomach gets into knots, play out some imaginary "what if" scenarios in your head and really pinpoint the things that make you most uncomfortable. More self-knowledge is never a bad thing. And keep talking talking talking.

I really do think that I get tied up in knots because any romantic relationship for him would be overtly sexual. This is not proving to be the case for me. The what-if scenarios are what led me to the separation of D/s, sex, touch, kissing and physical closeness. Some of those I could possibly get behind if asked. Some...well the thought of them turns my guts.

As to the other poster, I'm not sure how to better phrase my post. Do I need to ask for "practical advice, anecdotes or pragmatic applicable theory only"? Do I need to ask for people to not assume DH and I want to explore poly to its fullest limits or that we both necessarily want other lovers? I truly don't see the value of uncomfortable self-knowledge for its own sake, unless it has a probable application, and I felt badgered by his multiple responses as he continued to reinforce the same point (which I had said I understood but didn't agree with).

I apologize if I misread his intent, but he seemed very "worldlier-than-thou" and rather sure that his perspective was one I would agree with if only I was able to understand it. I'm not a fan of being talked down to, and (perhaps incorrectly) read his tone as condescending. My apologies if that was the case.
 
Disclaimer: I haven't read the others replies. Just the original post.

My advice? BREATHE, BREATHE. Remember nobody is going anywhere yet that is past the point of no return.

Emotion is just internal weather. Rain is rain. Sun is sun. Emotion is emotion. Some of it is yummy to feel. Some of it is yucky. Let it blow on through.

So you found an area where it feel yucky. Imagining him with another lover feel vomitous to you today. Ok. Acknowledged. Plant a mental flag there.

You could call this leg the "just ID things" part in your mental journey as you contemplate pursuing this friend. You could give yourself permission to just BE at that stage right now. ID and flag for deeper assessment later. That could help reduce the "overwhelm factor." Expect LESS of yourself. Be OK being a newbie here.

Maybe this one area always will bug you. Maybe it will feel different tomorrow, next year, next decade. That we cannot know for sure at THIS point in time, right? So just... ID and flag.

When the time comes to assess and contemplate possible solutions... You don't have to DO anything about emotions if you do not want to. That's choosing to let it just... pass on through and give it time. Sometimes the passing of time solves it, or changes it so it's not so hard to deal with.

You could choose other behaviors to address your emotional management too -- talk to a friend, write in a journal, not pick at it like a thought scab, etc. It's good you try to write in this forum. WTG! :)

Maybe you want a blog thread so collect all this in? In the blog thread area?

Try different behaviors to see what works, then remember it for your "emotional coping toolbox." Stuff that doesn't work -- well, stop that and try a new behavior.

Am I being utterly unfair in this? Does this make me a terrible person?

No. You are experiencing lots of new thoughts/feelings, and some of it feels yummy (like the crushy feelings for your friend) and some of it feels yucky (like dealing with the thought of DH with another person.) That's just Life. Some things are fun to feel. Some are not. In the mental exploration of all this new stuff -- I think it could be easier for you and your anxiety level if you could acknowledge that to yourself. Something like...

"Yeah. Some of it feels fun and some of it just doesn't. But this is all in my head, a safe space to try things on. NOBODY is being hurt here. NOBODY has done anything here."

If it helps you feel any better, in my own Opening Talks with DH I told him point blank "Well, if we're Identifying Options and Possibilities? The easiest one for ME is being the hinge and no metas on the V arms. Tada!" and he just laughed and agreed. Just 3 people in the polyship to have to accommodate. More people in the mix = more wants, needs, and limits to have to coordinate and try to meet. That doesn't make me a horrible person to state it and simply acknowledge that it's the easier workload on ME. It would be! :)

I've pretty much pinpointed my UGH with imagining DH with another as fear of the unknown nutjob stranger. He's precious to me, and it makes me feel grody to think about him being hurt somehow. I imagine with people I already know, or close friends and there is no vomitous. I imagine him with someone I don't know and here it comes -- Anxiety Train. So I don't know if sharing that helps you as you sort out your feelings.

I have anxiety myself -- so for anxiety management? Watching out for emotional flooding times? Or panic attacks? Some uncomfortable thoughts that I have, I just have to vulture. Think it, let it go, think of something else. Think it next time for a bit longer, then let it go. Like spiraling around it and coming closer for a stab at it and them fly off. Because it's too big to take on straight up. Break it down into smaller bits. I don't want to trigger a THING -- either an emotional flood or a panic attack and then have to deal with the original thing and then THAT too!

I don't know if any of that helps with anxiety management.

But remember to BREATHE. You don't have to know everything all at once. And the not knowing? It doesn't have to be disaster. You are safe, with your safe people. You are not in danger. Could remind yourself of these things and do a little self reassure/TLC when you need it.

Hang in there.

Galagirl
 
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What a lot of people do is just ignore responses they don't find helpful, especially if you tell them that you don't find it helpful and they respond again in a way that doesn't make you feel they understand what you are saying. You don't owe it to anybody to explain yourself, and are probably more likely going to be derailed from getting advice you will find useful if you get sidetracked getting into a debate about it. You can ask for specific advice only all you want, but people will say what they think might be helpful, or ask things to clarify your situation so they can give the best advice possible.

Sometimes other people's communication styles are just vastly different than ours. I didn't think he was being condescending, or anything at all for what it's worth, just trying to be helpful coming from his own experiences. When you ask for advice on public forums, your responses will run the gamut and you can't really do anything about that.

"Do I need to ask for people to not assume DH and I want to explore poly to its fullest limits or that we both necessarily want other lovers" Well, yes, you probably do if you want the advice to be specific to that goal - or at least state that you are only asking about having non-sexual relationships. #1 not everybody will read all the posts you have written before responding to a thread, and #2, right or wrong, people may assume that if you're talking about a romantic relationship that sex is either a component, or something you would like to be involved at some point (also lots of people don't read follow up clarifications, so if you say it further along, they might not even see it and only be responding to your original post). I happened to make that assumption myself from your first post.

Anyway, I hope misunderstandings dont keep you from feeling free to post and ask anything you want. Hopefully you aren't still worrying that it's bad you aren't comfortable with him having the same sort of relationship you do when he says he is fine with it, but if you are, that is a good thing to work on in either individual or joint counseling. Maybe you'll find this article helpful.
 
So you found an area where it feel yucky. Imagining him with another lover feel vomitous to you today. Ok. Acknowledged. Plant a mental flag there...

Maybe this one area always will bug you. Maybe it will feel different tomorrow, next year, next decade. That we cannot know for sure at THIS point in time, right? So just... ID and flag.

I think that's wonderful advice. I was, and am, trying to get ahead of some of the snowballing that this feels like sometimes, but as DH hasn't, as yet, asked to have another partner of his own, perhaps just coming back and revisiting it, periodically, will be more helpful.

You could choose other behaviors to address your emotional management too -- talk to a friend, write in a journal, not pick at it like a thought scab, etc. It's good you try to write in this forum. WTG! :)

Maybe you want a blog thread so collect all this in? In the blog thread area?

Not really sure I want to blog it all out, and the only poly friends we have are CG and her primary and I don't want to overwhelm them with this (relatively minor for them, but big for me) thing. I've started a dialogue with a mutual friend of ours who already knows about the whole thing, and a few PMs here with other people have been fairly helpful.

I've pretty much pinpointed my UGH with imagining DH with another as fear of the unknown nutjob stranger. He's precious to me, and it makes me feel grody to think about him being hurt somehow. I imagine with people I already know, or close friends and there is no vomitous. I imagine him with someone I don't know and here it comes -- Anxiety Train. So I don't know if sharing that helps you as you sort out your feelings.

A bit. My anxiety train seems to start at the idea of him touching someone else for more than practical purposes (dancing involves a lot of touch, for example, and that doesn't bother me at all...nor does it bother me to see him in a big sleepy pile with a group of friends). It's the whole fact that his nature intertwines sex and romance so much, mine does not, and I get jittery.

I am less so when not focused on this specific issue, however, which was simply something I felt I should emotionally address as a measure of fore-thought and fairness.
 
What a lot of people do is just ignore responses they don't find helpful, especially if you tell them that you don't find it helpful and they respond again in a way that doesn't make you feel they understand what you are saying.

I'm seeing that is the case here. I've not had that experience in the rest of my internet life, so that wasn't my default setting. I just can't understand why someone would feel a need to keep pushing when they've been told that their advice to a stranger is being ill received.

Sometimes other people's communication styles are just vastly different than ours. I didn't think he was being condescending, or anything at all for what it's worth, just trying to be helpful coming from his own experiences. When you ask for advice on public forums, your responses will run the gamut and you can't really do anything about that.

Entirely possible.

#1 not everybody will read all the posts you have written before responding to a thread, and #2, right or wrong, people may assume that if you're talking about a romantic relationship that sex is either a component, or something you would like to be involved at some point (also lots of people don't read follow up clarifications, so if you say it further along, they might not even see it and only be responding to your original post). I happened to make that assumption myself from your first post.

I wish I had been able to edit and incorporate information from posts down-thread into the original, once it became clear, but I wasn't ware of how to phrase it best. I'm new, and still getting the hang of both this online community and its best practices.

Anyway, I hope misunderstandings dont keep you from feeling free to post and ask anything you want. Hopefully you aren't still worrying that it's bad you aren't comfortable with him having the same sort of relationship you do when he says he is fine with it, but if you are, that is a good thing to work on in either individual or joint counseling. Maybe you'll find this article helpful.

Thank you for the link. We're searching our insurance for a poly-friendly therapist, just for the ability to talk these things out with a disinterested third party, and we've signed up for a local poly-workshop. We shall see how that goes.
 
I can't tell you what's right, wrong, or unfair but sometimes in poly, things aren't equal. In my case, it was my husband who had an element of discomfort upon my revelation that I was poly. He would never be OK with me having another relationship with a man outside of him. Fortunately for him and us, I don't have that desire either. Doesn't tickle my fancy. In the beginning, he was happy/relieved that the other person I wanted to be with was a female.

Your husband may very well end up staying mono, and your situation could end up being a V, with you being the hinge. Poly is not for everyone, and if that's not what he wants, that's just the way it is. Kudos to you for giving him the option and the choice.

Could your feelings of disgust stem from the fact that for years, that intimate bond has only been between the two of you? Why does it bother you that some other woman could potentially--not definitely--be getting what I presume to be half of you? (I view my husband as the other half to my heart's duet.)

What about a potential threat or insecurity? Some women view other women as a threat and it tampers with their confidence. Whereas before, you might have been wholly confident and secure in your relationship and your role as his wife and mother to his children. Now, there is a chance that someone else that can fit that tab sans the title of wife. She could still the be mother to his children. She could still be his confidante. She could still be his best friend or one of them. She could still be the woman or one of the women he could spend the rest of his life with. Is it possible that you are feeling that? You stated that you don't mind if he finds women attractive or vice versa, but you don't want to think about him being with anyone but you. It's rather possible that the thought of another woman giving him something or having something that you can't/don't have threatens you.

How do you think he really feels about your desire to be with someone else? Does it seem like he is bothered, or does not feel like he is adequate enough to meet your needs? Did he have a lot of questions, or was it more listening to you done on his end?

As far as the CG, take it one day at a time. Feeling and emotions are just that. No one says you have to act on them. Sort of like...I may love you, but we do not need to be together for this reason or that reason.

Seek clarity as to why the thought of him being with someone else bothers you. Do you have any qualms with seeking someone outside of your marriage? Talk to your husband and see how he really feels. Not a surface answer like, "If it makes you happy, I'm happy." Delve a little deeper. Keep communicating with the both of them--separately and jointly. Good luck with the therapist and the workshop! Happy New Year! :)
 
I can't tell you what's right, wrong, or unfair but sometimes in poly, things aren't equal. In my case, it was my husband who had an element of discomfort upon my revelation that I was poly. He would never be OK with me having another relationship with a man outside of him. Fortunately for him and us, I don't have that desire either. Doesn't tickle my fancy. In the beginning, he was happy/relieved that the other person I wanted to be with was a female.

Your husband may very well end up staying mono, and your situation could end up being a V, with you being the hinge. Poly is not for everyone, and if that's not what he wants, that's just the way it is. Kudos to you for giving him the option and the choice.

It seems that way. DH, like your husband, would have felt hurt had I wanted a relationship with another man. I didn't, don't, and never have. CG, on the other hand, offers me a different set of experiences that are utterly different than the relationship I have with him and he doesn't feel particularly threatened by her...partially because she is female, yes, but also because he knows her well and she has no desire for a long-term, serious, partnership with me. Also in play is the fact that I move incredibly slowly, sexually and physically.

Could your feelings of disgust stem from the fact that for years, that intimate bond has only been between the two of you? Why does it bother you that some other woman could potentially--not definitely--be getting what I presume to be half of you? (I view my husband as the other half to my heart's duet.)

There's some of that. I don't feel like our marriage would be at risk, or that he'd want a second wife/mother-to-his-children/etc. We already live in quite the village, with roommates and close friends that are in our lives deeply for periods. For me, the discomfort stems from the idea of him sharing something that, up until now, has only been ours. Sex, for us, has always been intertwined with our love for each other, our desire to grow old together, our spirituality and our home.

How do you think he really feels about your desire to be with someone else? Does it seem like he is bothered, or does not feel like he is adequate enough to meet your needs? Did he have a lot of questions, or was it more listening to you done on his end? ... Seek clarity as to why the thought of him being with someone else bothers you. Do you have any qualms with seeking someone outside of your marriage? Talk to your husband and see how he really feels. Not a surface answer like, "If it makes you happy, I'm happy." Delve a little deeper. Keep communicating with the both of them--separately and jointly. Good luck with the therapist and the workshop!

He listened, asked questions, expressed fears. We talked to each other and to her (and her primary BF). He thinks it has to potential to be something quite lovely for she and I to explore, so long as he's not left out of the goings-on in my head/heart. He doesn't want me engaging in a D/s relationship with her (even though we're both kinda kinky), and he's unsure of how he feels about she and I blatantly fucking, but as I see this relationship as one of more-intimate friendship with physical aspects to it, not something overtly sexual, he's happy that the part of me interested in women has (perhaps) found a way to be expressed.

He's the one that found this forum, the workshop, and is doing the legwork on the therapist hunt. He also shoos me out the door to spend time with her, and delights in my moments of "squee" she she holds my hand, or when she kissed me goodbye at the airport. As an open and honest communicator, I've yet to see him balk in anyway other than confusion or passing fears/concerns...which we then talk about at length.

Also comforting to me and he, CG does not date couples or engage in threesomes, as a rule. This makes your situation one that is highly unlikely, even if it was something he started to desire.

As far as the CG, take it one day at a time. Feeling and emotions are just that. No one says you have to act on them. Sort of like...I may love you, but we do not need to be together for this reason or that reason.

If it never goes any further than it has, I will be alright. I have a vague yearning, a deplorably large crush on her, and an acute desire to sweep her into my arms and kiss her when I see her, to snuggle on a couch with her and do nothing. Oftentimes she is alright with the cuddling; rarely but occasionally she is willing to indulge the kissing. It may go further, it may not. Regardless, I do not think I will be out looking for a woman to date. The education (reading, workshops, therapy) are being done in prep for the possibility...if it does not transpire then I've learned a lot about the way other people relate, a bit about my own feelings, and I can set this whole thing aside.
 
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