Holy crap, my monoship is a novel. Advice welcome.

SkylerSquirrel

New member
As you can guess from the title, this is not about a poly relationship, it is about my dissolving monoship. But some of you have a lot of relationship wisdom in general so I am looking for advice, encouragement, whatever you have.

I was drawn to polyamory because of the enormous amount and intensity of love I am capable of giving.

This is also what drew me to my soon-to-be-ex-husband. He is hard to love. He has poor social skills, although he can be very engaging when he wants to be. He is a person who simply does not like other people and doesn’t put much effort into learning how to get along with them. He has at least one psychological/emotional disorder, maybe more. He is moody, has a volatile temper, and is a pathological liar.

And I got together with him because I wanted the challenge. He was so unlovable and yet I could love him (in that unconditional, not-necessarily-sexual way, although obviously I was highly attracted to him as well). It was the opportunity to “scale the Mount Everest of love” if you will. People warned me about him and I was like “I KNOW, but I am strong and capable and I can handle him!” I kind of wanted to prove something. And I was thinking from a mono mindset – if one person is all you get, I wanted my “one relationship” to be epic. I didn’t want to be with just a Nice Guy, I wanted to be with someone who made the story interesting.

(When we first got together I was totally in Invincible Teenager mode. Then as we got older, everyone in the world wanted to give me advice and tell me what to do about my relationship with him, and finally I was like SCREW YOU I’M DOING WHAT I WANT EVEN IF IT TURNS OUT TO BE A MISTAKE. And I’m glad I did it that way. I don’t think I would have learned as much about myself otherwise.)

Anyway, the thing is, it seemed to work! When I first got together with him, his behavior seemed to improve exponentially. He even admitted to me that he did have a propensity to lie a lot, and he didn’t know why. You don’t normally get that admission out of a pathological liar. At least, I don’t think so. (Qualification: I saw the lying as no big deal because it was always patently obvious when he was lying, or at least stretching the truth. I didn’t see him as capable of truly deceiving me.) Even his family noticed that I seemed to be making a real difference in his life. But due to life circumstances, our relationship turned into an LDR for a while, and during this time all the positive effects seemed to wear off and he went back to his normal antisocial self.

Part of the reason our relationship lasted so long is that his family was wonderfully supportive of us. They are all much saner than he is, they just put up with him because he’s family and they love him. So I did the same thing. And the good times were REALLY good. But the good times happened less and less often, and he turned into basically a grouch that I tried to ignore most of the time while occasionally trying to do nice things for him. He became increasingly dissatisfied with me and eventually told me to leave. And I did. Rather gratefully, to be honest. One of the big things I have learned is that Unconditional Love does not equal Unconditionally Staying With. In some situations it is healthier to love from a distance.

But I was, apparently, not as immune to his emotionally manipulative tendencies as I’d originally thought. He has an emotional hold on me. He has this way of convincing me that he’s absolutely right and I should agree with him even though I KNOW he’s spewing a bunch of BS. It’s this authoritative tone of voice that he gets. Also, he knows that I do desire to make him happy and he takes advantage of that. Maybe not even purposefully. Maybe he does it without thinking, like the lying. Either way, I find myself hanging on every word of his, even now. It’s almost hypnotic.

And we are going through a divorce and I have to make myself NOT listen to him in order to protect myself and our kid (1 year old).

So here are some current complications:
- I want him to have as little influence as possible on our kid. I don’t want our kid learning these behaviors from him.
- I do want him to have a relationship with our kid. I think that would be good for him. And he is really good with kids when he’s not angry at them. (I have never seen him get really angry at a kid but I have reason to believe it wouldn’t be pretty.)
- I want his family to have a relationship with our kid, as they have been heavily involved in kid's life.
- I have no idea how to get the courts to take his mentally and emotionally abusive tendencies into account. There’s not any particular incident that I can point to as obvious. It’s a lot of memories all muddled together in a soup. And it’s not very obvious to an outside observer.

I feel like I can’t think logically about how to deal with him, ESPECIALLY in the heat of the moment. I don’t get explosively angry at him like I used to, thank goodness, and I at least notice that he’s manipulating me now. But still it is really hard to overcome the effect he has on me.

I’d love some outside opinions. I feel like I can’t really share this with most people, as they would basically say he’s a horrible person and give me reactive advice. I don’t need reactive advice, I need honest, sane, boundary-setting advice. Or encouragement or SOMETHING.
 
DISCLAIMER: LONG. Trigger topic for me. I am VERY sorry you endure this. :(
I will try to keep even keel. Sorry it is a novel back!


Given these things...(purple mine, designed to help YOU think all this out and make your decisions. Not that I actually expect you to answer ME here. Your life decisions are yours to make. I have faith you can decide things for YOURSELF. )

  • 1) I am not immune to his emotionally manipulative tendencies. (Could put this on a card by the phone. Or clear tape it on there.)
  • 2) He has this way of convincing me that he’s absolutely right and I should agree with him even though I KNOW he’s spewing a bunch of BS. (Could choose to "Agree" to his side right away, and walk away and make your OWN choice. Then you minimize your exposure to his brainwash BS. You do not have to lie. Just say "Yeah, I hear what you are saying." He can take that as agreement. But you can just confirm your ears are operational.)
  • 3) He knows that I do desire to make him happy and he takes advantage of that. (Could put making YOU healthy above all. Even making him happy. If you enjoy people pleasing -- please your kid. Child is not dangerous to your health.)
  • 4) We are going through a divorce and I have to make myself NOT listen to him in order to protect myself and our kid (1 year old). (Could put ALL these bullets on a card actually. In your purse. To read before, during, and after any engagement with him. )

How am I making these decisions:

  • I want him to have as little influence as possible on our kid. I don’t want our kid learning these behaviors from him. (Influence on kid happens via time spent with kid. Since you cannot trust him not to be emotionally manipulative to YOU an adult person, how is exposing a child person with no judgement at ALL helpful toward the goal of of him having little influence on child? Is his condition stable? Is he medicated? What's the dx? Are his disorders an impediment to caring for child properly and safely?)

  • I do want him to have a relationship with our kid. I think that would be good for my soon-to-be-ex. And he is really good with kids when he’s not angry at them. (How does this reconcile with what is good for your SON? How does this reconcile with at least 3 & 4 above? (But really 1-4) Since this person is unstable, how will you control when he is or is not angry and your child's exposure to that? You cannot control your's ex's mood meter. You can control your child's time with whom somewhat.)

  • I want his family to have a relationship with our kid, as they have been heavily involved in kid's life. (that has nothing to do with him. So 1-4 do not apply UNLESS they break boundaries with you. Like if you left kid with grandma and grandma left kid with ex and ex got angry and punched kid out... sounds like you could spent time thinking here on what wants, needs, and limits are for the extended relatives? Then talk to the relatives in question? What would you write out for yourself?)


  • I have no idea how to get the courts to take his mentally and emotionally abusive tendencies into account. There’s not any particular incident that I can point to as obvious. It’s a lot of memories all muddled together in a soup. And it’s not very obvious to an outside observer. Print speakoutloud list. Highlighter each and every single item. Make a journal if incidents, esp now if new ones pop up in the "separation abuse" category and "use the children against you" category. That's a start. Call up local women's shelters for advice -- they have seen it ALL and perhaps you can get a counseling appt for how to best organize your evidence in divorce process. Also talk to your divorce mediator/lawyer person.

  • I feel like I can’t think logically about how to deal with him, ESPECIALLY in the heat of the moment. I don’t get explosively angry at him like I used to, thank goodness, and I at least notice that he’s manipulating me now. But still it is really hard to overcome the effect he has on me. Read the entire speakoutloud.net website. You are not the first. You won't be the last. *hug*

    Could think about what is best for YOU now. And what is best for KID now. Before you think about what is best for him. Everyone holds their OWN bag first. Are you holding YOUR baggage first? Then the kid? In that order?

    You are now a single mother, you have no emotional obligation to this soon-to-be-ex man. You are in the process of emotional detachment. It IS gonna be hard and you ARE gonna go through the stages of grief. You are vulnerable -- watch out for Mr Wacky piling on fresh at this time.

    You can get through this. Hang in there
    .

MY CURRENT REALITY

I’d love some outside opinions. I feel like I can’t really share this with most people, as they would basically say he’s a horrible person and give me reactive advice. I don’t need reactive advice, I need honest, sane, boundary-setting advice. Or encouragement or SOMETHING.

You are a grown up person. You are fully capable of making your own grown up decisions. You have decided to divorce this man for your own very good grown up reasons. Just keep on keepin' on lady! Move it forward one baby step at a time.

I am sure you can set limits just fine. It's the he keeps on crossing the line. Right? He lacks respect. If this is the case?

Be specific -- boundary line with your limit. Have a consequence. DO the consequence.

You are a firm but fair traffic cop. Traffic cops DIRECT how to drive safely around on the tricky road. They don't tell you WHY to drive or WHERE you are going to do WHAT. They assume you know how to operate your car.

You are a traffic cop on the road of you-ness. If he wants to drive on this you-road? HERE is the road he has access to. Other roads on this property are PRIVATE and need ID card. He has no card to access those parts. Security clearance revoked. Here is HOW to drive on that road. Here's what happens when he drives off the road. He asks you things -- it is a green for go, red for no, yellow -- proceed with caution. Tell him his traffic light color. [/color]

Ex: "No. I am not willing to talk to you on the phone in general. (the red light limit). I am willing talk on the phone about divorce things (yellow light) [/COLOR]but only if you email me your agenda. I add my bullets points. We schedule talk time and go down the printed agenda bullets to keep us on track. (the How of green light-ness) No rambling on and on and on. No going round and round in circles. (red lights) 60 min. Times up, it is up, table agenda for next session. (red light limit and how of green lightness to future) Respect my boundaries, those are the limits. You do not respect? I hang up phone. (CONSEQUENCE)"

If he gets pissy about you being MEAN or something because you hang up phone?

How are you being mean? You stated the thing that you are willing to do, and how you are willing to engage. He doesn't have to engage. You are in charge of how you behave. He is in charge of how he behaves. What is more fair? He behaved thus. THIS happened. He was in charge of avoiding the consequence or not by his behavior. Plenty of red lights, yellow lights, and green lights on how to drive on the road of you ness. Not your prob he bad driver and he fell off road!

Sigh. Expect song and dance like that. Set CONSEQUENCES. :(

(cont)
 
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I am currently supporting an abused friend who is in divorce process too. I frequently check the speak out loud stages to make sure MY role as her friend are in the right bucket.

So I totally get it, and I totally know. You want someone to give you calmness. Not more people to give you more wackiness. ASK for this from your people. I ask my friend to tell me to piss off if I cross a line, but I also ask to tell me where she is at today and what support shape she needs from me.

SAY to your people what you need:

I need you to stop using the world “should.” I will make the final decision for MY life. I need helping seeing my options, not making my decision. Use the word “could” with me. “I could do this. I could to that.” Then I can see my choices and I will decide. Thanks.

I need to be normal OUT for a change – air me out! Take me to cheap coffee. Lunch. A movie. Bookstore. I do not care.

I need normal BUSY for a change – give me a boring normal job. Wash dishes. Mow lawn. Whatever.

I need normal STAYING IN for a change – play a board game with me. Let's watch TV. Do a puzzle. Paint kiddie crafts.

I am tired. But I do not know ____. I need you to let me nap while you Google things up for me to read.

I am at Stage ___ at speak out loud. I need you to read that stage article, and play inside that bucket for friends and family support people,. You are leaking on me. I need you to stop. Do not ADD to my plate. Take AWAY burden.

Making it hard to leave is a tactic. I tell her this. She's taken the speak out loud to highlighter. TWICE. I suggest every time he does a THING to go look up what section and what bullet. Note it in her divorce diary of evidence for why she wants to leave the marriage. Highlighter it all again as many times as you need!

In fact, highlighter and write out this sheet too.

  • My partner does/does not give or demonstrate acceptance to me. Partner's actions:
  • My partner does/does not give or demonstrate affection to me. Partner's actions:
  • My partner does/does not give or demonstrate appreciation to me. Partner's actions:

And so on down ALL those words.

And this one. Your feelings. Are your needs mostly met? Or mostly NOT met? Then if shenanigans happens you can go reread your OWN words/advice/realities.

I tell my abused friend -- " You might love him. Does he love back? Not in words. Talk is cheap. Does he love back in ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR. Or is it all about him? Honeybunch sweetie pie false words to get him what HE wants? "

That also helps her NOT get sucked back in. She ignores his words (hard, I know) and lists his ACTIONS.


Watch for tactic hopping bullshit
. Develop that skill -- freshen up your bullshit meter if it has gotten dull. Check the Speak Out Loud list. Did he change gears from one thing to another? Watch separation abuse and using the child against you closely since you are at the divorce place.

So go out and take soundings. The more you talk the better – for yourself to unload. Also for feedback. If people are having a cow left and right -- even if they are all reactive and annoying because of HOW they deliver their feedback? Listen to the words, not the delivery style. It's telling you something. That his behavior is NOT normal. You are CORRECT in wanting a divorce from wacky.

Since you HAVE started divorce process, you sound like you are at least at Stage 4. So read stage 3, stage 4, and stage 5 just to be on guard for what may/may not happen at this place. Especially for what you might feel and how to do emotional management.

Guard against minimizing damage done to make it easier to bear inside your head and heart -- the mental bruises you've been given. Speak it. Out Loud. On paper. For you divorce needs. You have a kid to protect. You have YOU to protect.

It's ok to love him. But remember you own words:

One of the big things I have learned is that Unconditional Love does not equal Unconditionally Staying With. In some situations it is healthier to love from a distance.


For you to thrive? A one-sided relationship cannot take the place of a two sided relationship where you are shown love and loving behavior BACK.

Hang in there. Remember you have worth, dignity, and value. Even during divorce time from a manipulative ex.

You are being brave, and strong for you and your kid. Kudos to you! But be watchful of more shenanigans from him. He's a known shenanigan-er! :eek:

There is a real grown up REASON you decided to leave -- and that is YOU making the choices. YOU are in charge. You are a grown up person who can make her own decisions.

You run the SkylerSquirrel Show over there. YOUR life. You can do it!

hugs
Galagirl
 
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And we are going through a divorce and I have to make myself NOT listen to him in order to protect myself and our kid (1 year old).

So here are some current complications:
- I want him to have as little influence as possible on our kid. I don’t want our kid learning these behaviors from him.
- I do want him to have a relationship with our kid. I think that would be good for him. And he is really good with kids when he’s not angry at them. (I have never seen him get really angry at a kid but I have reason to believe it wouldn’t be pretty.)
- I want his family to have a relationship with our kid, as they have been heavily involved in kid's life.
- I have no idea how to get the courts to take his mentally and emotionally abusive tendencies into account. There’s not any particular incident that I can point to as obvious. It’s a lot of memories all muddled together in a soup. And it’s not very obvious to an outside observer.

This thread has hit so many nerves for me that I want to throw something.

How DARE you willingly have a kid with someone and then decide he should have no influence in this kids life. OK, so he may not be the best role model, but my God who is? You say that he has never seen him get really angry with a kid, yet you THINK he would be dangerous but you have no proof. I know a great many people who go ballistic when it comes to adults, but are completely different with kids.

If you truly believe this man will endanger your kid's life, ask for supervised visitation, but do NOT try and cut off contact. Make arrangements/agreements with him, that if things get to be too much for him, you will be close by to rescue them both.

My brother and a friend of mine are currently in custody issues where the ex-wife (or soon to be ex) is doing everything possible to remove all influence these dads have in their kids lives. These women have been advised how to lie/manipulate the courts "to get their way" and gain total control over their kids. The deception because they no longer want anything to do with these men or they want revenge is astounding and sickening.
 
Okay. Thanks, that really does help. I don't mind reading long things.

I'm reading through the speakoutloud website. Here is an additional complication: I have so far been allowing him to watch the kid a lot. He lives with his parents so I have been less concerned than I otherwise would be, because I figured his parents would put a stop to any abusive behavior.

This is how it happened:
  • I originally wanted to limit his time spent with kid.
  • He demanded fifty-fifty custody. Made me feel like I was being selfish and unfair. Made me believe that the courts would order fifty-fifty anyway.
  • I signed the fifty-fifty agreement that his lawyer drew up, wanting to make him happy and not cause conflict and all that other stuff.
  • Later thought better of it and, on the advice of others, found my own lawyer. He was going to file for divorce but hadn't yet, so I went ahead and filed myself. Asked for a normal custody plan where I had primary residential custody and he saw him only a couple of times per week and had to pay child support.
  • He is disputing that, on the grounds that we "have been" doing the fifty-fifty arrangement so far - except we have NOT, because his job makes that impossible. So his family has been watching the kid when he can't. He says that counts. I say it doesn't. And from what I've heard, the courts would agree that it doesn't count.
The whole reason he wanted fifty-fifty custody - and he has told me this himself - is he did not want to pay child support.

Also, before he said he wanted a divorce, I did nearly 100% of the childcare. It was like pulling teeth to get him to help me.

Also, I need *someone* to help me watch kid so I can work, and he and his family have been providing that for me.
So I would feel like a jerk suddenly fighting for custody again, and I have said multiple times that I do not want a long drawn-out custody battle. But if it is better for the kid in the long run I will do it.

I'm just worried about it looking like I suddenly changed my mind and backed out on my promises and things like that.

I'm vulnerable to accusations of being a bad person and selfish and things like that, I guess. I start to believe them subconsciously, even though *consciously* I know I'm a good person and I'm just trying to do what's best for me and my kid. And I don't know how to fight back against such accusations.

Also: I don't have a lot of money. My lawyer is doing my case at a reduced flat fee. If this turns into more of a custody battle I will probably have to pay more.

I have told my lawyer that he is possibly emotionally abusive but wasn't able to give much detail, and so we didn't go down that track.

And NO he does not meet my needs. He has not met my needs for a long time. But I was raised to believe that marriage is not about getting someone to meet your needs - marriage is about giving to the other person. There is the social idea that getting divorced just because your needs aren't getting met is a selfish thing to do. "You're ruining your family for the sake of your own happiness!" It's really pervasive.

I have this thing where I need to prove that I Am The Person Who Can Love The Most Regardless Of What It Does To Me.

But I think I have proven that by now. Gone past proving it. Made some dumb decisions trying to prove it. Now I just need to figure out where to go from here.
 
50/50 Custody doesn't usually work well and really isn't in the best interest of the kid. Kids need routine, kids need one place to call home. Request a mediator for the custody nitty-gritty, it's cheaper than an attorney and they will likely have opinions and suggestions for stuff you didn't even think about. It also might be helpful to "try" certain arrangements and agree to re-evaluate everything in 6 months or something. What works for the one year old, won't necessarily work when the kid starts school.

While his family watching your kid may not count toward custody, it should count toward child support (IMO). What would you have to pay for child care if his family wasn't picking up the slack? Talk with your attorney/mediator, but you may want to agree on a number for child support and then figure out what can be counted as credit (or partial credit) toward that, like child care, medical, rent or mortgage payments on your residence, etc.
 
Divorce -- Take notes of the behaviors. What was said, what you feel, what you worry about. In the light of doing what is best for child. Get a mediator to hammer out details and put in a checkpoint. Like until this kid reaches their majority and is an adult themselves, we will review agreements every ____ mos to update needs for growing kid.

Focus on what YOU want. Ask for what YOU want. For your alimony things.

Focus on what YOU feel, Ask for things to assuage those feelings on the kid things. Him saying he wants to get out of child support -- that's disturbing to me.

He's not the judge in your case. He's him.

Your judge is your judge. Your judge will listen to your side and his. And then you see what you see. BREATHE. But stop listening to him. Get a third party person in there. A mediator and/or lawyer.

There is the social idea that getting divorced just because your needs aren't getting met is a selfish thing to do. "You're ruining your family for the sake of your own happiness!" It's really pervasive.

You are feeling community pressure from WHO? Could draw back on this old strength then.

Then as we got older, everyone in the world wanted to give me advice and tell me what to do about my relationship with him, and finally I was like SCREW YOU I’M DOING WHAT I WANT EVEN IF IT TURNS OUT TO BE A MISTAKE. And I’m glad I did it that way. I don’t think I would have learned as much about myself otherwise.

Whatever well you drew on then to pilot your destiny and live your life as you see fit? Draw on that well once more.

I have this thing where I need to prove that I Am The Person Who Can Love The Most Regardless Of What It Does To Me.

That is a wrinkle you must iron out and reconcile for yourself in your character.

I do not believe in self-sacrifice to love to the point of self-damage in my healths -- mental health, emotional health, physical health, or spiritual health.

But I think I have proven that by now. Gone past proving it. Made some dumb decisions trying to prove it. Now I just need to figure out where to go from here.

Well, good judgement comes from experience. Experience sometimes comes from bad judgement. You will get there. Hang in there.

GL!
GG
 
How DARE you willingly have a kid with someone and then decide he should have no influence in this kids life. OK, so he may not be the best role model, but my God who is? You say that he has never seen him get really angry with a kid, yet you THINK he would be dangerous but you have no proof. I know a great many people who go ballistic when it comes to adults, but are completely different with kids.

Perhaps you missed the part where I DID say I WANTED HIM TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS KID.

See, GG, this is my problem. People are going to read my situation wrong and think that I'm trying to steal the kid from his dad for revenge. I'm not. I'm not trying to hurt him. I don't want to deceive anyone. I have legitimate concerns here.

But I'm sure his lawyer is going to paint it like I'm evil and I'm trying to steal him, and honestly I don't know if I can handle that.

The other reason I am concerned about him being around my kid is that his father was physically and emotionally abusive to him as a child (something no one in his family will admit but the things they have described are abusive). Abuse tends to perpetuate itself through generations.

Also, since I don't have to pay for childcare at this time, no childcare cost was figured into calculating the child support. Ergo, his payments are less than they would otherwise be.

I actually could care less about the child support as long as I am actually able to support us. I simply want to be the primary parenting figure in my child's life. I want my child's relationship with his father to be more like that of an adult friend or relative. He cannot be trusted to meet a child's emotional needs.

I sympathize with your brother and your friend, but this is not that sort of situation. Please read more carefully and don't make assumptions like that.
 
I do not believe in self-sacrifice to love to the point of self-damage in my healths -- mental health, emotional health, physical health, or spiritual health.

Yes. What I have learned is that if I get to the point of damaging my own health, I CANNOT do any good for anyone else. It's the put-on-your-own-oxygen-mask-first thing.

Also, he is no longer The One Person I Love Most now that I have a kid. He has to share that title now if not give it up entirely. And as you have pointed out and as I mentioned in my blog thread, he can (in theory) take care of himself - kid can't. Also, none of my "loving behaviors" have done him any good so far. So going to cut my losses there.

My lawyer says the most likely thing is that the judge will send us to mediation. That is what I want because I DO want to get a neutral third party involved. (Five, for some reason, is adamantly against this. He's like "Why do we need mediation? We don't need mediation!")

So I'm basically waiting until that happens in order to voice all my concerns. What I'm wondering is, do I need to bring them up earlier? Should I send highlighted Speak Out Loud list to lawyer and ask her - do we wait for mediation to bring this up, or bring it up in court?
 
But I'm sure his lawyer is going to paint it like I'm evil and I'm trying to steal him, and honestly I don't know if I can handle that.

You already handle it. You ARE handling it. You are not also required to LOVE it. Chin up. Your life is YOURS.
The other reason I am concerned about him being around my kid is that his father was physically and emotionally abusive to him as a child (something no one in his family will admit but the things they have described are abusive). Abuse tends to perpetuate itself through generations.

Tell lawyer concern. Write all this stuff down on index cards. Fork over to lawyer. People cannot be mind readers.

Yes. What I have learned is that if I get to the point of damaging my own health, I CANNOT do any good for anyone else.

Correct.

Also, he is no longer The One Person I Love Most now that I have a kid. He has to share that title now if not give it up entirely.

Correct.

My lawyer says the most likely thing is that the judge will send us to mediation. That is what I want because I DO want to get a neutral third party involved. (Five, for some reason, is adamantly against this. He's like "Why do we need mediation? We don't need mediation!")

Because if YOU have 5% of the pie? You are open to mediation to get more fair pie distribution. If I have 95% of the pie? I'm not as eager to go to mediation to give YOU more pie. If I was motivated to give you pie in the first place, you'd have it, no?

Just state your concerns, wants, needs. All your puzzle pieces. Openly, honestly, without lies. Do not perjure. Let court do as it does.

So I'm basically waiting until that happens in order to voice all my concerns. What I'm wondering is, do I need to bring them up earlier? Should I send highlighted Speak Out Loud list to lawyer and ask her - do we wait for mediation to bring this up, or bring it up in court?

Why are you wondering here instead of asking the lawyer -- "Is this useful?" Bring it up every step of the way to anyone who wants information! People are not mind readers.

It know it is hard, but FOCUS. Your lawyer sorts all your things out for you to prepare your case and present YOUR best scenario.

So give lawyer all the puzzle pieces you got!

Let lawyer organize it into piles of what is useful in case or not useful. That's their job.

GalaGirl
 
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Okay, so here's my to do list:

- Highlighter Speak Out Loud list. Send to lawyer.

- Remind lawyer of main concerns.

I am almost positive I have told my lawyer about Five being abused as a kid, but it won't hurt to remind her again.

You already handle it. You ARE handling it. You are not also required to LOVE it. Chin up. Your life is YOURS.

I'm handling his lawyer disagreeing with me about custody arrangements. I am NOT currently handling him painting me as Evil Child Stealer. No one is slandering my character yet. I don't want to have to handle that. But I do not have to worry about that yet.
 
I'm handling his lawyer disagreeing with me about custody arrangements. I am NOT currently handling him painting me as Evil Child Stealer. No one is slandering my character yet. I don't want to have to handle that. But I do not have to worry about that yet.

Ignore. He works for his boss -- your soon to be ex.

Keep your nose clean, get through the process.

Get your own lawyer caught up with all puzzle pieces. That's YOUR focus.

GG
 
Here is what I concluded from the SpeakOutLoud list:

He does almost all of the behaviors under these categories:
- One-sided power games
- Mind games
- Emotional unkindness and violation of trust
- Denial, minimizing, blaming
- Domestic slavery

He does about half of the behaviors under these categories:
- Degradation (involving excessive criticism)
- Economic abuse under "she is put in charge of the money" (involving him overspending)
- Separation abuse (involving fear/blackmail)

Plus one or two things in most of the other categories. He has done nothing in the "overprotection and caring" or "physical abuse" lists.
 
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I'm so, so sorry you're having to go through this. I just wanted clarification on something for myself, if you don't mind:

He lives with his parents so I have been less concerned than I otherwise would be, because I figured his parents would put a stop to any abusive behavior.

and

The other reason I am concerned about him being around my kid is that his father was physically and emotionally abusive to him as a child (something no one in his family will admit but the things they have described are abusive). Abuse tends to perpetuate itself through generations.

Ummm...whuck? Am I misreading this? Or is the father who was physically and emotionally abusive to his own son now one of the people helping watch your child? Hopefully there is a piece I'm missing, but if his dad didn't recognize the abusive behaviors as something to stop back then, and his mom didn't do anything to stop abusive behavior back then, why on earth do you think they'd do anything now?

I'm not trying to take away from the rest of what's going on, but this jumped out as a potential red flag that hadn't yet been addressed.
 
Ummm...whuck? Am I misreading this? Or is the father who was physically and emotionally abusive to his own son now one of the people helping watch your child? Hopefully there is a piece I'm missing, but if his dad didn't recognize the abusive behaviors as something to stop back then, and his mom didn't do anything to stop abusive behavior back then, why on earth do you think they'd do anything now?

Sorry, should have clarified. Abusive father is no longer in the picture. "His parents" are Five's mother and stepfather.
 
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Perhaps you missed the part where I DID say I WANTED HIM TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS KID.

No I didn't miss that statement. However the following statements are contradictory to each other:

- I want him to have as little influence as possible on our kid. I don’t want our kid learning these behaviors from him.
- I do want him to have a relationship with our kid. I think that would be good for him.

I would think "I do want him to have a relationship with our kid, but I don't want him to learn x,y,z behavior from him" avoids the implications and conclusions people will draw from your first statement. First impressions are a BIG deal, so when you start with heavy negative statements, it overshadows everything else.

But I'm sure his lawyer is going to paint it like I'm evil and I'm trying to steal him, and honestly I don't know if I can handle that.

That's his job, do not take anything the lawyer says personally.

The other reason I am concerned about him being around my kid is that his father was physically and emotionally abusive to him as a child (something no one in his family will admit but the things they have described are abusive). Abuse tends to perpetuate itself through generations.

This didn't bother you before you had a kid? OK, likely it didn't even occur to you until you had a kid to protect, but projecting "possible" negative outcomes as reasons to limit his involvement in your kids life is what will get you painted as an "evil child stealer". It is also keeping you in a state of fear, which is unhealthy for you and will not be in the best interest of your child. Instead ask for mandated counceling and parenting classes for both of you, a toddler is capable of driving any parent to the brink of madness. However, there are no guarantees, people who were NEVER abused as kids have been know to resort to abuse and vice versa.

You obviously see some good qualities in you kids father or you wouldn't have stated that you still love him. Having your kid see you be strong against obvious attempt at manipulation is also invaluable. Do a search on "non-violent communication" there is some extremely helpful ways to change how you communicate, that can more effectively get your point across without them seeing and attack and immediately putting up defenses.

Yes, my brother's situation is different. His ex is doing everything in her power to "limit his influence", including lying and trying to manipulate the court.
 
This didn't bother you before you had a kid?

Before I had a kid I was very poor at recognizing what was abuse and what was not. His family acted like it was normal. While I was pregnant I started doing a lot of research on how to be a good parent, and I learned a lot more about what abusive behavior looks like.

Also, having a kid multiplied my self-confidence by like a million. I was full of self-doubt before. I still struggle with self-doubt sometimes, as you can probably tell, but at least I know it's an issue.

Instead ask for mandated counceling and parenting classes for both of you

I was actually thinking about this last night. Asking for counseling seems like a good way to reconcile the two contradictory statements you and GG noticed.

You obviously see some good qualities in you kids father or you wouldn't have stated that you still love him.

Yes. There are good qualities in everyone. Even people who are physically abusive can have good qualities. But they still hurt people.

I guess to be more clear - I would like BabySquirrel to be influenced by Five's good qualities, but I'm worried about him being psychologically harmed by his not-so-good qualities.

It is also keeping you in a state of fear, which is unhealthy for you and will not be in the best interest of your child.

This I am well aware of. I just have a hard time figuring out what to do other than a) being under the influence of fear or b) just trusting that everything will work out on its own without me doing ANYTHING at all.

That's why I asked for advice ... I need people to look at this objectively, because I have a hard time doing so.
 
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