Adapting to change

Kernow

New member
I'm feeling a bit confused today because I am trying to adapt to new ideas, no doubt I will sort things out in my head in due course, but I would be interested in your thoughts (please don't be too hard on me, the last few years have been quite a steep learning curve).

My husband is poly, that's just the way he is and now that I understand more about it I have no problem with it; he is who he is. He and I have been together for ten years, his other partner C has been in his life for over four years. When I found out about and accepted the poly, I expected that it wouldn't involve me much, in my head it was just a case of sharing him. It didn't work out like that, C and I quickly became very close fiends. C is bisexual but I am straight or at least I thought I was. In time it just evolved that the three of us were involved, we spend time all together and we see each other individually. The physical side of things is important but it is not the most important part of the relationship. We have continued happily like this for almost 4 years.

In the past my husband has had occasional 'dates' as well which I am okay about as long as he is honest about it. C is less comfortable about this sort of thing, but she has agreed to it once or twice. My husband and C are into bdsm but I'm not, except in a very minor way. Today he told me that he wants to play with an acquaintance on a one off or very occasional basis. I have met her briefly once or twice and after asking him a couple of questions I am okay about it. I made it clear that C has to know and agree too, I am not willing to hide anything from her. He understands that, but what he said next left me totally shocked; he wants me to go and watch! My first reaction was to say no, that it is outside my comfort zone and not something I want or need to be part of. He accepts that it is my decision (he has never pushed me into anything) but he asked me to think it over for a few days.

I guess a little bit of me is worried about upsetting the balance of what we have for something relatively unimportant, but that is not a big worry. C and I decided long ago that our friendship/relationship would continue even if things end with my husband and C. Each of us is free to pursue other interests if we want to so I'm certainly not going to stand in the way of that. In a way it is quite nice that he wanted to include me and it wouldn't be such a big deal to do what he wanted, but my instinct is still to say no. I think my real objection is that I don't want to take responsibility for this other person, and if he wants this it is up to him to negotiate it with C. I don't want the responsibility of being the one who everyone depends on. I'm not sure if that makes any sense. I think the best thing I can do is park it at the back of my mind for a few days and give myself time to think it through.
 
I'm sorry you struggle. :(

Here's what stands out to me from my POV.

PROBLEM

  • he wants me to go and watch him have a BDSM scene with his acquaintance.
  • he asked me to think it over a few days and answer
  • he's willing to accept my decision.

MY WANTS
  • My first reaction was to say no, that it is outside my comfort zone and not something I want or need to be part of.
  • my real objection is that I don't want to take (emotional?) responsibility for this other person and if he wants this it is up to him to negotiate it with C.
  • I don't want the responsibility of being the one who everyone depends on (emotionally).
  • (Unspoken -- I didn't expect to get close/involved with C, and then I did. I don't expect or want to get close with his play person so I rather not get involved there at all.)

I'm guessing you mean emotional responsibility there? I'm totally guessing the last bullet point. I could guess wrong.

But basically I'm hearing "NO."

You could tell him you don't want to attend his scene with the person, and that you expect him to also ask C about her feelings on it. Remind him you made it clear that C has to know and agree too, you are not willing to hide anything from her.

Seems straightforward enough. What is making it hard for you to tell him "no?" :confused:

Galagirl
 
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Thank you for summing that up so well.

The difficulty is that I am so pleased that he has done this the right way round in terms of expressing a need and telling me clearly what he wants that I really don't want to just say no.

I don't dislike the person, she seems quite nice but I know that she has some problems and while I feel for her I don't want to take responsibility for her vulnerability. My head knows that she is old enough and wise enough to make her own decisions but I can also see her vulnerability. It has taken me a while to become strong enough to express my own needs and I still 'wobble' a bit when I feel as if I am putting my own needs or wants before those of the people I love. Sorry, that last bit probably doesn't make sense.
 
The difficulty is that I am so pleased that he has done this the right way round in terms of expressing a need and telling me clearly what he wants that I really don't want to just say no.

Is it possible for you to say something like --

"I am really pleased you have asked me up front like this. I'm pleased that you clearly expressed you wanting me to come along to watch, were willing to give me time to think it over, and were prepared to accept my decision. That part was AWESOME!

I have to say "no" because it really isn't my cup of tea though. But keep asking me like this! I love it!"

:confused:

If you are a person raised to put other people's needs/wants ahead of yours it can be hard to learn the difference between "selfish" and "self full." Other topic, but perhaps reading this post helps you with the (selfish -- self-full -- selfless) thing.

I think you could meet your OWN need for (I need to feel emotionally safe) first, and then whatever else you do for others after that can be a gift. Rather than a chore or oblgiation or worse -- meeting other people's stuff before yours and running your own self dry.

"Self-full" to me is meeting your own needs and the needs of others in a balanced way. Put your own oxygen mask on first -- after that help whoever else. This is not being selfish. This is necessary! If it were an actual plane emergency, you can help a lot more others having put your own mask on first than trying to help and kicking the bucket because you ran out of air from not attending to your own need to breathe.

It's ok to "wobble" -- but you are not doing anything horrible in trying to meet your own need (to feel safe) above his want (come watch me do a scene.)

Wants are not needs. If his need is to feel close and connected to you, it can come about doing something other than you watching him do a scene. To be close in that form is a WANT to me. The NEED can be met doing something else to me -- go bowling, have dinner out, catch movie -- whatever thing you BOTH like doing.

Galagirl
 
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Why are you "shocked" he wants you to watch him do kink with new girl? You say he and C are more into BDSM than you are. Have you watched them do kink? Would he ask C to watch him do new girl if you don't want to? I mean, C is more into that scene, she seems like the one to ask.

I am not a voyeur or an exhibitionist so I don't get this "watching" thing at all.

If C struggles with jealousy, seems to me the main problem is getting her OK with hubby being intimate with others, period, not his random feeling of increasing hotness with new girl by having his wife (who isn't very kinky at all) watch them do stuff!
 
GalaGirl thank you so much, your thoughts on this have been a great help. I will be able to express my feelings much more clearly now.

Magdlyn, thank you, your very straightforward logical questions have made me think more clearly. My response to the questions that you raised took a bit of thinking about. I'm shocked (probably surprised is more accurate than shocked) because it is unusual for him to articulate his 'wants' so clearly without prompting. I feel uncomfortable because it is a bit of a jolt to our security (but that is not necessarily a bad thing).

The question about C watching instead of me is perfectly reasonable. She wouldn't want to, I know that even before the issue has been raised with her. She is much more prone to feel hurt or jealous than I am but if he explains what he wants and why tactfully she will probably agree to it. C has a disability and because of that the possibility of her watching (or participating) isn't very realistic even if she wanted to. Yes I have watched and participated in kink stuff with my husband and C and I like it. The difference is that I am emotionally involved with both of them, I have no interest in this new person and I have no desire to participate in or watch something which I have no emotional investment in. It wouldn't be such a big deal to watch if it really matters to him, it just wouldn't tick any boxes for me. Like you I don't really get the watching thing.

Assuming that C agrees to it happening. I think I will talk the issue over with her before giving a final answer.
 
e understands that, but what he said next left me totally shocked; he wants me to go and watch! My first reaction was to say no, that it is outside my comfort zone and not something I want or need to be part of.

I met Gralson through the kink scene. We used to go to BDSM parties. A few times, I watched him play with other people, but I never got excited about it. At first I felt like a "bad poly" because I wasn't feeling all awesome about him having fun with other people. Not that I'd call it jealousy or even envy. It was mostly just boring, like being the kid with the cast at a birthday pool-party. I didn't want to be the birthday girl, but I didn't want to be stuck on the deck either.

Has he expressed his desire as a "need" and if so, was it a need to have you specifically watch, or just to be watched by someone? Lots of people have voyeuristic fetishes and I doubt he'd have too much trouble finding a suitable substitute.
 
I just feel like if its not your thing and you don't want to, then don't do it. Seems pretty simple to me

You are right of course, the responses on this thread have helped me to untangle my thoughts about it. I now feel comfortable to explain why my answer would be no, but thinking it through has made me feel much less anxious about saying yes, if it matters that much to him.
 
SchrodingersCat, yes we sometimes go to those sort of parties and events, he likes to watch but he doesn't play in public. I don't really get anything out of watching, and at first I felt awkward at those events because I don't have a 'label' so It was hard to fit in. I'm okay now, people are used to me and I have made my own friends so I feel able to sit and have a chat or go off and do my own thing rather than needing to stay close to C or my husband.

Has he expressed his desire as a "need" and if so, was it a need to have you specifically watch, or just to be watched by someone? Lots of people have voyeuristic fetishes and I doubt he'd have too much trouble finding a suitable substitute.

Thank you for prompting me to consider that question. Yes, I think it does have to be me. It wouldn't cross his mind to ask C because he would worry about her reaction to watching him with someone else (he gets very scared of damaging their relationship). He and I have been through a lot together and he knows that I am fairly resilient so he tends to assume that I will always cope. Having thought about it I think that he does actually want me to watch, but I think me being there is also partly about keeping him safe and reminding the new woman (J) that he is attached (she doesn't need reminding). Maybe there is also something in his head that makes him feel that C will feel better about it if I am there to ensure that he doesn't cross any boundaries. My view is that none of those reasons are valid, if he wants this encounter fair enough but if he doesn't trust her or himself or if he is worried about his relationship with C then he shouldn't get involved. It isn't really my responsibility to meet any of those needs. If he just wants me to watch because it would make him feel good in some way i wouldn't really mind doing it, but I don't think he has thought clearly about my needs/feelings or about how J (the new woman) may feel.
 
My view is that none of those reasons are valid, if he wants this encounter fair enough but if he doesn't trust her or himself or if he is worried about his relationship with C then he shouldn't get involved. It isn't really my responsibility to meet any of those needs.

I couldn't agree more. Basically, if he's insecure about himself in this other relationship, then it's his responsibility to confront that issue. If C is insecure than it's her responsibility to voice her concerns and do her own self-care. If this other woman is such a potential threat, then like you say, maybe he's better off staying away.

For me, as more of an exhibitionist, I don't think it would be much fun being watched by someone who's bored out of their mind. I wouldn't take it personally or think that it means I'm boring, but I would probably get distracted if their energy was completely messing up the scene.
 
I think me being there is also partly about keeping him safe and reminding the new woman (J) that he is attached (she doesn't need reminding).

So you think he wants you around to be his safeword person because he's worried about getting caught up in topspace with a new playmate he's not played with before and you don't want to serve in that capacity? Have you asked him if this is what he is after?

Could he call one of his other playmates to serve in that role? Be his safeword/chaperone person? SHE could bring one of her safeword/playmates that know her well/chaperone type persons too. Or they could agree to play out a few mild scenes in a public play space to build up trust and get to know each other in that context before having a private scene. There's other ways to meet the need for "feel safe enough to scene" without you being there.

Maybe there is also something in his head that makes him feel that C will feel better about it if I am there to ensure that he doesn't cross any boundaries.

You think he thinks he wants you to be playing referee in the (Him + C) relationship?

A polyship is made up of all the other mini relationships within it, but in that tier of it? They can deal with it. If you have asked him and he confirmed this is what he's thinking... you could suggest he ask C herself what she needs to feel good about boundary keeping -- you aren't "the enforcer" or the "security blanket" for either of them.

My view is that none of those reasons are valid, if he wants this encounter fair enough but if he doesn't trust her or himself or if he is worried about his relationship with C then he shouldn't get involved.


I think safety is a good reason, but again that could be met without YOU being the safeword/chaperone person.

It isn't really my responsibility to meet any of those needs.

Yup. You can opt out. Your "willing and able" to participate in things belongs to YOU. And if you find you are not willing you can opt out.

I could guess wrong... but this chunk below sounds like you bargaining with you to give yourself permission to say "No" and feel ok with it by putting the onus on HIM rather than you owning your "No."


  • NO -- because YOU did not show enough consideration for me or playmate. If you had, then I would have come.
  • NO -- I am not willing to come.

That's 2 different kinds of "no."

If he just wants me to watch because it would make him feel good in some way i wouldn't really mind doing it, but I don't think he has thought clearly about my needs/feelings or about how J (the new woman) may feel.

Have you asked him if he wants you to come watch because it makes him feel good in some way? :confused:

What does this chunk mean? He has to demonstrate this first:

he has thought clearly about my needs/feelings or about how J (the new woman) may feel. (in what way? and how would you both know it and measure it?)
and then you will provide this:

I will go watch to help him feel good. That changes your willingness to attend? Or you still are not really willing to go but you go anyway against your willingness?

Could you please be willing to clarify? :confused:

If you ask and he verifies that he's concerned about losing himself to topspace with a new playmate or not picking up her cues well, that's considering how she may feel. Nobody wants to end up in a scene gone wrong. Could you specify what other behavior you want from him that would demonstrate (consideration for how she feels or might feel) to you? Is he aware this is the behavior you want?

In your case, he's asked you, given you time to think about it, and is willing to accept your decision. What other behavior would you like from him that demonstrates (consideration for how you feel or might feel) to you? Is he aware this is the behavior you want?

I could totally guess wrong there. But I'm still hearing "No, I don't want to go. Thanks for asking nicely -- I did like that!" And the rest sounds like you struggling to say "No" and own it.

And preparing yourself for watching possible disappointment in him that you don't want to see/like watching because you don't like disappointing people.

It's ok to let other people digest their own feelings -- you are not responsible for their feelings.

Is that where this is? :confused:

You mentioned elsewhere that your spouse has Asperger. Perhaps in some ways you end up doing some caregiving for him, but caregiving is not careTAKING. Where you take on all his cares and all his problems he gets himself into and you have to solve it.

Galagirl
 
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GalaGirl you are very perceptive and your questions have cut through the confusion to the root of the issue. Thank you.

Yes, he has Aspergers and to some extent it can create issues with communication. That is why I was so pleased when he expressed what he wanted clearly and with a degree of consideration, and that is why a part of me wanted to say yes to his request. It seems harsh to say no when he has tried hard to get it right.

I have asked him the questions that you raised. He is not worried about top space exactly, part of the reason he wants me there is because he is afraid of being too unfeeling and not being able to deal with what happens afterwards (sub drop etc). He is also worried about the new woman (J) being too needy/clingy. If he has picked up on that then I really don't think he should get involved - but of course that is his decision not mine. She is capable of knowing what she is getting into and of looking after herself, and if he wants this he needs to cope with all that it entails (it would just be easier for him to rely on me).

He said that having me there would make it more exciting for him and I think he is being honest with me about that. He thinks I would enjoy it and I can see why he thinks that, I have been a bit reluctant about other things in the past and have got used to them and actively enjoyed them after a while. However I am quite clear about this, it wouldn't hurt me or upset me, but I just don't want it.

So what you were hearing was me arguing with myself, wanting to say no but feeling 'obliged' to say yes (partly because he asked nicely and partly because it is easier to just be there as an 'enabler' than to help him to pick up the pieces afterwards.

I have decided to say no about being there, however if C agrees to it happening I will help him to plan it (if he wants my help) and talk it through with him so that he feels as safe and confident as possible.
 
It seems harsh to say no when he has tried hard to get it right.

Seems "harsh" to WHO? You? Him? :confused:

He is not worried about top space exactly, part of the reason he wants me there is because he is afraid of being too unfeeling and not being able to deal with what happens afterwards (sub drop etc).

So... could get a chaperone/safeword person in there that is not you supplied by him and/or the playmate.

Then BOTH your needs can be met.

  • Your need to not be there
  • His need for safety person present

He is also worried about the new woman (J) being too needy/clingy.

Too needy or cling for WHO? Him? :confused:

If him...

  • Then he could not go there at all.
  • He could go there for one scene and bow out after if it isn't his cup of tea after all/they are not compatible.

Up to him to make his choices.

if he wants this he needs to cope with all that it entails (it would just be easier for him to rely on me).

Yup. Caregiving is HELPING, not DO IT FOR YOU-ing. If you do that it becomes taking on his cares (caretaking.) That's not healthy for YOU. Great for him, maybe, but that's the path to caregiver burn out.

You can help him make out his plan and think things out if he asks for help. Or you can offer if you see him struggling. But do not relieve him of doing all his own thinking -- encourage him to think it out and see how he does first. Don't leap in to solve to rescue.

He said that having me there would make it more exciting for him and I think he is being honest with me about that.

Sure. That's his POV / preference.
I just don't want it.

And that is your limit, so you could state it firmly, and he could respect it.

So what you were hearing was me arguing with myself, wanting to say no but feeling 'obliged' to say yes (partly because he asked nicely and partly because it is easier to just be there as an 'enabler' than to help him to pick up the pieces afterwards.

I do eldercare -- and I know it's not the same as Asperger's. But I go for long term health (MINE and the patient) even if it is a PITA in the moment.

Because I know sometimes it can feel easier to "just get it over with" to gain in the short term, but that is enabling in the long term. Me doing that really doesn't help the patient stay self sufficient as long as possible because I deny the patient opportunity/challenges.

It also dings my own health if I let myself get sucked in past healthy boundaries over and over -- always on "alert" and never chill is very stressy.

There has to be a healthy balance there.

I have decided to say no about being there, however if C agrees to it happening I will help him to plan it (if he wants my help) and talk it through with him so that he feels as safe and confident as possible.

That's reasonable. HELP him, not do it FOR him. He has to want your help, ask you for it, and THEN you help. You just don't swoop in and do it all for him so he doesn't even have to ask.

Hang in there!

Galagirl
 
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Seems "harsh" to WHO? You? Him? :confused:
It makes me feel that I'm being harsh towards him by not agreeing to his request

So... could get a chaperone/safeword person in there that is not you supplied by him and/or the playmate.

Then BOTH your needs can be met.

No, he wouldn't accept another person there (Aspie issues) and he doesn't play in public. But that doesn't make it my problem. If he can't deal with it without my help then he probably shouldn't do it.

Too needy or cling for WHO? Him? :confused

Yes too needy for him (from the little I know I think he is probably right)

If him...

  • Then he could not go there at all.
  • He could go there for one scene and bow out after if it isn't his cup of tea after all/they are not compatible.

Up to him to make his choices.

Yes I agree completely. I think he only wants a one off or very casual thing anyway. I will respect his choice but J comes with 'baggage', previously he has chosen people who were much more clear about wanting a one off/very occasional no strings sort of thing. Anyway I've pointed that out to him so now he has to decide if it is right for him or not. He lacks emotional intelligence sometimes, but he is not stupid so I have to trust him on this.

Yup. Caregiving is HELPING, not DO IT FOR YOU-ing. If you do that it becomes taking on his cares (caretaking.) That's not healthy for YOU. Great for him, maybe, but that's the path to caregiver burn out.

We have been together a long time and it has been a very rough ride at times, but lots of very good bits too. I like things the way they are and I wouldn't change it, but over the years I have understood the importance of looking after myself and my needs because he doesn't always recognise/understand my needs/feelings. I should have probably made it clearer in previous posts that he is very intelligent and very capable, he doesn't need 'care', he just needs help with issues around emotional intelligence/understanding people's feelings and motives.

Thanks for your help and advice.
 
He is also worried about the new woman (J) being too needy/clingy. If he has picked up on that then I really don't think he should get involved - but of course that is his decision not mine.

This is true, but that does not mean you cannot use your influence with him to voice your objection to the matter and encourage him to seek a different, less clingy partner. That doesn't mean you're controlling him or anything, he'll still make his own choice, but sometimes it's the responsibility of loved ones to tell us when we're being careless, if we don't catch it ourselves.

A couple times, Gralson was wanting to get into BDSM playdates. I forget where he put his ads, Kijiji I think, when they still had personals... anyway, he kept getting replies from married women whose husbands weren't, or assumed wouldn't, be interested in Domming them. A couple times he brought me to meet them. I came along, it was just coffee after all. But every time, I spoke very clearly that I thought it was a terrible idea, helping some woman cheat on her husband. There was the whole ethics of cheating of course, and me not wanting any part of that... but also, the last thing I wanted was some big scary husband showing up at my door wanting to punch my husband's face in.
 
This is true, but that does not mean you cannot use your influence with him to voice your objection to the matter and encourage him to seek a different, less clingy partner. That doesn't mean you're controlling him or anything, he'll still make his own choice, but sometimes it's the responsibility of loved ones to tell us when we're being careless, if we don't catch it ourselves.

Yes, I see what you mean. I have voiced my concerns. It sounds odd in the context of bdsm but we have a sort of 'do no harm' agreement. By that I mean not getting involved with people who are vulnerable and not knowingly using/doing emotional harm to people. J is someone that he has been friends with for several years (mostly online). She has other partners, but she is not attached in the sense of being married or in a committed relationship. I think she is vulnerable anyway, but one of her partners has recently died. My first husband died (in very different circumstances) and I know that a close loss like that can leave you vulnerable for for many months or even years afterwards.

I may make one more attempt to advise caution and to point out the possible problems. After that I have to accept that they are both adults and if it is still what he/they both want I will not stand in their way.
 
I wouldn't scene with a Dom who didn't express a good aftercare plan. If he's "too Aspie" to understand how to do that, he needs to do some research and work on that aspect. It's just as important as tying, flogging, or whatever play he does. If part of his research involved finding a mentor/dungeon keeper kind of person, so be it. I think a good Dom is a responsible Dom.
 
I wouldn't scene with a Dom who didn't express a good aftercare plan. If he's "too Aspie" to understand how to do that, he needs to do some research and work on that aspect. It's just as important as tying, flogging, or whatever play he does. If part of his research involved finding a mentor/dungeon keeper kind of person, so be it. I think a good Dom is a responsible Dom.

He understands it all in theory. His 'issue' is not due to lack of knowledge, lack of research or lack of experience. C and I both get sub drop occasionally so he is used to recognising it and he is used to our very different reactions, what bothers him is the very random nature of it. He really isn't as horrible as this makes him sound (he isn't horrible at all, actually he is a very kind man) but it is down to lack of inclination to deal with it or to engage emotionally on these occasions. I will talk to him specifically about this and suggest that if this encounter is going to happen he needs to be very clear with her about aftercare and about how long he intends to stay so that she understands in advance what the arrangements are. She will then have to decide if this is right for her or not.
 
(he isn't horrible at all, actually he is a very kind man) but it is down to lack of inclination to deal with it or to engage emotionally on these occasions.

I think these statements contradict each other. Aftercare is just as important as the actual play. Lack of aftercare can be miserable, even physically dangerous for a sub. If a Dom has a lack of inclination to take responsibility for aftercare, he has no place getting someone into subspace.

Period.


I will talk to him specifically about this and suggest that if this encounter is going to happen he needs to be very clear with her about aftercare and about how long he intends to stay so that she understands in advance what the arrangements are. She will then have to decide if this is right for her or not.

If he just throws a bottle of water at her and leaves, yeah, she might need to have a caring friend on call nearby to wrap her in a blanket, hold her for an hour (or longer if neccessary), get her chocolate, watch a movie, make sure she is coherent, etc. Needing aftercare isn't "clinginess," it is hormonal, emotional, and ideally a time for the Top and submissive to cuddle and come back to reality.

I once made the mistake of doing some D/s play just on the phone with a guy I didn't know very well, and while I was pretty deep into it, he had another ("important") call and left me hanging, shivering, not knowing if he was coming back. And he didn't come back and I just had to handle it on my own. Needless to say, it was a good reminder for me to not play with Dom-asses, and it sure taught me not to meet him for any IRL play!
 
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