Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc.: Merged Threads, General Discussion

This is really beautiful, and close to what I guess. I´d like to know if there is a word for jealousy in all languages.
 
Im thinking that I agree with the OP and also with you dh, though I am not sure that I see how all thoughts and actions are born of one or the other and not possibly a third option at times - pain for instance?

What if the significant other is just plain neglectful and the jealousy is not rooted in one's fear but the painful experience of their very real needs not being met? Could there not be a form of jealousy that is rooted in the pain of longing alone - sans the fear?

Whereas fear can only be experienced in regards to things that have not yet happened, the pain of longing is in the present and therefore distinct from the fear of future events. I think that maybe in this way jealousy can be real.

However, the flip side (as dh implies) is that love should still be the anti-venom on both counts - for with the fulfilling love of the self, God and the Universe, longing should not exist; jealousy (fear or longing) is conquered by love.

We've had some discussion here and other places on getting clarity on the distinction between "jealousy" and "envy" as they are often confused and that confusion can lead to inappropriate understanding and action.

"Jealousy" is indeed a fear based emotion - fear of the unknown, fear of self constructed possibilities. The possible loss of a vision that maybe only WE see.

"Envy" is a least as common. Rooted in greed and selfishness. We have wants. Someone else seems to be more successful at fulfilling their wish list. We're maybe not doing so hot. Can't be our OWN fault - must be someone else's ? And in reality - it may be that we are helping them. So we we grab the self-sacrifice card.

All emotions that conflict with the true spirit of love & giving. Not the kind of things we want or need to embrace in our life - right ?

GS
 
GS-

I think this is a key detail that MANY of us miss (me included until just now on a topic as a matter of fact!)

My question is-would you consider writing a thread on the difference of jealousy and envy (in your eyes) and how one deals with each productively?

I grasp the difference as you identified it. :) Makes perfect sense.
What I'm struggling with mentally right now is that obviously we talk a LOT about how to deal with, control and resolve FEAR based emotions/reactions.

What about a greed/selfcentered emotion/reaction?

;)
 
Envy has 2 "A"s in it !

I was thinking of this before and thanks to the prompting of a very special friend here, I thought I'd try to share my view and approach to the Jealousy/Envy thing.

Jealousy gets talked about a lot and approaches to dealing with it are plentiful. And strangely enough, at least in my mind, jealousy is the more simple of the two to get a grip on. Because it's a fear thing - once the fear is proven unfounded (the tiger was paper!) then it's basically done ! Not that we don't have to remind ourselves of that paper tiger on occasion - or even take a match to it (again) but once understood - always understood.

Envy now.........well that's another whole dragon indeed !

Maybe why we don't talk about it is because we were ALL taught as children how to combat things like greed and selfishness etc. We thought. But it keeps coming back. And I think a lot of us forget how cruel a thing it is and how critical it is to banish it. So we don't talk much about it. Or acknowledge it. And it keeps nipping at our heels.

And maybe we should ! (talk)

I like to think Envy has two 'A's in it :)

A1 - Acceptance
A2 - Action

The first 'A' - Acceptance. I think we let slip from our mind that there's no "equality" in life. Some say no fairness etc. It is what it is. There will always be people who have "more" of something than us and we will have "more" than others. And even this of course is in constant flux. Today it's this way - tomorrow may be entirely different.
Acceptance. It is what it is !
Allowing ourselves to dwell on the inequities in life only uses up mental and emotional resources that could be better used elsewhere (to be addressed in a minute). It introduces conflict and unhappiness over something that sometimes is not even in our control. We are NOT the center of the known universe ! OMG !

So I think the first step to leashing this dragon is that acceptance. When we frame this in the context of relationships and time etc, we have to be realistic. Time seems to be one area where envy surfaces. Most of us aren't masters of all our own time. We're pulled in a lot of directions by various commitments and responsibilities. So it happens that times sync up for some people at some time better than others. Then it may switch around. There's no equality, no balance and though it sucks, you still are stuck with the same choices. Accept that it's the way things go sometimes or drive yourself crazy fighting against the nature of life. Because sometimes it's just dumb luck and there's nothing we could have done differently to change the outcome anyway.
And in the spirit of love & giving, can't we celebrate at least for a moment that someone we care about happens to be coming out on top of all this random craziness ? Do we wish it was us too - hell ya ! But it isn't - yet. Acceptance. Sanity. Compersion ?

Now.............

All that being said, there's still the other 'A' left in the picture.

"Action"

Sometimes, when it appears someone else is the beneficiary of some "more" something - there's a reason. Sometimes that reason is that they've put more effort in to obtain it ! The family next door has a new car, boat and cottage on the lake. But they both work 80 hrs a week at professional positions they spent years in school for, and someone else takes car of their kids, cleans the house etc. They wanted it - they went and made it happen. Envy ? Unjustified and self destructive UNLESS we are willing to put in the same effort and sacrifice.
And then of course - on the other side - well - they just hit the lottery ! No effort required. Dumb luck.
Envy ? Why ? Pointless negative energy. How about we celebrate their luck with them ? Even buy them a gift for good luck ! Which do we think will make us feel better and let us move forward with our own lives better ? What will help make us more loving - and lovable ? Karma anyone ?
Choice !

And I see similar parallels in love & relationships too. At least in how they play out. Sometimes some people have put tremendous effort into themselves. Trying to learn to be a better person. They have become very "lovable". Desirable to be around. Warm and comfortable.
Trying to better be owners & directors of their own time. Made choices that put them in better positions more frequently. More flexibility.

But these are "action" items. Things we put intentional effort into with the expectation of rewards if we pull it off. But sitting back, crying "foul-unfair (envy)", doesn't move us closer to what we want. Only WE can move us closer sometimes. Action.
And yea, sometimes someone flies us there - free ! It happens. The equivalent of the lottery win. It happens !
Well damn ! You lucky bitch/bastard - let me give you a hug ! That's a choice too. I'm a believer in Karma :) And even if I wasn't - it sure makes me feel a lot better.

So it can look like a circle, where we move from acceptance to action and sometimes back around to acceptance. Every day is unique. But if we can be engaged in the process rather than wasting time sitting on the sidelines, the law of averages may work in our favor. All choices.

Thoughts & ramblings............

GS
 
Excellent post GS...things I consider all the time. Reading your post is liking reading bits of my life. Thanks for the perspective
 
jealousy in different poly lifestyles

So, I think we have established that there are different types of Poly relationships from married/long term couples that are involved with other partners in a family or more poly fidelity kind of way, to a more casual swinging/open type of way. There also are relationships whereby the person or persons are all unattached to a primary and have many lovers/partners of varying types and styles.

Are there differences in the level of jealousy between different styles of poly? I mean, I would THINK, that in a situation where there is a primary couple, there would be more jealousy within that couple as opposed to someone who has no primary. Is jealousy lower in this latter group do you think?
 
Perhaps not jealousy, but territoriality. People who are "opening up" their monogamous relationship have up to that point probably thought of one another as "my husband" or "my wife" or "my partner", where someone who has been "open" from the get-go would not have this conditioning to un-do.
 
hmmm well in my limited experience I have to say I really don't (I will say yet) feel jealousy in regards to my primary. In the end we have a long established happy relationship that I can't see any reason for ending. With that security I am comfortable and confident.

However I have felt jealousy over our secondary. That was almost purely due to the fact that she would not...hmmmm...commit (in a non-monogamous way of course)...we never knew whether she was coming or going. This brought up every insecurity I ever had. When we went out, I wondered why she wasn't with me, at home she wasn't touching etc. It never officially ended or started....so I had a lot of jealousy. I hate guessing...

Will I feel jealousy with any new secondary, no idea. I would like to think I wouldn't. But really who knows.
 
I'd say "not necessarily" because jealousy can stem from so many differing causes. In a well-established, longterm primary relationship there can be more trust and better communication and therefore less need for jealousy, for example. Newer relationships that are still experiencing NRE can be more prone to some types of jealousy stemming from insecurity and uncertainty about the stability of the relationship.

On the other hand, someone who is comfortable with not having a primary may be better equipped to handle jealousy when it happens, and have fewer problems with this so it might "look" like they are less jealous overall. I think ultimately jealousy is more of an internal issue and less related to relationship style and structure than it is to how well a person knows themselves and handles stress, uncertainty and fear in their life.

*Edited to clarify that I have actually experienced both situations/poly styles (ie. as part of an established, longterm couple and as a "single" person dating multiple people but not having a primary of my own. :)
 
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I've really only ever been involved in poly from the standpoint of being part of a couple. What I do know though is that compersion comes much easier for me in already established relationships rather than relationships that are newly starting up. I think maybe it comes down to being comfortable with what is already known in contrast to the fear of the unknown.

-Derby
 
I'ma have to go with yes. There has to be different levels of jealousy. Of course, I'm speaking from a couple's standpoint. The whole process of 'opening up' my monogamous marriage was flooded with jealousy. From long-term Monogamy to Polyamory is a drastic change in mindset and I can't imagine a person who is single to experience the same insecurities.
 
Talk with the sister...

... There are a few people in my life that are becoming very supportive about mine and O's blossoming relationship when they were not so before.

One of them is my sister - conservative in her own right.

She called me today, and was talking about guys she is/ had dated, and how she hates the feeling of jealousy she has towards them dating or spending time with someone else (after they broke up or stopped dating - she is not poly). I got the chance to talk to her about jealousy and how it can be looked at as a symptom of another problem, like insecurity.

It was wonderful talking to her about this! I love knowing that the small steps I make in my life can be helpful to those I love! I feel that this new insight might just help her in many aspects of her life.

RS
 
I would THINK, that in a situation where there is a primary couple, there would be more jealousy within that couple as opposed to someone who has no primary. Is jealousy lower in this latter group do you think?

I agree with YGirl, GeminiGirl and Derby...they all made good points. It's a hard question to answer. It seems like if a person is in a "couple" and they are sharing a home, they might tend to be more possessive and prone to jealousy......because the threat of losing their partner might create anxiety since their daily home life would be affected. But as a single person who lives alone, the ending of a relationship wouldn't really affect your home life, therefore you might not be as anxious about it!?!?!?

That seems to be logical....but I don't think it's very valid. Emotions aren't logical and they don't neccessarily follow logic.

I'll just talk about my experiences.
I haven't experienced a lot of jealousy in my life and I don't really know why. Also, none of the people I have been in relationships with have expressed any jealousy that I can remember (except one and he expressed it immediately....we only dated 8 months) So anyway......I just started the poly lifestyle! :eek: Uh Oh...... I guess I better hang on for the ride!!!
 
I think this is an important place to emphasize the distinction between jealousy and envy.

In a committed relationship, you have more to lose, so there's more opportunity to feel jealousy. And because ideally, a person wants their partners to be happy and fulfilled, so they may be more likely to feel compersion rather than envy.

In casual relationships, you're more likely to see your lovers out and about with their other lovers, especially if you all have overlapping social circles, and this can create an opportunity for envy. I suppose there's also an opportunity for jealousy, in that you may be in a casual relationship with someone and you see them growing a stronger relationship with one of their partners, which may "push" you out a little bit, leaving less time for you.

I guess "opportunity" isn't exactly the right term, unless you choose to take ownership for those emotions and conquer them, thus making it an opportunity for growth.
 
I don't have many relationships to extrapolate from personally, but my experience is actually the OPPOSITE of your assumption, redpepper.

When I opened up to poly, I was married and mono for years. My wife was more assertive in finding partners than I was. It was a little awkward at first figuring out how we related to each other and what we related to each other. But that awkwardness wasn't jealousy for me. In fact, I don't really think I have ever been jealous of my wife or one of her partners given the long, committed relationship with her.

However, when I entered a V, I found that I was jealous and envious more frequently. With my wife, I didn't need assurances that I was still important in her life. It was pretty clear where we stood with each other. In the V, there was ranking and deferring that made me unsettled.

I'm pretty sure you won't find hard and fast rules to the types, reasons for, or amounts of jealousy among the different shapes of relationships. I think, like all relationships, it depends entirely on the people in them.
 
In a committed relationship, you have more to lose, so there's more opportunity to feel jealousy. And because ideally, a person wants their partners to be happy and fulfilled, so they may be more likely to feel compersion rather than envy.

I think it's the opposite. When you're in a committed relationship you know where you stand or else to me it's not necessarily a committed relationship so there is less inclination to feel jealous and perhaps more inclination to feel threatened because, as it's been said, you have more to loose if things go awry. In my experience I feel jealous when I don't know where I stand with a partner so newer relationships where there hasn't been as much communication have more of a tendency to evoke jealousy in me.
 
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I'ma have to go with yes. There has to be different levels of jealousy. Of course, I'm speaking from a couple's standpoint. The whole process of 'opening up' my monogamous marriage was flooded with jealousy. From long-term Monogamy to Polyamory is a drastic change in mindset and I can't imagine a person who is single to experience the same insecurities.


I second this.

My wife's girlfriend just admitted that she gets jealous when my wife and I are intimate, not only because that is her girlfriend but also because she has feelings for me too but cant be with me at the moment. but I also see my wife being jealous because Nikki (her girlfriend) and I have a stronger connection then they do because Nikki and I have been friends for a years. I actually knew Nikki before I knew wifey. Now if we were all in a triad then the jealousy would be as strong because no one would be left out. for example Nikki being jealous that my wifey sits on my lap when I get home from work to greet me wouldnt be in issue because she could also do that when I got home as well. So as a Vee i see more jealousy then a triad
 
I second this.

My wife's girlfriend just admitted that she gets jealous when my wife and I are intimate, not only because that is her girlfriend but also because she has feelings for me too but cant be with me at the moment. but I also see my wife being jealous because Nikki (her girlfriend) and I have a stronger connection then they do because Nikki and I have been friends for a years. I actually knew Nikki before I knew wifey. Now if we were all in a triad then the jealousy would be as strong because no one would be left out. for example Nikki being jealous that my wifey sits on my lap when I get home from work to greet me wouldnt be in issue because she could also do that when I got home as well. So as a Vee i see more jealousy then a triad

That's the way a lot of people see it in theory but it doesn't always work that way in reality.

Relationships are not like recipes. You can't just mix a list of ingredients and bake at a certain temperature to get the results you want.
 
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