Wide Awake

Will you tell her more of the situation, do you think? Otherwise it may be hard to reassure her that she's not at fault here. :(

I think we might have to tell her a little bit more to ease her mind. With the little we told her, it made her ask more questions. She wants to know why daddy is mad at Si and not being nice to her any more? (He did not answer.) She asked us if we loved Si. I know Matt wanted to say something that probably would not have been too nice or flattering, but he just said, "God says we have to love everyone."

Apparently, her idea of family includes five of us that are part of the core because we are the people who see her the most and on a daily basis. We found this out when we asked her who she wanted to move with her. Her little brother, Matt, Nanny J, Si, and myself. Even though Si does not live with us, she is part of my daughter's core family, and everyone but Si is moving with her family. She does not understand that and does not like it. One of her questions broke my heart. She looked at me and asked in her innocent, childlike way, "If she loves us, why doesn't she want to come with us? She promised that she was coming." With that, she went to sleep. She thinks Si is now a "promise breaker," and that she is part of the reason why she does not want to move.

We are going to try to talk to her again today. After she went to bed, we were trying to figure out ways to make the explanation and turn of events child-friendly and think of questions that she may ask, so we could have the answers in our minds. She needs time to process this for sure. I know she is disappointed and sad. One way or the other, we will figure something out.
 
So let's say Matt did a total 180, and he and Si made peace. Would she then go to your new home? Truly wanting to understand the dynamic, I understood that all of you agreed to move. Then Si came to you and you made new plans to stay in UK with her, without discussion with Matt.

I am not sure if I understand that correctly.

Also when Si, decided to ignore the children after the major fight wasn't that hurtful. It seems like this is not healthly for a child either.

Perhaps explaining like any parent, would that Si was part of your life but that she is moving on to other things and while she will always be in her heart, she has made the decision not to move. Honestly, I would be more concerned if the Nanny hadn't gone. Matt, you and the Nanny appear to be the solid foundation in your children's life. Si seems to be there for the good but not the bad.

I do have something to compare this to. My sister was very involved with my child on a daily basis and was very intergal to her. My sister did something that betrayed myself, my husband and my child. She tried to break our family unit out of greed to have a child, herself. I had to remove her from our life and it was difficult on my child. However, I do believe this made the three of us closer as a family and brought a view that people aren't perfect even if we love them to my child.

Truthfully, I have few memories of that time period in my life. As fast as life changes my daughter has few memories and that includes some traumatic stuff from that age.
 
So let's say Matt did a total 180, and he and Si made peace. Would she then go to your new home? Truly wanting to understand the dynamic, I understood that all of you agreed to move. Then Si came to you and you made new plans to stay in UK with her, without discussion with Matt.

I am not sure if I understand that correctly.

Also when Si, decided to ignore the children after the major fight wasn't that hurtful. It seems like this is not healthly for a child either.

Perhaps explaining like any parent, would that Si was part of your life but that she is moving on to other things and while she will always be in her heart, she has made the decision not to move. Honestly, I would be more concerned if the Nanny hadn't gone. Matt, you and the Nanny appear to be the solid foundation in your children's life. Si seems to be there for the good but not the bad.

I do have something to compare this to. My sister was very involved with my child on a daily basis and was very intergal to her. My sister did something that betrayed myself, my husband and my child. She tried to break our family unit out of greed to have a child, herself. I had to remove her from our life and it was difficult on my child. However, I do believe this made the three of us closer as a family and brought a view that people aren't perfect even if we love them to my child.

Truthfully, I have few memories of that time period in my life. As fast as life changes my daughter has few memories and that includes some traumatic stuff from that age.

You forget that Si had been told she wasn't welcome at their home or a member of the family when she wasn't speaking to the children. She was probably afraid of what would happen if she did with Matt being so volatile at the time. She was also probably reeling. I know there have been times where my husband has completely shut himself off from me or our son while he dealt with something internally before coming back to the family.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but with Matt threatening a lengthy custody battle, she may have felt it better if she gave him some space. We don't know, since she is not posting here.

FoL - I think Matt needs to fess up to your daughter that he doesn't want Si to live with you guys. He can tell her that his view of family are only people related by blood or marriage and he only wants to live with people who are relatives (except you guys have a Nanny, so that's not really true) or something along those lines.
 
So let's say Matt did a total 180, and he and Si made peace. Would she then go to your new home? Truly wanting to understand the dynamic, I understood that all of you agreed to move. Then Si came to you and you made new plans to stay in UK with her, without discussion with Matt.

I am not sure if I understand that correctly.

Also when Si, decided to ignore the children after the major fight wasn't that hurtful. It seems like this is not healthly for a child either.

Perhaps explaining like any parent, would that Si was part of your life but that she is moving on to other things and while she will always be in her heart, she has made the decision not to move. Honestly, I would be more concerned if the Nanny hadn't gone. Matt, you and the Nanny appear to be the solid foundation in your children's life. Si seems to be there for the good but not the bad.

I do have something to compare this to. My sister was very involved with my child on a daily basis and was very intergal to her. My sister did something that betrayed myself, my husband and my child. She tried to break our family unit out of greed to have a child, herself. I had to remove her from our life and it was difficult on my child. However, I do believe this made the three of us closer as a family and brought a view that people aren't perfect even if we love them to my child.

Truthfully, I have few memories of that time period in my life. As fast as life changes my daughter has few memories and that includes some traumatic stuff from that age.

The plan for almost a year was for her to move, too. Initial hesitation was expressed. I expected that. It is a challenge to move to a new place. I have days like that now, but then I remember that we have a family to take care of, so it puts things back into perspective for me.

We did look into other plans without consulting with Matt which is why trust is missing and why he felt undermined as a parent. I admit that I was selfish in doing that. I did not want to leave her, so I asked him to reconsider without fully disclosing everything at first. That was wrong, and I have sincerely apologised many times over.

Matt is not even willing to do a 10 degree turn. The only reason he is even working with me now is because he sees that our child is hurt. He agreed to talk to Si, but he made it crystal clear that any discussions about our children are off-limits and none of her business. That is about as cooperative as he is willing to be in the efforts to make peace.

That was very hurtful, and Matt has not forgiven her for doing that. That is why he wants her to have no contact at all. He feels like if a child can depend on no one else in the world, mums and dads are supposed to always be there, and he thinks she was not there when they probably needed her.

We actually agreed that it would be traumatic for her to lose our nanny. Nanny J offered to move months back, and I kept her in the loop about wanting to check out nurseries. That was until I realised how I expensive they were, and that it would be more cost effective to hire a nanny. I never would have asked her to move, but she offered once again. I am grateful that she did, though. It saved us from having to search for one, and it enables my daughter to have another familiar and stable person in her life to help her adjust a little better. So yes, it could be said that the three of us are the most solid foundation in my children's lives.

Matt's entire argument is that you cannot choose when to be a parent, and he feels that is what Si does. He believes that she was only there for the good stuff or when it was convenient, but he asked me where was she during everything else? In his eyes, she is not a parent or even a parental figure. I do not expect a 180 or anything else from him. Matt has made it known that he is not stepping back from the line he has drawn.
 
You forget that Si had been told she wasn't welcome at their home or a member of the family when she wasn't speaking to the children. She was probably afraid of what would happen if she did with Matt being so volatile at the time. She was also probably reeling. I know there have been times where my husband has completely shut himself off from me or our son while he dealt with something internally before coming back to the family.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but with Matt threatening a lengthy custody battle, she may have felt it better if she gave him some space. We don't know, since she is not posting here.

FoL - I think Matt needs to fess up to your daughter that he doesn't want Si to live with you guys. He can tell her that his view of family are only people related by blood or marriage and he only wants to live with people who are relatives (except you guys have a Nanny, so that's not really true) or something along those lines.

If I had been told that, I probably would not be running to be around anyone. I empathised with her because I know those words cut deeper than anything. She had been around for 12 years, and being told that she was not a member of the family and banned from our home had to hurt like a bitch.

He talked to our daughter and realised that his behaviour was borderline ridiculous. They made temporary peace, so she could be around them again. Before they made peace, he asked me if there was anything that could like sway his decision? He was unaware that Si had shut them out all that time, and I did not exactly run to present that to him. I opted to keep quiet about that, and he agreed to let her see them again.

Weeks later everything was revealed during a counselling session. How calls went unreturned and how I had to answer questions about where she was and why she was not around, at recitals, etc. He was mad about her hurting my daughter, and from that day forward, he vowed to never let her be around our children again. The next time she was, the first time was a fluke and scheduling conflicts. He had plans with our daughter, the nanny was off, and our son was with me. Our son ended up coming with me to dinner with Si, and we went to her place after. Matt was okay with that. The next day, our daughter was around her. I invited her to lunch with us. That set him off, and we had it out. It was so bad that we were in the same house, and he said maybe five words to me. The only reason he spoke was because he had to go to work. Last week was a bad week.

She has not seen them since the last weekend in April. I am not going against Matt on this again. Working with and not against him is proving to be more effective. He is softening on certain things.

Matt was very volatile, so she was wise to steer clear and give him space. He has calmed down now, but he is still firm in not wanting her around our children. At this point, I am not sure what it will take for him to let go of that. A miracle?

If he tells our daughter that he does not want her to live with us or that she is not part of our family, he better be prepared for whatever comes next. I believe he needs to be honest with her but also be careful with what he says.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sorry I have nothing to offer, I've never been through anything like this.

But my parents began a divorce when I was young, around 11 or so. And with the way things go in my country, it took 10 years to get the divorce settled. And those 10 years were pretty rough on me and my younger brother. Now I'm 27 and I look back at those days and think of what a waste of time, energy, emotions, money, they were. So much anger and lying and shouting in the house during that time. If only Mom and Dad spoke more honestly with each other and without so much ego, things could have been so wonderful now. But instead they each live in their own separate homes feeling lonely...

Sigh...
 
So matt told si to fuck off and get out of your lives, and now you're both saying that she abandoned your children because she didn't stalk and harass you guys in order to get to see them after being told to fuck off and get out of uour lives...by matt?

And si is the one who abandoned the children?

Correct?

If you repeat that ovet and over, do you eventually start to believe it? Like drinking that Kool Aid got all those people into Heaven, right?

Stop me when i'm done.
 
So matt told si to fuck off and get out of your lives, and now you're both saying that she abandoned your children because she didn't stalk and harass you guys in order to get to see them after being told to fuck off and get out of uour lives...by matt?

And si is the one who abandoned the children?

Correct?

If you repeat that ovet and over, do you eventually start to believe it? Like drinking that Kool Aid got all those people into Heaven, right?

Stop me when i'm done.

I do not believe anything. I cannot say what is right or wrong or even what I would do in that situation. I can only be empathetic and try to be neutral. I removed myself from the middle, so I can see it from both sides. If I was in her shoes, would I want to be around someone like that? No. If I was in his shoes and someone had hurt my child, would I be that forgiving and just hand them over a second chance to possibly do it again? No. That is what I did, though.
 
It was my understanding that you didn't cut things off with her. Until after an blew thing off both you and the children. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My opinion stand if she was still your partner she would have spoken to you to at least find out hoe the little one were.
 
It was my understanding that you didn't cut things off with her. Until after an blew thing off both you and the children. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My opinion stand if she was still your partner she would have spoken to you to at least find out hoe the little one were.

Our relationship ended on 30th March. Everything happened 23 days prior, so it was still fresh. The events leading up to the end and her behaviour towards my children were what ultimately made me make the decision to end it. Not returning calls and just making no effort at all for them. I reached out to her every day in some form, and it was ignored.

After our break-up, I understood that she was still upset with him and then me, but there was no excuse while she and I were still together. I expected a call at the very least. Matt left but never stopped talking to them. Our nanny played a huge part in that because he wanted nothing to do with me, but they had it worked out. He only talked to me but once every couple of days on the second week, but he talked to our daughter every day he was away. I know at some point they had been on Skype, too, so he had seen them. Matt was upset enough to not only offer me a divorce but he presented me with a model parenting plan to avoid a long, contentious battle. That was when it hit me that it was not just an empty threat. He was serious. Even with all of that, he did not let his anger towards me disrupt the flow of parenting.

I was pissed off at Si, but I wanted to give her a chance to fix it, so I forgave her. Matt knew she had been distant, but I did not tell him just how distant. I kind of presented like she had been busy with work and caught up in her thoughts. He thought she was being distant because of him, how he had treated her, and what he had said, so he later apologised. I did not tell him about the unreturned calls, missed recitals, ignoring the outings, and all that. That much I kept to myself because I knew he would never let her be around them if I had told him. He was not going to be fair. After talking to our daughter and my reassurance that there was nothing more he needed to know, this was how he ended up issuing a pseudo apology last month. The apology issued was solely for the purpose of allowing Si to continue to have a relationship with our children and nothing else. He apologised for how he handled the situation. These were the only two reasons he went along with it. Once Matt found out the full story in counselling, his forgiveness went out the window.
 
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So if si really did do all these terrible things, just tell your daughter she doesn't care anymore, and move on with your lives.

Without si here to tell her story, i'm not sure what to believe. Every time people seem to sound sympathetic to si, there's a new laundry list of awful things she did or things she failed to do for the kids. First it was after the breakup, then it was before the breakup but after the fight with matt, now it's "si was shitty toward the kids even while we were still in a relationship", next it'll be "si was cold and heartless toward the kids since the day they were born.".

What happened to "my kids have 3 parents who love them"?


Si never loved the kids, she never loved you, she was always this nasty evil ulterior-motive-having homewrecker who spent 12 years trying to undermine your happiness, and it finally backfired on her because matt exposed her game and you were too stubborn to listen to him at first but you finally see it all for what it is? Srsly?
 
So if si really did do all these terrible things, just tell your daughter she doesn't care anymore, and move on with your lives.

Without si here to tell her story, i'm not sure what to believe. Every time people seem to sound sympathetic to si, there's a new laundry list of awful things she did or things she failed to do for the kids. First it was after the breakup, then it was before the breakup but after the fight with matt, now it's "si was shitty toward the kids even while we were still in a relationship", next it'll be "si was cold and heartless toward the kids since the day they were born.".

What happened to "my kids have 3 parents who love them"?


Si never loved the kids, she never loved you, she was always this nasty evil ulterior-motive-having homewrecker who spent 12 years trying to undermine your happiness, and it finally backfired on her because matt exposed her game and you were too stubborn to listen to him at first but you finally see it all for what it is? Srsly?

BG, you are misinterpreting everything I am saying. I am listing possible reasons WHY she did what she did. Reasons that would cause me to do the same. I never said she was a bad person. I said I was pissed off at the way she behaved. I never said I did not understand either. Everyone fucks up from time to time. Calling it like I see it. I do not think she had ulterior motives. I think there were and still are misunderstandings.

There is no laundry list. It was a three week span of no contact. It was not like I did not try to initiate it either. I lied to Matt to re-establish contact, and I paid for that choice. The little bit of trust I had earned went down due to a lie of omission and not disclosing everything in order for him to make a well-informed decision.

If you had a child, can you honestly say that it would not bother you or piss you off a little bit if the third parent had not even tried to contact your child? I said I forgave her for that and was willing to let her make it up to them. Obviously she was not that bad, or she would have never been around my children again. She also would not still be in my life either. My husband and I see things differently. He sees no purpose that she serves now. My argument was and still is, "Well, she has been there since the beginning, and it is going to be problem if you block the relationship." Hello. That is where we are now. And they do still have three parents who love them and one parent who is calling all the shots and doing everything humanly possible to block any type of relationship. That includes all that he has said so far and the absolute refusal to even discuss our children with her because according to him, "It is not her damn business."
 
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I was off today, and I still do not know what to do with myself. For once, there is no house work. I already know what I am cooking for dinner, too. My daughter had a dental check-up and well child exam. She ended up having to get immunisations. She had to have them to, so today was the unlucky day. She is sleeping right now, but she is in the bed with me, so I can keep an eye on her. I love being at home with my children. I am not sure I could do it full-time, but it has been a very fulfilling day.

Matt and Si's meting has been moved up to tonight. There is no way of even guessing which direction it is going to go. Respect is supposed to be number one, but I have my doubts. All it takes is one person saying something, and then, it begins. As long as it does not end like the last time, I might consider it a step up and a slight improvement. He has agreed to sit down with us long enough to try and explain this situation to our daughter. He reminded me before he left this morning that he is not doing this for me or her. He is doing it for our daughter. We were able to agree that it is important that she hears certain things directly from Si. I hope it goes well, but I am sitting on post with a fire extinguisher to extinguish any flames. Our "polyship" went straight to hell and has been hanging there ever sense. It would be nice to find a middle ground, but I am not holding my breath.
 
I gucess what I see isnt what everyone else sees. I am poly. I am doing a separation with my husband due to his family of origin issues and transferrance.

What I see in my dynamic is that I to have some blame when he had problems with my relationship. He has repeatedly said he needs to be heard. He didn't feel heard and he would explode. He is working on some anger management and we are working to be sure he understands I am listening. I also felt my husband was the rock and would never leave me. I didn't work as hard to please him as I did my boyfriend. Foolish me. I had to work through that with him. My boyfriend and I broke up due to being in different places in our lives and him wanting random sex.

In Matt's case from what I see, he experienced years of not being heard in regards to the children. I have followed both threads from the beginning. It has appeared to me and this is just from your writing that you felt sure of Matt, so you did everything you could to please Si. Which included going behind his back in long range plans that all of you had discussed and were in motion. I see that you tried to cover for her, even when you knew he was at his limit. I can see how it makes him feel unimportant and less of a person.

Was Si aware that you weren't telling Matt about ditching the move? It has appeared to me for a long time that you have different standards for them two of them. That you go along with her and manage Matt. Either by omission or your own words batting your eyelashes. Now your angry at him for what your actions brought about. You have both consistently said he did speak out and you ignored or whatever in regards to his feelings.

I think it is easier for him to take his anger out on Si then on you. I know it isn't PC to say in a poly forum. But if he is truly monogomous he probably sees your actions as choosing Si over and over and over again.

I believe he did counsel you to not break up with Si. I truly hope he comes to peace with her, for your childrens sake.
 
Last week, we decided to take a month long hiatus from counselling. This is the first week without it. I can see the positives from not going. We are left to our devices for one thing, and we have to rely upon what we have taken from the previous two months worth of couch time. I am finding that full disclosure and saying precisely what I think and feel are proving to be more effective than slight omissions. I have many old habits to break, a list of lessons to learn, and overall a ways to go. We have scheduled the six initial consultations. Our flight is due to arrive in Mel, Vic. around 7 that Sunday night, so we have consultations set for Sunday and a couple on Monday. The rest of the time will be ours to do as we please. We are not allowing ourselves to slip into that frame of mind that tricks people into thinking, "They got this," like George Lopez. We know that we still need help, and that third [professional] party was more helpful than I cared to admit. It is important for us to continue growing and learning from our mistakes.

Last night, Si came over. Matt and Si were finally face-to-face--outside of a professional capacity--after two months of hostility and volatile behaviour. I was there to mediate, but they handled it well. I am proud of them for conducting themselves in such a classy and grown-up manner. I would imagine that it was hard to face one another. She came over around 7ish. The conversation lasted about three and half hours. She ate dinner with us last night, too. Unscripted moment? Yes. My daughter asked if she could stay. All eyes shifted to Matt, and he said sure. By the end of the night, they had hashed out all of their issues, agreed to seek counselling, and there is a high likelihood of Si moving. I am not sure if she will be moving in with us as previously planned, but she does want to move. We agreed to let everything settle for a few days. Discussions will resume Sunday night, when she comes over for family dinner. The original date was tomorrow, but Matt has plans that he cannot get out of at the last minute. I called her this morning and asked if she minded changing to Sunday. Fortunately, it was no problem.

We have work to do, but I think if we can set aside our differences, remember our children are the priority, figure out how to work with one another like a well oiled machine, and stay on the same page, I am sure it will be easier than the past couple of months.

Yes, LMBL, he was not heard for years, and I have apologised for that. I know I dismissed and sometimes downplayed his concerns all too many times. I can remember him coming to me and even flat out saying what he needed. I dismissed it like he was just imagining things, and he needed to loosen up. That was incredibly wrong of me. I cannot say I did everything to please Si, but I will say that I did get complacent in my marriage. I let my marriage's needs suffer, and it has come back on me ten fold. I did go behind his back and attempt to make other plans outside of the ones that had been in place for a year. At that point, we had already secured new jobs, purchased a home, and the renovations had been going on for months. I see why he was pissed off. Everything was set to go, and my selfishness almost stopped something that was always for the benefit of our family.

I would bat my eyelashes, say things along the lines of, "It would mean the world to me," and argue with him until the point that he would relent and just give up, so I could have my way. He fought with me as long as he had the energy, so it was not like he was rolling over and playing dead. Some would call that passive aggressive. That is not what it was. Matt was exhausted and worn out to the point where he had nothing left to give.

She was aware, and she was part of the plans. This is why he viewed her as a co-conspirator and a huge reason why he felt undermined. She apologised for her part in all of this. Admittedly, I have different standards for the two of them. That became apparent when I insisted that he see a specialist in Parental Alienation. Matt's words and I quote, "I had to be analysed by a dipstick and told that I'm psychologically abusing my kids by refusing to let them see makeshift mummy, and she abandons them for weeks and gets off with a slap on a wrist. That's bullshit, and you know it." I forgave her for that indiscretion and gave him grief for trying to protect our children. Our therapist coined it as me "protecting" and "shielding" Matt from Si's behaviour.

It was easier for him to take his anger out on her. I caught some of it, but it was nothing like what was directed towards her. Instead of fighting with me, he just wanted out. He was willing to continue going on with this fight with her as long as time would allow it.

When he told me not to end my relationship with her, it was not because he cared so much. It was because he knew that he had a plan to get out of it was needed, and she was his "visible replacement," so it was not like I would have been alone. As you stated, he probably did feel like I was choosing her over and over again and did not value him, so he made a way to exit the stage and leave the role open for someone else to fill. That humbled the fuck out of me when he asked me for a divorce. I vowed to right every wrong.
 
FOL I am so glad to see you on a healing path. In my circumstances things between husband and I have been hindered badly by complancey and deceit. In part by him delivering all the deceit over a year's time. I do realize the deceit was his attempt to spare me but it only caused more pain. Stay strong.
 
What does LMBL mean? I couldn't find it in any of my usual sources.

I'm glad Matt and Si are getting some things worked out. I'll keep my fingers crossed for that to continue.
 
What does LMBL mean? I couldn't find it in any of my usual sources.

I'm glad Matt and Si are getting some things worked out. I'll keep my fingers crossed for that to continue.

LivingMyBestLife. I was on my phablet and pulling quotes from the comment was not working in my favour. :)

I hope they do, too.
 
Tonight was date night with my hubby. It has been a really great evening so far, and according to him, it is not over.

We had a romantic dinner at the Hawksmoor Guildhall. (Adding it to the list of places people need to visit when in London town.) I fell in love with the lobster macaroni and cheese. I love good food. :D

After dinner, we went to see The Bodyguard: The Musical, which was outstanding. I always did love the movie. I want to do a review when I get a moment. I will probably do it over the weekend. Stepping into Whitney Houston's shoes is a daunting prospect, but Heather Headley, I believe, did the role justice. After the show, we talked over dessert at this cosy little bakery and headed home for a bit to get our duckies ready for bed and to change for the second half of our evening.

I am enjoying the spontaneity that all of these recent changes have prompted. I feel like we are getting closer. I also feel like life is being breathed back into our marriage and resuscitation efforts are full throttle. I truly missed the light hearted side of our marriage. He is surprising me left and right. We had lunch at this Italian place minutes from our house. It was not what was expected or even on the agenda for the day, but I loved that. Instead of driving, we enjoyed a romantic afternoon stroll. I cannot tell you how nice it was to just hold hands and talk. I missed all these little things, but we are committed to getting them back and doing them better than before.

I am sitting on the island in my closet trying to decide what to wear. I have no idea what is planned. I was given instructions like what the dress code is for where we are going. I am to supposed to be downstairs by 11:45.

Things with Si have been going really well. We talk every day. Our schedules rarely align for lunch dates, but I did get to see her today. She came by before we left for lunch. It was really good to see her. She was in a hugging mood. She even gave Matt a hug. They talked for a few minutes about work related things and the how are you's. It was nice to see them talking to one another like normal, civilised people. They both look more at ease.

I have no idea what the future holds for us relationship wise, but I am glad that we are working on our friendship and co-parenting together again. We have quite a few kinks to work out, but the three of us will get it done.

Where there is a will, there is a way, right? :)

Ry
 
Absolutely. (And thanks for the definition on LMBL, I feel kind of silly that I didn't get that.)

Great to hear that you guys are getting along well, and the improvements with Si are a very pleasant surprise.
 
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