Broken agreement

It is like I was waiting for something to go wrong so that my insecurities would be justified.

That is the scariest thing I've read in a long time. I dated a woman like that for almost 5 years. I still love her - but cannot faathom ever being with her again. Once free of that relationship, I realized how much I had grown to hate her, and how much she had caused me to hate myself. FIX THIS. If not for your current relationship's sake, than for every other person you will ever be with.

There were other things said by you and others that I wanted to quote and comment on. After posting that last bit, I can't even think of them. I cannot express the importance there.

LovingRadiance is correct. You are over-structuring the situation and trying to control it. This relates to the above statement, and is building slow, steady, and incredibly strong resentment in your man, the kind that gets heated slowly over time to a white-hot glow as you constrict and make him feel like he's unworthy for being himself, forged into a blade when you argue with him about things he wishes he'd never agreed to, quenched in ice water when one day you start a real good fight about something he feels justified for, in the face of your long-term unreasonableness, and sharpened to a keen edge capable of splitting the finest hairs when he finds he must resort to that in order to find any breathing room in your structure. And one day there will be an incident, the one that breaks the camel's back, be it big or small. And you will find that that blade is VERY strong, and VERY sharp, and that in the face of everything he will not hesitate to weild it.

Been there, done that. Sorry my post feels as though it attacks you, Redsirenn, but I bet I could step into your relationship and tell you what you're going to say before you say it in any argument the two of you have ever had, and I know what that relationship did to both of us, and you need to prevent that.
 
I also really don't mean to come across negatively, Red, but DAMN girl! You need to fucking check yourself! :eek:

I could rant off for HOURS about exactly what about your posts just flat scared me, the parts that made me shake my head, the parts that resonated with me, and the overall tone that just made me want to slap some sense into you. I have seen relationships that were strong in every other way destroyed by the mindset you have. And I mean DESTROYED. That mindset, whether the girl or the guy has it, *WILL* create resentment, anger, and sometimes (like in HMA's case) flat hatred.

There's a couple of articles I want you to read, if you don't mind the suggestion.

The Theory of Jealousy Management
The Actual Practice of Jealousy Management

Even if the idea of being called "jealous" offends you, READ THESE ARTICLES, and turn a VERY critical eye on yourself. I can pick out, just from your posts, several of the mistakes you've made that are dealt with in these articles.

You posted more about your feelings than his, so I'm only guiding you. But if I knew more about him, rest assured I'd be calling his ass out if he deserved it too.

I would LOVE to hear of your relationship succeeding. But with the way things are going, it won't. Maybe it will succeed for a few years! Just like HMA-- 5 years in, he still was "trying." He got fed up and fast when "something better" came along. EVERYTHING his ex was trying to prevent, she facilitated in her actions. You are doing the same thing.

Read through those articles, and sit your boyfriend down and read the ENTIRE FAQ with him. It's a fucking awesome place to start.

Polyamory FAQ

I wish you the best of luck, and feel free to PM me if you need someone to talk to.
 
I also really don't mean to come across negatively, Red, but DAMN . . .!
Coming across negatively is exactly what you did, Violet.

I get it that you feel very strongly about this, especially given HMA's history, but Redsirenn came here for help, and is trying to be honest and open about some very sensitive issues she's trying to work through. I think deserves she respect and compassion for being brave enough, and strong enough to put it out there in the first place. Attacking her isn't likely to be productive or helpful.

Perhaps redsirenn isn't the only girl here who needs to check herself.
 
For the record, her reaction was certainly augmented by her knowledge of my history. But that had very little to do with it, or rather the part of my history that she was involved with where these issues come into play is an example of her reasoning, not the cause of it. Clear as mud, I'm sure.

To sum it up, there are certain destructive behaviors in relationships that Violet feels very strongly about, and in Red's posts she exhibited just about every one of them. I've been outside talking to her about it. I kinda regret telling her to read this thread, lol.
 
Redsirenn, there's one thing I've been wondering, actually, and it might help shed some light on where you might want to head from here. I went searching back to see if I was missing the answer, but I can't find the answer to one very important question.

Why did you want to explore opening up your relationship with him in the first place?

(Oh yeah, and I highly recommend ANY of Franklin's writings on relationships on his xeromag site for poly people or mono people. He's a good friend of mine. :D)
 
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Coming across negatively is exactly what you did, Violet.

I get it that you feel very strongly about this, especially given HMA's history, but Redsirenn came here for help, and is trying to be honest and open about some very sensitive issues she's trying to work through. I think deserves she respect and compassion for being brave enough, and strong enough to put it out there in the first place. Attacking her isn't likely to be productive or helpful.

Perhaps redsirenn isn't the only girl here who needs to check herself.


I didn't think she came across as "attacking". Negative, maybe, but in a good way. It's a good thing to not sugar-coat this kind of advice. If I had advice to offer, I'd probably do it in a similar fashion, especially if I'd had first-hand experience and was trying to help someone else not make the same mistakes that I made.
 
Okay, wow

Well, I am glad that I got a response from you. And I take everything to heart, with a grain of salt, that is.

I did talk to him the evening I posted that latest response on this forum. He responded kindly. He is not exploring anything with anyone on HIS choice right now, too. We have an agreement, something both of us decided we wanted to build trust in each other. So, it is not one-sided. When he kissed her, he thought about it for a couple of weeks, so that when he talked to me he would know what he wanted more clearly. He is building trust in me, as well, and based on our last conversation we are still on the same page. He used these words: "How can I go outside of this when my home is not organized?"

She is at the beginning of a divorce, and since I have read and agree that other relationships DO affect the relationships already in place, AND having been through one myself, this worries me. Also, there is a child in the picture. The timing seems wrong to both of us.

I am a firm believer that life is not fair, and that NO ONE can place a timeframe on how long they are "supposed" to feel insecure, not ready, whatever. 3 weeks is virtually NO time, especially for two people who do not see each other frequently due to work, etc. I also don't want to spend all my time with him talking to him about these issues, because I need to remember why I am doing it in the first place, that is, ENJOY ourselves when we have time with each other, and not be stressed out all the time. If I am not in the same place he is, at whatever point in the future, fine. I don't want to rush things or do something unhealthy (react to the fear of losing him instead of doing this for myself) just because of that. I don't want to lose him, but at least I know that I will be moving at a pace that is constructive to me, and that will LAST with me into another relationship.

I am completely aware of how destructive these feelings of insecurity are, which is why I bring it up. I recognize it. What I need help with is not recognizing it, but dealing with it. I want to know if anyone has any idea how to do that.

The trip-- this trip is all about confronting my fears and such. The worst that could happen if we stopped to see the other woman is that I will get distracted from the real purpose of this trip. It is NOT about Ouroboros. It is about me and moving past something (lots of things, actually) with him, so that I don't carry so much from my past relationship into this one. This is already a HUGE deal for me, and I really want to focus on one psychotic issue of mine at a time. This is how I deal. And I think it will be very good for us.

I want to do this with him because I want to. That's it. It is not based on fear, on trying to please him, or whatever. I want to do it because I do. Because I know already that I operate emotionally as poly. I have always been, in some way or another. The thing that we are BOTH realizing is that theory and practice are 2 different things. We like doing this together because we learn from each other and support each other,even when we act irrationally.

Does that clear anything up?
 
P.S. Reading these posts, some of them could not be more off. And for the record, I can read into how your past relationships gone wrong have affected your reactions to mine. Now I understand where you are coming from. Thanks for the 'check.'

Also, we never argue. We talk and have excellent communication between each other.

Every relationship is different.

I'm sorry that I don't post all the positives on here more often.
 
I didn't think she came across as "attacking". Negative, maybe, but in a good way. It's a good thing to not sugarcoat this kind of advice. If I had advice to offer, I'd probably do it in a similar fashion, especially if I'd had firsthand experience and was trying to help someone else not make the same mistakes that I made.

Thanks for that, YGirl. I don't mean to come across as attacking, but if I do, I generally don't care. Advice, especially about something like this, shouldn't be sugarcoated. Sometimes realities are harsh. Having been there and done that, both seeing HMA go through it, BEING the one acting that way, and being in a relationship where my partner acted that way, I can't sit by and sugar-bunnies-rainbow my way through it.

Well, I am glad that I got a response from you. And I take everything to heart, with a grain of salt, that is.

I did talk to him the evening I posted that latest response on this forum. He responded kindly. He is not exploring anything with anyone, on HIS choice right now too. We have an agreement, something both of us decided we wanted, to build trust in each other It is not one-sided. When he kissed her, he thought about it for a couple of weeks, so that when he talked to me he would know what he wanted more clearly. He is building trust in me, as well, and based on our last conversation we are still on the same page. He used these words: "How can I go outside of this when my home is not organized?"

She is at the beginning of a divorce, and since I have read and agree that other relationships DO affect the relationships already in place, AND having been through one myself, this worries me. Also, there is a child in the picture. The timing seems wrong to both of us.

I am a firm believer that life is not fair, and that NO ONE can place a timeframe on how long they are "supposed" to feel insecure, not ready, whatever. 3 weeks is virtually NO time, especially for two people who do not see each other frequently due to work, etc. I also don't want to spend all my time with him talking to him about these issues because I need to remember why I am doing it in the first place, that is, to ENJOY ourselves when we have time with each other, and not be stressed out all the time. If I am not in the same place he is, at whatever point in the future, fine. I don't want to rush things or do something unhealthy (react to the fear of losing him, instead of doing this for myself) just because of that. I don't want to lose him, but at least I know that I will be moving at a pace that is constructive to me, and that will LAST with me into another relationship.

I am completely aware of how destructive these feelings of insecurity are. Which is why I bring it up, I recognize it. What I need help with is not recognizing it, but dealing with it. I want to know if anyone had any idea how to do that.

The trip-- this trip is all about confronting my fears and such. The worst that could happen if we stop to see the other woman is that I will get distracted from the real purpose of this trip. It is NOT about Ouroboros, it is about me and moving past something (lots of things, actually) with him so that I don't carry so much from my past relationship into this one. This is already a HUGE deal for me, and I really want to focus on one psychotic issue of mine at a time. This is how I deal, and I think it will be very good for us.

I want to do this with him because I want to. That's it. It is not based on fear, on trying to please him, or whatever. I want to do it because I do. Because I know already that I operate emotionally as poly. I have always been in some way or another. The thing that we are BOTH realizing is that theory and practice are 2 different things. We like doing this together because we learn from each other and support each other, even when we act irrationally.

Does that clear anything up?

Ahh, actually it clears a lot up. It can be hard to get what you mean across to someone, in person, and it's even harder on a forum. What you've brought up is something else I can offer advice on. I've been there too.

If you look back through the posts HMA and I have made, it's pretty clear how uncomfortable I was with how fast our relationship with Anne moved. I went from being happy, secure, and rational, to COMPLETELY depressed, insecure, possessive, and running entirely on emotions. I started reading into things they both did; I started actively monopolizing the time that HMA had with Anne; we had several conversations about whether or not we should continue to pursue the relationship with Anne or not. There were even some thoughts tossed around, mostly by me, about whether I wanted to maintain a relationship with HMA! Our whole world went upside down.

HMA and I never argued, until Anne came around. We were great at communicating, until Anne came around. I never read into things; I was always able to stay calm in the face of strong emotion; I was always able to be tolerant, understanding, and considerate of people's feelings, until Anne came around!

It got bad, and fast. It took several knock-down-drag-out arguments, several "checks" and come-to-Jesus moments for me to pull my head out of my ass. I wound up right where you are-- recognizing what was going on, recognizing my insecurities and emotions for what they were, but being at a loss about to how to deal with them.

I will say the thing that made the greatest difference was getting to know Anne. I mean on a friendship level. The romance came later with us, and IIRC you aren't in a triad. But most of what poly relationships are about, it seems to me, is a SHIT TON of sacrifice. I sacrificed my comfort level to help strengthen their (HMA and Anne's) relationship at first. I sacrificed sleep. I sacrificed time with HMA. It was fucking HARD.

I would say again, read through the Poly FAQ I linked before. There are some AMAZING articles that tell you how to handle your feelings step-by-step. And they say it far better than I ever could. I can honestly say that that FAQ did more for my mindset in a week than MONTHS of "open communication" with my partners and soul-searching ever could have done.

I truly wish you all the best.
 
Well, I am glad that I got a response form you. And I take everything to heart, with a grain of salt, that is.

I did talk to him the evening I posted that latest response on this forum. He responded kindly. He is not exploring anything with anyone on HIS choice right now too. We have an agreement... something both of us decided we wanted to build trust in each other... So, It is not one sided. When he kissed her, he thought about it for a couple of weeks so that when he talked to me he would know what he wanted more clearly. He is building trust in me as well, and based on our last conversation we are still on the same page. He used the words: How can I go outside of this when my home is not organized.

She is at the beginning of a divorce, and since I have read and agree that other relationships DO affect the relationships already in place, AND having been through one myself, this worries me... Also, there is a child in the picture. The timing seems wrong to both of us.

I am a firm believer that life is not fair, and that NO ONE can place a time frame on how long they are "supposed" to feel insecure, not ready, whatever... 3 weeks is virtually NO time, especially for two people who do not see each other frequently due to work, etc. I also don't want to spend all my time with him talking to him about these issues because I need to remember why I am doing it in the first place - that is ENJOY ourselves when we have time with each other, and not be stressed out all the time. If I am not in the same place he is at whatever point in the future, fine. I don't want to rush things or do something unhealthy (react to the fear of losing him instead of doing this for myself) just because of that. I don't want to lose him, but at least I know that I will be moving at a pace that is constructive to me, and that will LAST with me into another relationship.

I am completely aware of how destructive these feelings of insecurity are... Which is why I bring it up... I recognize it. What I need help with is not recognizing it, but dealing with it. I want to know if anyone has any idea how to do that.

The trip - this trip is all about confronting my fears and such. The worst that could happen if we stop to see the OW is that I will get distracted from the real purpose of this trip. It is NOT about Ouroboros. It is about me and moving past something (lots of things, actually) with him so that I don't carry so much from my past relationship into this one. This is already a HUGE deal for me, and I really want to focus on one psychotic issue of mine at a time. This is how I deal. And - I think it will be very good for us.

I want to do this with him because I want to. That's it. It is not based on fear, on trying to please him, or whatever... I want to do it because I do. Because I know already that I operate emotionally as poly... I have always been in some way or another... The thing that we are BOTH realizing is that Theory and practice are 2 different things. We like doing this together because we learn from each other and support each other even when we act irrational.

Does that clear anything up?

To answer the last question first: YES IT DOES! :) THANK YOU!

I know it's a pain when someone new (like me) pops on, wants to participate, and doesn't know what the heck the situation is. It occurred to me JUST now I might have gone to look at the personal summaries and seen if yours was there. I didn't. I apologize. I am ADD. I am working on getting it more functional, but haven't gotten used to checking the personal summaries yet!

Now, on to what you have said:

Her being in the middle of a divorce screeches bad timing to me. (Of course, my whole marriage was built on bad timing, so who am I to talk?) It seems like it would be MUCH better, ESPECIALLY if she has a child. There is even more risk, because if her ex finds out she's doing the poly thing, that could be used against her in court. So it seems like all the way around, the TRULY loving thing to do would be to back off some.

I think your trip is a good idea. I keep thinking "Why can't they both see the friends AND both have dinner with this woman (and possibly child)?" It seems reasonable to me for him to want to "check in," but it also seems VERY IMPORTANT to the possibility of a future for it to be done in a way that PROMOTES the agreement the two of you have made, helps you to face your insecurity (in regards to her) by having a small, safe and controlled setting (dinner at a nice restaurant would be perfect) where small talk was possible, but it's not likely to escalate to a sexually suggestive situation that could be a step too far.

I agree, 3 weeks is SHORT time. But I think what clicked for me is that in any given week, a step should be made that progresses the issue, for any issue, not just insecurity or jealousy. For example, in our communication counseling, each week we address an issue on Friday. Then we talk it over through the weekend. During the week we do our "homework assignment" for working on the issue (like empathetic responses, in our case) and usually on Wednesday the two of us go out and bring up what we KNOW to be a difficult topic and try to use the steps to work through the topic to a resolution. Then on that Friday we go back to the counseling, discuss how it worked (so far, it's been excellent every week), what progress we made, and what the next step is.

In terms of jealousy and insecurity-- are you going to be secure after 3 weeks? Probably not. But I guess my question is, are you actively pursuing it? One thing that can't be done is you can't be more secure with THEIR relationship if you and he avoid it altogether.

But that doesn't mean he needs to sleep with her in your bed! As if!

Maca and I are dealing with HIS insecurities. Right now, he's just starting out (we're in week 3 to be exact!) and the first week after we talked, and I told him I wasn't able to do the mono thing any longer, and was from here on identifying myself as his wife and C's girlfriend, I devoted 90% or more of my time to Maca. I verbally asked C, "Are you doing ok?" and he said, "Yes, Ma'am. He needs you right now." That was the whole of C's and my intimacy.

Week two we all sat on the couch together and talked lightly about the kids, our family life, stuff that wasn't HEATED or HEAVY. One of those days I held C's hand. It fired up Maca's insecurities. C and I reassured him that he was NOT being replaced, that he was special to me, preciously important in our family, etc.

Week 3, the guys go out to dinner and talk SERIOUSLY about the intricacies of the past (it's a disaster), make some peace with past mistakes, work out some terms for now in the situation between the two of them.

Two days later, the three of us go out for drinks, dancing and just had a good time. I kissed C on the cheek and flirted LIGHTLY with him (nothing I wouldn't do, even with my family) and dirty danced with Maca and some girls while C took pics.

Maca felt loved, respected by us both, and more confident.

Slowly but surely, he's facing things and seeing that he's NOT "at risk" of any of the things he feared.

So, at week three, have we "solved it"? Heck no. But we're making wonderful strides. We aren't still at that same spot where it's, "That makes me insecure, so it needs to stop."

Does that make better sense?

Very true about theory/practice!! Very different. We're getting a lot of laughs out of how many things are easier, that we thought would be hard. But of course, some things are harder.

Example in next post!
 
The other night, C was taking our 2 year old daughter to bed. She needed hugs and kisses from Dad and Mom. (She's a total Daddy's girl.) So he knocked on our door. We'd just gotten out of the shower and I was still naked. Maca opened the door, gave Baby a kiss. Baby also wanted one from me. I had sidestepped out of sight when Maca opened the door.

Now I could be a nudist, but no one but Baby and I are like that in this family of 9, so I was respecting that.

Maca USUALLY would have taken Baby and brought her to me, OR if I was in bed under the covers, C would have come over so she could kiss me goodnight. But Maca said, "Your daughter wants a kiss goodnight," and walked to the other side of the room. I was caught off guard, as was C (which we found out later), and I didn't know what he was expecting. I thought "Huh, maybe this is a test he's giving himself."

But I wasn't REALLY comfortable just going out naked to kiss her, with C there. Maybe that sounds dumb, because certainly I'm comfortable being naked with C, and I'm comfortable being naked with Maca, AND I'm comfortable being naked with Baby. But all together? That hasn't EVER happened.

I leaned over, but still tried to keep somewhat hidden by the wall, and actually covered my breasts (very large, quite a chore) with my arms, kissed her and moved back to hiding. Very awkward.

Later Maca told me he felt like he had to let me do that, or something, and he didn't like it. I felt so bad for him, because somehow he was thinking I wanted it that way, or C did. But really, NONE of us did! How silly of us. We're doing so well communicating, but in the heat of the moment we had a hell of a misunderstanding!

Fortunately, it all broke down to none of us were comfortable with changing THAT dynamic in the home, and we aren't going to.

So, I do get what you are saying about how the DOING of poly is a bit different than the theory of it.
 
I would say again, read through the Poly FAQ I linked before. There are some AMAZING articles that tell you how to handle your feelings step-by-step. And they say it far better than I ever could. I can honestly say that that FAQ did more for my mindset in a week than MONTHS of "open communication" with my partners and soul searching ever could have done.

US TOO!!! Very helpful and insightful. One of the great things we found were words to express what we were thinking/feeling/needing/wanting where we lacked them previously. Also it helped us figure out where to start in trying to talk about some of the technicalities of what was going on. Sometimes one of us knew we needed to talk, but how to start the topic we couldn't figure out!
 
hey there.

I looked at those webpages months ago, and just did again. You are right, they do phrase my own thoughts in a way that is clear enough to get across.

Thanks for the help.

RS
 
Those webpages are AMAZINGLY helpful. They helped me to do the same, get my thoughts across clearly. A great resource. Glad they helped. Wishing you all the best for the future!
 
Franklin's trying to get a book published actually. I seriously hope he does because his stuff is so useful and practical. So much moreso than other stuff out there.
 
That is wonderful! I know they sure helped us with putting our thoughts clearer too!
It's so nice when resources WORK! :)
 
I am a firm believer that life is not fair, and that NO ONE can place a time frame on how long they are "supposed" to feel insecure, not ready, whatever... 3 weeks is virtually NO time, especially for two people who do not see each other frequently due to work, etc.

I agree that 3 weeks is perhaps a short time to expect to "get over" emotions. Especially when they are around something that cannot change. You can't change that Ouroboros broke his agreement with you, so those emotions may linger.

I do think that at a certain point it is worth addressing why you are holding onto those emotions, however, or why anyone holds onto emotions. Sometimes they get stuck there, and just pushed aside, instead of dealt with. They get sucked up, swept under the carpet and all but forgotten, until another situation comes up whereby they are dredged up again and have more power because they are added to the new situation. (Really I'm just saying this as an overall observation, rather than directly about your posts.)

I wonder if it wouldn't be in your best interest to look head-on at this woman and take the bull by the horns and just go there on your trip. I know it's about you and your "baggage" left in Seattle, and about gaining trust between the two of you, but there is nothing that says trust-building and getting rid of baggage more than dealing with everything all at once and seeing once and for all what your relationship is made of.

I get this overall feeling that your relationship is built on sand, and is only the illusion of something solid. I sense some shaky fear in your posts and wonder if you need to challenge yourself and him bit more, rather than taking these tiny steps towards the prospect of a future.
 
I also really don't mean to come across negatively, Red, but DAMN girl! You need to fucking check yourself! :eek:

I could rant off for HOURS about exactly what about your posts just flat scared me, the parts that made me shake my head, the parts that resonated with me, and the overall tone that just made me want to slap some sense into you. I have seen relationships that were strong in every other way destroyed by the mindset you have. And I mean DESTROYED. That mindset, whether the girl or the guy has it, *WILL* create resentment, anger, and sometimes (like in HMA's case) flat hatred.

There's a couple of articles I want you to read. If you don't mind the suggestion.

The Theory of Jealousy Management
The Actual Practice of Jealousy Management

Even if the idea of being called "jealous" offends you, READ THESE ARTICLES. And turn a VERY critical eye on yourself. I can pick out, just from your posts, several of the mistakes you've made that are dealt with in these articles.

You posted more about your feelings than his, so I'm only guiding you - but if I knew more about him, rest assured I'd be calling his ass out if he deserved it too.

I would LOVE to hear of your relationship succeeding. But with the way things are going, it won't. Maybe it will succeed for a few years! Just like HMA - 5 years in, he still was "trying". He got fed up and fast when "something better" came along. EVERYTHING his ex was trying to prevent, she facilitated in her actions. You are doing the same thing.

Read through those articles, and sit your boyfriend down and read the ENTIRE FAQ with him. It's a fucking awesome place to start.

Polyamory FAQ

I wish you the best of luck, and feel free to PM me if you need someone to talk to.

I dunno, saying "in my opinion," or, "maybe you should," "I suggest," "perhaps you are doing this," or "I have found this to be helpful," a few times, and I wouldn't find this offensive either.

I love the passion. I just wish there were less self-righteousness and more non-violent communication in it.

Go, Violet. :D You're a woman after my own heart. I can see we are made of similar cloth and "perhaps" (LOL) have similar communication styles to work on sometimes.
 
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