Need help please!

Sneacail I'm really hurt by you calling me incredibly disrespectful. You don't know me.

Sorry your hurt, I was trying to point out that your line of thinking was not helpful and as I see it the COMMENT was disrespectful (maybe to both of you not just your girlfriend). You are struggling with the concept of poly and it's not fair to either of you to assume the worst.
 
But she INSISTS on talking in person. I don't see what talking in person covers that cannot be done by phone. So be on guard for her throwing herself emotionally or sexually at you. It sounds horrible -- but let's keep it real.

GG - as always, I agree with much of the excellent advise that you have given.

However, I just wanted to point out, as an aside to the rest of the conversation, that some people, myself included, are not at all adept at holding a significant conversation by telephone. Social psychology suggests that up to 2/3rd of communication takes place through non-verbal (usually visual) communication. Apparently many people are able to adjust for this when communicating by a strictly verbal medium - I am not (I think this is because I am a very visual person).

Personally, I can pretty much only have only "information delivery" type of conversations on the telephone - "Leaving the office." "Do we need milk?" etc. (which I mainly use txting for now as I HATE talking on the phone). Anything that involves any kind of emotion or nuanced understanding...nope. I can barely understand what people are trying to say, constantly misinterpret intention, and often feel like I am not getting my point across because I can't see all of those "body language" cues that tell me that someone is hearing what I am saying and let me know how they are feeling about the words that THEY are saying.

If I am not able to talk to someone face-to-face I find writing to be a MUCH better substitute than a phone conversation...IF the other person is adept at communicating via the written word as well.

I am not saying that Panda should not be on guard against the types of manipulation that can happen when someone is physically present - just that not all of us are as capable of handling important conversations without being able to SEE the person we are talking to. (MrS teases me all of the time because I "talk with my hands" even when on the phone, when we are on the phone he can envision just what hand motions I am using to make my point, maybe this is why he is one of the only few people I can actually talk to on the phone- perhaps I should learn to Skype?)

Jane("Non-verbal Communicator")Q

PS. Dude is pretty much the opposite of me. He can ONLY hear the words that are said and can't interpret tone or body language AT ALL. He can't tell when he is making someone bored or uncomfortable or tell what effect his words are having on another person (which is really uncomfortable for me to watch in public settings)- I think that he has some degree of Asperger's. I have had to learn to adjust my communication style to meet his needs, someday I am tempted to try to teach him how to hear what people aren't saying (I'm told that this is a skill that can actually be learned/developed).
 
So I've decided that I will not have any sexual intimacy with my girlfriend if we still have lifestyle incompatibility. Sex is special to me. I've waited this long for the right girl, and if my GF is not the one then I will continue to wait. I can love her without sex. I have so far.

She says she's a very sexual person and that's why she wants to be poly. To me it seems she just wants a lot of experimental sex. She's had sex with quite a few people already, even just casually with no relationship, and seems to look at sex as a pastime whereas I look at it as a special thing to share only with a girl I want a future with.

I will not be a sex toy. If I wanted to I could have had sex with many girls. I've had lots of girls (and guys) hitting on me since I was 14 or so. But I always said no. I think I belong in a different era...

She can't understand why I can only be with one person. I can't understand why she needs open relationships. She says she and her GF have never had a problem with each of them having romantic or sexual relationships with multiple people. She says it means they're secure in their relationship to know that it's solid. I say that just makes me another sex toy with money...

Panda,

I think you are on the right track for yourself. You know yourself and what you want. But I have a caution for you. Be careful how you talk about your perceptions of your girlfriend's sexuality, open relationships, and casual sex.

How to say this gently? Other than a lack of communication and perhaps some cluelessness (both of which you share in), your girlfriend has done nothing wrong. You have done nothing wrong either. It seems like the two of you are fundamentally incompatible. Again no one's fault.

You don't get casual sex or experimenting with sex. It clearly squicks you out. The idea of it makes you feel devalued- just a sex toy. And you know what dude? It's not for you and it is great that you accept and know this about yourself.

And here is the point. Because it's wrong for you does not make it wrong. Because it squicks you out does not make open relationships or casual sex or learning about what you like sexually by experimenting icky for others.

When you talk with your girlfriend frame it on what you want and need. It is always ok to state 'This is what I need from a relationship.', 'This (fill in blank) is wrong for me.' You don't have to understand or even approve but talk about your differences in ways that shame no one.
 
First of all, you're a good guy. I have to tell you that because entirely too many guys your age get bitter and sad over things like this and turn into rotten bastards. What you are, right now, is a good guy with standards and you're not willing to compromise them. That is fine. Don't compromise them. Don't doubt who you are. And don't let your experiences turn you bitter and sad. Someday, a very nice person will thank you for growing through your pain.

I'm sure your girlfriend is a good person, too. I echo the sentiment that she may not be right for you, but that doesn't make her bad. I question the ethics of keeping other partners a secret from you, but then I remember being nineteen and having no words for the vague poly longings I had. If she has the words, well, she's one-up on me but still nineteen. Society still treats nineteen like an adolescent; as a result, young adults up to about the age of twenty-two have been merged back into that teenage territory.

So I did some stupid shit. One thing I did not do, however, was insist upon staying with someone who expressed fundamental incompatibilities with me. I think that's a talk you two have to have, now, not down any line.

I don't think she is a gold-digger, either. I think she's letting you pay for nice things, yes, and it's awfully nice to experience those. I also think that if you two find a way to make this work, she should learn how to love things that don't cost money. That's not a poly thing. That's a living-within-one's-means thing. That's an adult thing. There is [cough] a significant income gap between myself and CdM, and we did have The Money Talk early. I am a cheap date. Literally. :) I am happy just cooking with him, or doing an inexpensive night out. Do I also love it when he shops with me? Sure -- but on special occasions, like birthdays. And I love to shop for him as well as being shopped for. It's just as blissful having little adventures as big ones.

Mind you, I learned the value of a dollar the hard way: by spending a few too many!

I wish you the best of luck. Do feel free to contact me in PM or here, and I keep a blog thread.
 
However, I just wanted to point out, as an aside to the rest of the conversation, that some people, myself included, are not at all adept at holding a significant conversation by telephone.

Agreed. But I meant talking in person at his house. There's other places to go other than come for the weekend to spend time in his home with his mom picking her up when he's already said he's not cool with that. She insisted. That's not nice. Feels kinda pushy.

Well for this it is done, she's already coming.

But for the OP --next time remember there's other places you can take it. It is easy to feel cornered in conversation. It is totally ok to say "Um... I'm not keen on that idea. But I can't think of another. Do YOU have a second choice option?" if you feel stuck.

More ideas --

Could talk on phone only.
Could Skype.
Could ask for time out to think --- will get back to you on that.
Could meet for a date at bookstore or something midpoint between their homes in neutral turf.

But not just acquiesce when she insists to spend weekend at his place when things are clearly weird between them. It is hard enough to maintain boundaries when things are weird than to get one into "heat of the moment" things or be putting out his whole family.

GG
 
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You guys are pretty awesome

I'm back.

There has been a lot for me to think about. I'm a thinker. Sometimes an over-thinker. I try to anticipate situations before they happen. Not a good thing when it comes to relationships.

This is my business brain. Business brain and anticipating all possible outcomes is a good thing at work, not such a good thing in relationships.

I'm learning.

You guys are helping me. Thank you.

In order to learn I believe that a person should be open to listening to different opinions. If one sticks with only what they are comfortable or familiar with one can not grow and learn.

This does not mean that one needs to agree with everything, but keeping an open mind is important. Ignorance is not bliss.

These are my philosophies.

I'm going to talk to my GF and tell her that I feel that we need to establish where we are right now, what each of us wants from this relationship and what our expectations are for now and in the near future. Also we need to discuss what happens when her girlfriend moves here.

She, let's call her Cat, since there are two "she"'s involved, Cat needs to face things and not just tell me that we'll deal with her relationship with her GF, who we'll call Kim, when Kim gets here. It is easier for Cat to just ignore the situation, but will cause me too much grief to have to be wondering what will happen if Kim shows up here in a couple of months. I feel Cat needs to be open and honest with me about this and also her feelings about taking on other relationships. If she's hiding other relationships, then from my limited understanding of poly relationships this would be cheating.

This will not be an easy conversation. But it needs to happen. I like analogies, so if she's reluctant to talk about it, as she has been every time I've tried to bring it up, I'll liken it to having a 3rd degree burn. In order for the burn to heal the old damaged skin needs to be removed. It may hurt, there may be agony, but after the old damaged skin is removed then the new skin can grow. That's how healing works. Sometimes it's painful at first, but the pain is necessary for the healing to start.

Healing? Yes, healing. When I found out Cat was poly it ws on twitter! She admits she hadn't told me about being poly, only about being pan. BIG omission. Now we need to peel away all the layers and get down to the fresh skin. I need to know what her expectations are and she needs to know mine.

Before this week I thought I was in a mono relationship with a mono girl. She knew she was a poly girl and knew I was a mono guy. I think some guys would have walked away or gotten angry. I'm not angry. I know that she was kind of scared to tell me about being poly. Now she knows I'm not running, hopefully she can feel comfortable being honest with me.

I hope Cat and I can work things out. I'm not going to try and over-think or imagine outcomes until we talk.

I am ready to accept that we may break up. I'm also ready to accept that we may be able to make it work.

It can only work if she's completely honest with me though. I will tell her that. I don't want to find out any more surprises on twitter. Haha.

So I hope I've expressed myself properly this time.

I welcome and wish that you guys would tell me, (gently though, I'm a very sensitive panda) if I'm on the right track or if I'm making more errors.

Thank you for listening and helping me.

Panda.
 
Hey Panda, you aren't alone. Might I suggest a search in the tags for mono/poly? There have been many who have gone before and worked stuff out. It might be helpful to see what they have learned. It might cut down on your learning curve a bit.
 
Oh, and about Cat insisting on coming here, even though I suggested we hold off until we had things all out in the open and could decide if we are meant to even be in a romantic relationship, it's ok with me now. I'm an old soul. I can deal with her being here for the weekend even if we split up. I can still love her as a friend and not have resentments even if we end up just buddies. After all, we've not been intimate, so going from bf / gf to buddies would hurt but would not be as devastating for me as it would had we been intimate.

What I first thought pan sexual was is "loving for the hearts, not the parts" I thought that it meant that pan sexual relationships didn't necessarily have to include sex. I was crossing pansexual with asexual and creating a "pandasexual" thing.

Haha!

My name here is Panda. Don't know if you know much about pandas, but they're a lot like me.

Pandas aren't that sexual. In fact they only mate once a year. (I'm not that bad, I am looking forward to one day having sex, just not yet). And sexuality is secondary to love for me. I don't think I'm a highly sexual person.

Pandas have to have a real special connection with their partner or they won't mate.

Pandas are shy. They spend a lot of time in solitary pursuits.

Pandas are sensitive.

Pandas are gentle.

Pandas are intelligent.

Pandas are loving. A mama panda stays with her baby panda for at least 2 years.

Pandas are cuddly.

Pandas are rare.

*hugs* Panda
 
Hey Panda, you aren't alone. Might I suggest a search in the tags for mono/poly? There have been many who have gone before and worked stuff out. It might be helpful to see what they have learned. It might cut down on your learning curve a bit.

Thank you. I will try and find out how to search tags. I'm not experienced with message boards. Don't even know what tags are! :eek:
 
I found out how to search tags. Thank you Red Pepper.

Right now it is mind boggling. I'm not going to be able to read much before Cat comes here. I'm at work. Reading & writing on my iPad.

You know, the more I read about polyamory the more I think that Cat should also read up on it. From what I read Cat may not even be poly, she does not seem to have the values that I'm seeing in poly relationships because she and Kim don't tell each other about all their partners, they may or may not allude to the fact that they have other partners, mostly they seem to be in a "don't ask don't tell" sort of relationship.

Kim is refusing to accept that Cat and I are really serious. That's why she and Cat call me "the boy toy" when they talk about me.

Cat did not tell Kim about our relationship. I did. A couple of days
ago And Kim brushed me off as just being a stand in until she gets here. I thought that was rude, but realized that Cat is kind of afraid to tell Kim how serious we are. After I told Kim she's been cold to me and avoids talking to me. Even though we've been friends longer than her & Cat. But I never knew she was poly. She had told me she was bi.

These things are red flagging for me. They don't seem like what a true poly relationship is from what I'm reading.

I'm going to direct Cat to this forum so she can read about poly relationships.

Maybe Cat and Kim are just mixed up and don't know what real polyamory is?

I don't know and I won't assume. I'll hope that Cat is open to reading about poly relationships and that we can have an adult discussion about it. She tends to avoid adult discussions. All I can do is try to stay positive and non-judgmental and hope for some understanding to come out of this weekend.

I'm so glad I found this forum.

Thank you all!

Panda
 
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Panda -

You think a lot like I do.

My mother always told me the BEST decisions are made with head and heart together. There is no reason why you cannot think out your relationships. Decisions made ONLY from the heart or ONLY from the head are not so hot.

You are on the right track. HAVE THIS CONVERSATION with her no matter what.

It is ok if she is young, 19, and not sure how to handle being "out" as poly. At the same time, it's different to tell her dating partner that versus just skip it over in a lie of omission. At 18, 19 -- I lacked fancy vocab like "polyamorous" but I knew honesty and I knew enough to TELL my dating partners "I do not want to be exclusive. I don't expect you to be exclusive. Just give me the heads up if one of your others is looking to go Lover so I can make a decision about my sex health. If I check out or am ok being overlappy. Can't hack that? We're better as friends."

It wasn't elegant, but it was real.

So again - I salute you for trying to play like a Jedi here and trying to keep it real. I note she's also skipping on on truths to her OTHER partner Kim. That's so not cool.

Your posts are very self aware, you know what you want and what you are willing to do/compromise on. You don't have time to read more on poly but later you can.


www.morethantwo.com

www.serolynne.com

What you might have time to do is lay out your things in piles. Ask her for hers.

  • My Wants:
  • My Needs:
  • What I'm willing to put into this relationship:
  • My Limits / What I am not willing to put into this relationship:

Then you can see how close a match up it is with the wants, needs, and limits.

And see how close a match up it is with honest truthiness, maturity level, and handling conflict resolution. It's ok to make mistakes and own it, but if this is constantly going to be more than it is worth -- and you are right to be picking up on all those red flags --walk away now before it gets deeper and costlier to your health buckets -- mental health, emotional health, physical health, spiritual health. You don't need drama or a poor return on your investment.
If you want a partner, you want a PARTNER. Not an obligation or a chore.

All relationships have some baggage because all people have something. I'm not a perfect person. I have my own baggage.

But I feel everyone could own their own baggage and not be making extra work on others. And I feel that at the START of a relationship, it's show and tell time. So all can decide if they want to accept their new partner and helping them sort their baggage or not partner at all. I have the right to pick a relationship with baggage of a size I can handle and reject a relationship that is just too dang overloaded for me to deal in.

I'd be walking away on this one already because of the lies of omission -- but I'm me and that's one of my personal things.

You are you. So you make the call. Have the talk and see what is what.

If after the talk you guys decide there's enough still matching to merit giving it another trial run try-- put a time limit on it for the next check in. 3 mos? However long before Kim gets there? Something.

Then reassess how she's been playing with you. She can assess how you have been playing with her. Meeting all the agreements for how to be in right relationship with each other or NOT. Then whether or not you both will renew your options to continue or not.

If it is STILL Muppet Show? Check out. You don't need this.

Everyone deserves a second chance if they are honestly going to try and it was honestly being afraid at 19 to be out as a poly. But there's lots of resources now at fingertips to help -- there is NO excuse for not at least TRYING to keep it honest and keep it real.

Play ball already like a grown up ethical polyamorous person and stop pansy footing around. In or out?

You seem to be trying to play like a grown up ethical monoamorous person -- who is trying to learn about ethical polyamory and learn if you can Open yourself to that option - being mono and loving a poly. All while still keeping it sane and real in your learning process.

So for you -- I salute your personal growth there and how you are processing. That is truly remarkable and you are a gem.

GL!
GG
 
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Hi Panda,

You sound like a very sincere person with good personal boundaries. You sound like you're willing to learn about different ways of doing things, and you already have a pretty good idea of what works for you.


That's a pretty good place to be. It sounds like there are some differences between you and the girl you care about that may make you two incompatible in some ways. It sounds like you already know that might be true, and you plan to talk more about it this weekend.


I'll share with you a few things I've learned over the years. The most important thing you can do for yourself is get to know who you are. It sounds like you're making really good progress with that.


This world is full of people who do different things in different ways. As you live, you will come across people who like you, and like the things you do. You will also come across those who don't like you. It's easy to relate to those who like you.


What about those who don't? They will have a variety of ways of letting you know - a look, a comment, doing something, etc. As long as you are being who you truly are (or really trying to be) with honesty and integrity, and you know you are not trying to hurt someone with your actions, the best way to handle criticism is to be aware of it and let it slide off your back, while always being pleasant to the person criticizing you. Yes, I really did say that. Be nice back to them. Self confidence always wants to be pleasant.


What does it really mean to let criticism slide off you? It means being able understand and acknowledge what the person is saying to you and respect the fact that they wanted to say it, while at the same time knowing their opinion does not make you any different than you were before they spoke.


I hope you have a great weekend. I hope you continue to make the effort to learn who you are and what works for you.
 
Thanks GalaGirl. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm going to follow your advice.

I believe in total honesty and full disclosure. Even if it hurts. I will be truthful with Cat, and I will ask her to be truthful with me.

If she doesn't feel that she can be 100% truthful with me then our relationship is not ready to move forward at this point.

With me it's easy, I have no previous relationships, I have my life plan pretty well mapped out (with room for changes as I grow and learn as a person) and I know who I am.

My baggage is my history of depression (100% in control thanks to medication) and my generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder, being a bit OCD and low self confidence when in social situations.

Her baggage does include abusive relationships, giving herself to people sexually when she really didn't want to, and a fear of being open with her preferences and emotions.

I have a very stable and supportive home life. Cat unfortunately hasn't got this.

So I think I have to take control and let her know that we can't keep going with hidden agendas and partial truths. It never works in the end.

Your advice is brilliant.

I think I'm not going to have any wine for our talk. I need a clear head. Cat can drink if it makes her more able to be open with me.

I've talked things over with my mom. She agrees with this agenda and will be here to step in if needed. ONLY if needed. I asked her to have my back and if she hears me agreeing to things I don't want just to not hurt Cat or if Cat goes into baby talk and won't face the issues then she will step in. She will be upstairs. She can hear us. I want that. Not spying but to be a mediator if we need one.

Mom is familiar with pan sexuality, she identifies as pan. She knows about poly but is mono. She says she doesn't feel mature enough to handle a poly relationship herself because she gets jealous but she understands the dynamics and is supportive of mono and poly. She said maybe when she's older and wiser she might explore poly. Right now she is single. Left her last relationship with a man that lasted 6 years in December. But she says she waited a year too long to end it. So she can see when a relationship is unhealthy or one sided. So she's a good one to help us I think. She's my best friend.

Got to get back to work. Cat will be here in 2 hours. Mom is picking her up. Mom is cool, they'll just talk about girl stuff and do their nails or makeup or something. Mom has a huge wardrobe of clothes that Cat likes, they can dress up when waiting for me. They did that last time tee hee!

WISH ME LUCK!!!

Panda
 
Thanks Snowmelt! More good advice!

You guys are awesome, I'm learning so much.

I feel more confident now.

Nice to have support.

And I'll be more open to criticism. I'm overly sensitive. Not good being a sulky panda haha.

Thanks Snowmelt and everyone!

(almost brave) Panda <3
 
There is criticism and there is critique. There is a difference. Assume positive intent. That makes life a lot less ugh. ;)

Remember too -- Criticisim just tears you down for no constructive reason. Critique is constructive feedback on a situation.

If you say your goal is X, how do I think you are doing?

If your goal was making brownies? Well, I don't think pulling out ingredients for spaghetti was so hot and that shan't work well. Won't help you reach your goal effectively.

For your goals here -- you have it covered. You are doing fine. You are owning your own bag. WTG! :)

Hang in there!

GG
 
Hoping for the best, Panda - you sound like you've got a good plan and path forward. :)
 
I am hoping for the best for you as well. I look forward to hearing the continuation of your story.
 
Panda, you and I have brain things in common. :)

You ARE a brave Panda, and a kind one, and one with good instincts. Let them guide you forward. Also listen to the others, because they're smart about this stuff.

Still wishing you luck.
 
I know I'm late to the party, but Panda, I really feel for you.

One of the big foundations of poly is open and honest communication. You were not given that. We talk over and over again on this and other fora about the importance of making sure that we don't end up hurting those that we care about due to our ambiguous communications. If she suspected that you had no clue about poly, that it was really up to her to tell you about it, answer your questions. Her not doing that gave you an expectations that this was heading for a regular, monogamous relationship - I can't blame you at all for thinking that. The "pansexual" part is about which genders or gender variants a person is interested in - it has no bearing on how *many* folks at a time.

So whether done through innocent assumption on her part, or a deliberate hiding something - who knows? let's give her the benefit of the doubt on that one.

But the fact is that you want an exclusive relationship, a monogamous relationship. This is a "bottom line" for you - it's not negotiable. Not only do you not want to have relationships with multiple people, you need a commitment from your partner that they want the same. She does not, and it appears that poly is a bottom-line for her.

These are utterly incompatible. No amount of talking, or cajoling or persuading is going to change that. In some ways, expecting that it will is disrespectful of each other.

You two need to recognize that a loving relationship isn't going to be possible because of these incompatible bottom-lines. Don't waste the time and energy trying to convince each other - I've been there and all it does it create resentment.

Accept things for what they are. Find out what sort of relationship (more than likely a friendship) you *can* have, rather than trying to push something that isn't going to happen. That way you can stay in each others lives, and maybe accept *each other* for who you each are.

I understand how hard this must be for you, after you had built these expectations of a relationship with this person. But don't compromise your core values for anybody - you are more important than they are, when it comes to your own happiness and what you truly believe in yourself.

Stay you.
 
She started crying and at first I thought "OMG, I've hurt her, now I have to backtrack and say it's ok" but then I remembered what you all said and I just let her cry until she was done. When I didn't respond to her crying she stopped and told me she was sorry.

I agree with GalaGirl, I hadn't been around to read this thread until now but when I saw you say that I was so impressed. Really not that many people have the skill to hear advice and take it and then apply it right away and so well, that is an amazing skill.

I'm sure your weekend has been interesting to say the least, I'm still on page two of the thread, but I wanted to reiterate that it's awesome if you stay true to yourself, and never forget you can take time off to get your head clear if you don't know what clear to yourself is at the moment.
 
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