Greetings from TN

Just my quick 2cents

I'm new here, but if I were you, I would password protect my (your) phone. Either that or delete the texts out of memory after the conversation is finished.
Just a thought to protect yourself. BTW, I do think she is being unreasonable.
 
Perhaps the conversation needs to go to a new level; e.g., "When I talk to you about my concerns, I feel like they get dismissed or excused away. It seems to me like my feelings aren't important." Also, some kind of agreement needs to be made regarding how many nights W spends each week with the other guy, and how many nights she spends each week with you. In addition, some kind of agreement needs to be made as far as a set time you and W will have a date night, be it once a week, once a month, or whatever.

Hopefully some of this will come out in counseling (with a mediator present). Hang in there.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
good evening, TN...
I am new to this site and have just read your complete thread. For the last two years my husband was you. I have had a bf for the last two years, and I can say none of this is easy..my husband was feeling things that you are feeling, and was on dating sites as well.
The one thing I can tell you for sure is the key to all of this is communication. My husband and I talk it out, sometimes until 6am..we both decided on this journey together, however it is not always easy. My bf and husband are friends, good friends now. It took time..and now my husband has entered into a relationship with a woman. AND now this is new to me lol. I am not used to being the one at home alone. I as well am facing new challenges, my bf and I have a 2 hour distance between us, my husband new gf wants more time with him, sometimes when he is sees her I am home alone day or night. As well my bf has a wife (they are in a open marriage). So there will always be some little hiccup, it is how you deal with it that matters. I go to work, go the gym keep busy so I am not feeling insecure..it is hard...I think this site is great, reading everyone posts, feeling like we are not alone...keep your head held high..and keep going..and keep writing..
 
Thanks for the encouragement and the words of wisdom. I am grateful.

Our first counselling session is Tuesday night, and because it's a 30-minute Skype session I want to be well prepared so as to get as much out of it as I can. I figure I'll cover our history leading up to the decision to open our marriage, such as our early swapping, W's affair, our brief foray into formal swinging, then our decision to open. And then I'll get into W's refusal to be intimate with me, and maybe talk about some practical ways to deal with the scheduling, expectations, etc.

Or do you guys think there are some different things we should cover during this first session?
 
I need to ask a very sensitive question. I hope it won't come to this, but I have thought about it. Suppose the counsellor suggests ending the poly relationship until we have worked out our own issues. I know this wouldn't go over well, with W. Her guy would probably agree, though, because he has committed to not doing anything to mess up our family or our relationship, because he himself has been on the bad side of an open marriage, and he knows how much it hurt him.

But suppose that is what the counsellor recommends. I'm trying to decide how I should respond, and how I should react to what would surely be antagonism from W. Any thoughts? Has anyone been in this position before where they decided to step away from poly for a while?
 
Taking a step backwards in a new relationship is much, much harder than taking a step forward. So if the counsellor suggests *ending* the poly relationship for a time, I would tread around that carefully and let W and the counsellor talk it out.

I personally consider the biggest problem to be that W is not at all intimate with you at this time. So that's the issue I personally would try most to emphasize to the counsellor. However, you have to make your own decision what's most important during this first session.

A half-an-hour Skype session isn't long, and I tend to think it will take a number of sessions to make headway. You'll have to cover as much ground as you can per session, plus this first session will be a time to figure out whether you and this counsellor are compatible.

It seems like it would be so much easier to just put the poly relationship on hold for awhile. But sometimes the most obvious path doesn't turn out to be the best path.

Best of luck to you,
Kevin T.
 
We had a long talk about scheduling and how last week she spent 4 nights with guy (every other night) and all were overnights. She assured me that because guy has his teenage son every other week, and it's very difficult to meet during that week he has his son, this coming week they would only meet up at most twice, and probably not overnights. I considered and decided I could live with that compromise.

Saturday was the first time she and guy had gone out of town. They went to that burlesque show in another town. They left at about 4:00pm Saturday and came back Sunday at around 4:00pm, so they were gone 24 hours. I had to care for both girls during that 24 hours by myself, which is kind of tough for me, because they are a handful. I had a few meltdowns, and a few anger episodes which spilled over onto the children and resulted in me yelling at them for simple things like not picking up their toys, not listening to me, etc. So I've got some work to do on that front, and it may just be that I ask her not to do out-of-town or 24 hour blocks with him anymore. Or maybe that's an unreasonable expectation. Maybe we'll talk to the counsellor about that, too.

A positive sign, though, was that when she got back home yesterday she was reading a copy of "Love and Respect", which is a book about working on marriage problems.
 
Last night was one of those nights that start early, end late (2 am), involve much sharing, crying, and soul searching, that was gut-wrenching and painful, and somehow ended on a positive note. Maybe this whole “emotional honesty and communication” thing is the right way after all.

It started badly. I had password protected the discussions with our friend and W’s guy, since she does the same. As soon as W gets home she gets my phone, resets my password somehow, and looks at the messages (all benign, boring stuff). She goes ballistic again:

“I don’t want you hiding these conversations with guy from me. I can’t control what you say and want to know what you’re saying to him.”
“I feel the same way. Yet you flat out refuse to let me read your texts with him.”
“Those are personal! I’m in a relationship with him. “
“But your guy and I agreed we should keep up the ommunications. The reason he met me alone was he felt I’d be more open and honest with him without you there.”
“And I was a nervous wreck over that. “
“Well let’s just open all communications and be totally transparent. There shouldn’t be anything you can say to him you wouldn’t say to your husband of 15 years.”
“I’m NOT showing you those messages!”

And so it went, round and round until we couldn’t talk about it anymore, not having reached a consensus. I feel that either we’re totally open and honest (my preferred solution), or we decide that we’re going allow one another to have private conversations. She wants to control my actions and conversations so badly it's maddening. One of the reasons I'm sensitive about this issue was the fact that she used texting so much during her affair, and took pains to keep them from me.

I’ll cover the rest of the night in a separate post. I don’t want this one to become a novel.
 
The rest of the night was spent lying in bed and talking, crying, listening, and baring our souls. The kind of thing that is HARD for most men, including myself. But I did it because I have been committed to making this relationship work. W said she waffles back and forth between a) doing the “easy” thing and divorcing and not having to deal with the kids and me, just providing financial support, something she’s excellent at (she makes lots of money!), and b) deciding to work with me and get some counseling. I didn’t even get into the argument about how divorce is seldom easy on anyone, especially children, who are often heartbroken. Most divorces are slow, painful processes that make life more difficult for almost everyone. But I digress.

W thinks she is the worst mother ever, and has terrible buyer’s remorse for having the girls. I asked her point blank “If you could have it exactly the way you wanted, how much time would you spend with the girls?” She paused for just a second and replied “None”. Then we both got quiet and cried for a little while.

We talked about why she feels the way she feels, and it was tough getting to the answers. I talked about how I feel her NRE with her guy right now is coloring her judgment, but of course she denies this. Even though I know from all my studying it is true. Then she claims she has, for 15 years, put everyone’s happiness ahead of her own, and she wants to start making her own self happy. I refrained from pointing out all the things she has done for herself in those 15 years, because I knew it would be sheer folly. But I’ll list some of them here, for my own catharsis:

1) Went to grad school for two years while I worked and supported our household.
2) Got bariatric surgery and lost a lot of weight
3) Got a boob job (which turned out fantastic, BTW)
4) Spent us almost into bankruptcy to overcome infertility to bear two children (the same ones she now can hardly spend an hour around without becoming an angry shrew).
5) Moved us to Las Vegas for a year because she likes the excitement of the city
6) Has never agreed to go to my folks for Thanksgiving, because she always insists on going to her folks.
7) Bought a hot tub, a minivan, an expensive bedroom suite, etc.
8) Bailed a guy out of prison by loaning him $12,000, which I doubt we’ll see again, because she thinks this guy is a great guy who just made some mistakes.

You get the picture.

She says she’s terrified of what people will think if she walks away from this marriage. She said she’ll lose most of her friends, most of her money, and maybe even her job. Because she thinks the way the public (and perhaps the court) would view it as her being repeatedly unfaithful, a terrible mother, an angry, belittling wife, and other horrible things. And I think she may be right, actually. If she walked away, I could basically spell out whatever I want in terms of money, assets, and child custody. And I’d probably get everything I ask for.

Then I did a lot of talking about how I’ve often considered giving her what she wants, which she has made apparent to me time and again, which is nothing to do with me and very little time with the girls. I said I could probably make that happen. It would break my heart and heart of the girls, and our parents, and a lot of the people pulling for us. But I would do it if it turned out to be the only way.

But I don’t want that to happen. I want a family. One where the mother and father love and respect each other, live together, and work together in harmony to raise healthy, emotionally mature girls. One where we live out our retirement that we have saved so much for. One where there is emotional and physical intimacy.

She finally got sleepy and ended up saying things like “I can’t be responsible for two kids AND you”, which is not the first time that she basically called me a child. Then finally we’re asleep.

This morning she sends me a SLEW of texts saying she was re-energized by our discussions last night, and she’s decided to try to make things work. She’s going to try therapy and see if we can fix our issues. She says I bared by heart and soul so much she is convinced I can change and has hope for our future. She said she was amazed by my ability to be so candid with her.
Go figure. I’m getting very weary of this roller coaster. I hope the therapy helps, because I may decide the coaster is way too bumpy for me and decide to hop off.
 
It seems clear to me that you and your wife both have some resentments stored up against each other, perhaps justly. It's easier said than done, but I recommend that both of you make a resolution to do some heavy forgiving. She feels she has given up a bunch of stuff over the last 15 years. You disagree (and can back up your reasons), but she has her own feelings and point of view, and that's where the problem lies. For her own peace of mind, she should let go of the bad things in the past. I recommend the same for both of you. It's not worth it to try to "balance the scales." It's more helpful to just forgive, forget, and move forward.

It is good that she is willing to participate in therapy with you. Try to make as much progress as possible during each therapy session, and if the therapist isn't a good match for you, it's okay to search for another therapist.

Re (from Post #27):
"I had a few meltdowns, and a few anger episodes which spilled over onto the children and resulted in me yelling at them for simple things like not picking up their toys, not listening to me, etc. So I've got some work to do on that front, and it may just be that I ask her not to do out-of-town or 24 hour blocks with him anymore. Or maybe that's an unreasonable expectation. Maybe we'll talk to the counsellor about that, too."

Is getting a babysitter an option that could be considered? Something so you both get a break. Certainly it would be a good thing to bring up with the counsellor.

The key thing, here, I think, is that you and your wife need a new mindset where you are working together as a team, rather than squared off at two corners of a ring as if you were boxing opponents. You both have resentments against each other, and many disagreements about those resentments. This makes communication difficult, but communication is still necessary. A husband and wife can grow to be enemies over time without realizing it. It can't be fixed overnight, but at some point you'll want to declare a truce.

It might be helpful to schedule a fixed day of the week when you and your wife will just communicate. Perhaps away from home, while a babysitter looks after the kids. This way your wife's "communication bucket" might be kept full without having to build up to a "2:00 a.m. marathon."

It does seem like you are making some progress, and I expect things to get easier a little at a time. Some new dynamics have entered your relationship, opened the lids on some "sealed cans," and put you in a position where you'll have to do some learning by trial and error. As hard as it is, you need to reassure each other as often as you can.

Good luck in the next steps on your journey.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Well, we had our first MC session last night. It was via Skype, and we had some technical difficulties and couldn't get the video to start from our end (MC couldn't see us), but I think it was a good start. We both told MC we were committed to making this polyamorous situation work. We covered our back history, and covered some practical things we were wrestling with. We saved for later sessions W's affair, her discontent with the children, her bi-polar issues, and my communication issues. During the session I was very clear with the counsellor we had to get to a point where my emotional and sexual needs are getting met, so we'll see if we can make some progress in that area.

After session was over W headed to see her guy, I asked her not to stay too long, as she had to be at work at 7:30am. She gets back at about 4:00am, telling me they talked and talked about guy's mother's dementia for hours, etc. I was a little miffed that she is sacrificing her sleep to be with guy, and is something we'll definitely go over soon.

But she reached out and held my hand as we fell asleep, which is the first kind of contact like that she's initiated in weeks. It made me feel nice. When she left this morning she said she and guy are going to work on scheduling so we can figure out how to make this work.
 
And just now I called her up to ask her to have lunch with me, and she's in guy's town having "lunch" with him. This is about 9 hours after she left him at around 3:00 this morning. She apologized profusely. Never said anything to me about these plans.

So now, after promising me she was only going to spend two nights with him this week after last week's "every other night sleepover" with him and their weekend 24-hour jaunt, she has seen him every day this week so far.

Something has to change soon, and I expect tonight we're going to have a heart-to-heart about this NRE fog she's in. I know it's unavoidable, but she can change her behavior if she wants to. She's going to have to step up VERY soon and honor her promise to me to work on us and redirect some of that energy back to me or I'm going to hit the brakes on polyamory.
 
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It sounds like you guys are going through some ups and downs as far as making progress is concerned. Try to keep in mind the good things that she does (e.g. holding your hand in bed), and give her verbal appreciation for stuff like that, even if it is hard to do when you are thinking about the times when she slipped up.

There's no need to excuse her out of her bad behavior, but be as sympathetic as you can about the NRE. It really is hard to keep things in perspective when you're in that NRE fog. She's going to make some decisions that aren't very smart. You can help with that by stepping up the number of verbal reminders, and she may need a wake-up call now and then. But you'll have to walk a fine line here, as you don't want to ruin the marriage (or throw it away) if you can help it.

Try to keep the communication process going as a negotiation, and try to give the marriage counselling some more opportunity to help out. I think you and your wife are both in a fragile headspace right now, in your respective ways. The decisions you make today could have an enormous effect on the direction of the future, so make all those decisions with care.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
We had a first attempt at creating a schedule last night. It was a good start, but I can't really say it went well. She wants WAY too much time with him, in my opinion. Basically spending the night with him four nights/week (overnight), on week 1, then three nights/week (but not overnight) with him on week 2. Then repeat this pattern. I know this will be too much for me to handle. I'd rather her see him no more than two nights/week. This NRE fog is going to make it difficult to make a realistic schedule.

W: This is what I want. (And then she tells me the above).
Me: This is definitely a good starting point to making this schedule.
W: So you're saying no?

Not a good compromising attitude from her, in my opinion. I know she'll never go for what I want, either, so we'll have to hash it out and meet somewhere in the middle. That's the way negotiations work. Both parties give a little, and the end product is something where both parties get some of what they want.
 
Re:
"I know she'll never go for what I want, either, so we'll have to hash it out and meet somewhere in the middle. That's the way negotiations work. Both parties give a little, and the end product is something where both parties get some of what they want."

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it.

Re:
"I'd rather her see him no more than two nights/week."

I would almost tell her that verbatim. Perhaps slightly modified: "I know this probably wouldn't be doable for you, but if it were just up to me, I'd probably ask you to see him no more than two nights/week." Something like that.

The point is, I guess, to let her know that neither of you is going to really get exactly what you want, and that you'll both need to compromise.

Re:
"This NRE fog is going to make it difficult to make a realistic schedule."

Yes, it's true, it will make it difficult. It will probably test your patience. But keep stubbornly negotiating for that compromise, as much as you can.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Well, we settled on a schedule I think I can live with for now. I studied it carefully and I'm getting more face-time than her guy, and the children are getting more face-time, so we're going to try it for a while. I agreed to try it with a couple of HUGE caveats: If it becomes too much for me to handle emotionally, we can modify to reduce guy's face-time, and we begin to work hard on our own relationship so that I can get my needs met as well. We purposely built-in at least one date night/week with me alone (getting a babysitter).

Things seemed to go pretty well in counselling. We're going to continue that for a while. W was nice in bed last night, coming over to my side and grabbing my hand.
 
Glad to hear things have moved a bit more in the positive direction. I'm thinking they'll continue to do so, with progress being more noticeable after considerable lengths of time.

Keep us posted in any case,
With respects and regards,
Kevin T.
 
The W and I had a discussion today at lunch where we disagreed on how much we tell our 5 year-old girls about her relationship with her guy. Now that we've agreed on a schedule, W is going to be going to her guy's house 4 times every two weeks. She'll be leaving before the girls go to bed and not coming back home until she gets off work the following day. She told me she has told the girls a few times in the past she has been going to see "guy".

I told her I am NOT OK with this. I do not want our girls under any circumstances to think W has a boyfriend or that W is spending the night with a guy. Wife tried to convince me I shouldn't feel this way (again discrediting my feelings). I am going to start telling the girls that mommy is going to see some friends, or going to a party, or something similarly vague. I'd rather not lie to them, but I do not want them knowing the real truth. I feel they are too young and impressionable and could start thinking mommy is getting a new husband or they are getting a new father, and I am NOT OK with any of that. I don't want them to EVER think she is spending the night with a guy.

I'm OK if guy sees the girls occassionally, but I'd rather it not be too much. It's OK with me if they see him as a friend that's no different than our other friends we might have dinner with as a family once per week or play games with every week. I am NOT OK with them ever thinking mommy has someone who is a romantic interest.

I'm not going to bend to her on this. I've given her so much (more than probably 99% of husbands on this planet would), but she's going to have to do what I want in this regard. I'm prepared to pull the plug on this polyamory experiment if I ever hear one of my girls say something like "Why does mommy spend the night at "guy"'s house, or "Why does mommy go to see "guy" so much?"
 
I am surprised I've never seen this thread until today...
I think your wife has asked for way too much too many times, and I think you will regret that you've always caved to what she wants, that might be a good issue to work on in counseling too - why you aren't comfortable saying no when you mean no.

I'd sure change my password again too, and let her no in clear language that she does not have the right to try to remove my support system from me, and that if she was behaving in a right manner, she wouldn't be worried about you were saying said about her to your friend. I imagine she wouldn't "allow you" to have any privacy in communication with girlfriends either?

I foresee a big problem when you find a relationship of your own, because lets say she is willing to actually stay at home so you have time to go spend with your partner, if you decide for parity you want to spend the same amount of time as she does out of the house, then your relationship is pretty much down to roommates who pass in the night. I find it irresponsible that she will spend so much time from home when you have young children, and I wonder if it's not a bit irresponsible of you to agree to it happening too. Do you consider her to be a good parent?
 
I hope your relationship continues to improve. Based on everything that you've said here, you've been a saint to stay with your spouse! I hope you're able to stay strong while she gets better; it sounds like you want to save your marriage and after 15 years if commitment I can understand why. I cheated on my spouse too. She discovered what I was doing and confronted me about it (and I confessed), but it took a long time and a lot of sacrificing on both our parts to fix what I broke. But your situation sounds more taxing - you have to contend with her bipolar situation and her dishonesty (which can often accompany bipolar disorders). I have a lot of respect for what you're doing and wish you all the best.

.
 
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