Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc.: Merged Threads, General Discussion

An article on Jealousy & therapists

I'm going through the mono-to-poly hell right now with my primary so I'm doing my best to help him work through his emotions before we lose each other, and I came across this article from a counselor who gives methods of how to cope and how to understand jealousy. I found it really informative and wanted to share :eek:

Also, does anyone know of any poly friendly therapists in the tampa bay area? I found this directory
http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp//main.php?groupid[]=5
and then this therapist.
http://www.thelovebirds4u.com/
anyone ever use them? thanks! And here's the jealousy article.

http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/jealousy.html
 
Thanks for sharing

It's a good article, thanks for sharing. Can jealously ever completely eradicated do you think?

Sage
 
It's a good article, thanks for sharing. Can jealously ever completely eradicated do you think?

Sage

I'm not sure whether it's ever truly "eradicated".
But what happens is that it's recognized, understood at a deep level, and dealt with accordingly.

It's kind of like working out too hard at the gym. The first time - you pull a muscle. You're on your back for a week ! The next time you feel the pull. You have learned more about the muscles in your body and what their limitations are.
You back off ! You don't want to, but you know the outcome if you don't.

The more this repeats, the sooner you see it coming. It becomes second nature to back off and move to something else. A better outlook and way of handling things.

GS

PS: I also like the article. It gave some very simple straightforward explanations and some good, concrete steps you can take to minimize the impact in your life.
 
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totally with GS on the jealousy thing and the gym metaphor. in fact, i'll use a yoga metaphor...which i do a lot, as i am a yoga geek and have found that yoga has taught me gobs about how my mind works.

if there is a pose that you really HATE in yoga (and i don't mean it hurts you, i just mean it's uncomfortable or you've been working on it for a long time and you're frustrated with it), it means that it has something to teach you. instead of avoiding it, or trying to eradicate the feelings it brings up, force yourself to examine WHY you have those feelings. discover what makes you uncomfortable about it.

are you scared? go out on a limb and try it...worst case: you fall, you fail, you learn what doesn't work, and you try again.

does it cause pain? examine why...is it because of an old injury? are you pushing yourself too hard, too far or too fast? look for the place of balance between pushing and resting.

jealousy (like fear or uneasiness) is one of those tricky things that likes to hide its true motivations. picking it apart and addressing each individual aspect of it is where the learning lies! jealousy isn't something to eradicate, it's another opportunity to grow! :)
 
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jealousy (like fear or uneasiness) is one of those tricky things that likes to hide its true motivations. picking it apart and addressing each individual aspect of it is where the learning lies! jealousy isn't something to eradicate, it's another opportunity to grow! :)

That's very well said, Joyfulgirl! I agree completely. When the pain of jealousy arises, most of us want to run and hide, rather than to take a curious look at the thoughts and emotions/feelings which are there -- and how they are related. Just when we're being offered a great opportunity for major insight and freedom, we tend to turn away. Often blame is the method of this madness: "She/He did this to me!"

It takes courage to examine one's conditioning and habits of mind and heart. But that courage pays big. Thanks for your words of wisdom.
 
great post

Yes Joyful Girl, thanks for the insight. I really like the way you have set out your point (yoga analogy) I have found in other areas of life that when something is painful, engaging with it more fully is a useful way to move through it but i hadn't thought about jealousy in the same way. You are absolutely right jealously, picked apart can be an opportunity for growth. I hate the pain but next time it pops up I will try and seize the opportunity to do some growing.

Sage
 
Dealin with jealousy

I'm almost certain this is not a new question at this site. Hope I don't exasperate anyone with old ground.

Seems to me that any adult with an erotic relationship with more than one other has to deal with jealousy sooner or later, no matter how grown up everyone is. There will be problems in someone's heart, and eventually they will come out with them.

I would guess that the polyamorous work hard at overcoming jealousy, or dealing with jealousy in others. You aren't, I would guess, naturally jealous yourselves, or you have conscientiously gotten rid of your jealousy.

Is there a book anyone would recommend on the subject of dealing with your own or someone else's jealousy?

Failing that, I imagine many of you are experts or at least qualified to give advice on the subject. There is not a problem yet in my household. I'm asking for input, it's welcome here. Thanks to all.
 
You will hear visit www.xeromag.com a LOT! It is my favorite site to go to when I have a problem that I'm not ready to share with anyone yet.
 
I'm sure that a number of other people will give good advice or pointers to resources.

Seems to me that any adult with an erotic relationship with more than one other has to deal with jealousy sooner or later, no matter how grown up everyone is.

I suppose there's a way in which that's true. Any adult who relates to another human being is going to have to deal with annoyance, embarassment, frustration, jealousy, etc. sooner or later, no matter how grown up everyone is.

I would guess that the polyamorous work hard at overcoming jealousy, or dealing with jealousy in others. You aren't, I would guess, naturally jealous yourselves, or you have conscientiously gotten rid of your jealousy.

I wouldn't say that I wasn't naturally jealous, or that I have worked on overcoming jealousy, any more than I would say that I wasn't naturally embarassed, or have worked on overcoming embarassment.

I think that there's a really unfortunate tendency to treat jealousy as this big, scary, crippling problem, or as a curable disease. It's really not either of those things; it's an emotion much like any other. Look, it annoys me when my partner doesn't put my CDs back in their cases after listening to them. So I say "Hey, it annoys me when you do that," and put them back the way I like them. If I threw a big fit, threatened to end the relationship, or forbid her from ever listening to my CDs again, everyone would think I was acting like a jerk, and they'd be right! But we give tremendous liscense to people to act like that when the emotion is jealousy instead of annoyance.

Sometimes it can be cathartic to throw fits, I suppose, but I think that for the most part we should expect people to not act out when they're experiencing some emotion they'd rather not be feeling.
 
I wouldn't say that I wasn't naturally jealous, or that I have worked on overcoming jealousy, any more than I would say that I wasn't naturally embarassed, or have worked on overcoming embarassment.

I think that there's a really unfortunate tendency to treat jealousy as this big, scary, crippling problem, or as a curable disease. It's really not either of those things; it's an emotion much like any other. Look, it annoys me when my partner doesn't put my CDs back in their cases after listening to them. So I say "Hey, it annoys me when you do that," and put them back the way I like them. If I threw a big fit, threatened to end the relationship, or forbid her from ever listening to my CDs again, everyone would think I was acting like a jerk, and they'd be right! But we give tremendous liscense to people to act like that when the emotion is jealousy instead of annoyance.

Sometimes it can be cathartic to throw fits, I suppose, but I think that for the most part we should expect people to not act out when they're experiencing some emotion they'd rather not be feeling.
Thank you, jkelly. What you say in your post seems very sensible. I've been an actor for forty years and emotions were part of my stock in trade. For them to be so I had to get in touch with them.

Jealousy is a nasty one, though, and a dramatic one but not in any good sense. Seems like maybe it comes up when people haven't been paying attention to something big about their loved ones. And also when people have a sense of ownership they feel is lawful. Or a sense of security they think other people ought to supply.

I realize this is one-sided. Perhaps people ought to remain true to their commitments. But I am starting to think that the idea of commitment is evil. It fails to take into consideration that people are alive, are living, not robots, and we grow and change.

Hope everyone at the site is well! Y'all take care now, hear?
 
jealousy article

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...tlement/201003/disarming-the-jealousy-complex

"Disarming Complex Jealousy

1. Don't trust obsessions. They greatly distort reality. If you can't stop thinking about your partner flirting with someone else, you must distrust the thought process. The longer obsessive thinking goes on, the more certain you become and the more likely you are wrong.

2. Regulate core hurts. The primary component of complex jealousy is self-diminishment - you feel unlovable and inadequate as an intimate partner. These "core hurts" give rise to the obsessions. If, in my heart, I don't believe that I am worthy of love, how can I believe someone who says she loves me? I will assume that she doesn't know the real me, or she wants something else (my money, house, car, or socks), or she wants someone else. Because I cannot possibly be enough for her, I will look for "clues" that she is seeking fulfillment somewhere else. Many studies show that whatever the brain looks for, it will find.

When attacked by the painful feeling of unworthiness, before it stimulates a cycle of obsessions and revenge motives, ask yourself out loud:

"What can I do to feel more lovable and adequate?"

Just uttering the words will make it clear that devaluing, belittling, hassling, or punishing your loved one is unlikely to make you feel like a lovable and adequate partner.

To feel worthy of love and adequate as an attachment figure, begin by trying as hard as you can to see the world through your partner's eyes and to feel what it's like in his/her shoes. Appreciate that he/she probably feels unlovable and inadequate as well. Think of what you can do to help the both of you feel more worthy of love.

3. Focus on compassion, not trust. If you have suffered from complex jealousy, you don't have the confidence to trust. Focus instead on compassion for yourself and your loved one. Compassion, an important component of your core values, is sympathy for core hurts, with a motivation to heal, improve, appreciate, connect, or protect. Trust will eventually return, after a long period of self-compassion and compassion for loved ones. But it will fall apart almost immediately if you try to trust without a great deal of sustained compassion.

4. Follow the self-correcting motivation of simple jealousy. Be more compassionate, supportive, cooperative, and loving. Be mindful of the assets your partner brings to the relationship. Think of what you can do at this moment to make your relationship stronger."

thoughts on this and other points of the article??
 
Confusion

Hey RP,

I suspect you're going to know what I have to say about this before I say it. But for others that are maybe new or haven't heard this maybe it will be useful.

I'm always appalled but the apparent lack of knowledge of these waters by 'supposed' professionals or other knowledgeable people. And I think that's why 'jealousy' is such a difficult mountain to climb for most people. They are picking the wrong path based on advice of these people who are often on the wrong one themself !

1> Jealousy and envy are two very different things and have to be addressed differently and with different tools.

2> Jealousy is a FEAR based protective response. We are FEARFUL of LOSING something we value (usually highly).

3> Envy results from feelings of inadequacy and insecurity. We think life is a competition, relationships are a competition and that we don't have what we need to compete successfully.

Fear of loss can only come from something we feel we've WON ! Something we have some 'ownership' claims to. Living, sentinent creatures are not designed to be 'owned' !

Nobody can 'steal' anyone's heart, respect, love unless we behave in some manner as to become unrespected, - 'unloveable'. If this emotion can be removed so easily it was never there in the first place. Only a masquerade.

The feelings of fear and insecurity can be a catalyst though. As we witness so often on this forum and other similar places and in person, being forced (it seems that's what it often takes) to sit back, get some clarity on what's at the root of these emotions and belief systems, separate accordingly (jealousy vs envy), and attack the problem(s) using the proper tools and approach can be a life changing and life GIVING experience.

Once we have the proper understanding and develop some skills, life is never the same for us. It's often like the wind finally under our wings. A feeling of freedom and confidence that we always wished for before but understood at some deeper level we didn't have. Release of fear !

So I think this article adds more confusion to the mix rather than clarity.
Although some of the methods might be used in certain situations, overall it misses the big picture.

GS
 
Awesome that you put your 2 cents in GS. I am hoping that people will do so. We don't all think the same way, but putting our opinions out there is helpful to others in order that they come up with their own.

My thought is that jealousy and envy are hugely diverse in their meaning. Much like the definition of love or poly... each person has their own take. This article is one take. A valid one, but not the big picture to me.

I suggest reading the whole article to get the whole picture... it might make a difference. I just posted part of it.
 
............ We don't all think the same way, but putting our opinions out there is helpful to others in order that they come up with their own.

My thought is that jealousy and envy are hugely diverse in their meaning. Much like the definition of love or poly... each person has their own take.

Yes RP - I hear exactly what you are saying. How many conversations have most of us had over the need to get semantically clear in order to have a productive conversation ? !!!

But I'm not so quick (or comfortable) trying to let these two terms wash over as 'you can have your meaning and I can have mine'. Because these emotions and reactions are SO critical to all relationships and cause SO much drama and heartache, it's imperative that we have a clear and agreed-to standard. We're often building life rafts because of these terms and the use of the right tool to build with is critical. Otherwise - the raft will likely sink (unless we are plain lucky :) ).
If I need a hammer and you bring me a saw.............well.........you get the picture.
The tools needed to reconstruct 'jealousy' and 'envy' are dramatically different. If we can't even agree what we're building what's the odds ?

Careful..............

GS
 
Perhaps GS. I guess I haven't felt or dealt with jealousy or envy in so long it isn't part of my philosophizing right now. I don't agree or disagree with the article. I don't agree or disagree with you. I just don't have any investment at this point in any of it... I am willing to be a listener on this one. If and when I have a stance, I will be sure to let everyone know ;):D
 
As someone currently experiencing jealousy or envy. This is good timing. I am .. trying to figure out which it is. I rarely experience jealousy in life. I never fear losing what I have (ironic right now I guess). I am confident in my relationships core...but its the misc things around the core that get me. GS's explanation is clear and concise. I appreciate that. With his explanation I am leaning towards envy.

Anyways, great timing for the article and responses. Still doing my own reading trying to figure out whats happening and how to deal. :)

Thanks
 
Leaving definitions to the experts

Envy, jealousy and schadenfreude
See also: Jealousy#Comparison_with_envy

"Envy" and "jealousy" are often used interchangeably, but in correct usage they stand for two different distinct emotions. In proper usage, jealousy is the fear of losing something that one possesses to another person (a loved one in the prototypical form), while envy is the pain or frustration caused by another person having something that one does not have oneself. Envy typically involves two people, and jealousy typically involves three people. It is possible to be envious at more than one individual at any given time. Usually envy involves wanting the beauty, wealth, or socioeconomic status of another individual. Envy and jealousy result from different situations and are distinct emotional experiences.[8] Both envy and jealousy are etymologically related to schadenfreude, the rejoicing at, or taking joy in, or getting pleasure from the misfortunes of others.[9][10]
[edit]In philosophy

Aristotle (in Rhetoric) defined envy (φθόνος phthonos) "as the pain caused by the good fortune of others",[11][12] while Kant defined it as "a reluctance to see our own well-being overshadowed by another's because the standard we use to see how well off we are is not the intrinsic worth of our own well-being but how it compares with that of others" (in Metaphysics of Morals). In Buddhism the third of the four divine abidings is mudita, taking joy in the good fortune of another. This virtue is considered the antidote to envy and the opposite of schadenfreude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envy

everything else is just opinion.....but then again even experts are just expressing their opinion.
 
1> Jealousy and envy are two very different things and have to be addressed differently and with different tools.

2> Jealousy is a FEAR based protective response. We are FEARFUL of LOSING something we value (usually highly).

3> Envy results from feelings of inadequacy and insecurity. We think life is a competition, relationships are a competition and that we don't have what we need to compete successfully.

I'll have to disagree with this.

Jealousy is the fear of losing something, yes. What drives it is most likely a feeling of insecurity. In that, we agree.

Envy is wanting what somebody else has. It may or may not be driven by feelings of inadequacy or insecurity. Indeed, one can feel envy without ever feeling inadequate or insecure.

Fear of loss can only come from something we feel we've WON ! Something we have some 'ownership' claims to.

I think that's a nonsensical notion. We can certainly lose what we expect to have available without ever having "won" anything. And it has nothing to do with feeling ownership of anybody.

I expect my wife to hang around because she tells me she enjoys my company. I didn't "win" her company any more than I "won" the friendship of my best friend from high school. I certainly don't feel I own either of the two.

So the idea that fear of loss can only come from feeling we own somebody else just doesn't hold up to examination.

If this emotion can be removed so easily it was never there in the first place. Only a masquerade.

I also find this nonsensical. Emotions are sometimes fleeting and vaporous, lasting but a moment. At other times they can burn in the hearth of someone's heart for ages. There's no guarantee of longevity of emotion. With that in mind, to say that a short-lived emotion never existed strikes me as a bit absurd.
 
Because I cannot possibly be enough for her, I will look for "clues" that she is seeking fulfillment somewhere else. Many studies show that whatever the brain looks for, it will find.

So true. There is a fine line between intuition and confirmation bias.


When attacked by the painful feeling of unworthiness, before it stimulates a cycle of obsessions and revenge motives, ask yourself out loud:

"What can I do to feel more lovable and adequate?"

Just uttering the words will make it clear that devaluing, belittling, hassling, or punishing your loved one is unlikely to make you feel like a lovable and adequate partner.

This advice alone has been the key to overcoming my feelings of jealousy. If you feel like you're not enough, that likely means that you are not enough... for yourself.

Focus on compassion, not trust.

This is a tricky bitch for me. I am the trusting sort and, while I totally get that in the throes of jealousy compassion is more powerful than trust, that has always been my secret weapon. The idea that I'm not confident enough to rely on my trusting nature is very disarming to me. I can't trust my trust? Fuck.

Follow the self-correcting motivation of simple jealousy. Be more compassionate, supportive, cooperative, and loving. Be mindful of the assets your partner brings to the relationship. Think of what you can do at this moment to make your relationship stronger.

Check, check and check.

Thanks RP. Good stuff.
 
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