Lost and lonely

Hi guys. A little bit about me and my situation. I'm 24 with three kids (yeah...) been married to my husband for 6 years now. He recently had an affair and after it blew up in our faces, decided to come out and tell me that he felt like he wanted to be poly-amorous. I have no qualms about encounters here and there... together... but he has been going about this the wrong way, and I need some help. I saw this as a place where I can get information and advice from people who are more experienced than I am, or have been in similar situations in regards to either my husband or myself. Thank you guys. :eek:
 
Welcome. Sorry it is not under better circumstances. :(

I find it best to just be firm but fair. I feel your sorrow but you need to back up through your polymath tiers to the first one of "your relationship to YOU as part of a couple" tier to answer...

Are you still willing to BE in this couple? Was a hard limit broken? Was it a soft limit?

Then retravel down the tiers and check the links for breaks in the chain if you decide it is negotiable or not.

Every polyship, even a universe of 2, has polymath.

Yours? It breaks out to

  • 1)You to you (as part of a couple and not a footloose single. You took a ding from left field. Ow! Hang in there.)
  • 2) You --> him (you seem open to trying to understand all this. Despite your pain. Kudos to your willing to not shut YOU down.)
  • 3)Him --> himself (as part of a couple. He dropped MAJOR balls in this tier)
  • 4) Him --> you (How well he owned up? Or it was discovered hemming hawing? I don't know how he is playing on this tier. This could influence how you feel about apple knowledge.)
  • 5) you + him = as a duo. The team working well as a team. (By dropping balls in that other tier, this one took some dings)
  • 6) You - Him = how/when the relationships ends. How you want it to be. Because all relationships end. You may have thought you signed up for "death do us part." That's an ideal, noble, certainly. I have it too. But I've also covered divorce with my DH and how we want to part if that happens. How to be in a way that leaves us friends at the end of the transition phase. Because I'd like to be friends. I do NOT want stupidshitthings. I can bear pain of parting but I cannot stand stupidshitthings.

Here's my gamebook. I keep it short. Life being life, I expect conflict. That's another page for HOW I deal with it, but my mission states "3 times you are out" if it's the same dang crap all the time with no effort in repairs. I sign up to support you in your own personal growth sure. But make an effort TO grow!

What sort of framework in your marriage rship do you have in place to deal with breech of contract? Calling into account? Making ammends?

  • Because that trust repair work has to happen first. But only AFTER *I* decide I'm still willing to play ball here. I might not be. (In my world lying is a one strike game over, even lies of omission. I'd have to have evidence of extenuating circumstances and right reasons to consider giving it a pass.)
  • Then perhaps we can talk about renegotiating the rship contract to incorporate poly needs after examination in subcommittee
    • Are they really needs? Or just his cop out to his philandering ways?
    • Was he actually philandering? Or intent/heart was pure but his communication skills are emotionally weenie?
    • Is he closet poly just struggling to drive this car ethically? Has he apologized? Made ammends?
    • Is he closet hard swinging? Does he want to do THAT ethically or not? Has he apologize? Made ammends?
    • what's the weak link in there?
    • and are you willing to take all that on board or is it a hard limit for you? Are his limits fair? Because if you open up, you both open up right? What is good for the goose is good for the gander. You might not CHOOSE to actually exercise that right to see others. BUT EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL!
  • Identify the weak and strong points that need work. Then work it.
  • BEFORE moving on to actually dating in poly ways. (If it is really poly.) If it is swing, seek swing boards for support/guidance. That's a different arena of ethical non-monogamy.

I would be seriously leery of working with the affair partner. Were they lied to? Or were they enabling? Or did they not give a damn about handling my buckets with minimal sloshing?

That part may go out to subcommittee if he wants to continue rship with dishonest beginnings.

Before any of that gets rolling it's still at the #1.

YOU. So we come fill circle:

Do you even want to go there? To continue to be in relationship with him? And if so, what will "being in RIGHT relationship with me" take now?


Those answers are within you. Not without. I cannot begin to answer that for you. I can only share how I deal with things like this. And so far I have not had that exeperience of a cheating partner. Lying yes, but not lie & cheat.

I gave it one snooze tag, and lies continued so I broke up. I felt terrible for a time and then I felt much much better and FREE of lies stupidshitthings. Yay!

GL!
GG
 
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Before you read my post-please re-read GG's post, it's got a WEALTH of info you REALLY need to consider first.

IF AFTER you go through the things above, you decide you want to make it work with him-

FIRST- HE needs to study up on what POLYAMOROUS is and HOW TO CHANGE from a cheater to a poly person in ACTION AND ATTITUDE before it will ever be possible.
(this said, from a wife who cheated and is now poly, with the husband and the lover whom I cheated with)

SECOND- YOU need to study up on it and identify how you will have to change in action and attitude from a monogamous lifestyle, mindset, expectations etc; to a poly one.

THIRD-you need to have a SERIOUS discussion about the other woman. AND if the decision is that he's in love with her and wants her to be his other partner-THEN
SHE ALSO needs to do the above steps.


That said, I cheated for nearly 10 years on my husband with the other love of my life. It was painful for all of us. When I finally found out what polyamory was, I figured out that my problem was being naturally polyamorous (capable of being fully in love with more than one person simultaneously) and trying to fit into the box of monogamy that I'd been taught.
I expressed my quandry to my husband. He wasn't happy-but he'd already caught me several times in the affair and was intrigued (through his pain) at my sudden honesty.

That was nearly 3 years ago. I committed on September 25th 2009 to not lie again-ever to my husband or myself or anyone else.

It's been HELL. The first year my husband was a total mess, seeking revenge, wanting to punish my boyfriend and I. He made false accusations and true accusations and he didn't believe anything I said.
But, I stuck to my guns always telling the truth-even when it hurt me to admit it and when I knew it was going to hurt him.
The second year was me struggling becuase he wasn't being honest. He was lying about what he wanted, what he could handle, how he felt. I was angry that I was putting myself out there completely-and risking the most vulnerable parts of myself to him honestly-only to have him beat me down with distrust and accusations AND protect himself with lies.
The first half of this last year was much of the same.
Then, a breakthrough in March clicked for him-when he lost his girlfriend and potential lover, through his own lies (of omission).
Since March our world has started to spin gracefully together, with my boyfriend who lives with us (and our kids).

But-that is three years of HELL. Not a little struggle. HELL.

So, YES it can work.
No you can't control polyamory by limiting "who and when" someone falls in love. You can limit how a person is allowed to act upon their emotions-but that often backfires terribly.
No it isn't easy to transition from cheating to full honest, open, loving relationships with one another-it's harder with multiple people.

(feel free to read my blog if you want to see some of the ups and down issues and suggestions that I found helpful along the way. But, seriously-go re-read GG's post a few times-it's VERY profoundly necessary steps she laid out there)
 
Thank you very much. The information you have given me and the information that I know will come, along with similar experiences will definitely be a big help. Yeah, it was very hard. We were having troubles and he basically just gave up and looked for an equally miserable person to lean on. He lied (later saying it was for my own protection, since he didn't want to hurt me) and saw her for a year, enough to get her pregnant. (She terminated, and I don't know if it makes me a bad person to not feel horrified about it.) I'll be posting a blog to write more in depth, and maybe have some help in sorting out my feelings. It's been a very rough time for me. I appreciate any help that you guys are willing to give me, and any experiences you guys are willing to share.
 
Ugh. That sounds messy.

Though we are closed now, DH and I are HARD LIMIT firm on genetic monogamy and barrier sex. (Ex: condoms, dams, etc)

We still hang on tight to "DO NOT LIE. Hard truth it to me. I can take it!"

And in all these years that served us well.

  • Things may be hard to speak. So fucking SHOUT IT out if even in a whisper.
  • Things maybe be hard to hear. So fucking LISTEN LIKE A MOFO even amid internal hurricane emotional weather!

We were having troubles and he basically just gave up and looked for an equally miserable person to lean on.

More like "avoid with" -- because he's been avoiding some rship work with you long before the affair it sounds like.

WHY having troubles in the rship? Adding NEW person to the mix just amps up the polymath and that's no help at ALL.

If it was from lack of people articulating wants, needs, and limits so everyone could have right to clear communication?

I smell emotional weenie-ness afoot that needs repairs. Is he very emotional work shirky? That's what I'm whiffing.

I apologize if I sound terse or brusque but "emotional weenie-ness" is a personal peeve that pushes ALL my buttons. NO rship can hope survive on weenie. EVER. Communication is just too needed and critical a vehicle . It's the basic back and forth shuttle of the RELATE in RELATIONSHIP.

He lied (later saying it was for my own protection, since he didn't want to hurt me)

Nope. He did not want to own his weenie in articulating his wants, needs, and limits to you.

Then he wanted to not feel/own the yucky in his lie of omission. So had to make peace with himsefl in his mind so changed his dishonesty to noble "protection" of you.

He's not owning what he fears. What's he fear? And will he try to hand you that baggage of his to hold for him?

and saw her for a year, enough to get her pregnant. (She terminated, and I don't know if it makes me a bad person to not feel horrified about it.)

I don't care. Her body is her body and her domain.

I'd just be furious if my partner put MY body in danger without my knowledge. He was obviously going bareback -- could have given me cooties! THIS is how he protects wife? GRRR! :mad:

AND this is how he protects his OWN health and well being? He could catch something and leave me a widow? How's THAT protecting wife? GRRR! :mad:

I'll be posting a blog to write more in depth, and maybe have some help in sorting out my feelings. It's been a very rough time for me. I appreciate any help that you guys are willing to give me, and any experiences you guys are willing to share.

Again, welcome and again sorry it isn't under better terms.

But however this rship destiny unfolds, I hope YOU get to the place you need to be at to feel better than this in your own destiny.

hugs
GG
 
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Thank you, so much, GG, for pointing out about the bareback-ed-ness! I had asked him back when he first came clean, if they had been intimate, so that I could get tested, as we go bareback since I have an IUD (sorry, if tmi, lol), and he said they hadn't. Then after finally telling me, he claims that she stated that she was on BC. When I asked her, she claimed that she was, but that, surprise, surprise, it failed. I told him that it was pure foolishness and that he should've learned from his mistakes (ours). And that is what he doesn't seem to understand, that what HE does, also affects me, since he has chosen to keep me in his life.

Yes, he is emotionally constipated. His mother is a terror, and his dad was very repressed. I come from a very loving family, very passionate, in love and in fighting. I always tried to give him love, hugs, and affection. I backed off after he told me that it was getting annoying, and that he didn't want it all the time. Then he said that he thought that it meant I wanted to leave him because I wasn't showering him with affection anymore. Ugh. Anyways, I've still got a lot of anger still pent up inside me, but I really want to get rid of it and move on. I'm still foolish enough to love him, and am still at a loss as to what will happen the next time. I am open minded, but he has caused so much harm with his lies and sneaking around.

I have posted my blog. It's entirely too long, but it felt good to spill it out.
 
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Hello Raging B,
Welcome to our forum.

I think you can come out of this okay ... You just have to establish with your husband that there will be no more secrets, and no more lies. You may need to have several marathon talks and discussions before being ready to move on to the next step.

You also have to figure out what works for you, and what you can live with. What are your goals? What are your husband's goals? Are they compatible?

Hopefully Polyamory.com can be of some help to you as you sort through these difficult questions.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Hello Raging B,
Welcome to our forum.

I think you can come out of this okay ... You just have to establish with your husband that there will be no more secrets, and no more lies. You may need to have several marathon talks and discussions before being ready to move on to the next step.

You also have to figure out what works for you, and what you can live with. What are your goals? What are your husband's goals? Are they compatible?

Hopefully Polyamory.com can be of some help to you as you sort through these difficult questions.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

That's why I've come here, because whenever I ask questions, he gives me the run around, or spouts out this... pseudo spiritual stuff that leaves me opened mouth. Which makes me think I'm not asking the right questions, and he's not quite getting the point of being a true poly. Thank you all for the warm welcomes, it really is nice to be open and have help.
 
Keep on working on the communication thing; you can't make any major decisions until you and he are on the same page.

Any chance he would join this forum? What about http://www.morethantwo.com/ ... any chance he would go there? It sounds like he could use some basics on what poly is.
 
Keep on working on the communication thing; you can't make any major decisions until you and he are on the same page.

Any chance he would join this forum? What about http://www.morethantwo.com/ ... any chance he would go there? It sounds like he could use some basics on what poly is.

I'll talk to him about it. He's actually on this forum too, I found out today. I was doing research and this was the first forum to pop up on google when I typed in "poly amorous forum", so... yeah. lol. But I'll take a look at it too. It just seems ludicrous that he declares himself to be this and that, and hasn't even taken time to research it, since I seem to know more about it, and I'm not claiming anything. :rolleyes:
 
That's why I've come here, because whenever I ask questions, he gives me the run around...
The more you read about poly, the more you'll notice the best advice always starts with explaining how important it is to be honest with yourself and others. That seems to be the hard part for a lot of people. That's where it all starts. That is the foundation. Without that, you might as well be trying to drive a car blind.

From what you said, your husband doesn't want to tell you the truth. Until he decides he wants to be honest with you about who he is and what he really wants, adding more people won't bring you closer. It'll tear you apart. The best thing both of you can do right now is focus on why he wants to give you the run around.

Poly is not the answer to a troubled mono relationship. Fix the mono relationship first. Best medicine - honesty. If he can't get to the place where he can be reliably honest with you, then poly is not the question or the answer. At that point, I would say maybe its time to think about moving on with your life.
 
I have to agree.

I consider monogamous marriage a closed polyship of 2!

The rules still all apply --

  • honest communication being vital.
  • everyone holding up rights and responsibilites they agreed to in their polyship framework
  • Being honest with ONESELF first, then the partner

I always marvel people want to jump into polyships of greater number, and deal in greater polymath and polysaturation points when they haven't even mastered the polyship of 1.

You relationship to YOURSELF. If you cannot be honest to yourself how can you ever get to NAME you wants, needs, and limits in a real way? Articulate, bullet list and package up into "sharable" mode instead of fuzzy murky?

Much less share them CLEARLY with another partner?

Much less share them with MORE than one?

*head boggles*

From what you said, your husband doesn't want to tell you the truth. Until he decides he wants to be honest with you about who he is and what he really wants, adding more people won't bring you closer. It'll tear you apart. The best thing both of you can do right now is focus on why he wants to give you the run around.

Eh, I know that answer. He wants to do the run around because there's something there he does not want to articulate, air out, and OWN.

I rather have an honest person telling me "I want to be selfish" from the get go. Hell, I may even choose to play there if I'm in a selfish mode too and I'm seeking a FWB thing with no strings because I want to process on my own but still have a warm body to play with. Sometimes we need what we need. But I want it honest, not nambypamby.

That just drives me up the freakin' WALL. I can't hope to get what I want, if you are selling false wares. I can't hope to give you what you want, if you won't tell me what it freakin' IS.

Play ball RIGHT, or just don't play with me at ALL. Don't waste my time. I can respect you still even if the dance cards don't line up. But UGH. Ethics, please!

GG
 
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Yeah, I know. It's been making me want to beat my head against a brick wall. Him and I have both made mistakes in being totally honest with each other, and have learned to regret it. Or so I thought. And I believe that a lot of these... issues of his stem from an extreme lack of self confidence, as he really just wants attention. That is basically what he seeks. He wants attention for himself. And like you said, you have to work on your relationship with yourself before you can have it with even one other person. And if you can't have a relationship with one person, what is it that is going to make it easier with two people, or three? That's really what has me grinding my teeth. The whole experience has somewhat been soured for me, seeing as how I'll be paranoid if they're meeting behind my back or plotting or even having freakin' BABIES, until he can prove that he is being honest and trustworthy. Argh!
 
The more I read your words, the more I see a frustrated woman trying to convince her immature husband to grow up. No one comes into this world mature and self aware. It takes time to get there. He's going to grow up at his own pace and for his own reasons. The real question for you is do you want to be in a relationship with him while he's deciding if, when, how and why he wants to grow up? The world is full of people to connect with. Peace and balance is a good thing to carry around on the inside. There are people out there who know that because they have that inside.

If you are "desperately" attracted to him, even with his dramas, then I would say the only real question you need to ask is why that is, and the only person who has that answer is you. I know it's very frustrating to be in your situation. He is going to grow up for his own reasons. The reason you want him to grow up right now is so he can make the relationship a happy place for you to be. Its a very rare thing for things to work that way. Asking him to grow up for that reason is your way of asking him to do your emotional work for you. Keep in mind also, that if you are "desperately attracted to him", that desperation is your drama. You bring that drama into the relationship. It will get in the way of the "happy place" your trying to create with him. It's much easier, more realistic, and much more healthy to take your attention off trying to get to that happy place with him. Put your attention on creating it for yourself, in your own life. If he wants to come along and be a part of it, drama free (honesty), he can. If not, you're creating it for yourself anyway, because that is where you want to be.

I know its a lot to absorb. It's important for you to understand this stuff. It's good raw material to use to make intelligent decisions.
 
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He's not the only one who needs to grow. I'm still trying myself. I don't think anyone is ever done "growing up." What I'm so frustrated by, is the way he changed and how swiftly. These issues have come on in the last two years. Before that, there was no hint of this.

Two years ago, though, he started experimenting in the usage of lsd, and when I asked around some acquaintances who are familiar with the drug, they said that it can alter you. Now, I'm not saying "Drugs did it!" because thats far from the truth, but I think it had an influence. Anyways, my point is, I'm frustrated because it seems like this all has come out of left field. I'm not so "desperately attracted" to him that I don't see his flaws. I love him very deeply, and I have kids with him.

I try to make the best decision for the family as a whole, because to me, that is what is most important. It's hurtful to think about the fact that he put himself first for a very long time when he claimed that family was the most important factor as well. I try not to bring unnecessary drama into play, and it's hard. I do want to scream to the world that I don't seem to matter to the person I want to matter to the most.

I love my husband, despite the stuff that he has pulled. I can't predict what will happen next, maybe I will have to strike out on my own, which is a very scary thought indeed. I... think I put in pertinent information, but I can't seem to wake up, so it could just be incoherent babbling...
 
And I believe that a lot of these... issues of his stem from an extreme lack of self confidence, as he really just wants attention.

That's what I thought too.

He parks his self esteem in other places and he wants the strokes/attention to feed/feel it rather than sit his booty down to look inward because he doesn't want to park it there.

Could choose to REALLY work on the self esteem thing and learn to validate HIMSELF so he can be his own self esteem generator instead. But doesn't at this point. Not ready to go there -- I have no idea what baggage he's carrying.

(Frankly, I don't care. You are both still internet strangers to me but so far I see you doing the hard work of personal growth, so I'm more sympathetic to you. I know it burns. Hang Time at the Forge. And here you are, trying to suck it up and roll. Kudos, BTW!)

You build self esteem by doing esteemable things. In this case -- owning your own freakin' bag no matter what it costs you, being a person if integrity, a person of your word.

Making honest, deliberate intentional choices, and OWNING the consequences of the choice(s) you made!

Not running away from the "feels uncomfortable" that goes with taking a real stand on something. Not flying willy nilly by the seat of your pants.

Changing from "I want everyone to like me all the time" to "I want everyone who matters to me to like me most of the time, and forget about the rest! They can like me or not like me, I do not care for they do not matter most to me!"

I hope for his sake he's ready to own his own bag. It's not going to be fun Hang Time for him. He's been putting OFF and putting OFF so his Hang Time will thus be all the longer. But better now than never. He's making himself his Morley's chain and sooner or later he'll have to wear the burden.

GG
 
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I love my husband, despite the stuff that he has pulled.
To quote Tina Turner, "What's love got to do with it?" She loved Ike and he beat the shit out of her.

I have learned the hard way that love is simply not enough to sustain a happy relationship. Repeat this to yourself several times a day: "Love is not enough!"

The cold hard fact is that there needs to be mutual RESPECT, CARING, HONORING ONE'S WORD, HONEST COMMUNICATION, and LOVING BEHAVIOR to sustain a relationship and have it thrive and succeed. And by succeed, I mean bring all parties satisfaction, fulfillment, and a sense of being "home."

If those aspects are missing, then you have a choice to make.

If your partner feels that sticking his dick in other people is more important than giving you the RESPECT, CARING, HONOR, HONEST COMMUNICATION, and LOVING BEHAVIOR you deserve as his steadfast partner, to whom he made a commitment, then you have a choice to make.

If you consent to poly, then you need to make sure in no uncertain terms that he acts and treats you with RESPECT, CARING, and HONOR, and makes a 100% effort to HONEST COMMUNICATION and LOVING BEHAVIOR or out the door he goes. Or out the door you go (with your head held high).

There are worse things that can happen than splitting up. And I say that as someone who thought my divorce was literally reason enough not to exist anymore. Devastating, totally. But one can get through it and there are worse things. One of those worse things would be staying and tolerating disrespectful treatment.

If he has no interest in being a grown-up and getting real, why the hell stick around? Remember the mantra: Love is not enough! Love is not enough! No matter how much you love someone, you are nobody's doormat.
 
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(Frankly, I don't care. You are both still internet strangers to me but so far I see you doing the hard work of personal growth, so I'm more sympathetic to you. I know it burns. Hang Time at the Forge. And here you are, trying to suck it up and roll. Kudos, BTW!)

Haha, this made my morning! Thank you. I still have a lot of growing myself to do. I should probably add to the blog my own faults, especially as I've accepted my, albeit admittedly small, part of the problem. I am a very disorganized person. I am horrible at cleaning. I was never, ever meant to be a housewife. I'm used to have someone there with me while I clean to talk to (big family), or being able to play music loudly (oldest son is autistic, so he gets upset when I play loud music).

So when I'm depressed, I don't want to do squat. So I know that i'm not blameless, but as you said, I've been working on my own personal growth, and trying to come out of this a ... stronger person, if I can't be a better one. And while my self-esteem isn't where it should be (I took a pretty critical hit with this), I'm trying not to use others to determine my self worth... I've got a lot of reading ahead of me, which, luckily, I enjoy. I appreciate you guys giving me advice that I can actually use, and research.
 
Everyone who has replied to this thread so far has given you solid information. Run with it.

What I'm so frustrated by, is the way he changed and how swiftly. These issues have come on in the last two years. Before that, there was no hint of this.

You are married to the person he is now. Not the person he used to be.



Now, I'm not saying "Drugs did it!" because thats far from the truth.
You're kidding me, right? Drugs have nothing to do with it? Wake up girl!

I try to make the best decision for the family as a whole, because to me, that is what is most important.

You give your family the person you are. If you're happy and strong, you give happiness and strength to your family. If your miserable... you give misery. Which one do you think is best? Your first job is to do FOR YOU what you need to do FOR YOU, even if that means ending it with him. This will get you a lot closer to being able to give your kids your happiness and strength, instead of your misery.

Staying with someone who uses drugs tells your kids its ok to use drugs. Is that what you want to teach them? My personal opinion about alcoholics and druggies is they care about no one.
 
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I should probably add to the blog my own faults, especially as I've accepted my, albeit admittedly small, part of the problem. I am a very disorganized person. I am horrible at cleaning. I was never, ever meant to be a housewife . . . So when I'm depressed, I don't want to do squat . . . And while my self-esteem isn't where it should be (I took a pretty critical hit with this)

Your husband's behavior and treatment of you rests solely on his head, and no matter how sloppy a housekeeper you are or how disorganized a wife, you do not deserve to be treated like shit. Yes, I do believe that each person in a relationship is 100% responsible for their part in it. It ain't 50-50. We're all whole people with full responsibility for our lives. But perhaps the part you played, that you are responsible for, was your acceptance of his behaviors or overlooking them just to hang on to the marriage. It certainly isn't that you were a bad wife. Puh-leez don't do that to yourself. He chose to lie and cheat, you didn't force him to do that. He just as easily could have made a different choice, like coming to you and talking about his dissatisfaction, or going to therapy to address whatever hole he's trying to fill up inside himself by dishonestly sneaking around to fuck someone else without your consent.

"Critical hit" -- is it really any wonder you've been depressed? Dear woman, you need to open your eyes, see his douchebag actions for what they were, let yourself feel your anger about it (you can't "get rid of it" without letting yourself experience it first), stop blaming yourself, stop making excuses for him, and draw the line.
 
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