He wants a romantic relationship without the dating part

persephone

New member
I have a good male friend who would like to be more to me, and I am very fond of him, but we are stuck at an impasse that I don't see us getting out of. I was curious what others would think of our situation.

I met J. on a dating site and we became friends and talked about having a poly relationship together. J. is married with kids, as am I, and they were just trying polyamory again after a hiatus of some years. At first, J's wife C. was not sure she wanted J. to proceed with dating me, or anyone, because of their family obligations. (She was, and is, not interested in having poly relationships for herself, although she has has them in the past.) I didn't argue, I just decided, no worries, J. can be my friend, we don't need to be in a romantic relationship together. That changed last November when their family obligations lessened somewhat and C. told J. that it was now fine for him to date me, and even encouraged him to take me out for the evening. We both had a very good time. I expected that he and I would continue seeing each other one on one, and he did make plans with me a few times after that, but they were always plans that included C. as well. (Both us ladies are straight.) I like C., but I made it very clear to J. that I wasn't dating her too. So he'd make plans with me, then invite C. along, and I'd shrug and invite my husband. We all became good couple friends that way, but my romantic relationship with J. did not feel, to me, as if it was progressing at all.

I finally realized that one way to have alone time with J. despite his seeming unwillingness to schedule it, was to meet on our lunch hour (we work fairly near each other), so I suggested doing that. C. cannot have lunch with us because her place of work is too far away from ours. We got into a pattern of seeing each other once a week that way, with no spouses or kids along. That was nice, and did help me feel closer to him, but I need more one-on-one quality time than that if I am going to be in a romantic relationship with someone. I've expressed this to J. upon a number of occasions.

At present, it feels like J. and I are in a stalemate. He's made it pretty clear that he would like to be in a relationship with me, but does not want to spend any alone time with me that would take him away from his wife and kids in the evenings or on weekends. I have made it crystal clear that a big part of what I want in a relationship is someone to go out with in the evenings, dinner, movies, all that mundane but fun stuff. I've had two local poly relationships in the past, and I had a "date night" with each of my boyfriends, and had a lot of fun with both of them. That is what feels normal and appropriate to me.

C. has made it clear to me that she supports J. having a relationship with me, and I do not believe she would object if he saw me in the evenings occasionally without her along. I think the issue is J. feeling guilty about taking any time away from his family to pursue another relationship. He has suggested to me that one way for us to have alone time is for me to come over to his house after his kids are asleep and "cuddle" in his basement. This might work for me if we ended up doing that AFTER spending some fun time together out doing something, but as a goal in and of itself, well, him suggesting that just felt demeaning to me, not very different from the creeps online who try to get me to just come over to their place for casual sex.

It seems a shame to me that he and I are stuck this way. We definitely have an attraction, we live quite near each other, our spouses are supportive, everything SHOULD work, and yet, we're both frustrated with each other and the situation.

J. recently said that he and I just have different needs. I agreed with him, then told him that if you really care about someone, you get out of your comfort zone a little to try to meet the other person's needs.

Thoughts?
 
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I've talked about this before, and even blogged about it, so apologies to those who remember for this familiar territory, but I think that it's really important for each of you to work out the things that are important in a relationship and to categorize them into what I call Needs, wants and likes.

Needs are non-negotiables - things that must be in place (or not be in place in the case of boundaries) for the relationship to stand a chance of working. If a need cannot be met, then that is a show-stopper.

Wants are things that are important, but could be given up as part of a negotiation.

Likes are "nice-to-haves".

If you and he have needs that are not compatible, then asking him to give that up under the guise of "expanding his comfort zone" starts to get into the area of not respecting his limits and needs. If this idea is a Want of his, then it is certainly something that you can negotiate, but you need to do it on the basis of making things work for the both of you, not him unilaterally giving up something that he regards as important.

And now, just to be provocative - you are asking him to expand his comfort zone in order to give you what you need - how about you expanding your comfort zone to give him what he needs? Why does this have to be one-sided?

In my opinion, so much of this sort of this relationship negotiation comes down to understanding how important each of our Needs, Wants and Likes are, and communicating them to each other in an effective way so that all the win-wins can be explored. if there are conflicting needs that are by their nature non-negotiable, then no amount of discussion, cajoling or arguing is going to make it work in a positive way.
 
Think about a situation, in which one has three resources: money, time, and efforts.

Some people have better money managing skills than others, and end up financially better off than peers with the same income. Similarly, there are people who "make time" by managing their time more efficiently then others. Lastly, the same can be said about managing one's efforts. Now, things get even more complicated when not everyone has the same starting pool of money, time, and effort/energy to spend.

Maybe J. is short in the time/effort department or thinks that he is so. In such a case, maybe he cannot "afford you" in terms of effort and time. I would also feel frustrated is someone is inviting me to her place for when everyone is asleep to "cuddle in the basement."

On the other hand, I could understand that because I spend very little time with my wife - we live apart during the week due to jobs. For this reason I would not meet people when I could spend that little time with my wife. I'd rather meet friends on "my time."

If J. can afford spending quality time with you, the question is how he better manages his time and efforts. If he is stretched thin and cannot put the time and effort in you, then you have a discuss.
 
I expected that he and I would continue seeing each other one on one, and he did make plans with me a few times after that, but they were always plans that included C. as well. (Both us ladies are straight.) I like C., but I made it very clear to J. that I wasn't dating her too. So he'd make plans with me, then invite C. along, and I'd shrug and invite my husband. We all became good couple friends that way, but my romantic relationship with J. did not feel, to me, as if it was progressing at all.

At present, it feels like J. and I are in a stalemate. He's made it pretty clear that he would like to be in a relationship with me, but does not want to spend any alone time with me that would take him away from his wife and kids in the evenings or on weekends.

It sounds like you're not very high in his list of priorities, and it sounds like that position is not enough for you to consider yourself in a relationship with him. It is pretty irrelevant to you whether his reluctance to spend time with you on evenings is because of his wife or because of feeling guilty: either way he has made his choice. I would suggest you continue as friends only.
 
CielduMatin, these are some of the ways I've tried to accommodate J.'s needs:

Spent time with him and his wife and kids on numerous occasions, even though his kids have some pretty extreme behavioral issues. I've been over to their house, had them over to mine, gone on outings with him and his kids and my younger child, etc., even though I would much prefer to see J. alone. I know that he needs anyone he dates to have a good relationship with his children, so I have tried to, even though they are very challenging kids.

Dealt with the fact that J. shows every single IM chat and email we have to his wife, even when I've told him very personal things. I know they have a need to be totally transparent with each other, so I haven't objected to it, even though it makes me uncomfortable at times, especially when he tells me that his wife was "amused" by something I had not thought of as amusing.

Rory, thanks for your input. I think you are absolutely right. I always feel that I can "fix" things, but I don't think I can do so here.
 
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Thanks for the clarification.

It is definitely sounding like mismatched needs or wants - the trick it to find out which are truly negotiable and which aren't. Hopefully he knows...
 
Yeah, unfortunately, you and J have different definitions of a romantic relationship and different resources to meet those definitions. The parents I know with difficult, challenging children - for whatever reason - have so much less time to give to anything else, even beyond what 'normal' parents with 'normal' children have. He is just not ever going to have the time that you want with a romantic partner. And neither of you is wrong. He needs to be close to home right now and you deserve someone to go out on the town with you. You just don't suit each other.

Yes, they do sound joined at the hip. Showing the wife all of your texts, etc. is rather controlling especially as it seems you tolerate that but didn't agree to it it like it. But they are probably in crisis mode a fair bit and may have evolved that way in part to cope with a difficult situation at home. At any rate, it doesn't matter as an above commentator had noted J had made his choice clear. Let him go, remember him fondly, stay friends, and look him up 20 years from now :)
 
... unfortunately, you and J have different definitions of a romantic relationship and different resources to meet those definitions....

I agree with this. For me, personally, cuddling in the basement after the kids (theirs...I don't have any) have gone to sleep sounds WAY more enticing than having to get dressed in real clothes and go out to a dinner (my boys cook better than most restaurants) and a movie/show (most of which are not my cup of tea). But I am an introvert and a homebody :p. Spending time in public places with strangers around is so draining...rather be home (mine preferably, but a friend's if necessary) in comfy clothes, relaxing and having interesting conversations with someone fascinating while having a really good beer sounds like a perfect evening to me.

Good thing for me that MrS and Dude are on my page there...although Dude had to learn that I REALLY don't like other people in my house until we are already close (his friends may be awesome people...but this is private space for me).

Everyone has a different perspective, I guess.

JaneQ
 
At present, it feels like J. and I are in a stalemate. He's made it pretty clear that he would like to be in a relationship with me, but does not want to spend any alone time with me that would take him away from his wife and kids in the evenings or on weekends. I have made it crystal clear that a big part of what I want in a relationship is someone to go out with in the evenings, dinner, movies, all that mundane but fun stuff. ...

Thoughts?

I think it's quite clear that he's not available for a relationship of the sort that you want. You can choose to become his booty call and have no romance or just have no romance and maintain the friendship.
 
It sounds like he's made his decision, and you have a choice. You can either accept the relationship as it is or give it up (as a "romantic" one). It really sucks when you see how the pieces could fall together, but don't. It sounds like you have put an awful lot of effort in, but that effort's been mostly one-way.

To me, the question you need to ask yourself is "does the relationship bring me enough pleasure to be worthwhile as is?"
 
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[...] his kids have some pretty extreme behavioral issues. [...] he needs anyone he dates to have a good relationship with his children, so I have tried to, even though they are very challenging kids.

There's your answer. Maybe his kids are "li'l bastards" because he half-asses relationships, like wanting you to come over and "cuddle in the basement." I work with children professionally, and I want to tell you when multiple children are behaving like jerks, their parents usually are jerks. Choose wisely.
 
This is sounding remarkably like the relationship I had with Leo. Three years of once a month dates with no chance of more closeness than holding hands. Its very frustrting. I bent over backwards to get my needs met and the result was that him and his wife saw me as trying to control and being selfish. They thought that I believe the world revolves around what I want.

My coping strategy was to find other people to spend time with. I went about my life and eventually he dumped me. It was not a fun time and I wished that I had left the whole thing long before, but love is a tricky one and it is what it is. You can read about it in my blog from Dec 2010 until March 2012. The part that might be helpful is what transpired with the break up (Jan 2012 until March 2012). If there is anything I can be helpful with, please ask me privately as I'm pretty sure they read my posts.
 
There's your answer. Maybe his kids are "li'l bastards" because he half-asses relationships, like wanting you to come over and "cuddle in the basement." I work with children professionally, and I want to tell you when multiple children are behaving like jerks, their parents usually are jerks. Choose wisely.

I work with a children with mental illnesses and their families and many times they have more than one child with a mental illness and the children feed off of each other, which causes even more stress for the parents. I had one child's sister escalate his behavior because she was angry that he got home from an outing just after her therapist left. He almost broke his mother's nose when he headbutted her while being so wound up. Many times these parents are doing everything right, but have been trying to get their children help and have been dealing with it for so long that they don't have the extra energy to spare for interpersonal relationships.
 
I work with a children with mental illnesses and their families and many times they have more than one child with a mental illness and the children feed off of each other, which causes even more stress for the parents. I had one child's sister escalate his behavior because she was angry that he got home from an outing just after her therapist left. He almost broke his mother's nose when he headbutted her while being so wound up. Many times these parents are doing everything right, but have been trying to get their children help and have been dealing with it for so long that they don't have the extra energy to spare for interpersonal relationships.

I'd entertain what you're saying, but this guy is piling on extra relationships while his kids are literally screaming for his attention. If your kids have unresolved issues, you don't look for additional relationships and confusion. That makes him a not nice person. I'd run.
 
I'd entertain what you're saying, but this guy is piling on extra relationships while his kids are literally screaming for his attention. If your kids have unresolved issues, you don't look for additional relationships and confusion. That makes him a not nice person. I'd run.

OP stated that he and his wife had stopped pursuing poly because of their children's issues and their need to focus on that and their family, but that things had stabilized enough that his wife is now encouraging him to be in a relationship again. He may not trust that things are stable enough to allow himself to not be there just in case. Some families have a hard time adjusting to not being in crisis mode because it has been that way for so long. Maybe he's not ready to step back from that just yet.

The best thing the OP can do is remain his friend and let him know that she cares deeply for him, but until the time that he can commit to spending at least a couple hours one night a week out with her, she isn't willing to take their friendship to the next level.
 
Regardless of the children issues, this couple clearly seem to not put any stock into the value and necessity of poly relationships developing on their own and independently. The fact that she reads all his conversations with the OP indicates that neither of them feel the OP deserves any privacy in relating with this man.

Persephone, I would just stop holding onto any hopes that this can become a romantic relationship for you.

Plunk! Into the friend zone he goes!
 
Regardless of the children issues, this couple clearly seem to not put any stock into the value and necessity of poly relationships developing on their own and independently. The fact that she reads all his conversations with the OP indicates that neither of them feel the OP deserves any privacy in relating with this man.

Persephone, I would just stop holding onto any hopes that this can become a romantic relationship for you.

Plunk! Into the friend zone he goes!

I second this!
 
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