Which way to turn?

Most times, you shouldn't look for the 'right' things to say. As someone else mentioned, just being there, showing you are a support, whatever his course, speaks volumes more than voicing your opinion or sharing words that may be more emotion-driven than reasoning right now. I think your thoughts should be shared when they are distributed as 'food for thought' but not without permission (basically meaning you would start off by asking if Karma minds you sharing your thoughts about where he is right at that moment because 'that moment' is not always the best time). This is truly Karma's battle to deal with and conquer. Unfortunately, as a partner (placement is irrelevant in this instance), you have to watch and endure that entire process and just be 'there'. It's not that Cricket is 'doing' anything to Karma. It's all about his perception of the situation and how he is dealing with it emotionally and mentally. You cannot say or do anything to change that. That only comes with self reflection on his part. As a psychologist friend told me the other night, we have to learn to let people grieve, hurt, cope in their own way (which may not be conducive to our own methods/thoughts/actions) as long as it doesn't bring harm to themselves or others. I know the current process seems harmful but it really isn't because, ultimately, you both will grow through it. (hugs)
 
I just wanted to say goodbye and thank you. It's come to my attention that my husband has invited several of our friends to join here. I no longer feel I can express the things I once felt comfortable doing. So thanks for the advice and the friendship. I may still read and comment. But my blog is done.
 
"Several" being two, and before you expressed that you didn't want them on here, for some reason...

(sigh) you're over-reacting again...
 
I can relate to this Karma. Sorry. It's difficult sometimes, for me to say things that I feel because even just my WIFE is on the site. Sometimes, I feel that I need to seek advice from the masses here, for something that I'm experiencing with my wife. Or I'm looking for an answer to some weird feeling that I'm experiencing, but it's a feeling that I feel is an over reaction, and therefore would seem silly and petty to her....but I feel like it's a big deal. Sooo....yeah....


ON THE OTHER HAND.....

Mo, these friends are friends who know your life? For my wife and I, this site, as well as facebook, gives us that anonymity (in a maner of speaking) to say the things I'm feeling and express them somewhat openly. Don't leave the site, but....post carefully. ;) I know I do sometimes. Or possibly start a new account and only let those who know you personally, know what your new sign name is.
 
"Several" being two, and before you expressed that you didn't want them on here, for some reason...

(sigh) you're over-reacting again...


Two too many. I have expressed that, over and over and over again. But we'll discuss that privately. I don't want to get into a fight on the blog. But I would appreciate you respecting my feelings instead constantly saying I am over reacting. Maybe in your eyes I am, but this is how I am feeling and if you can't sympathize I would at least appreciate you respecting them.

I can relate to this Karma. Sorry. It's difficult sometimes, for me to say things that I feel because even just my WIFE is on the site.

Exactly and if I feel that way with my husband here, how will I feel with real life friends here.

ON THE OTHER HAND.....

Mo, these friends are friends who know your life? For my wife and I, this site, as well as facebook, gives us that anonymity (in a maner of speaking) to say the things I'm feeling and express them somewhat openly. Don't leave the site, but....post carefully. ;) I know I do sometimes. Or possibly start a new account and only let those who know you personally, know what your new sign name is.


I've considered a new account name. But it wouldn't take long for these friends to figure it out. One is Panda and the other is another close friend. While they are aware of things, they don't live a poly life, though the friend is considering it. I come here to put out thoughts, emotions, questions. I never really expect a response, but when I get them, I consider what everyone has to say, because the people here do live a poly life, and some can relate to what I feel and the emotions I go through. I can't express how much that has done for me.

I love Panda. But we don't really discuss a lot of what I put on here. Partly because Karma has asked me not to, as he was sick of Panda yelling at him or Cricket, and partly because that's just not the dynamic of our relationship. I know I can go to her about anything, but on these subjects, Panda and I have very different outlooks and thoughts and a lot of the time I feel I am just defending myself instead of talking to a trusted friend. (sorry Panda if you read that and get upset, but it's how I feel).

Our other friend and I just do not have that dynamic. We don't talk about that kind of stuff. Most of our "deep" conversations have been about religion. And those have been few.

Honestly the only RL friend I discuss this stuff with is my brother. Because he is the only other person, aside from Karma, who completely gets me. I don't have to explain why I think a certain way ( since I apparently think differently than most people). My brother just gets it. Even though he doesn't get poly, he does get emotions and relationship dynamics, and does his best to put things into persepctive for me.

I think a lot of my issue with this, right now, is that I seem to constantly be defending my feelings with Karma. Suddenly, the last few weeks, according to him, I don't know how I really feel, I don't express what I am truly feeling, I am always over reacting. Dealing with that with my husband is hard enough, I don't want to add other RL friends to it.

This has always been my safe blog. No one I knew aside from Karma and Cricket, would ever see my thoughts and emotions. I could put it here unedited. And then once I had a better grap on things, thanks to the feedback I got here, if I chose to talk to my RL friends about it, I did. I feel like that privacy and safety has been taken away and I've had no say.
 
Mo,
I understand...and I think that even though you have responded to me, Karma will read it and get a better understanding of the "why" behind your request. ?I also think that your RL friends on here, will see it and more fully understand why you live the way you do, and why you may treat them or others a certain way.

So, overall, I think it is a good thing. You should still vent, and express WHY you feel the way you do. And the little things, such as the appology to Panda above) will help to make things better. Overall, if they are HONESTLY your friend, they will not chastize you for your feelings, but may actually understand, and be able to help you through them. I'm sending you some good energy. I wish I could give you a hug in person just to make you feel better. The best I can do is this: ((((((HUGS))))))

I hope your Christmas goes better, and you feel better.
 
Meh, start another name and carry on with this when you need/want to. A lot of us are running into that delema... are you kidding, I know TONS of people here, it's a public forum, they have a right to know about it and benefit from it, just as I do. If I want to ask something private I PM or go elsewhere, or have considered using another name. No biggy, I don't feel I have rights to this place. I just have to be careful what I say... I can understand saying good bye on your blog though... I'd say good bye, but I will talk to you elsewhere anyways. :D
 
I'm with RP. I don't know all the dynamics of your relationships but I do know that we all should be considerate of the feelings and requests of other people. Though, we know this is a big part of building the balance in our poly relationships, we still find ourselves having to address it more often than we should because the very concept falls through the cracks-sometimes intentionally and sometimes not. In this case, I think some of the interactions may have a lot to do with both you and your husband's mindsets. I don't know if you remember the brief discussion you and I had on a previous posting about marital viewpoints in a poly environment? To me, the situation derives from the same thing. The mindset is, "You're his wife, you feel this particular way right now but you're overreacting, therefore he's going to move forward with what he wants to do because you'll eventually see (or be convinced) that your feelings/viewpoints were unwarranted and you Were overreacting" (basically, you'll get over it) OR "he's your husband so he should interact with you/react to you in a certain way and exclude the people you request whether or not he agrees with you". He did state that this action was taken prior to you expressing you did not want to invite them into this forum though he is unclear of the reason so ... I may be 'completely' off base but that is just something that I see as being a possibility whether it's conscious or not.

It's also unhealthy that you feel like you are being verbally jumped on by anyone or you feel that you have to defend your feelings and opinions. Though, you have used this forum as a sounding board for your unfiltered thoughts and experiences, the addition of more of your circle doesn't have to be a bad thing. It would allow them to see things that you, otherwise, wouldn't say to them in person (online is very good for that) and you can better breakdown and express what you mean because you don't have to do it on the spot allowing you more time to really reflect on some of these things, thereby, allowing the other people to do the same. Then, with member feedback, the other people can also be exposed to viewpoints they may have never considered.

Either way, I hope things work out for you. I enjoy reading your postings and watching your journey. *hugs*
 
I'm baaack, did ya miss me?

I've given a lot of thought to things and after talking to Panda last night (I'll get into that in a bit), I've decided to come back to blog. Because even if she does read it, even if she is upset by anything I say, what's the worst that can happen? After last night, the worst would be her walking away, but she promised to talk things out, and I think I forgot that about her. As for my fears of other people I know reading it, ehhh, I don't like it, but I'm me, take me or leave me.


So here's the most recent developments in my ever drama filled life:

Karma and I split from out Darkon Country last night. There was a lot of disrespect, a lot of power tripping, and a loot of people just not caring about other people. The end for me was the vote to bring back someone we had voted out. He did nothing but cause drama, put people at risk physicaly, and F'ed up ppr work so bad I've spent a year fixing it and I still don't have it all straight. But he's the brother of two memebers and they want him back. SO I stated if he comes back I am gone. The vote went down with a bunch of drama, and away I went. I won't be a part of what is happening. Karma left shortly after.

He felt I was disrespected, that they would rather have a dead beat piece of shit than me. But he also realized that there are a lot of difference in what he gets out of Darkon and what they do. He's competitive. He's my gothic jock. They don't want to strive to get better, they don't have the desire to win.


So there was that.

Then Panda and Karma got into it (her husband founded the country). She said some pretty hurtful things, so I sent her an IM telling her I hoped she knew how much he loved her. We were snippy for awhile, because I thought she was being a bitch to my husband. eventualy some things were said and she asked when I thought she changed, when I thought she stopped caring about people. And I was bluntly honest. I told her I stopped confiding in her becuase I was sick of always defending myself, and even then she didn't listen to my defence. She seemed to know me better than I did, or so she acted. She made out with my husband, on my birthday, and lied to my face about it. She hid the Cricket thing from me, she was one of the many who knew before I did and she promised she would tell me, as I her, if our spouses cheated and we knew. She started expecting people close to her to act a certain way, yet wouldn't give the same respect.

She was hurt. Mainly becuase I had waited so long to tell her. But I told her I had needed to calm down before I brought it up, and when I was ready, she was in the midst of moving. I didn't want to add to that.

Eventualy our talk came down to her wondering why I continue to put up with her, if I was that upset. When I told her I loved her, and being upset didnt negate the love, she acted like I spoke another language. Apparently unconditional love really is that rare. And that really hurts, but that's a whole 'nother rant.

So we went through thinking she was the worst friend, and didn't deserve me. Little did I know what I find out a little later, would make question if she did.

Karma and I were all cuddled up and ready for bed after a day FULL of drama and I told him, I always question if they slept together, no matter how many times he says they didn't. And the bomb was dropped. He told me he went down on her once, but that was as far as it went. He told her husband, but yet again I was left in the dark. He said he thought he has told me, and that just sounds like an exscuse to me. A way to tell me without getting hit with lying.

I had a moment of breakdown.

I am SO SICK of the surprises!!!! As soon as everything starts flowing and moving forward, WHAM! I get hit wit another. When does it end!?!?!?! When does he run out of things to tell me!!!?? So I made him write them all down. No more I thought I told you. No this is what you told me, right here in writing. Your writing.
By that point I was so exhausted I just went to sleep. Cried to sleep, with his arms around me.

So this morning we talked about Karmas talk with Pandas husband. More their screaming match, over why he left the country. Somewhere in there Mr Panda told Karma that he had changed. And that it had happened when he met Cricket. Then he said I had also changed. For someone who always agreed with my being upfront about shit, he obviously had hung onto that for awhile. He basicaly made it sound like Cricket was the reason we had changed and the reason we left the country, and the reason for anything else he thought of. Well I've been saying it and I'll say it again. We have changed because of her. We're still married because of her influence in our lives.

I'm still amazed that Panda spent all that time sharing our bed, being that close with me, and all along she was holding those secrets. That really hurts. The one female I had gotten that close with, and that was what I got in return.


So yeah, a lot to process. A lot to think about and figure out what I'm going to do with.
 
Welcome back Mo. :D We missed you. Drama is part of our lives. Wish you had less, but I have my own too. So we are in good company I guess.

Good luck with yours. It doesn't seem "unfixable". Remember, everyone must compromise to make things work. ;)
 
Why is it so hard for people to accept that as we learn and grow, we change? Having a talk with Pandas husband because he thinks I've changed and not for the better.

"You have changed from the strong neutral voice of reason to the husband defender. Slowly but surely logic has escaped your larger decisions and it worries me alot. I'm not the only to notice but I'm probably the only one with the balls to say it because your my friends. I'm blessed to have such close people but they are changing and I fear for the worse"

I do defend my husband, when I think he is right. I still have no problem telling him when I think he's wrong.

Our marriage is stronger than ever. So we have changed. We don't fight all the time anymore, we sit down and talk. For us fighting is an odd form of forplay, so we do still fight ;). On occassion.

When I asked him for examples he suddenly had a call he had to go take call.


My theory? They can't support us, either because they don't have that level of intimacy and are jealous or other reasons I am oblivious to, but whatever the reason. Karma and I have grown and changed and are better people than we were. Panda and Mr. Panda can't handle the change because it throws in their face their issues, and because they don't know how to adjust to how we've changed.

I don't even know if any of that makes sense. But I'm just kind of upset that instead of supporting us, they're throwing stones.
 
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I also noticed that as my relationship with my husband improved, I am also defending him more. Because we are getting along better, we spend more time discussing our opinions and I have a better understanding of his thought process. Usually, it's not really about defending his opinion (he can usually hold his own on that front), but when something or someone hurts or mistreats him, the claws come out. I think part of this is that I am much more aware of his feelings/moods and he is also more willing to express to me when he has been "hurt".

Panda and Mr. Panda probably can't handle the changes you guys have made because they just don't understand it and have no way to comprehend it. You guys have kinda hit fast forward and made strides that take some couples a lifetime and you still have goals of further progress. The training wheels are gone and you're now on the 10 speed (I know today's bikes have around 15, my age is showing), so you can start climbing the really big hills.
 
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Thanks SN that's a great way to put it! I think in someways it falls into what Sage was talking about in her thread about people thinking she is a victim. Like I said there, I'm not a damn victim! I really fucking proud of where we are now. But because it is so foreign to some people, they can only make sense of it by thinking I am his puppet on a string. Which if they knew my husband at all, would know that is one of his biggest turn offs. He likes being stood up to.
 
Karma finaly got an example out of Mr Panda. When Panda first moved to NC to be with him, she and Karma got into a huge fight about somethings he had said. Thing is what he said was true. He said it harshly and in almost uncalled for way, but it was the truth. So they got the point of her sobbing to Mr Panda while he was at work and had no idea what was going on. He called me and when I explained, he seemed to agree with me. He went home talked her into talking to me ( I told him I didnt think it would do much good as I agreed with Karma, but he felt it would help her see she was be irrational). That was one of our only fights. She did not want to hear what I had to say, because I wasnt telling her that Karma was wrong and an ass and deserved the wrath of hell. All this time Mr Panda had agreed with us.

So his example to Karma, is that Mr Panda talked Panda down and got her to see where she was wrong, and I didnt do that with Karma. WTF. 1. I did get Karma to see that how he made his point was cruel. The point was still correct and needed to be made, but he went about it in a cruel way. 2. I'm his wife, not his brain washer. It is not my job to tell him he's wrong and get him to comprmise his beliefs, especialy not when I don't think he's wrong! I try hard to NEVER impose on people like that. We are all entitled to our beliefs and opinions. I may disagree with you, and give you my take on things, but I still have no right to tell you your feelings are wrong. But apparently because I didn't compromise my own beliefs and side with Panda, I am weak and a puppet on my husbands strings.

His other example was that I should have never made leaving the Darkon country an ultimatum. Again WTF!

I told them I would not be a part of a country that included this individual, but as much as it was my right to leave, it was their right to choose to vote him back in. They did, and I left. Mr Panda said he never knew me to put that type of pressure on others. Well, I've never been put in a situation where I had to make that choice while knowing him.

I am usualy a pretty on the fence person when it comes to these types of things. I'm a good mediator for my friends because I can see both sides. But in those times, where I feel very strongly and deeply for my opinion or belief, I will take a side. As I did with the vote. I will not have my name associated with the filth that he brings. That is a compromise I will not make.

But in Mr Pandas eyes, I was only taking Karmas side and putting people in a situation to choose.

Maybe I did put them in a place to choose. Because they should open their eyes and see him for what he is. They didn't. They chose him over someone who has done nothing but give to them. That hurts. I spent 3 years spending my free time working on shit for that country. Nights spent sewing into the wee hours so they all had uniforms or covers for their weapons.

And my thanks was being told I am weak, malible puppet, who can no longer think for herself, and they'd rather have worthless filth than me.


I'm begining to wonder if the relationship with Panda and Mr Panda is salvagable, or if I even want to try.
 
I'm totally the wrong person to give advice to you or Karma on this particular topic. I'm shamelessly biased and probably being unfair because the people I care about were treated badly.

I never clicked with Panda, never liked her, never trusted her. I have a hard time trusting women, and it makes it harder that her personality and mine are...not very well suited to each other.

I feel like their actions in this whole thing completely disrespected everything you and Karma have put into making the country work while Panda and Mr. Panda are away. Karma was asked to take charge for the time being, from what I understand. You've been the country's mom. To turn around and treat you both that way, when you'd both taken on huge burdens and lots of stress for the country...

It pissed me off, and made me decide that a friendship with Panda and Mr. Panda isn't something I want to try to cultivate in my life - not if this is how they treat their friends over something like a difference in opinion of how a country that they aren't fighting for on a regular basis should be run.
Neither of them are here to run things. The way they run things has not brought in many new members, and it hasn't exactly galvanized the current ones into more regular action.

Honestly, I see a lot of the sudden friction as being a reflection of the issues the two of them have with each other and with themselves.

I'm sorry things have gotten so rough, though. I know once you guys really valued this friendship. Sometimes, friends just outgrow each other, or reach periods when other parts of their lives make it necessary to put other relationships on hold.

Perhaps the new distance will be the room everyone needs to keep growing, and things will be easier after the growing pains pass.
 
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I'm totally the wrong person to give advice to you or Karma on this particular topic. I'm shamelessly biased and probably being unfair because the people I care about were treated badly.
Doubtful:)

I never clicked with Panda, never liked her, never trusted her. I have a hard time trusting women, and it makes it harder that her personality and mine are...not very well suited to each other.
I've never completely trusted her either. She never gave me reason too. And then to do the things she did with Karma and lie to my fucking face about it, I lost what little I had then and there. At least when confronted, you were straight up honest.
I feel like their actions in this whole thing completely disrespected everything you and Karma have put into making the country work while Panda and Mr. Panda are away. Karma was asked to take charge for the time being, from what I understand. You've been the country's mom. To turn around and treat you both that way, when you'd both taken on huge burdens and lots of stress for the country...
Yeah, well that's why we left.
It pissed me off, and made me decide that a friendship with Panda and Mr. Panda isn't something I want to try to cultivate in my life - not if this is how they treat their friends over something like a difference in opinion of how a country that they aren't fighting for on a regular basis should be run.
Neither of them are here to run things. The way they run things has not brought in many new members, and it hasn't exactly galvanized the current ones into more regular action.
And a lot of people have told them that. They won't lsiten and will quickly see the fall of what was once a great thing. There is an original member talking about coming back from states away to fight beside Karma and show them how he feels about said disrespect. I usualy don't go out to Darkon, I do my thing behind the scenes, but if he does come, I may show up for that.
Honestly, I see a lot of the sudden friction as being a reflection of the issues the two of them have with each other and with themselves.
That. Times billions. So many others have seen the same and said the same. And it's sad. I've tried so hard to help them, to tell them to not band aid their issues, fix them. But instead they point fingers and throw stones.
I'm sorry things have gotten so rough, though. I know once you guys really valued this friendship. Sometimes, friends just outgrow each other, or reach periods when other parts of their lives make it necessary to put other relationships on hold.
Yeah, I know all to well how that happens. I'm saddened by it, but honesty I've seen it coming for awhile.
Perhaps the new distance will be the room everyone needs to keep growing, and things will be easier after the growing pains pass.

One can hope. I lost what little bit I had left for them when Panda started bad mouthing Karma. After all the hard fucking work he has put in to getting his head straight and learning what emotions are and how to handle them and she acted like a bitch! Yelling at him for not understanding something, that he told her he didn't understand and asked her to explain. I saw red after that.

I do hold out hope. More Karmas sake than my own. I've already made peace with the bullshit and it ending. I don't like having toxic people in my life. We discussed my issues with her the other night and she told me she felt like a horrible friend and she didn't deserve me, but she's "an abrassive cunt and it won't change". Well yeah with that attitude it won't. Becuase I know inside that isn't all she is. That's her defence, not who she is. And if we've desolved to her using this attitude with me, well, then I guess I had my answer. If that's the Panda I get, mixed with the trust that has already been lost, I don't know what is left there to save.
 
I am done with this.

I have worked so hard for this happiness. I'm not done working yet - not by a long shot - but you two are responsible for me being where I am right now.

And they want to throw stones at you two? Out of JEALOUSY?! Out of anger for you giving me the strength to rise above all of this? Out of me having something that they either want or fear, because they either want the same or are too weak to deal with it?

This is not how someone who really cares for me would act. I would never do this do them, were the roles reversed. I would be happy for them.

Sin is right. "It's time to end this sick mockery of what we worked and bled to create." He may have just been talking about the country...

... but I'm not.
 
I am done with this.

I have worked so hard for this happiness. I'm not done working yet - not by a long shot - but you two are responsible for me being where I am right now.

And they want to throw stones at you two? Out of JEALOUSY?! Out of anger for you giving me the strength to rise above all of this? Out of me having something that they either want or fear, because they either want the same or are too weak to deal with it?

This is not how someone who really cares for me would act. I would never do this do them, were the roles reversed. I would be happy for them.

Sin is right. "It's time to end this sick mockery of what we worked and bled to create." He may have just been talking about the country...

... but I'm not.
I feel your pain right this moment....I really do:(
 
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