HPV and promiscuity

sparklepop

New member
Hi guys,

I went on a date last night with a girl who told me that she has HPV1. I have to confess that I am not overly knowledgable about it and so, whilst doing my own research online, I wanted to come and ask for personal experiences and viewpoints of people here.

I'm very cautious about STIs, especially because I have a primary partner and want to consider her health as well as my own. I have only slept with two other women during our two year relationship and saw their most recent test results before sleeping with them.

The girl I went on a date with has quite a colourful past and present. She used to be a stripper, a member of a Harem, she told me that she used to make out with her sister and masturbate in the same room as her when they were teenagers, she has a husband and other partners and attends orgies where she says she sleeps with people the second time she's met them.

So aside from the HPV situation, there is the promiscuity issue. Of course, I know that some people who sleep around are even more strict about getting tested than some who hardly have any partners. The problem is that I have always had long-term mostly monogamous relationships in the past - I've only slept with 7 people at the age of 28 and I'm definitely not ashamed of that fact! But this can make me squeamish and judgmental about those who are less... fussy as fuck? ;)

I'm trying to make a judgement call without being judgmental, which I don't feel is fair on her. I spoke to my GF about it this morning and she was very tense about the conversation. She reminded me that she met a guy last year who she cut the cord with immediately because he had the Herpes virus. However, she did also date a guy more recently who admitted he slept with other casual partners without protection. She always used a condom with him, but didn't barrier herself when he performed oral sex on her. We both felt uneasy about his practices with other women, but didn't really know where to draw the line.

Do you have a guideline about certain viruses? How do you approach safe sex in your relationship? Where do you think the balance lies between being responsible without being over-cautious?

Just to add - please, please, please don't mistake my post to mean that I feel you are promiscuous if you have HPV, or any other virus. Or that I am saying promiscuity is bad. i'm here because promiscuity makes me concerned for my health and i *don't* want to be judgmental. It is difficult to ask this question without negative connotations being taken. The promiscuity and STI issues I'm trying to raise are two separate things.
 
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Statistically, something like 80% of sexually active adults have (or are carriers for) HPV. I don't want to say that it's not a big deal because it can cause issues, but it's certainly not uncommon. There's not even an HPV test for men. I myself have it, and I've only ever had unprotected sex with long term partners (like my husband, and various monogamous boyfriends) who I trusted to be safe with other people, so it's a mystery. I'm on board with other STIs, like Herpes, HIV and Hep C, being deal breakers, but I also would have avoided the casual sex without condoms guy. Those are the type who in my experience are most likely to "forget" to use them or will whine about how they don't feel as good. We're not in high school. That's not acceptable from an adult and makes me wonder if he gives any thought to me as more than a vagina if he's so willing to put me at risk.

As for the girl, it almost sounds like you're more squicked out by her overall level of experience and activities (OMG stripper!!) than the actual amount of sex she's had. So what if she sleeps with people the second time she's met them? What you fail to mention is whether or not she's being safe. There is a risk for STIs every single time anyone has sex - if they're actively attempting to mitigate those risks and preserve the health and well being of everyone involved, that's the important part.

You have nothing to be ashamed of as far as your number, but you are judging this girl. You call her perceived promiscuity an issue and you're ready to write her off for "sleeping around". Experience is a good thing, especially when it comes to sex. You also underestimate how difficult it is to find other poly people in this judgy, monogamous world. If you like this girl, don't write her off for her "colourful" behavior.

EDIT - Though I don't blame you for being a little skeezed by the incest. I have a sister. We never made out, because that's gross. The masturbation is pretty common for teenagers who have to share a room, and college roommates. just ask Dear Prudie - http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...criminal_relatives_and_friendly_affairs_.html
 
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Her promiscuity is only an issue for you. Have you and your wife had recent STD results?
 
Bad decision making? Or just adventurous?

Regarding the STI question, you will have to do your own risk analysis and determine what risks you are willing to take and what you are not willing to risk. That is a very personal decision. But please, base your decision on facts and not stigma.

Herpes is unpleasant and can have some very serious consequences for pregnant women and fetuses. You may break out in embarrasing places. You may have to take relatively inexpensive suppressive drugs that have few side effects and work well for most people. There is an embarrassing stigma. However, at least in the United States, most sexually active people have either been infected or exposed to HSV1 or HSV2. (FYI, did you know that chicken pox is part of the herpes 'family'. Shingles too.) Ultimately, herpes is an unpleasant, embarrassing skin disease that will not kill you.

HPV is probably as prevalent as herpes in sexually active people. I read somewhere that if you have had 5 sexual partners in your lifetime, then, statistically, you've been exposed or infected with an HPV strain. THe vast majority of HPV strains do absolutely nothing - no warts, no cancers. Some do cause genital warts - again embarrasing, unpleasant skin condition. Others can cause abnormal cells to grow - most commonly in the cervix of women. These are the 'high risk' HPV strains and it is one of these that I have. This is serious and not to be taken lightly. I know women killed by cervical cancer. However, the risk is low that actual cancer will develop, even if one has abnormal cells (as I do presently). So if one gets regular pap smears and monitors the situation, the likelihood of a good outcome - no cancer or less good - cancer but caught early - is much higher.

In contrast, syphilis, left untreated, can destroy the brain. HIV is fatal (I know current treatments greatly help with longevity and quality of life but it is still a fatal disease). Gonorrhea can destroy young women's fertility. The hepatitis strains have all kinds of very serious health impacts, up to organ failure and needing transpants.

I decided that I will not have sex with someone with the above infections, even with barriers. Barriers do protect really well against these diseases transmitted via fluid exposure. This is where I personally draw my risk line. And many of these diseases are developing drug resistance.

It frustrates me that people reject out of hand folks who do the responsible thing and inform partners of herpes or HPV. (I do acknowledge that everyone has this right.) It is very likely that both you and your partner were exposed to HPV or herpes or both by direct or indirect sexual contact with the guy who didn't use barriers with casual partners, and who didn't use barriers for oral sex with your partner. Your partner might as well slept with the man with herpes - it would have been less risky. You had a known situation with someone willing to be honest and presumably take appropriate caution (barriers, be on suppressive drugs, monitor himself for outbreaks and refrain from sex during outbreaks). Instead the person who takes unknown risks with his health and everyone he has sex with and everyone his partners have sex with gets rewarded. It is this behavior - which I see *everywhere* - that encourages people to lie about STI status. Sparkle, this is not directed just at you or your partner. It just frustrates me so much.

As for the wild child you went out on a date with? Is her sexual history a story of bad decision making? Sometimes promiscuity and other behaviors can indicate that someone consistently makes poor decisions. But other times, it just means they made decisions differently than you would have but are fine in making good decisions for themselves. They are just more adventuresome, relaxed, open to new experiences, whatever. I would think that is the crux of the decision you need to make about her. Adventuresome? Or bad decison maker?

And I am squicked by the incest too.
 
Hi tree,

Thank you for your response.

It's really helpful to hear what the deal breakers are for you. I would have also avoided sex with no condom guy - and yes, of course, he used to whinge to her about having to use one with her.

It's not so much that she'll sleep with people the second time she's met them, but that with women, this will mean unprotected sex. Sometimes she'll sleep with strangers. With men, it's a condom, but unprotected fingers and oral. I think that what I am feeling is that the general picture - unhealthy incest relationship (they had threesomes with men together too, but they would not have sex with each other), stripper, Harem (she met a rich old guy who paid her to live with and have sex with him), copious casual sex partners, etc. she said that her general rule of thumb is not to sleep with people she gets a bad feeling about and to sleep with people she gets a gut feeling are clean.

I do know that I am being judgmental - that's why I'm here, to have some sense knocked into me where I am failing. I don't want to be judgmental - I do want to be sensible. My GFs reaction also gave me pause - she feels that this girl is more of a high-risk case than someone who, say, just has one parter who is monogamous to them.

So are we generally saying that as long as we use dental dams and gloves with women, we're being safe? As long as we see their test results, there's no need for all the latex? :)
 
OMG OMG incest again! How DARE anyone be "squicked" (i love that word, i could say it all day and not lose the meaning to the sound of it) by two people expressing LOVE for each other! Who cares what OTHER people do behind closed doors, as long as its consensual! Stop bringing YOUR ISSUES into OTHER THREADS. Omg, people, please. Stop ATTACKING.

Besides, two sisters masturbating and making out together is HAWT, right? Especially if one of them is a stripper...
 
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Her promiscuity is only an issue for you. Have you and your wife had recent STD results?

Her promiscuity is an issue for me - that's precisely why I'm here. To learn, think and avoid being judgmental. Myself and my girlfriend are tested every six months, or after each secondary relationship ends and are clear.
 
Personally I don't think that gloves or dental dams are necessary. I wouldn't agree to that. My agreements just involve condoms for anal and vaginal sex and regular std tests.
 
I'm curious who here reading this actually USES gloves and dental dams. For all the talk about them (throughout my experience and observation) i have never met a single person who says, "gee i'd really like to eat your pussy and stick my fingers in your anus, just a sec let me put on my gloves and grab a dental dam or two". In fact, the only times i've heard of people giving blow jobs on a penis with a condom (other than "escorts") is when you're getting ready to fuck and it needs "help". I even talked about this with my physician and they didn't disagree or try to qualify it for me (this doctor specializes in an area of medicine that sees lots of testing for STD's and other conditions associated with sex and reproduction).
 
The gender of her sexual partners is completely irrelevant - sex with women doesn't HAVE mean unprotected, that's just her choice. This girl is clearly not doing anything to mitigate her risks other than, basically, hoping for the best. I don't think there's a single thing wrong with calling that a deal breaker. It's reckless at best. To answer opalescent, it's pretty clear that she just makes bad decisions.

That said, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the other behaviors you mentioned. If some old rich dude offered to pay me for sex I'd do it in a New York minute. Stripping is just a job. Hugh Hefner routinely dates (and has group sex) with siblings. I don't know many men who don't have a twin fantasy. Just because you wouldn't do these things or don't approve of them, it doesn't make them inherently wrong. The people who make the choice to have many casual sex partners but do it SAFELY with a degree of intelligence, more power to them. Your perception of "copious" might be what I would call "a few", based on our life experiences. It doesn't make her a bad person to like sex and spread joy to the masses, it's being reckless about it that's the real issue.

And BoringGuy - dude, I didn't say that incest is inherently wrong either. I said it squicks ME out. I would never do it because *I* think it's gross. Showing affection and love for my sister does not mean I stick my tongue down her throat. Do I agree with SCIENCE that the progeny of incestuous unions often results in health issues and a generally weakened gene pool? YES. For proof look at European royalty over the last few centuries. But whatever consensual adults decide to do is cool with me as long as no one is getting hurt.

EDIT - I'm also in total agreement that gloves are overkill. Wash your hands and keep them out of your mouth. No one wants to date a germophobe.
 
Well personally i think incest should squick EVERYONE out, but that's just me. I'm a child-free only-child and i've never been diddled by my relatives, so maybe i'm missing out on something great, but i will never know, thanks.

I can't believe you thought i was serious. Seriously?
 
Dan Savage also get routinely called out for his belief that incest is wrong and gross. He's gay so clearly he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
 
In all honesty, it wouldn't be the first time I got called judgmental for being like "ew incest".


If someone calls me "judgmental" for being all "ew incest", i say, "yes, thank you". If you are going to be judgmental about one thing only ever, then incest is an excellent choice of topic for that.

And to all the people reading who are thinking, "but, but - OTHER CULTURES do it!" If other cultures jumped off a cliff, would you do it too? Other Cultures also force women to marry their rapists and make small children work in sweat shops. Maybe those things are ok because uptight Westerners just don't "get" Other Cultures.:rolleyes:
 
We require condoms with any partners outside of our agreed upon trio that is fluid bonded.
I wouldn't have sex with someone who was so.... open with their body myself. I don't believe GG would either but Maca might.

Of course, I also won't have sex with someone until I've known them for at least a year as a friend. Shrug-I'm picky.

HPV and Herpes aren't big concerns in my book-I have herpes, got it at 15 from my daughters father.
On the other hand, I am very obnoxious about being careful with that. In 15 years, Maca hasn't gotten it and GG hasn't in 18 years of being sexually involved and fluid bonded.
 
We have a chart I put together with different barrier requirements for different STIs, that means some activities are off the table period when dating people with certain STI's. Some will require gloves or other barriers, or we can choose to not do the activity. I don't mind having gloves used on me, or using gloves. I've seen people in the community here have much looser restrictions on what they do (generally just condoms for sex) to stricter than I have.

I don't worry specifically about HPV except for the genital warts strains. I get pap smears and go to the dentist regularly, so if anything starts growing it should be caught early, and from everything I've read and been told by my doctors, anything cancerous from HPV strains grows very slowly. edit: when I specifically asked if I should get more frequent pap smears because I had multiple partners, I was told no.

I mitigate risks by dating people who get tested regularly, who also date people who get tested regularly. I tend to stop using barriers for oral sex after a period of time with partners if they aren't having casual encounters and just in steady relationships, just like I will start using them again if they start doing so (who am I fooling, now that they dont make non lubed condoms without reservoir tips, that just means no oral sex for the guys)

Our agreements are subject to change, existing relationships might easily be negotiated down to less barriers with time and trust even with some STI's I'd prefer to never get, but having it all written down in black and white can help keep the "but I really like this person" stuff from screwing with common sense and objectivity (and its up to each person to decide for themselves where that line is).
 
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It's not so much that she'll sleep with people the second time she's met them, but that with women, this will mean unprotected sex.

I know very few women who use barriers for casual sex with other women, for the record. I'm all in favor of dental dams and gloves if that's what you need to be comfortable, but transmission rates of STIs for lesbian sex acts are, objectively, really low. It's no different than her "unprotected fingers and oral" policy with men -- roughly the same risks there. I just feel like some people think that there should be equivalent policies -- you use latex for men, so surely you should for women too -- without objectively considering that the acts involved are different.

My GFs reaction also gave me pause - she feels that this girl is more of a high-risk case than someone who, say, just has one parter who is monogamous to them.

Your gf is absolutely right. I'm surprised it would give you pause, when it just seems obvious that someone in a mono relationship, if both partners have been tested, is basically nil risk, whereas someone who's not monogamous has higher risk. And yeah, this girl, who sleeps with many people, will have higher risk than someone who only sleeps with a handful of people that they know well.

For myself, I've chosen what most would consider to be a fairly high degree of risk. I'm fluid bonded with a guy who's also fluid bonded with a full-service escort. She uses condoms for PIV/PIA with everyone but him, but engages in unprotected oral and manual sex, and he and I also both have unprotected oral and manual sex with other partners, some serious, some casual.

I spent a couple of months thinking hard about the decision to be fluid bonded with him. I did a LOT of reading about transmission rates. Basically, what I came to was very similar to what Opal laid out above.

I was terrified of the life-long, potentially deadly diseases... and yet oral transmission of those is extremely, extremely low if it's even possible, Scientists who have been studying this for decades still aren't sure if oral transmission of HIV and Hep can actually occur at all if your mouth isn't bleeding. And as for those diseases when it comes to PIV/PIA, condoms are essentially completely effective against them if you use them consistently and correctly.

I had to look at studies like that over and over before the rational part of my brain was able to overcome the scared part and say "Look, yes, there may technically be a risk for these extremely dangerous things... but it's infinitesimal. Basing any decisions on that is just silly."

That left things that were curable if you catch them early enough -- and we all get tested regularly, so no worries there -- and things that are lifelong but merely inconveniencing, such as HPV and HSV. I've already had a case of the type of HPV that causes genital warts (I was 18 at the time, had only had a handful of partners), which are easily treatable, and I've been vaccinated against the types that cause cancer.

So, in the end, it was down to just worrying about HSV. HSV can be asymptomatic and can be transmitted by contact with the skin around the genitals, meaning condoms aren't 100% against it. I'm not blase about it -- I'd really rather NOT get HSV -- but if it happens it will not be the end of my world.

I expect my partners to follow their gut, much as you describe the woman in question doing, to disclose ANY relevant information, just as you describe her doing, and to use condoms for the high risk activities, just as you describe her doing. So, would I sleep with her if I really liked her? Absolutely.

But my risk tolerance doesn't have to be your risk tolerance! If you're not comfortable with her lifestyle, you'll rest easier NOT sleeping with her. There are other fish in the sea.
 
If I fuck a thousand guys a month, and get tested every month for stds, I am safer than a monogamous couple who have never had an std test. How safe you are depends on how regularly you get tested. If everyone shifted their focus from avoiding an std altogether to getting any stds they contract diagnosed quickly, I suspect we would have less std rates.

To the OP: use condoms for sex, get std tests regularly. Simple.
 
If I fuck a thousand guys a month, and get tested every month for stds, I am safer than a monogamous couple who have never had an std test. How safe you are depends on how regularly you get tested. If everyone shifted their focus from avoiding an std altogether to getting any stds they contract diagnosed quickly, I suspect we would have less std rates.

To the OP: use condoms for sex, get std tests regularly. Simple.

I don't think this makes sense. A monogamous couple is completely safe from anything that one of them didn't already have. And since it's extremely unlikely that, between the two of them, they have every STI known to man, if any at all, without ever having had any recognizable symptoms, that means they'd be safe from most, possibly all, STIs. They might be less informed than you in your hypothetical scenario, and obviously they ought to get tested just in case. But to say they'd be less safe, just, no.

Partner volume has a large impact on your exposure to STIs, and someone with many partners has more exposure, that's just common sense. Some STIs that you can catch even with perfect condom use, namely HPV or HSV, are not curable, so if you consider those risks unacceptable, you should be more picky about how many people you sleep with, and how many people they sleep with, while ALSO expecting regular testing all around. No need for it to be an either/or thing. If you're really looking at all the elements of what "risk" means to you, it's a nuanced thing. Not simple at all, even if the ultimate decision you end up making is.
 
This monogamous coupe, this guy at least, has had prior partners. The people who are most likely to hoard an STD are those who think their holier than thou attitude to sex will protect them.
 
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