Different Ways of Defining Sex: Advice?

caichan

New member
So, when we added The Boy, it occurred to me that he probably didn't have the same definitions of sex floating around in his head. This is not surprising. He was joining a long-established F-F couple who had previously had a fully open BDSM quad with a het couple; he was raised fundamentalist Christian. We planned ahead for this. We talked about how each of us define sex. We've been moving at a glacial pace, letting him take as much time as he needs to absorb each step (and, as is expected, the emotional steps have previously been much more complicated than the sexual ones). Mostly, we make out and (as much as I hate the term) dry hump.

Then, he got brave and mischevious enough to explore the lovely and I's toy box, and discovered that I'd bought condoms as a "just in case," and his head kind of exploded.

Apparently, to him this is all fooling around. To me, since we are in an incredibly intimate position, frequently wearing nothing more than underthings, and I'm having orgasms, that counts as sex. We'd actually discussed that. Using those exact words. But he didn't think of it as sex until he realized that I was serious enough to buy condoms.

*headdesk*

I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has had the experience of re-educating a partner who has a culturally ingrained view of sex that you left behind so long ago that you've mostly forgotten it. Also, I probably just need some hugs, because I love the boy like crazy, but he's driving me crazier than I already am at this speed.
 
Honestly, "fooling around" isn't sex to me either. Touching, kissing, hand jobs, and dry humping are just not sex in my head or my heart. Which lead to no amount of trouble with Runic Wolf in the beginning. Hell, I don't consider blow jobs to be sex unless you're 69ing. Sex in my head involves both partners being equal participants in providing pleasure. And no, I don't consider masturbation sex either. That stuff is foreplay, foreplay isn't sex. Sex is what you have after foreplay. Does that mean I don't believe you need to be safe during foreplay, ofcourse not. But don't feel that you need to educate your boy out of his beliefs. They aren't necessarily wrong. You just need to be considerate of his definitions as well as your own.

I enjoy BDSM myself and don't consider that sex either, though I do orgasm during some of the things we do.
 
Having grown up in the evangelical christian church, I remember there being some interesting definitions of sex and virginity. Different people had different ideas. Some people were very orthodox saying anything "more" than french kissing was essentially sex in the sense that it made you impure. Some felt that kissing and everything else should take place only after marriage. Then there were others who said that as long as you didn't do penis in vagina sex, the rest was okay and you were still a virgin. So, according to them, anal, oral and everything else wasn't sex.

Obviously, people should define sex as they see it and want it to happen. For me, spanking is sex. Of course, I know that not everyone is going to feel the same. Ultimately, we all have to decide, for us, what is sex? And I'm sure being partnered it really helps to know each other's definitions and have some common ground in what it is you see as being sex.

is the issue with the boy that he is not yet ready to parttake in certain acts? I'm unclear as to what the actual issue is.
 
Wow, sex to Mono starts with kissing. You have the desire, you kiss, its sex.

When I was in the church as a kid we used to have a pretty liberal view of what sex was. Basically if it could make you pregnant then this was sex.
 
Even though I'm all for everybody defining sex for themselves, this is sort of an emotional topic for me. I guess I'm fine with any definition as long as it comes from questioning your internalised beliefs and seeing how you really feel about it. What I'm not fine with is that often anything besides man-woman intercourse is labeled non-sex and less than.

Kissing alone isn't sex for me, anything more than that is already in the grey area of sexual action. Hand jobs are most definitely definitely sex for me, and so is mutual masturbation. Masturbation is sex, too, just not with another person. And BDSM stuff goes either into sexual action or sex category, depending on what it's like and how it feels (and yes, the lines are kind of blurry and, in the end, not very relevant).
 
As I recall, there is at least one other thread here in which many of us expressed what we think sex is or isn't. I think the title was "Is Masturbation Sex?" and it was pretty long.

But the OP here is looking for some specific feedback:
I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has had the experience of re-educating a partner who has a culturally ingrained view of sex that you left behind so long ago that you've mostly forgotten it. Also, I probably just need some hugs, because I love the boy like crazy, but he's driving me crazier than I already am at this speed.

I only asked about the bf's idea that "fooling around" isn't sex to get clarification so I could better answer the OP. I think it's an interesting question about educating someone who has a vastly different cultural view of sex. I'm still thinking about my response, but thought I'd mention it now before the thread goes too far afield.

So, Caichan, here are some (((((HUGS))))) in the meantime.
 
Last edited:
I believe that I stated that in my experience it isn't necessary to re-educate a partner that their views of sex are wrong.

In the early days of our quad, there were some fights between Runic Wolf and myself over definitions. I already felt like I was making more than my fair of concessions; Pretty Lady and I are both masochists and Wendigo's superlong claws really brought that out in me during sex, but Pretty Lady asked that we not participate in any BDSM with each other in her presence and that Wendigo and I cut back on our use of the "L" word (NRE was a bit out of control in the beginning). As winter fell, one of our gaming friends found out his wife was cheating on him and refused to go home after game, cutting into the already limited amount of time that Wendigo and I had to reconnect physically and we were generally pretty worked up and ready to explode from our online conversations and from discretely petting each other under the game table on and off. (Our friends didn't know about us and most still don't.) So the later it got, the more desperate we got to get our hands on each other and we began formulating a plan; we'd find a spot on the country road between our houses and park behind the snow bank. For a few weeks, I'd talk to him and give him a hand job while driving to a safe spot, then we'd park and have sex and I'd drop him off at home. All while Runic Wolf was getting our friend to leave. Sometimes I'd come home and he'd still be there. One morning while I was taking a shower, Runic Wolf comes in and tells me he doesn't want me having sex with Wendigo in the car anymore. I agree, in part, because I don't want to risk our relationship further (Before I realized my feeling for Wendigo, I'd lied by omission and gotten caught, so we were still rebuilding trust). Still it was easy for me not to have sex with Wendigo in the car, because I could still give him blow jobs and hand jobs (or so I thought). But a few weeks after I'd agreed to stop having sex with him in the car, Runic Wolf was accusing me of lying to him about it. When we both calmed down, we realized our definitions of sex were different. For Runic Wolf, sex starts in that grey area that I consider foreplay; and is definitely when one or more person's genitals are exposed. We argued semantics for a little bit and then I asked him what was really at the root of it. He said that he didn't like driving to work the next morning with the car smelling like "sex" (arousal and sometimes cum). So we renegotiated over time. I'd stop having "sex" (by either definition) in the car as long as we arranged to not be sending Wendigo home more sexually frustrated than when he'd arrived at our house. Sometimes that meant that Wendigo and I didn't get to fool around at all that night, sometimes it meant hard capping when people left after game, and sometimes it meant staying up waay later than we intended, but we got though it w/o either of us having to change our definitions of sex AND by being respectful of each other's definitions.
 
What is hard capping and how does it relate to sex? (Be it sex of the digital, oral or PIV-kind.)
 
caichan,

How old or young is the boy? What are your ages? When you say his head kind of exploded at the sight of condoms you mean he freaked out in a negative way?
 
A hard cap is an absolute. Say we get done with game at 9, we don't mind if people want to stick around until 11-11:30, but our hard carp - the absolute latest we want company sticking around to is midnight. Because our gaming friends don't (and can't) know about our relationship beyond cuddle buddies, it was important to establish a hard cap of you guys absolutely HAVE to go home by midnight so we can get Wendigo home (we pick him up and take him home most of the time) and we can get to bed at a decent time. Basically, we have a hard cap of time our friends can stay so that we can fool around or have sex after everyone leaves and still get Wendigo home by 3:30 am.
 
Last edited:
I didn`t know what 'hard capping' was either.

Learn something new everyday !

I think most people`s definitions are based on experiences, rather then what they`ve been taught. Even if you are taught one thing, but experience told you another, then you have both your definition and your working theory.
So each experience a person has, when the body/brain sends that 'omg' signal that a change is occuring,and they realize it`s becoming actual sex..... that tends to implant in the brain, and become the standard people measure by.

When we connect with someone physically, there are all kinds of things that people naturally have to compromise on. I think sex can be a very good measurement on how much people willingly compromise, adjust, exhibit patience, and learn each other. What happens there, will bleed over elsewhere. Both good and bad.
 
Honestly, "fooling around" isn't sex to me either. Touching, kissing, hand jobs, and dry humping are just not sex in my head or my heart. ... But don't feel that you need to educate your boy out of his beliefs. They aren't necessarily wrong. You just need to be considerate of his definitions as well as your own.

This. If I were in his place and that's all that had happened, I'd say we hadn't had sex. If that were to continue for any length of time, I'd also conclude that there wasn't any real interest and walk on.

So I think his definitions are just fine for him and he doesn't need to be "educated" to change them.
 
Even though I'm all for everybody defining sex for themselves, this is sort of an emotional topic for me. I guess I'm fine with any definition as long as it comes from questioning your internalised beliefs and seeing how you really feel about it. What I'm not fine with is that often anything besides man-woman intercourse is labeled non-sex and less than.

This also drives me crazy. Man-woman intercourse is not the only sex even though many people have that in their heads as the 'default'. Everyone should question, think about and be able to talk about their definitions.

So, when we added The Boy, it occurred to me that he probably didn't have the same definitions of sex floating around in his head. This is not surprising. He was joining a long-established F-F couple who had previously had a fully open BDSM quad with a het couple; he was raised fundamentalist Christian. We planned ahead for this. We talked about how each of us define sex. We've been moving at a glacial pace, letting him take as much time as he needs to absorb each step (and, as is expected, the emotional steps have previously been much more complicated than the sexual ones). Mostly, we make out and (as much as I hate the term) dry hump.

Then, he got brave and mischevious enough to explore the lovely and I's toy box, and discovered that I'd bought condoms as a "just in case," and his head kind of exploded.

Apparently, to him this is all fooling around. To me, since we are in an incredibly intimate position, frequently wearing nothing more than underthings, and I'm having orgasms, that counts as sex. We'd actually discussed that. Using those exact words. But he didn't think of it as sex until he realized that I was serious enough to buy condoms.

I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has had the experience of re-educating a partner who has a culturally ingrained view of sex that you left behind so long ago that you've mostly forgotten it. Also, I probably just need some hugs, because I love the boy like crazy, but he's driving me crazier than I already am at this speed.

I don't know if you need to 'educate' him. But I would be concerned about how his ideas of sex impact his perceptions of you, the F-F couple. Does he see your F-F relationship as just 'fooling around'? Because by his definition, two women literally cannot have sex. Sex requires a actual live penis attached to a actual live man. It seems that he may - perhaps unconsciously - not give full weight or respect to a F-F relationship. I would be concerned about this possibility if I were in your shoes. Note, I am not saying this is true of everyone who holds this concept of what is sex. People hold contradictory ideas in their heads all the time. However, it is the logical outcome of that definition. And it makes gay sex (TWO penises attached to TWO live actual men) even more disturbing.

If I were in his place and that's all that had happened, I'd say we hadn't had sex. If that were to continue for any length of time, I'd also conclude that there wasn't any real interest and walk on.

So I think his definitions are just fine for him and he doesn't need to be "educated" to change them.

I agree with AT that educating him is not necessary. Just be yourselves and talk to him, if he wants, about what you think sex is. Basically continue doing what you were doing - just more of it. Hopefully that will be enough to make him evaluate his own ideas. Or not. But that is not under your control. He's the one who has to do the thinking - and he may not, or decide his definitions are just fine. You're going to have be patient, and ultimately you will have to decide if you want to put up with his process (or lack thereof from your point of view).

But I have to circle back to sex=PIV intercourse issue. If it leads (or might lead) to orgasm - either for me or for my partner or both, then it is sex. So touching, kissing, hand jobs, blow jobs, masturbation (mutual or solo), PIV intercourse, bondage, dirty talk, spanking, hair pulling, stroking, sucking, finger fucking - all and more = sex.

I do realize that not all sex results in orgasm. (Although, honestly, I really don't get non-orgasm focused sex but that's just me. I tend to be goal-oriented.) But if that was the goal - to bring pleasure - then it's still sex and something just went a bit awry.
 
And it makes gay sex (TWO penises attached to TWO live actual men) even more disturbing.

*gasp* You're right! It's... it's... double-sex!!! How unseemly. :p

Thinking about my personal, internal definition of sex... when I think of sex, I think of sensual, nude exploration of one another's bodies. If undergarments were still on, as the OP describes, I imagine I too might not be sure if I thought of it as "sex" or "fooling around".
 
Something about the notion of "re-educating a partner" sits wrong with me.

Perhaps it's because I grew up in a very open family, where I never felt like my opinions were bad, and I was allowed to come up with my own views of the world... but if someone were to try and "re-educate" me on sex, I would feel offended. Somehow, that makes it sound like my views are "wrong."

What does and does not constitute sex is as much a personal issue as cultural. Something that feels very intimate and sexual to one person may be completely boring and pointless to another. Does that mean one of those people is wrong? How can you be wrong about what your body says feels good?

It depends on how you feel when you do those acts. Do they feel like "just having fun" or do they feel like "being intimate?" Do you have the same reaction when you do those things with anyone or just certain people?

When I say the word "sex" I'm usually using shorthand for coitus. That's not to devalue the ways that other people get intimate, and that's probably because I don't put "sex" up on a pedestal. So what if two lesbians can't have coitus? Many times that I've had it, I've been unimpressed. They really aren't missing much.

Everything else, I put specific qualifiers: anal sex, oral sex (cunnilingus and fellatio), fisting, fingering, humping, spanking.... These things can all be "sexual" if they turn you on. They're just not what I refer to when I use the short form "sex."

I'm not into humping or making out. I get bored. So to me, those are not sex, because sex is not boring! This is not because I was culturally stunted. On the contrary, I was raised by a couple of hippies, free from influence of the Christian church, with my own copy of "Our Bodies, Our Selves" from the time I was 8.

And as much as I enjoy the feeling of an appropriate penis in my vagina, I equally enjoy many other activities such as cuddling up and falling asleep spooning and cunnilingus and manual g-spot stimulation and.....

Edit: I can see the possibility of confusion, though, so I'm thinking I will quit using the word "sex" altogether, except when talking about whether a baby chicken is a boy chick or a girl chick. Coitus, here I come!
 
Last edited:
Something about the notion of "re-educating a partner" sits wrong with me.

Perhaps it's because I grew up in a very open family, where I never felt like my opinions were bad, and I was allowed to come up with my own views of the world...

That's really cool, Cat. You're a lucky gril!

but if someone were to try and "re-educate" me on sex, I would feel offended. Somehow, that makes it sound like my views are "wrong."

Dunno what happened to the OP, but maybe she didnt really mean "re-educate," but just share views and get more on the same page.

When I say the word "sex" I'm usually using shorthand for coitus. That's not to devalue the ways that other people get intimate, and that's probably because I don't put "sex" up on a pedestal. So what if two lesbians can't have coitus?

Well, they can! That's what strapons are for!

Many times that I've had it, I've been unimpressed. They really aren't missing much.

God, I love a penis or toy in my vagina. Fingers are great, muff diving is lovely, but good slamming jamming fucking really gets me off. I miss it a lot when I don't get some for a while...

Everything else, I put specific qualifiers: anal sex, oral sex (cunnilingus and fellatio), fisting, fingering, humping, spanking.... These things can all be "sexual" if they turn you on. They're just not what I refer to when I use the short form "sex."

I totally respect that view, but to me, any kind of genital arousal and orgasm producing activity is sex, or at least "sexy time."


I'm not into humping or making out. I get bored.

Ahhh, I love a good makeout session. I think sometimes couples that are used to just fucking don't make out enough. It's romantic.

Edit: I can see the possibility of confusion, though, so I'm thinking I will quit using the word "sex" altogether, except when talking about whether a baby chicken is a boy chick or a girl chick.

But what if one of those chicks was transgender? :p
 
Back
Top