Advice on "The Talk"

Pienata

New member
Hello Poly people!

I posted here a while ago after some trouble I had. I had my first small taste of polyamory a few months ago which kind of ended in a trainwreck.

Summary for those who didn't read it or forgot: My primary partner (Bambi) allowed me to explore polyamory with a guy I met and fell in love with (Tizza), but not being much of a talker he didn't really want to discuss the implications of this "new thing". It basically ended up with Bambi having some issues with how things were going, and not talking until it was too late, at which point he requested me to stop seeing Tizza. I felt this was unfair, blabla, lots of arguments, emotions heightened etc. At some point I realized that there was not a constructive way to get what I feel I need (I've felt polyamorous for much longer) because things had become too dramatic. We decided to determine a future date to talk about this again, when things are less.. Emotionally charged. This date is december 14th. In the meantime, I agreed to his demand to stop seeing Tizza (we talk on the phone incidentally, but that's it). December 14th, we would speak about polyamory in general (because I feel it's "me") and, if I'd still care, with regard to Tizza.

Well, I still care very much. Tizza haunts my dreams regularly, and the few times I've mentioned him (maybe two or three times maximum), Bambi didn't sound all too pleased. Despite this, I still want to have this planned conversation. Ideally, I want it to develop in the most favourable way, at least getting Bambi to explore the implications of polyamory, which he never really did. Do you guys have any advice on how to constructively have this conversation so that hopefully everything will turn out well for all of us?

Bambi really hates to read, and since the failed venture he's probably not going to be very motivated to actively look into polyamory either, so I was hoping you guys knew a good documentary that shows polyamorous couples that are actually likeable and in a good, stable relationship that all parties seem happy in? I'm fairly certain he'd be willing to watch that if it matters to me and maybe it could show him a glimpse of how such a relationship would and could work. The first time we tried non-monogamy nothing was clearly defined or discussed beforehand and he basically had no knowledge of the concept at all (I had read A LOT about it already, here and on many other websites, I have a poly friend, thought about it actively, etc.)

Basically what I want to reach in conversation is that he will also actively question himself: "Why not?" since (romantic) monogamy is the standard that is usually assumed as opposed to polyamory... I would like him to step out of that thought and review what I'm suggesting as objectively and open-mindedly as possible. If he still really needs to be monogamous afterwards, that's fine, but I want him to REALLY think about it.

Oh, and we've actually been working on the lack of communication thing. It's difficult for Bambi and he used to actively resist talking anything through, but he does now realize that he needs to think things through and communicate about it because I cannot read his mind. He still has trouble defining and communicating thoughts clearly but at least now makes an effort to do so for our sake.
 
Most poly documentaries I've seen are about religious nuts. I think you've got to accept that your boyfriend doesn't want this. Give him some links to read, if he isn't interested in this, he won't read them. But do stop thinking of ways to get him to feel the same as you.
 
Most poly documentaries I've seen are about religious nuts. I think you've got to accept that your boyfriend doesn't want this. Give him some links to read, if he isn't interested in this, he won't read them. But do stop thinking of ways to get him to feel the same as you.

He's not uninterested per se, he was okay with it before (technically), but he's in general part of the group of people that believes relationships have to work effortlessly or it's just not really meant to be. I differ believing sometimes they're hard work. I know poly can work but I also know it takes work and some effort from everyone involved and I need him to see that that's okay (actually this would be a problem for our relationship in general, except that usually we get along so well that things ARE effortless. But I know it can't be like that all the time)

He actually agreed to talking about it again sometime since he's not opposed to the idea per se. I'd say there's quite a chance he'll agree to try again, we still have the sexually open relationship and he's not strongly opposed to relational openness in itself. But it went wrong and I'm afraid it will again if he doesn't get some info on how these things go, like that it's OKAY to sometimes feel bad about smth and talk about it instead of assuming that something that makes you feel bad once is "apparently not meant to be that way". Sometimes I fear the day that even just the two of us run into trouble. I mean, we've had quite our share of bad luck lately and stuck together through it without many trouble, and I know we're really not prone to arguing a lot. But still, the day may come.
 
I'm in his camp of relationships shouldn't be hard work. I wouldn't take kindly to someone pressuring me to change my view. If I thought polyamorous relationships were going to be harder work for me than monogamous ones then i would be monogamous. Your partner obviously feels that further opening of his relationship would be harder work for him and is therefore apprehensive about it. I support his apprehension entirely if he feels that a polyamorous relationship would be too much hard work to adjust to and be happy.
 
I'm in his camp of relationships shouldn't be hard work. I wouldn't take kindly to someone pressuring me to change my view. If I thought polyamorous relationships were going to be harder work for me than monogamous ones then i would be monogamous. Your partner obviously feels that further opening of his relationship would be harder work for him and is therefore apprehensive about it. I support his apprehension entirely if he feels that a polyamorous relationship would be too much hard work to adjust to and be happy.

Responded to this but there's an update.

I would like to stress I don't want to pressurize Bambi in any way. He's not necessarily opposed to poly, as the first time he had no problems with it at all... It just failed because we had different ideas about it. I just want to see if we can work that out now that things are less emotional.

As you can read below here, we had a nice talk sharing feelings and thoughts, not really suggesting anything yet, just sharing. He knows how I feel, I know how he feels... Currently we're just thinking about a way to compromise that neither of us feels unhappy with. :)
 
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UPDATE

Since I had been feeling increasingly blue since yesterday about matters Bambi started interrogating me about what was wrong (though I had promised not to bother him about anything regarding Tizza at least until December 14th). He wanted me to be honest so I admitted that I was still having a lot of trouble getting over Tizza, and we spoke about relationships in general and a little bit about polyamory.

It was a surprisingly harmonious talk, not defensive at all like when we were arguing about Tizza a month or one and a half ago. We mostly just shared some thoughts, I didn't want to pressurize him into actually trying polyamorous relationships but I think it might be possible to suggest trying at some point.

I told him that over the past few years I've grown increasingly conscious about the fact that I really do feel polyamory is the way to go for me. I asked him if he thought of it as a completely ridiculous idea (because I don't want to pressurize him into anything, london, sorry if it looks that way). He answered that he thinks it's not ridiculous, and that it can be done but that maybe I'm trying too hard. He thinks I have too much of an idealized view of a loving extended family where everyone just gets along and everyone is there for everyone when needed. He doesn't think polyamory is worse (or better!) than monogamy per se but sees more potential for trouble (but also some perks).

What it basically came down to in the end is that he's not necessarily opposed, but we have different ideas about what polyamory means (which also caused the not-really-well-discussed first attempt to crash and burn) and the form of it that we'd find ideal. He seems to be levitating towards a "core couple" kind of construction where there are only secondary relationships to ours whereas I have a strong preference for equality (where it's wanted) and tend to feel a little (just a little) choked in a traditional couple's set up.

Is there any way to work out those differences? Or another way we haven't thought of at all, that might suit both of us?

As for Tizza, I'd really love it if we could be together again. Bambi has no problems with Tizza on a personal level, they even like eachother, he just had some problems with the situation stemming from our different ideas of poly.

In the case of Tizza returning, obviously his opinion matters too. Thankfully, he doesn't really even mind. He cares about me a lot but is comfortable in secondary position because he's a fairly independent non-homebody type anyway, with a very active social life and no desire to start a family or anything like that. Therefore, his wishes don't clash with Bambi's wishes at all so that's fairly easy.

What's left is the differences between me and Bambi..
 
There is no new information here; its actually the same as your last thread. He is only comfortable with Oi guys having casual sexual relationships with others. You want more. You need to decide if you want more than you want him. There Isnt a wrong answer here. You need to accept what he has said.
 
Your boyfriend has made his stance perfectly clear.

He is ok with you having casual sex with others, but not an emotional or romantic relationships. You have to decide whether you would be ok living the rest of your life that way.
 
It's not true though, at least if I assume that he means what he says.

He says being romantically involved is fine. In the failed attempt he was just not all too happy with my case of NRE (my fault), because he was afraid he'd be less important. He's fine with me being romantically involved as long as he will always be #1. I feel that I cannot guarantee that, even though in the particular case I mentioned it would not structurally change anything for Bambi.

Either way, the trouble are a while ago now and he seems much more happy to talk now and he does not mind the idea theoretically. The part we keep getting stuck at... He says it's all good as long as I promise it won't change anything significantly between us. I don't feel it will now, but how can I ever speak for the future?
 
By the rules of communication, I have to assume that he speaks truthfully, right?
Or do you think he would only try (by his rules) because he's afraid I might otherwise leave?
 
What you aren't understanding is that you won't be able to control your feelings in the way he wants you to. You aren't going to be able to put him first in the way he needs when you love two people. This isn't because polyamory doesn't work, because you can't do poly or because he doesn't understand polyamory. It's because he needs relationships that aren't necessarily monogamous but are couple focused in a way that inherently restricts emotional availability outside the dyad. Which, alas, is something you, like many of us, seek.

So, what you have to do if you don't want to break his boundary is completely avoid forming relationships where you can start to build those emotions. That means you keeping any outside relationships to casual, NSA, swinging type encounters. That's the only way you will be able to keep his boundaries and not treat someone else badly when your partner pulls a veto again.
 
What you aren't understanding is that you won't be able to control your feelings in the way he wants you to. You aren't going to be able to put him first in the way he needs when you love two people. This isn't because polyamory doesn't work, because you can't do poly or because he doesn't understand polyamory. It's because he needs relationships that aren't necessarily monogamous but are couple focused in a way that inherently restricts emotional availability outside the dyad. Which, alas, is something you, like many of us, seek.

So, what you have to do if you don't want to break his boundary is completely avoid forming relationships where you can start to build those emotions. That means you keeping any outside relationships to casual, NSA, swinging type encounters. That's the only way you will be able to keep his boundaries and not treat someone else badly when your partner pulls a veto again.

You're probably right, but it makes me sad.

It's not that I want to pressurize him into anything, I really don't, it's just.... It seems so overly common around here as well, that people get into it because of their partners, sometimes reluctantly, and it still works out fine in the end. Probably because poly isn't quite the default state, so I can imagine anyone being hesitant.

Bambi is actually much more open to it already than anyone else I met so I can't help but wonder whether there might not be a little poly inside him. When I told him yesterday when I was feeling sad that I had still not really put what happened to rest, and that I really missed Tizza... He wasn't hurt, he was supportive.

We really just shared feelings (I nowhere really suggested trying it again) and he does understand how I feel in a way..
 
You can't make a leopard into a tiger.

Stop trying to change Bambi by forcing him into a relationship he truly doesn't want.

I have never had Butch try to manage my emotions in regards to Murf or anyone I dated.
 
Pienata, my thoughts (and experience) are a bit different than other people here. Shortly I understood that others mainly advice you that Bambi is - as he is - and that you can't do much about it.

My own experience about poly was different. After being 7 years in really good and happy marriage (totally faithful person) I fell in love with other man. I came to my husband and told him all about it. At the beginning he was not happy about idea at all. He was afraid that he will lose me, family, everything we have.... We started to talk a lot, to investigate... and i wanted to include him in every step... Never did anything with my boyfriend (no sex) before he approved it. With time he started to look totally different on that and even got himself a GF (but he never wanted to have sex with her, even though I was totally ok with it if he wanted)...

So, maybe you can't make Bambi into lion... but if you will be patient and give him time to adjust I see in him a lot of potential that he makes himself into lion... (and not you forcing him).

That happened with my husband...
People often need time for such switch in head...
 
It's not unusual for partners to ask for reassurance of their importance early in the poly experience. It's scary to think that the person you love may find someone "better".

In my opinion, as long as you and he continue to communicate and you meet his need for reassurance, there's nothing to say that he won't become more comfortable with your relationship with others.
 
Oh, and we've actually been working on the lack of communication thing. It's difficult for Bambi and he used to actively resist talking anything through, but he does now realize that he needs to think things through and communicate about it because I cannot read his mind. He still has trouble defining and communicating thoughts clearly but at least now makes an effort to do so for our sake.

I strongly strongly recommend getting the audiobook or training course for Nonviolent Communication (both available as torrents if your morals permit it). The audiobooks are great because hearing the tone of the communication really helps, plus you can put them on while you're driving or walking to work when your brain is free to learn.

I believe a lot of what's happening here is that Bambi doesn't believe his needs could be met in any arrangement where he is not #1. However, "being #1" is not a need, it's a strategy for meeting his need for security, connection, stability. But as it turns out, a hierarchical arrangement does not meet your need for autonomy, freedom, and equality.

NVC can help you both understand what each other's needs are, and how you both feel when those needs are not met. By empathizing with each other, you can work together to find strategies that meet everyone's needs. At worst, you might come to the realization that your mutual needs really are incompatible, but then it wouldn't just be "I want poly and he doesn't" but that perhaps there is no strategy that can meet both your needs at the same time while remaining in a relationship together.

He's not uninterested per se, he was okay with it before (technically), but he's in general part of the group of people that believes relationships have to work effortlessly or it's just not really meant to be. I differ believing sometimes they're hard work.

For me, it depends on what's truly meant by "effortlessly" and "hard work."

Having long emotional talks is really hard work for Gralson. He was raised in a home where having emotions wasn't permitted, and expressing needs was a sign of weakness. He's much better at it now, but it's extremely draining for him, and he often gets flooded and needs time to settle down before conversations can continue.

For me, however, talking about my feelings and my needs is fun. I feel closer to my partners when I connect with them, and I've always been very in tune with my feelings, so expressing them is effortless.

For Gralson, absolutely any relationship that's more than casual sex will be "hard work" because being happy and healthy in a serious relationship requires talking about your feelings and your needs. Now to be fair, he could (and some people do) decide that that's "too much work" and choose never to have any kind of serious relationship. And indeed, that's what he did for years. He also spent a lot of time in semi-serious relationships where he coped by letting them have their way to avoid any fuss, until he got tired of them being needy or demanding or whatever, and walked away. Until he met me, he just didn't feel it was worth all that trouble.

Now I firmly believe, and I've managed to convince Gralson, that two people must share their feelings and needs in order to form a connection and experience intimacy. Since we've done this a lot and he's experienced how good it feels to be heard and understood, and how empowering it is when someone sees your vulnerability and accepts you and loves you just the same if not more for it, he's come to appreciate the value of this "really hard work."

But having difficult emotional conversations is nothing like "trying to become someone you're not." If "hard work" means "changing your core values" then I don't believe that's healthy. If "hard work" means "learn to suck it up and just deal with all your icky feelings because your partner wants to do whatever she wants and you just have to accept that" ... then no, probably not going to work out for anyone.
 
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Yes, being poly (or a mono partnered to a poly person, for that matter) requires one be in touch with one's feelings, able to identify them, and express them clearly (using "I statements" and not calling your partner names or casting blame), and work to have your needs met, either by yourself, by your "primary" partner, or by another friend or partner if need be.

I think it's immature to imagine anything worth having is not worth fighting for, and working for. Whether it's that dream vacation, a home of your own, a certain big ticket item like a car, having and raising a child. All these things don't just "happen" effortlessly (unless you're like, an heir to a fortune), you gotta work for 'em! Likewise, if you've found true love, you don't just get her, and live happily ever after. You need to be kind, patient, caring, nurse them when they are sick, hold them when they are sad, listen to them when they need to talk something out, etc., etc.

I know men in our society are trained to not show feelings. This is unfortunate and becoming outmoded in most cases (not showing feelings on the battlefield can save your life, and your co-soldiers' lives, otherwise, I do not see the point).

But many men who can't or won't deal with their emotions end up with partners who feel so distant from them, their partner eventually shuts down sexually, and then the guy wonders, what happened to the sex kitten I used to know?

My other point is, why demand nothing changes in your relationship? Whether it's another partner to love, or a new job, a newborn child, needing to move to a new home in a new city, a weight gain or loss, a medical issue, loving partnerships are guaranteed to change. Maybe you two can ride out this change. Great! Maybe the relationship won't survive the change. Not so great, sad indeed, but after healing it is possible to meet new partners who can meet you in your new normal.

However, if you were presenting poly as your "one big happy family" ideal, 3 people living together as co-primaries, this might have been jumping the gun a little! OTOH, if you and Tizza are fine with one date a week, say, to begin with, and you can limit your IMing/texting/phonecalls when Bambi is home, this will help to ease him into it. Give him lots of quality time, sex, fun date activities so that he doesn't feel left out when youre swoony with NRE.
 
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