Greetings from TN

When I bring up what meds she is taking or not taking, she gets very defensive. After the affair she went on Zoloft (which she also did after having the girls), to combat bipolar, which our counsellor suggested could have something to do with her being hypersexual during her "manic" phase. She actually told me yesterday that her mother has scolded her for not taking the medication now. Her mother knows we are having problems but does NOT know about the polyamory. W tells me she doesn't necessarily want to be "evened out" emotionally. To hell with us who suffer, I guess (although of course I didn't say that to her).

She has made it apparent on MANY occasions that she has a bad case of buyer's remorse for the kids. I asked her point blank one night if she had her way how many hours would she spend with the kids per week and she said "Zero". These kids deserve a mother, and this is one of the reasons I've been fighting hard for this marriage. If I can get her to the point where she's happy with her relationships, and getting plenty of non-kid, non-me time, then I'm hoping her perspective on the children will change.

She has been a good mother at times, but often a very distant and hateful mother. She yells at them constantly and says things like "Being dead has GOT to be better than this" (often in earshot of the girls, and on occassion in front of some friends of ours). When she's with them, often she's not WITH them (she's texting her guy, or washing dishes, or doing laundry, or surfing Facebook, pretty much anything not to spend time with them).
 
Make sure the counselor knows about this. I understand that the kids are innocent victims of Mom's buyer's remorse, but that doesn't make the buyer's remorse go away, nor does it change how Mom responds to it. *Mom* has to be the one who decides she's going to act differently. You can encourage her up to a certain point, but beyond that, it's up to her.

Be careful that you do not inadvertently martyr yourself for the sake of behavior change by your wife, change that you may or may not ever see. Even if she does change, you could end up resenting her for the sacrifices you had to make in order to get her there. You are "pulling her part of the train," as well as pulling your own.

You are very concerned that the kids aren't getting the mother they deserve, and that's what you need to make very clear to the counselor. That's how it looks from where I'm sitting.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Things had been going much better between the two of us this last week, which was the first full-week of our new schedule we'd agreed upon. Today, while having lunch with W, she starts talking about her upcoming trip to Las Vegas with her mom, whom she is treating to this vacation as part of her mom's 60th Birthday. She plans a Mon-Sat. vacation with her mom. But then, she decides that she wants to do a "pre" vacation Fri-Mon with her guy.

Now, I have already had the discussion with her about how I'm very uncomfortable with stays over 24 hours with him, based on the last time she spent an entire day with him. I told her that after I get comfortable with our new schedule, and after we're more comfortable with our own relationship, and are making strides towards more emotional and physical imtimacy, I may reconsider. Until, then though, I am very uncomfortable with any long stays, to say nothing of a long weekend like she wants.

She gets quiet for a moment and says, "I think I'm going anyway". I didn't respond, but just left the restaurant after kissing her on the cheek on wishing her well the rest of the day.

Now how am I supposed to respond to this flagrant dismissal of my emotions and discomfort?
 
Only you can decide how to respond to that. Your initial response was wise. Now come the big questions you have to ask. She has laid down an ultimatum. "I'm going to do what I want to do no matter how you feel about it." Is that a dealbreaker? Is it something you can tolerate for a fixed amount of time (a year, a month, or whatever)? Is it something you can put on hold until your next counseling session?

She is very caught up in NRE and is testing her limits. Her marriage is not coming across to her as being as important as it used to be. She is willing to take chances with it. Can you adapt to her new precedent of behavior? Should you adapt? Are you going to end up resenting her?

Maybe this is a one-time thing. But maybe it will become a habit. You can always wait and see what happens.

It's possible she thinks you *will* be okay with it, even though you said you wouldn't. You can let her test her theory and see what happens.

In any case, she's taking a heck of a gamble. I don't know what to advise you to do; your marriage, happiness, and peace of mind are at stake, so you will have to make a judgment call on which of those things can be salvaged and how.
 
Well, to answer your question, yes, it is a dealbreaker if she were to actually do this. It is way too blatant a disrespect for me to handle, especially after all I feel I've agreed to let her do (probably more than 99.9% of men on the planet would agree to).

If she continues to press this, I will probably speak with her guy. We had an understanding that we would never do anything that would make each other uncomfortable. I feel he'll agree, because he knows firsthand what can happen when open relationships go bad.
 
Ironic that her guy is more likely to honor your requests than she is. Talking to him seems like the logical thing to do, given that your marriage is in pretty grave danger otherwise.
 
Well, to answer your question, yes, it is a dealbreaker if she were to actually do this. It is way too blatant a disrespect for me to handle, especially after all I feel I've agreed to let her do (probably more than 99.9% of men on the planet would agree to).

Does she know this is going to be a deal-breaker? Just make sure she does, it's not a threat, it's just a clear establishment of boundaries. Every relationship has a terminal boundary, one that once crossed can never be un-crossed. This is that boundary for you. You know that once you set down that boundary, you can't pull back from it. That would make you a untrustworthy to yourself, and give her even more permission to disregard your needs.

.
 
I sense that she knows it's a deal-breaker, although I haven't specifically said those words. I've already gone through the ordeal of expressing how difficult it was the day she was with him for 24 hours, and told her I not comfortable with her spending more time than that. And, as usual, instead of acknowledging my discomfort, she just argued and argued to try to convince me it would be fine, and that my feelings were pretty much not legit.

If I find that she's actually following through on making those plans, I'll put a stop to this polyamory lifestyle pronto.
 
Unfortunately, she may not take some of your feelings seriously unless/until she sees the proof. Let's hope it doesn't come to that, even though it may.
 
Now the latest: I had planned a date night for us (since I get one/week), and this week is her birthday, so I wanted date night to fall on that day. We had planned a dinner, a movie, and then come back home and (hopefully) have some quality time before we drop off to sleep. Yesterday, W says that her guy wants her to come over after we're done with the movie so that "he can spend some time with her on her birthday". I say that I'm uncomfortable with that, as I want that night to be all about us. Then comes all the arguments about how I'm being unreasonable, I have her most of the night, etc.

Now, part of the issue is that I feel that I am maxed out on time I feel I can give over to her being with her guy. On week one of our two week schedule, when he doesn't have his teen son with him, they have FOUR nights, which start at 7:00p (after he gets off work), and last until 5:30 or 6:00a (when W has to go to work). In essence, they have four date nights that week - no kids, just the two of them to do whatever they want. Part of the agreement we have when we agreed on the schedule (which is pretty much exactly what she asked for), is that once/week we'd have a date night where we get a sitter to take care of the girls and we have that night totally to ourselves. And this week I want that date to be on her birthday, because I still feel that should be ours to celebrate alone. If we were to have a fun night of a dinner and a movie, then have her run off to her guy to spend the night, it would bother me immensely, to the point that that heavy pit in my stomach would keep me up all night.

W decided to get help bolstering her position by firing off an email to our counsellor. I'm curious as to what counsellor will reply, but regardless I'll need to email her also and give her my position.

This is all part of a similar problem we're having where W wants to spend some weekends, holidays, etc. with her guy, but I'm not comfortable with them spending more than 24 hours together. I keep telling her that I may reconsider this as I get more comfortable with our schedule, and as we work on getting our own physical and emotional intimacy back to where it should be. She always seems to not to want to wait on this to get what she wants, but I have my limits, as do all relationships, poly or otherwise, and that's where I've set mine.

I know you guys are getting tired of all this drama, but I do really value your input and it helps me to be able to get my feelings out this way.
 
Sounds like you haven't yet come to an agreement about how to handle holidays and special occasions. Without that agreement, drama is sure to arise whenever a holiday or special occasion comes up. It also probably won't help to try to negotiate special occasions when one is already at hand. By then it's an emotionally charged topic and bound to become a contest. The negotiating has to be done well between special occasions, and the agreements will need to be very specific (e.g., birthdays are just for the two of us, but Christmas can include "x" amount of time with the other guy).

Since you guys are both strung about as tight as you can go, all negotiations will have to be done with great care. Remind W that a compromise involves give and take, so both you will need to give up something you want so the other person can get something they want. You may need the counsellor to mediate the discussion about holidays/special occasions.

It's unfortunate that things are as strained as they are, but they'll probably continue to be strained for quite awhile. Take what consolation you can in that factor, as it's bound to come into play whenever the least opportunity presents itself. A birthday is definitely one of those opportunities.

Sympathies/regards,
Kevin T.
 
Well, the thing about her going to see her guy tomorrow night is now moot, as he has agreed to have lunch with her, which she told me he was trying to arrange anyway, and agreed not to go see him tomorrow night if they have lunch together. She still texted me and was all pissy, with an attitude of "You got what you wanted", as if she would have rather gone to see him tomorrow night than have lunch.

What she doesn't know is I have planned a little surprise party/gettogether at one of our favorite restaurants after the movie tomorrow night. A lot of our friends, PLUS her guy, are coming. I can't wait to see her response to that.
 
It seems that she is in a defensive frame of mind. Having been in a place myself where I was caught up with NRE and also caught in an ailing marriage, I know too well how the NRE-infected spouse can feel. Of course, in my case, this happened at a time when I was rebelling against everything. I learned to regret the way I neglected my wife, but at the time, sometimes I almost had the perspective that she was the enemy.

Your wife will probably eventually come around, and feel bad about the amount of pushing she's done. This is a stage she's going through and if it's at all like the one I went through, she's probably suffering within her soul more than she has a "right" to. The natural thing to think is that she should be having a great time in life, having *two* guys with her husband's permission. The reality, though, is that she is probably in a place of inner turmoil. Not everything about NRE is fun and roses; it is also a source of intense yearning that can stretch one's heart and compress it against the walls of the impossible. If you have any compassion to spare for W, I would guess that she probably needs it.

I do recognize that you have pushed yourself way beyond the bounds of social norms in order to be accepting of this foreign relationship situation. W is not extending the compassion to *you* that you deserve. The best you can hope for here is an opportunity to set the better example, to be on her team even if she seemingly won't be on yours.

You've been very generous towards her. Sometimes giving a lot leads to a state of resentment or keeping score. You give a lot and W barely seems to give any. Try not to hold that against her. Polyamory.com is a good place to vent so do take advantage of that resource, but let the venting be an act of letting go if you can.

I hope the surprise party will help her understand that you are on her side. It would be a shame if she felt defensive and guilty about it, though that's an unfortunate possibility. It would go against the purpose of a birthday celebration, which is to bring some happiness to the person whose birthday it is. I hope she won't let her fragile state of mind interfere with that.

You deserve kudos for the patience you've already shown, in any case. I have hope that it will be worth it in the end.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
kdt, you are so incredibly insightful. Are you sure you're not a trained psychologist? You seem better than the one we currently have.

She actually mentioned last night she thought I was very resentful of her affair (even though I worked through that pretty well in the year or so of MC we did), and resentful of the fact that she has a paramour and I don't (hmmmm...I don't feel that way. What I dislike is being a doormat and her disregarding my feelings and the no sex thing).

Then she asked if I would be willing to be the seconday relationship instead of her primary. When I pressed her for her definition of secondary she refused to answer, but whatever her definition is, I don't like it, and would never agree to being "secondary" after 15 years of being her husband and 5 years of being the father of our children. I told her as much. And her guy doesn't want to be the primary either, although W said she would like that. But that question of hers about sent me over the edge.

The thing is, I'm not sure how much of this is NRE fog that will change with time or if it's time for me to start speaking with a lawyer. She's been having sex with him for about 7 months, but only expressed the love aspect of it as occuring about 2 months ago.
 
Alas, W has presented you with some questions and dilemmas that don't have any simple/easy answers. I am slightly alarmed that she is asking you about being a secondary, and I agree with you that it would not be fair for you to accept secondary status after all the years of loyalty toward her. If she wants two primaries, I would consider that more do-able (eventually).

Re: NRE ... it can last quite awhile; estimates of the average duration run from six months to two years. When the NRE does wear off, I'll bet she'll regret how much she pushed you. But I could be wrong.

So, is now the time to get a hold of a divorce lawyer? Perhaps. With how different each individual is, only you can answer that question. I personally recommend setting a time limit on how long you can/should put up with the unfair stuff, and mark a date on the calendar at the end of that time limit. When that date arrives, you call a lawyer.

But make sure it's as long a time as you can go, as W is not in her right mind right now. She is stumbling in the dark with a blindfold on, even if she wants to pretend her perspective is aligned with reality.

If you have reached the appropriate limit of your endurance, then yes, call a divorce lawyer. Just make sure you think carefully through each step of the process.

Re:
"KDT, you are so incredibly insightful. Are you sure you're not a trained psychologist? You seem better than the one we currently have."

I thank you for that sentiment. Alas, the experience I have comes from the mistreatment I once dealt out to others, and somehow I always seem to escape paying the price for my own sins. My wife was coming down with Alzheimer's, just at the time when I was rebelling against everything. Imagine, her memory and cognition are slipping down the drain, and she is clinging on to anything cherished and familiar, and here I am, cutting my ties with the cherished and familiar, and not showing her the compassion I should have. It was a complicated situation and a long story, but the point is, any wisdom I have was given to me by the sacrifices of others.

Maybe that's why I frequent poly forums, is out of some subconscious hope to help others where I hindered others in the past. In any case, I am very sympathetic of your situation, and hope things work out okay.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Well, the little surprise party worked out well. When we got home afterward she came over to my side of the bed and we cuddled and kissed before we fell asleep. The date night was fun, as I gave her birthday gifts, including a little necklace with her birthstone. We didn't mention the previous nights' discussion at all.
 
Well that is a relief. It doesn't take a lot of progress at once; just a little progress at a time will eventually get you there.

Keep us posted on how things are going.
 
Well here we go again. W, knowing full-well that I'm not onboard yet with any stays over 24 hours with her guy, is testing my limits again. She wants to go with him to some kind of martial arts conference (he's a teacher) for 2 days. She texted me the question, with concessions like "I won't see him Thursday and I won't see him Sunday."

Decisions, decisions.
 
It's NRE talking again. If you can stand the trade-off she proposes, I guess you could agree. It's really up to you though.
 
Well, we managed to come to an understanding this weekend, shifted some things around so she's only with him for about 24 hours. So crisis averted.

W and her guy have started looking for a third person (presumably a woman) by signing up on the same site we used to use when we were swinging. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, why should I really care what they do on their time? They're not with me, right. But part of me is really bugged by this. I mean, W and I are not even having sex, and she's moved on to wanting threesomes with her guy. And I miss having threesomes, too. I'm wondering if it will make it even more difficult to re-establish our intimacy if she's doing threesomes without me.
 
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