Hello from (Upstate) NY

I don't see anything wrong at all about delaying intercourse with any new prospective partner, just as you did pre-marriage. We can't be too careful these days! I've dated about 30 people since becoming single back in 2008, and I rarely went all the way on a first date, despite my super high libido. If I felt turned on by this or that person on a first date, sure, I'd mess around with them to one extent or another, but full-on PiV was rare.

Look deeply at this idea of ownership between you and your h though. The ownership of one human by another is termed slavery. In this country, slavery is illegal unless it's a consensual kink.

Coming from the Christian mindset, of course, most of the Bible assumes slavery. A person can own another as a slave who is his servant. A man owns his wife and children and can do as he pleases with them. That was all written reflecting life in the BCE era to first couple centuries CE though! We are talking Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman Empire days, with a little bit of monotheism (Yahweh worship) thrown in just to make things even more complicated. Why anyone would base their lives on the thoughts and misguided beliefs of cultures from 2000+ years ago is beyond me.

This is the 21st century. You own yourself, your h owns himself. Opening your marriage will help you look at how independent you both allow yourselves to be. Coming together as husband and wife should be an issue of choice, not expectation, not ownership, not "sharing" or "allowing" one's partner to do this or that.

You both will, of course, take into consideration this is all a brand new relationship configuration that will take time to get used to. Time, patience, respect, consideration, negotiation. But not ownership.

How do you deal with the fear of loss? You could lose your spouse at any time, through death. You could lose most of them through a debilitating disease, even if they hang onto life. Your husband could lose you to another man at any time. People do fall out of love and divorce. But if you're really poly, doing or not doing this or that sex act won't cause you to fall out of love with your husband.

I have all kinds of wonderful fucking with my bf Ginger. I have not fallen out of love with my gf miss pixi just because she doesn't have his equipment and we don't have PiV! My sex life in general is less intense with miss p than with Ginger, her libido and tastes in bed are different, but we love each other madly, and got a house together this year.
 
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Interesting food for thought; I know you're speaking to PolyMC but just a few things ...

Re: ownership = slavery which is illegal ... huh interesting observation and really true; hard to overcome though in today's society. I mean, don't "they" teach us that we "own" one another when we get married? Sometimes I think it's hard for people (and takes quite awhile) to dissolve that social conditioning. So technically, there's a lot of traditional married couples out there who (in their hearts) are technically breaking the law ...

Most of all, "they" teach us that we "own" our spouse's sexual organs. I can imagine A having quite a struggle with laying that notion aside.

Re:
"Why anyone would base their lives on the thoughts and misguided beliefs of cultures from 2000+ years ago is beyond me."

Haha, I sooo resonate with that; though I seldom say it cause I hate to take the chance of offending some religious person or another. But yeah it's like, reality check, 2000 years, hello?

Interesting ideas about the -- potential? feared? -- loss of "how good it used to be" once PIV has occurred with a new partner. It says a lot that you and miss pixi can't even do PIV, and yet even though you *can* do so with Ginger, it hasn't ruined what you had with miss p at all. So, "sharing" PIV probably isn't something any of us (e.g. PolyMC or A or both) need to be scared of.

But waiting awhile before diving into the PIV end of the pool? perfectly do-able and an option I'm down with. Can't be too careful these days? Hell yeah, that's the reality of our modern age.

Okay, I'll desist ... sorry for the tendency to get in on someone else's conversation ... I just particularly liked a lot of what you said and wanted to say amen, amen.
 
Oooh, very interesting things to think about with ownership of body parts. I'm having a little trouble with the idea of it being equated to slavery though, as that implies that what we're doing is totally against my will. Nothing could be further from the truth on that, although I suppose the real test of that will be if I find myself in a position of desperately wanting the PIV with either "M" or "T" and have to hold back because of the agreement. It hasn't happened yet...not even close. In the next four or five months that could change. Right now I'm still in the process of getting my brain wrapped around my being in love with three men at once AND trying to explain that to "A" while still reassuring him that I love him now more than I ever have. He keeps coming back to "Am I not enough for you" and doesn't understand when I tell him that has nothing to do with it. I will say that we've been quite a bit more affectionate with each other since the initial poly talks than we've been in the recent past before.

And Kevin, please don't feel you need to leave the conversation...I've come to really look forward to your insights as a "seasoned poly" as it were. As I mentioned before, I don't have anyone to talk to in my immediate support system as I have not "outed" myself except to those directly involved (2 out of three anyway...maybe I'll get brave and have a heart-to-heart with "M" next month when I'm up there; at least I'll find out where I stand) and two others who are sympathetic to the situation, but have no experience with this particular subject.
 
Oh of course, I still "want in on the conversation" in general (thanks for that re-invite), I just didn't mean to block someone else's effort to post to you directly.

Re:
"Am I not enough for you?"

Only insofar as A can't literally be everyone in the world; he can't be M and T. Every person is unique and brings something to the table that no one else could bring. So from a poly standpoint, "Nobody is ultimately enough, but everyone you love is perfect for you." A is perfect for you. T is perfect for you. M is perfect for you. Nobody in the equation *needs* to be "enough" per se (since what does "enough" really mean anyway except to suggest if you really loved someone you wouldn't need to be polyamorous?); they just need to be "right for you" (and you need to be right for them of course).

Is it "not enough" to be perfect for someone? Well, then it should be *enough for A* that he is perfect for you. He shouldn't need to be *everything* for you in order to consider himself adequate. You don't do polyamory because you want him to change. You do it because you want to share the love with M and T also.

Well, if A is deeply conditioned to live only with monogamy, it will take great patience, and many different approaches, to help him put aside that conditioning. Conditioning is really, really hard to reason with.

Good luck and keep us posted.
 
I'd be weary of anyone telling you what will be acceptable

in regards to A and T

I say it's up to you first, and fuck what anyone else has to say about it, how is what you decided being anything even remotely close to A "owning" you just because he is your husband?

If T is all about making sure both you and your husband really want to practice "polyamory" and he is fine keeping physical love to only hugging you passionately who is it that ultimately "owns" the relationship rules?

Why is the negative "owning" and "controlling" behavior assigned to your husband yet not to the people who attempt to pressure you into PIV sex?

and if they are not attempting to pressure you, then why are you even debating what is right or wrong in any circumstances other then you've already discussed things with T, and he demands PIV sex?

which in that case who is it really that thinks they own your body?

perhaps maybe the only way to not be playing this game of assumptions that all the poly gurus claim is a no no, you should sit down with both A and T and yourself and see if any of them start making claims of ownership where they are entitled to demand any sex or demand no sex without your consent.

I mean, we are all adults right?

How many polyships are sunk because some well meaning advice giver actually wants your husband to suffer through all that they had to?

I know everyone talks about jealousy of their partner's lover, but if they are really so genuine and forthright super poly, how come the jealousy of someone having way too easy of a time with polyamory and the sabotage from people jealous of other's relationships never gets mentioned?

Are people seriously that vocal and adamant that poly will be this way and must be experienced as their experience was, and are they honestly just trying to help you have a successful experience or is it even remotely possible that there is just a smidgeon of resentment or jealousy?

Lets say that T honestly just enjoys you for being you, and doesn't mind not even kissing let alone no everything besides PIV sex, are these people going to happy because all of you were patient enough to coast into poly or just happened to fall backwards into it?

My experience is you would meet the same hostility, if not more, and personally have become accustomed to saying "fuck all that noise" let them be pissed, the truth is not debatable, are you supposed to feel sorry for people who have bad relationships because their lovers are passive aggressive assholes?

maybe if they didn't agree they couldn't break up with people because then the partner gets accused of pulling the veto card,

My personal view of drilling partners is why try to destroy something that could be good if it were allowed to be "organic" instead of some asshole being force fed "poly" medicine?

unless you are planning on hitting every nerve a potential boyfriend may have, why hit them at all? and if you are going to do it to your husband, warn him first, otherwise you are just going to make the road harder to travel, I don't care what some poly guru says, if some asshole litters my driveway with nails, when I get a flat tire I am not dumb enough to think it was my tires weren't tuff enough.

I'd tell the asshole who caused the problem to knock it off.

this is all a moot point unless T is demanding PIV sex, no?

I mean seriously , what is the point?
 
:confused:

I'm guessing the meaning is that just because everyone paints PIV as "inevitable" (in poly), doesn't mean you have to assume that's how it'll be in your experience? If so, then I have no arguments. If you, A, T, and M are happy with whatever you've got here and now, let that suffice and the future can develop naturally as it will. No, PIV is not required in any poly relationship, ever. Completely up to the persons involved.

I hope that arrow didn't miss the mark ...
 
I say it's up to you first, and fuck what anyone else has to say about it, how is what you decided being anything even remotely close to A "owning" you just because he is your husband?

Dirt, it was the OP who brought up the Christian angle and the guilt around having multiple partners. I was addressing that angle.

The rest of your post is mildly offensive and riddled with expletives and put downs, so I merely skimmed it and won't bother responding or clarifying.
 
I just didn't understand the post, I don't think. I guess "who says anyone's owning anyone here" was part of the point? but far from all of the point. Honestly, that post kind of went everywhere. Dirtclustit, I need simpler, clearer, better organized, more direct statements, with examples, in order to really understand, I think. Don't suppose you could help me out in that area?
 
I'm not quite sure I fully understand the post by Dirtclustit either, but the gist that I get is that I'm being encouraged to follow my heart regarding how to handle my relationship(s) and not be influenced by what others tell me is the "right thing to do", which may or may not apply to my specific situation. While I do have an idea of what's "right" in my heart, I'm still really new to the poly thing and having others relay their experiences and issues they've encountered along the way is helpful. While I may not follow the same path, it will better prepare me for what I might expect to encounter as this newly discovered aspect of my personality unfolds.

And I'm happy to report that things are still good between me and "A"...we're talking a lot more than we ever have. He's still trying to come to grips with this "bombshell" of sorts, but we've agreed that we both have no intention of ending the marriage as we still love each other as much as we ever have, if not more. The test will be these upcoming trips...
 
If I may ask, when exactly are these upcoming trips? Are they both trips to see M? T? some of each?

And these will be no-PIV trips, but the batch of trips after that might be PIV's? Are you personally hoping that'll be permitted soon? Like, real soon, or what? a month? a year? Do you think you'll ever need it to be permitted?

With the variety of perspectives available on this thread, I hope you'll be able to assemble a composite picture that works for you. Let us know how thing are going ...

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
And these will be no-PIV trips, but the batch of trips after that might be PIV's? Are you personally hoping that'll be permitted soon? Like, real soon, or what? a month? a year? Do you think you'll ever need it to be permitted?

Kevin, in light of the conversation about ownership, I think permission to fuck is the wrong word/concept to use.

And what position to fuck in...

The way I see it, it's more about loving more than one, and what that means for her life in general. Sharing sex is one aspect of love, but not the only one. The emotional entanglement has more of an impact, I'd say, than this or that place your genitals go on your lover's body. Heck, in some ways, oral sex is more intimate than penis in vagina, imo.

I think her husband is still coming to terms with the concept of loving more than one, no matter what she and these potentials do sexually, as shown by his "Aren't I enough for you?" questions.
 
At this point in time, I'm going to enjoy the upcoming visit at the end of the year for what it is...spending the New Year holiday with "M" and our mutual friends (I'm staying at the friends' house, not with "M"). Even if it turns out that we discover we both have feelings for each other (hey a girl can dream can't she), I wouldn't want us to rush into anything too physical right away at the risk of ruining a really close friendship of a few years in one fell swoop.

"A" is a little hard to read at the moment...sometimes I think he's finally coming around to accepting that this changes nothing between us except the exclusivity. Then just a little while later he'll get all morose saying he doesn't want our marriage to end. I totally get that he's confused and I'm doing everything I can to help him through it before there is any perceived threat (aka the "visits") imminent. He has emphatically stated that he doesn't want to be sharing a household with any metamours (heh, don't even get me started on THAT term...he refuses to acknowledge ANY sort of relationship to either "M" or "T" and has asked me to stop using that word) -- that thought never even crossed my mind as even a remote possibility. Neither "M" nor "T" would ever consider dual citizenship or even becoming an ex-pat, nor would I -- we're all a bit set in our respective "middle age" ways.

"A" is also having a hard time understanding how I could divide my love among three (or more) men. In his mono-oriented mind, all humans have a finite capacity for love, and he'd rather have my entire allotment devoted to him than to have to give up any part of his portion to "M" or "T" (or anyone else who might come along later on, God forbid). He sees my growing relationships outside the marriage making his portion grow smaller and smaller, fearing that eventually another metamour's "allotted portion" grows bigger until "A" is out of the picture entirely. I've tried to tell him that that's not how I'm wired, but he can't get past his understanding of love. It may all just come down to a matter of how much trust there is between us (at least that's my hope).
 
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My husband hated the word "metamour." It sounds like your husband prefers a DADT model. Your husband might never understand. You have two different views of relationship structures, and they are conflicting.

You have to realise this is a massive change for him, and this is not what he signed up for. Yes, people change, and change is a beautiful thing. With this new territory, there are things that he has to be okay with now that he never envisioned. You being gone for days or weeks with these other men, sleeping alone, comforting you if you are upset behind one of them (my friend calls it being an emotional tampon), possibly sharing holidays or birthday celebrations with them, you being intimate with them, and if you decide to be out, that means he will be outed as being part of a poly marriage. People can be negative and judgemental of the mono partners in these situations, and it is unfortunate. None of these things were part of what he saw in his future with you. He is probably feeling uncertain, inadequate, and wondering when or if he will get replaced and pushed out of your heart. It is a scary place to be. He is grieving for the loss of what your marriage used to be, and it is like a death. It is the death of something old and the birth of something new and possibly unwanted by him: a poly marriage. Just like when a loved one passes, he has to go through the stages of grief. Giving him time is your best bet.

It is going to take awhile for him to "get his bearings" per se. I would suggest seeking a poly-friendly therapist. They are not the easiest to find, but if you find a decent one, who can see things from both sides of the spectrum, it might help with this transition. I would encourage your husband to join here, too. Maybe he can ask questions that he is afraid to ask you or just have a place to seek support

YouAreHere has a really good blog Her Blog. Her boyfriend is poly, and she is mono. She details some of the things that cross her mind and some of the issues surrounding being the mono partner. It makes for an excellent read, and it goes to show that mono partners and spouses have their high days and low days.

I hope you start a blog, too. It can be cathartic to write out whatever you are feeling. :)
 
Re: love, scarcity, and abundance ... it's really rather simple. Traditional monogamists believe that the supply of romantic love is finite, but polyamorists believe that the supply of romantic love is infinite. If A can at least consider the poly way of viewing this, it might take him one small step closer towards making peace with polyamory. If he can't then alas you'll have to try to agree to disagree, and then just reassure him through your expressions of loving words and loving actions. Anytime he can state his needs to you, that would probably also help. At the least, it'd give you a better idea of whether to share or separate paths in life.

Do grant A that time is *not* an infinite resource, certainly not for mortals, so yes you are asking him to sacrifice something a monogamist paired with another monogamist (assuming there's no affairs) never has to sacrifice: part of their partner's extracurricular time allotment. So you should show A appreciation for that sacrifice that he's making for you.

Re: FullofLove1052's post ... good stuff; good info; good perspective. Take her advice to heart and you'll do well.

Regards,
Kevin T.

P.S. My basic views on PIV can be found where I posted on October 29. Anyone is welcome to review that if it will ease any misunderstandings. I posted again so as to clarify on November 4. Again, welcome for review there, it speaks for itself.

In hopes of better, more complete clarification: It's quite easy for me to imagine why many people get more pleasure/intimacy from oral favors than from PIV.

To explain myself: I don't think A owns PolyMC at all, even if he feels/wishes/thinks he does. Any "permission" solicited of him would be pure indulgence on PolyMC's part (to ease his possible feelings of everything he ever knew or was taught falling apart on him). Don't need permission, don't even need an agreement. You make your choices and if your relationship with A still weathers his own storm then great. Obviously he needs to learn to trust you.

I'm all about the emotional landscape at hand and have no problem agreeing to addressing that before bothering with sex, and to the reality that sex often has no part in a particular poly relationship. Usually romance does, but some even disagree with that (which is too semantic for my blood but that's way off-topic). I certainly get that the emotional obstacles are the crux of the problem for PolyMC (and A).

It seems to me that PIV has been discussed at length in this thread already, so if we're now moving past it (and PolyMC is too), then I'll belabor it no further. If someone has further questions I should answer about it, let me know and I'll do my best.
 
Have you spoken to your husband about time constraints? kdt26417 brings up a good point; love is infinite, but the time in which to express said love is finite.

There's a lot of talk about boundaries and agreements; well, one boundary and one agreement you entered into was monogamy and commitment, and now the difficulty is that you want to change that boundary and agreement.

You're married, and the cornerstone of that arrangement is one husband, one wife, for a lifetime. That's not a defense, nor an attack, that's just the reality of how you and your husband started this adventure together.

So the question to solve is how do you change the arrangement and reset the boundaries without losing your husband? Tolerate is one way to think of it; what will he tolerate, and what will he himself accept, and what can he himself do? This thread has mostly been about your wants/needs and your relationship with your husband.

He hasn't had a chance to chime in, so it's all hearsay. Is he fulfilled in your relationship? I know in mine I was, but part of it is that I chose to dedicate all my attention, that might normally be spread amongst friends, family, lovers (aka, the polyfamily/tribe) towards my wife (Please, on this forum).

It wasn't wrong or right, it was just what I did. It got more intense after my dad died because my tribe shrank, and after my brother moved to Texas because he had his own life to live too.

This forum has helped (a crutch, maybe) because now I have in the last 24 hours read/written/seen a dozen other people like me, or like my wife, and I don't have to be alone in my emotions.
 
Thanks for that "bit of logic" my friend; :); I like it.

Re:
"There's a lot of talk about boundaries and agreements; well, one boundary and one agreement you entered into was monogamy and commitment, and now the difficulty is that you want to change that boundary and agreement."

True! True. Yet another sacrifice A deserves credit for.

Re:
"Is he fulfilled in your relationship?"

That is to say, is he fulfilled in it *per se;* that is, when not counting the M and T factor. Were M and T "stripped away" from the equation, could A at least then honestly say that he was truly fulfilled in his relationship with you?

No owie intended; purely wondering.
Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Lots more to think about indeed (and not to worry, I don't feel attacked or berated)...

When I first realized I was wired as a poly I was already 7 years into my second marriage (with "A"). I'll admit that my discovery had been spawned by a severe disparity in our sex drives...I've been told that I'm "insatiable" for as long as I can remember..."A" not so much as he hadn't had a lot of experience with women, and we met a year after his first marriage of 14 years ended. He can go for weeks, sometimes months without. When he got a second job a couple of years ago, it was mostly night shift so there's been even less time that we spent together, although we've been making a conscious effort lately to spend more quality time together on his days off.

One of the first things I struggled with once I realized that I was a poly is that I had made a lifetime commitment to "A", which included monogomy in the vows ("forsaking all others"). Neither one of us wants to end the marriage--we both believe in our bond and there is very little, if anything, that could break it. Part of what's helping him to cope with the situation is that both "M" and "T" would be, at best, long-distance relationships in which we'd only be in each others' presence a couple of times a year. So while there isn't an imminent trip in the next few days, he can almost be in denial about the whole thing (he's definitely in the DADT category). Also, I have yet to "act on" my desires with either "M" or "T" -- I know that "A" really appreciates that we're discussing all this beforehand so that he's not also dealing with a sense of betrayal had this happened after the fact. And I'm still at a point where if he is completely insistent that this can't happen, I can remain living as a mono and none of the men would be hurt.

So in a nutshell, I guess that we're still in discussions about relaxing the "sexual exclusivity" element of our marriage (nothing else would change). And in answer to the latest questions, "A" has told me that I fulfill everything he needs and he has no desire to make any "special" friendships outside the marriage. Maybe because he had always expected that I felt the same, this is all throwing him a real curve ball. I would have liked to disclose this to him early on, but I didn't even know for sure myself until quite recently. (In my early adulthood and between marriages, I was something of a "serial monogomist".)

Another question I've been pondering lately: does anyone ever really *know* that they have a poly mindset before they suddenly find themselves, as I did, in a situation where you realize that you truly romantically love more than one (despite everything that a strict religious upbringing has taught you about the way relationships *should* be)?

As far as time constraints go, we pretty much have until Christmas to come to some sort of agreement as the trip to visit "M" and friends is shortly after that. And "A" understands and accepts that any "veto power" he might have in the beginning of (or before) an outside relationship is no longer valid once the outside relationship has begun in full force...but I'm nowhere near to that point yet. "A" is somewhat comforted by the fact that "M" has not shown any reciprocal interest as of yet...and there's nothing indicating that would change on this upcoming trip.
 
Another question I've been pondering lately: does anyone ever really *know* that they have a poly mindset before they suddenly find themselves, as I did, in a situation where you realize that you truly romantically love more than one (despite everything that a strict religious upbringing has taught you about the way relationships *should* be)?
This thread recently discussed just that question. The answer seems to be a resounding "Yes".
 
Hi PolyMC,

I can see the difficulties with the disparities in "amount of libido" in you versus A; just one of the reasons why poly might be helpful to you, perhaps.

I understand that you and A are kind of in limbo at the moment as to how well you can agree to this poly thing: DADT and LDR and many other factors. You just do the best you can do, and focus on the here and now.

Re:
"I guess that we're still in discussions about relaxing the 'sexual exclusivity' element of our marriage (nothing else would change)."

Ah ... and what of the "emotional/romantic exclusivity" element? (Not trying to poke you here; just curious.)

Interesting; sounds like if the "poly question" were removed from the equation, A would be happy as a clam in the relationship he has with you. That's actually a good sign!

Re:
"Does anyone ever really *know* that they have a poly mindset before they suddenly find themselves, as I did, in a situation where you realize that you truly romantically love more than one?"

In my poly forum experience, it really varies from person to person. Some people "decide that they're poly first," and then look for (a) poly partner/s. But it's possibly *slightly* more common (okay but given the Choosing Polyamory Before Identifying a Second Lover? thread, my jury's out) for people to say, "Uh-oh, I'm in love with a married person, now what do I do," or something like that, and then (often with the help of Google and whatnot), discover that "polyamory" is the "emotion" that they're "experiencing." This is often because people just don't hear about poly until they're "up against the wall."

As polyamory becomes more widely-known, and a part of mainstream culture, I'm sure more and more people will decide they'd like to live polyamously first, before they set out to implement the desire. Which seems to be a good thing.

Such is my perspective for what it's worth.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
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