Greetings

Several earlier posts in this thread include suggestions that sex is somehow primary or core or central to polyamory. This is false. The core of polyamory is about love, not sex. Polyamorous people generally see sex as one way of expressing and experiencing love, and choose not to stand in the way when someone they love wants to share love with others -- including sexual expression and experience.

I think of it like this.: Most monogamous couples do not stand in the way of "allowing" their lover to have friendships with others, including loving ones -- or even passionately loving ones. (Remember, passion does not equal sex!)
Jack and Jill don't generally want to draw a line, preventing their partner from, say, enjoying dinner and a movie with a friend. These are shared pleasures, right? But Jack and Jill, being monogamous, draw the line at sex. That's not allowed with others. Are we to think that loving "platonic" friends aren't sharing love while sharing (expressing/experiencing) a dinner and a movie? All activities shared with a loving friend can be expressions and experiences of love, including sex.

Sex, like dinner and a movie ... or a hike in the woods or a picnic in the park... are shared pleasures. Ideally, there would be love experienced and expressed in all of them. Love is what's central and core, here. Not sex.

Sex cannot be the central theme of human relating. Love must be that central theme, or it isn't quite fully human relating. Love is the central theme of human existence. >>> continued >>>
 
SONG

by Allan Ginsberg

The weight of the world
is love.
Under the burden
of solitude,
under the burden
of dissatisfaction

the weight,
the weight we carry
is love.

Who can deny?
In dreams
it touches
the body,
in thought
constructs
a miracle,
in imagination
anguishes
till born
in human--
looks out of the heart
burning with purity--
for the burden of life
is love,

but we carry the weight
wearily,
and so must rest
in the arms of love
at last,
must rest in the arms
of love.

No rest
without love,
no sleep
without dreams
of love--
be mad or chill
obsessed with angels
or machines,
the final wish
is love
--cannot be bitter,
cannot deny,
cannot withhold
if denied:

the weight is too heavy

--must give
for no return
as thought
is given
in solitude
in all the excellence
of its excess.

The warm bodies
shine together
in the darkness,
the hand moves
to the center
of the flesh,
the skin trembles
in happiness
and the soul comes
joyful to the eye--

yes, yes,
that's what
I wanted,
I always wanted,
I always wanted,
to return
to the body
where I was born.
 
I want to tell all of you how much I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.

I am sticking my toes into the water. I have no idea where this is going for me.
 
Several earlier posts in this thread include suggestions that sex is somehow primary or core or central to polyamory. This is false. The core of polyamory is about love, not sex. Polyamorous people generally see sex as one way of expressing and experiencing love, and choose not to stand in the way when someone they love wants to share love with others -- including sexual expression and experience.

I think of it like this.: Most monogamous couples do not stand in the way of "allowing" their lover to have friendships with others, including loving ones -- or even passionately loving ones. (Remember, passion does not equal sex!)
Jack and Jill don't generally want to draw a line, preventing their partner from, say, enjoying dinner and a movie with a friend. These are shared pleasures, right? But Jack and Jill, being monogamous, draw the line at sex. That's not allowed with others. Are we to think that loving "platonic" friends aren't sharing love while sharing (expressing/experiencing) a dinner and a movie? All activities shared with a loving friend can be expressions and experiences of love, including sex.

Sex, like dinner and a movie ... or a hike in the woods or a picnic in the park... are shared pleasures. Ideally, there would be love experienced and expressed in all of them. Love is what's central and core, here. Not sex.

Sex cannot be the central theme of human relating. Love must be that central theme, or it isn't quite fully human relating. Love is the central theme of human existence. >>> continued >>>

This is the concept that I'm having trouble with. I feel like I get what you're saying, but I'm not quite to where I get the whole concept. Bear with me, I'm just on the edge of understanding but can't quite get over.

Coming from a monogamous mindset, sex is something that married couples share exclusively between themselves. It's supposed to be special, something that only they do together. It is not casual in a loving relationship. Perhaps I'm unusual. I find sex reassuring, comforting, a physical connection with someone I love. It's a bonding exercise. If I allow my husband to have sex with someone else, then he is bonding with them in a very special way that is supposed to be something special we do between the two of us. Have you ever been hurt that a friend shared something special that was supposed to be between the two of you with someone else? Even something as small as a trip to the mall? Well, let's establish that I have. How then am I to reconcile the fact that this one act, this thing that I share only with someone I love and have no desire to share with anyone that I do not have deep, committed feelings for, how do I accept that he shares it with someone else? I feel like I must accept that he either 1) feels strongly for the other woman, which makes me ask, where does that leave me? or 2) gives away casually what is so deeply important to me, which makes me wonder where that leaves our relationship.
 
I feel like I must accept that he either 1) feels strongly for the other woman, which makes me ask, where does that leave me? or 2) gives away casually what is so deeply important to me, which makes me wonder where that leaves our relationship.
Or (3), you just experience things differently from him in this area. I think you are under no obligation to feel something other than you do feel. What makes someone basically polyamorous is that they can say and mean: "I can love/be loved by more than one person to the same extent that I can love/be loved by just one person", and/or "I can love/feel loved by someone who doesn't love only me, to the same extent that I can if s/he does love only me".

I've no way of telling this for certain, but my intuition is that some people move around in this spectrum - between monamory (I hate the word monogamy!) and polyamory - and some people are where they are on that spectrum and are not going to shift; kind of similar to sexual orientation.

It may be that you are not open to being in a polyamorous relationship out of fear, insecurity, or conditioning (or that you are not open to this particular polyamorous relationship, because of who is involved) - but it may also just be that you're a one-person person. It's not easy to tell, any more than it's easy to tell what your sexual orientation is whilst under internal/external pressure to be this or that (with moral judgements swiftly on the heels of this or that).

Take your time, and be prepared to want something different from what your partner wants - that's the nature of being you rather than them :).
 
" ... sex is something that married couples share exclusively between themselves. It's supposed to be special, something that only they do together. It is not casual in a loving relationship."

It's really interesting to be where I am about these things at the moment and look back at how I was when I was with my first lover, a man I was partnered with for about 5 years. I was much more conventional and mainstream in my thinking and feeling about love/sex then, and "monamorous" (thanks, Yoxi). I was exploratory and innovative in other realms, but took my love-style right off the mainstream shelf (well, aside from the fact that it was a same-sex union).

Then, I would have been devastated if my lover, M, even wanted to love another man (he wasn't attracted to women in this way) as well as me "romantically" or in the love+sex fashion. I look back at that and think, Man, was I insecure!

Fast forward to the present. I've been with Kevin for 12 years now. We're both polyamorous in spirit, though neither of us has another lover besides. We're very communicative with each other about our attraction to other guys/gals, and neither of us believes our opening to love another will in any way diminish the love we have for one another. If anything, it will probably enhance our love-life -- as we each have need for kinds of connection we can't have with each other due to our differences (e.g., I'm a high verbal person and Kevin is not; he can't make art-of-conversation as I'd like to have with an intimate.) ... [I don't make him bad or wrong for being a low-verbal type, for he offers so much that I do want and need -- including solid, stable love and companionship in outdoor recreation activities we both love.]

In my youth, I automatically assimilated from my culture -- without critical reflection! -- (tv, movies, radio, love songs...) that the need or longing to share love+sex ("romantic love") equalled, among other things, anxiety that my beloved might pursue a love+sex attraction toward someone else. Of course, in those days, that meant abandoning me--for as the song goes "loving both of you is breaking all the rules".

(I've been in lifelong recovery from abandonment trauma!, so abandonment equals death, or worse, somewhere in my psyche.)

[Advertisement: "Try New Amazing Abandon Mints brand wild abandon stimulators!, guaranteed to freshen your breath and catalyze ecstatic naked dancing in public places!"]

Okay, back to the fast forward: I have roughly zero fear of abandonment in my relationship with Kevin at this time, especially abandonment resulting from his falling in love with another -- I'd honestly delight and rejoice in and welcome his having another lover (provided they practice great caution as not to pass along any STDs--or STIs for the brits here)! How exciting it would be for our family to take branches! I guess I feel so secure in this relationship, and in my psycho-spiritual path/evolution, that expansive experimentation and risk-taking makes me feel alive, rather than threatened. Also, as much as I love Kevin, I know I can live and be happy without him. Taking risks is different in such an atmosphere. I'm not motivated much by fear in intimate relationships any more. I'm motivated by growing in love, joy, freedom, peace.... I'm willing to risk EVERYTHING to keep such growth going, and polyamory does that for me/us. Also, it's exciting! It's adventurous! Even though I have a solid love relationship, I can have the adventure of being open to another! and I won't be abandoned by my lover if I do.

(It nearly happened last spring/summer, and Kevin watched as "R" and I engaged in a lot of snuggling and deep kissing. He didn't abandon me or rage at me for loving this other man -- but he also didn't talk about his feelings with me much, as he is that low-verbal sort I mentioned.)


"Perhaps I'm unusual. I find sex reassuring, comforting, a physical connection with someone I love. It's a bonding exercise. If I allow my husband to have sex with someone else, then he is bonding with them in a very special way that is supposed to be something special we do between the two of us."

Other than a desire to have such a bond be exclusive, you and I are precisely on the same page, here. I feel all of that in snuggling and in sex, and wouln't give it up for anything -- certainly not in exchange for "casual sex" (which I don't do). I CAN share love of this sort with two or three people. Probably not more than three, as it would get too complicated, I think.

In any case, if Kevin were to find another lover, I'd not feel that he was giving that other something which was properly mine, exclusively, and I would not fear that it would diminish the love he has for me. Odds are, it would help him open to further love, generally, and I'd get to enjoy basking in that warmth! I hope he does find/meet another!
 
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smilnlol, I've realised that what concerns me about your story is not about polyamory, it's about choice.

What I feel is that if you choose to do what someone else wants out of fear of losing them, that's not really a choice - and you might that way lose something else very precious, that's uniquely your own.

Maybe I'm just projecting my 'stuff' onto you - I married someone because they wanted me to, knowing deep down that I was doing it out of fear - and in the end, I had to wake up and take back to me what I'd given away, and it was more painful for both of us by then.
 
Thank you, Yoxi and JRiverMartin, for taking the time and patience to deal with my questions. I'm not sure I quite understand, but I'm very motivated and I'm trying.

smilnlol, I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread, but I did think that my questions might be related to some you might have.
 
i love that you pointed out to lemondrop that she might be experiencing things differently yoxi. I explain it to monoPVCG that I have the same amount of love for him as I do for my husband. he just expanded my heart by allowing me to love him so much... kind of like the Grinch that stole Christmas. The more I love people and they allow me to show them love the more I have to give... my heart get bigger and bigger. I am more and more happy and feel as if I am spreading it outward and inviting it back. I have always been like that and when I haven't been I am depressed and feel vulnerable and grumpy. This is definitely the way for me.

As for Smilinlol I think that is really the bottom line... choice. Denying someone the choice and allowing choice to be denied to you is perhaps a recipe for disaster.

I'd love to know how both of you work it out smilinlol and lemondrop. Please come back and tell us some time? I think it so important to learn from one another and am so interested in how you manage.... of course part of it is that I have genuine concern for your well being also.
 
Just so we are clear my Gorgeous Redpepper :) I don't have to understand everything about you to love you! And I love you madly!! I just have to accept the gift that you, being true to yourself, has given me...now I'm outa here..this place freaks me out LOL!
 
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Welcome to the boards.

Sorry it's taken me a while to join in on your thread--I've been out camping with a whole bunch of interesting people and even a few dirty hippies.

Why do we need other people if our relationship is healthy and satisfying?

Why do people have more than one child if the experience of having the first is healthy and satisfying?

If you have more than one child, do you love the last any less than the first?

Think back to the relationships that you've had. Was each relationship identical to all the others? Or did each lover share a bond with you that wasn't replicated by the other pairings you've lived?

I'll wager that, like most people, your relationships have each been individual in flavor and texture. Why, then, would you expect a new relationship to somehow make the one you have cease to be as unique as it is?

One important aspect of poly living that you appear to be missing is a little thing called "compersion," or taking joy in your lover's happiness. In poly tangles, we take joy in our partners finding yet more love that increases their joy and enriches their lives.

I just don't want to pretend sex isn't a driving factor.

You don't have to pretend. Sex isn't generally a driving factor.

If sex were a driving factor in what we do, we wouldn't get involved with multiple relationships and all of the added work that comes with them. Sex is so much easier to get outside of relationships--we could simply take up swinging or pretend to be mono and cheat or simply remain single and always play the field. Or, for me, I'd simply hire a whore.

The sex is an outgrowth of the relationships. I didn't alter my budget to travel out of state often just so I could have sex. I didn't spend hours providing emotional support to my girlfriend when her teenagers were making life hell just so I could get sex. I didn't spend time listening to two women nag at me to take better care of myself just so I could get sex.

Sex is easy to get from my wife. Sex is easy to get picking up women at a local bar. Sex is easy to get by calling an escort--and that'd cost less than what I spent traveling and helping provide for that second household. Sex doesn't drive me--nor most poly folk--to a new relationship.

It's the relationships that drives me to stretch myself too thin on some occasions. It's the relationships that lead me to provide emotional support to two women who have emotional crises at the same time. It's the relationships that drive me to further relationships.

And part of loving freely and allowing the relationships to grow as they will is the reality that they may--likely will--involve sex. To mistake that outgrowth of the living and loving as a driving force involves a serious mistake of perception.

and I guess this life, opening myself to others, scares me. I hate dating : )

I'm with ya there! I'm always scared of growing intimacy with another person, though I always welcome that quiver of fear as part of the dance of life. I've been discarded several times by (now former) lovers and fully realize that it can happen again at any time. I fully accept that risk because the relationships are rewarding, even those that end much sooner than I would like.

Shakespeare claimed it better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. I'm thinking it better to have loved as deeply and often as possible, despite what losses may occur along the way. I don't regret the relationships I've had; I vaguely regret having settled for mono relationships so many times and wonder how many other wonderful relationships I've missed out on because of that.

And I hate dating.
 
I fully expect this not to be a popular comment, but it is again, based on my experience. I am not here to say what others want to hear, but say what my heart and mind have felt.

We don't want popular comments. We want the real thoughts and opinions of real people navigating their way through Life as best they can. Your thoughts and opinions are as valid as anybody else's on here.

It's one of those relationship things...speak to us truly so we may know what is actually happening. :cool:
 
"Sex isn't generally a driving factor".

Sorry my friend.. I have to disagree with you on this point. I've met a fair number of polyamorous people and sex is definitely a driving factor. Without sex you essentially have a deep relationship; which is quite possible in platonic situations.

Respectfully, I think this statement is delusional and avoiding one of the huge benefits of polyamorous relationships, which is experiencing, people in an emotional, spiritual and definitely sexual way. If it wasn't for the sexual aspect, we wouldn't need to call loving other people in this way by a distinct name.

I respect your view and aproach to polyamory, and hope I have not offended. If I have, I sincerely apologize.
 
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I have stayed out of this thread, so Smilnlol could explain what she is going through without interference from me.

She pretty much knows all the logical arguments for polyamory since I have been talking about it for years. I think where she has issues is more on the emotional level. For example, she worries she will not be special if I love someone else. I try to explain how she will be special, but that does not help her feel better about it. It matters more that she feels special instead of her being special. So I am not really sure what to say to this.

She is also not forced into polyamory, but she feels pushed since she knows I would be sad without it. She doesn't want to be the person who makes me sad, so she feels she has little choice in this. She is trying to deal with this trapped feeling.

She also seems to think along the lines of MonoVCPHG. For example, on sex being a driving factor, she sees that it is focus of a lot of poly issues and one of the central acts that separates friends from lovers. However, I see it similar to how a single person would see sex. They will want to date, and they want to be sexually compatible with the person they date. So single people tend to have a focus on sex while they are trying to find a relationship. I find the relationship to be more important, but I know that sexual compatibility makes it so much better.

She understands my views to an extent. For example, she knows it is not all about the sex because I am not trying to get us into swinging. However, that does not make her feel any less that sex is one of the number one reasons to be poly.

I am not sure how things will turn out. I am happy that she is trying to be as accepting as possible about this. I know it causes her grief and I wish I could spare her that.

Anyway, that is my perspective.
 
Reminds me of a song about love I've not heard in at least two decades:

"I't's just like a magic penny
Hold it tight and you won't have any
Lend it, spend it and you'll have so many
They'll roll all over the floor"
 
I think you missed the point I offered. If sex were a driving factor, there are far easier ways to get sex that don't involve the work of a relationship. Sex only becomes a factor within a relationship. Yes, we want the wonderful sex that comes with a wonderful relationship. That, however, doesn't make sex a driving factor to be poly, just an expected outgrowth of a romantic relationship.

And the fact that there are poly folks who engage in deep relationships without sex shows that sex isn't necessary to a deep romantic relationship. That highlights that sex is not a driving factor, necessarily, for becoming poly.

That's also not to say that some folks view it as such. The fact that some do doesn't mean it is a driving factor in general. Some future study may show that such folk are in the majority in the poly community, certainly, which would make support of the notion that sex is a driving factor fully supportable. My experience suggests otherwise.

So, there's no delusion. And, if you read the whole of what I said, you'll find that I don't diminish the importance of sex in any fashion as part of the relationships. I just don't see it as a driving factor any more than I see it as a driving factor in a deep romantic mono relationship. I didn't marry my wife just for sex, nor was it a major consideration--I could get sex without all the work of a relationship and being involved in a relationship has never been necessary to get sex.

Indeed, if sex were a driving force, I suspect one would swing in preference to opening up as poly. I offer that the driving force thus isn't sex, it's the ties of relationship that drives us poly, and sex is just one of many benefits.
 
I've never really liked sex with anyone I didn't want to be close to/with. Seems rather contradictory.
 
Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Maybe the word "sex" should be replaced with "intimate friendship". To me if you are seeking what I consider intimate friendship, you are expecting the inevitable promise of sex. If you find yourself considering a polyamorous relationship with an existing friend, the difference between the deep platonic relationship that may already exist will be the desire and realization of sex.

I have not met anyone that would state they have a polyamorous with someone that they are not, or have been, sexually active with.

It really doesn't matter though. It's only an opinion that has little bearing on my incredible relationship with Redpepper and her husband. I have better areas to focus my attention than trying to understand how each person approaches a polyamorous love style.

I can appreciate most, but don't expect to understand..nor do I expect others to understand mine fully. And trust me..I have some weird issues LOL!!

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions..if we all agreed there wouldn't be a forum!!
 
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I've never really liked sex with anyone I didn't want to be close to/with. Seems rather contradictory.JRM

Indeed, if sex were a driving force, I suspect one would swing in preference to opening up as poly. I offer that the driving force thus isn't sex, it's the ties of relationship that drives us poly, and sex is just one of many benefits. SC

I feel you both are saying basically the same thing but thru different means....the same with Mono.....since we are all in poly, we have been looking for more than just casual sex as swinging or remaining single would provide. Obviously we all need more. We need to experience a different depth, more layers of the onion, so to speak, than the average horny guy out there, just looking for more sex.

I myself, had a 20+ year long platonic relationship with many deep moments that only recently crossed over into a poly situation with this person, my wife and I. The sharing of this love with another person combined with the sexual component significantly enhances the friendship and our lives. Clearly, we wouldn't be in a poly arrangement without the sexual component, however it most definately is the whipped cream and cherry on the top of the overall relationship, not the basis for the friendship or the poly arrangement.
 
very belated Welcome to Smilnlol :)

and wow, so much wonderful advice in just this one thread, thank you all for sharing and passing along advice.

I can't really add anything that hasn't already been said here, but good luck to you hun whatever you decide works best for you.
 
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