quad, friends or is this all going to blow up?

Really, We have been a fourple (quad) now for over 5 years. I still want to know how such a general statement can be made?

Have to agree.. I am in my 3rd year of the same setup, with kids, co parenting and the whole family dynamic.. going strong at this stage with no end in site.

I tend to think people project on others what hasn't or doesn't work for them. So I accept people saying pairing and coupling doesn't work.. *shrugs*..

If you go by this site and others online then 95% (pulling that from my butt) of poly relationships fail. So any poly setup is likely to blow up. Just go in accepting that fact and enjoy the relationships for what they are. Be true to yourself and keep yourself healthy and hopefully your partners will respect that as well..

Thats true for any relationship structure though..
 
Sorry it didn't work out the way you'd hoped. I guess it's good that it was discovered early on that this wasn't going to work.

I wouldn't date someone with a one penis policy anyway

These kinds of rules are indicative of an insecure partner. Insecure partners who are dealing with it by creating rules instead of dealing with it by growing past their insecurity is a good sign that there are choppy waters ahead.

Good call, on your part.
 
These kinds of rules are indicative of an insecure partner. Insecure partners who are dealing with it by creating rules instead of dealing with it by growing past their insecurity is a good sign that there are choppy waters ahead.

Good call, on your part.

totally agree Marcus, thanks. Im glad I found out sooner rather than later, as well as my spouse before he got anymore involved with her
 
The reasons why in my opinion so many poly relationship fail can be summed up by "too many cooks spoil the soup."

Too many have people meddling in relationships that are not their own. My husband has no say what so ever in my relationship with Murf. Just like Murf has no say in what goes on between Butch and I.
 
The reasons why in my opinion so many poly relationship fail can be summed up by "too many cooks spoil the soup."

Too many have people meddling in relationships that are not their own.

Based on the research I made into hundreds of poly setups (I wrote a book on poly) this is not quite true - or at least not in Western Europe. Other parts of the world may be different of course.

The main dynamic I saw in the breakdowns I studied was lack of clear agreements (or agreements that were broken) coupled with poor negotiation and communication skills. Add to that the fact that society doesn't generally support poly configurations. External support is difficult to source when things go pear-shaped and many people simply respond with "I told you it would never work" rather than trying to be helpful.

The main underlying cause for breakdowns was very often that people had expectations and/or ideals that did not match with the reality of their situations. But this is quite human, no?
 
Northhome you are always are pointing out that you have written books on poly and etc, but in reading through your posting history I have not ran across any PERSONAL accounts or experience that you may have. Just what you have claimed to research.

Research has its merit but I am sorry people aren't always completely candid when being interviewed as apart of someone's study.

Just because you have written a book doesn't mean you are an expert. Just like a degree isn't proof that someone truly is educated on their chosen field of study. It just proves that you were able to regurgitate what your teachers wanted you to learn.

For example i have dealt with vet techs straight out of school who think they are ready to conquer the world and know it all. But they are taught in a controlled environment the first time they hit a SNAFU they fall apart. Life has a habit of not following the rules. I would rather learn from someone who has been there done that and has the T-shirt than someone who just has clinical experience.
 
Based on the research I made into hundreds of poly setups (I wrote a book on poly) this is not quite true - or at least not in Western Europe. Other parts of the world may be different of course.

The main dynamic I saw in the breakdowns I studied was lack of clear agreements (or agreements that were broken) coupled with poor negotiation and communication skills.

The main underlying cause for breakdowns was very often that people had expectations and/or ideals that did not match with the reality of their situations. But this is quite human, no?

People having expectations which aren't voiced clearly would certainly cause any relationship to have breakdowns. However, this breakdown is going to happen in any case if the expectations of the people involved are not compatible and certainly when the expectations themselves are unreasonable. In this case, if everyone is very clear and up front at the very beginning then the relationship stops before it starts. If everyone is using muddled and half assed communication then the relationship will fall apart at some point in the future.

Simply expressing an idea clearly does not validate it nor does it ensure that the people who you expect to act in a certain way have any intention of doing so.

I suspect the only types of relationships which fall apart simply due to shitty communication are the ones which never really had any problems to begin with; relationships whose big issues are the minutia of living day to day and getting on each others nerves while doing it.

There is something to be said about the nature of these expectations and the agreements/boundaries/rules built from them. If the expectation is that the people around me are going to change their behavior to suit my insecurity... that expectation will cause problems for all but the most compliant of partners; it will cause me to end the association outright. The crystal clear communication, in this case, simply decided when the relationship would break down, not *if* it was going to break down.

I suppose people can "negotiate" some kind of compromise so that the relationship trudges on and everyone is only a little unhappy.
 
but in reading through your posting history I have not ran across any PERSONAL accounts or experience that you may have.

I have mentioned that I have lived in a triad for 4 years. It's quite drama free so not much to report.

Just what you have claimed to research.

Research has its merit but I am sorry people aren't always completely candid when being interviewed as apart of someone's study.

My co-author is the foremost poly-friendly counselor in The Netherlands. I'd be happy to forward you her details if you'd like to know more. Our data was based on her (and others) case studies. Not interviews.

Just because you have written a book doesn't mean you are an expert.

That's very true. On the other hand the work I have done means that my opinions are not purely subjective.

I'm sorry my information was not of use or interest to you. Feel free to ignore it.
 
I suppose people can "negotiate" some kind of compromise so that the relationship trudges on and everyone is only a little unhappy.

The negotiation I refer to is not about trying to find a "middle way" where all concerned are giving up a bit of their happiness to keep the peace. Instead it's more about creating opportunities for growing relationships, both collectively and as individuals, without destroying the fabric that holds the relationship together.

It's all about moving out of the fabled 'comfort zone' and into growth without tipping over into panic. If people can find a way to support each other in this process it often leads to very healthy, vibrant relationships in my own personal and professional experience.
 
The negotiation I refer to is not about trying to find a "middle way" where all concerned are giving up a bit of their happiness to keep the peace. Instead it's more about creating opportunities for growing relationships, both collectively and as individuals, without destroying the fabric that holds the relationship together.

I'm in favor of challenging worldview and growing intellectually. Having honest and emotionally neutral discussion is a good way to do it - in my relationships it is one of the primary things that winds me up (in the best way possible). I would never call that "negotiation".

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the poetic phrasing "fabric that holds the relationship together" but I suspect this might be what we are disagreeing about.

It's all about moving out of the fabled 'comfort zone' and into growth without tipping over into panic. If people can find a way to support each other in this process it often leads to very healthy, vibrant relationships in my own personal and professional experience.

I have to tell you, every time you flash your resume I laugh. I get why you do it, because you want to explain where your opinion is coming from - but arguments from authority are often going to cause problems with people who are aware of the tactic.

As a natural consequence of having frank and clear discussions about opinions and experiences we have a tendency toward expanding our approach to interpreting the world. On that, you and I agree.

What we don't agree on (as far as I can tell) is that this exposure to new ideas and personal expectations breeds some kind of direct change, as if all a person needs to correct their broken thought processes is for someone to clearly and constructively say "that thought process is broken and here is why". It is probably because I find personal growth to be a personal journey - not a group journey. I've heard many really great opinions in my life and most of the time I disregarded it and moved on with my life, only to come back to learn from it years later.

Clear communication is good, but I think it is only a very small part of a relationship between adults... contrary to the current popular belief.
 
Having honest and emotionally neutral discussion is a good way to do it - in my relationships it is one of the primary things that winds me up (in the best way possible). I would never call that "negotiation".

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the poetic phrasing "fabric that holds the relationship together" but I suspect this might be what we are disagreeing about.

I'm referring to the fact that every relationship has an underlying set of agreements, assumptions and expectations whether spoken or unspoken. This is the "fabric". When or more parties want to change any of these it can happen either unilaterally - "I'm going to take a lover" - or consensually - "What about opening up the relationship?". It is the latter process that may require the skills I am referring to.

I have to tell you, every time you flash your resume I laugh.

I'm delighted to be able to provide you with a source of amusement. :)

I get why you do it, because you want to explain where your opinion is coming from - but arguments from authority are often going to cause problems with people who are aware of the tactic.

Ah, thanks for the heads-up. As I come from a collegiate, rather than adversarial tradition, I often miss the fact that people can ascribe motives incorrectly. Personally I am very interested in knowing where information comes from, and I sometimes mistakenly assume others have the same curiosity. Although opinions can be interesting, I often discount them until I know the person's background.

"I'm sure I can fly a 757" is great, but I'd prefer to see the licence. I know, I'm a bit of a distrustful type...

Simple solution - I can wait until someone asks where my input comes from rather than volunteering it. No problem.

What we don't agree on (as far as I can tell) is that this exposure to new ideas and personal expectations breeds some kind of direct change, as if all a person needs to correct their broken thought processes is for someone to clearly and constructively say "that thought process is broken and here is why".

Rational understanding can be a beginning to change but only real experience and application can effect fundamental shifts in my experience. Some people like to think things through first, and then act. Others do the opposite. Vive la différence!


It is probably because I find personal growth to be a personal journey - not a group journey.

I would have thought that was self-evident.

Clear communication is good, but I think it is only a very small part of a relationship between adults... contrary to the current popular belief.

I agree with you completely. The topic however was about relationship breakdowns and what causes them, and poor communication is a primary culprit in many of them. The reasons for the poor communication are of course myriad, and most of them are not rational.
 
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As I come from a collegiate, rather than adversarial tradition, I often miss the fact that people can ascribe motives incorrectly. Personally I am very interested in knowing where information comes from, and I sometimes mistakenly assume others have the same curiosity. Although opinions can be interesting, I often discount them until I know the person's background.

This is a discussion forum on the world wide webernets. That being the case, someone telling me they are an expert for some reason or another is what I generally discount. For me, it's when a person makes sound assertions with clear and reasonable rationalizations to support them that I actually give their opinions weight.

I agree with you completely. The topic however was about relationship breakdowns and what causes them, and poor communication is a primary culprit in many of them. The reasons for the poor communication are of course myriad, and most of them are not rational.

I don't see how you agree with me completely if you think what I said was not related to the topic. It actually suggests that you and I are not connecting on this discussion at all... a communication breakdown.

Dag made a point that the "one penis policy" and other controlling rules are the cause of most of these breakdowns.

You disagreed and said that poor communication was the cause of relationship breakdowns.

While I don't disagree that communication styles will certainly have an impact on a relationship - if the relationship is founded on broken assumptions that communication merely decides the *when*, not the *if*. I maintain that it is a broken sense of how people should relate to each other on a fundamental level which is the problem, not how well they articulate how the other person should behave. The instinct for many seems to be regulation, control, supervision, restriction, instead of independence, courtesy, and personal accountability. That if people would concern themselves with their own happiness and not with how to control their fellows that they might actually be happier.

Communicate all you want, but if the point of this communication isn't to cast off these managerial ideals of relationships - most of the time I think it's better to just to save your breath :p
 
The reasons why in my opinion so many poly relationship fail can be summed up by "too many cooks spoil the soup."

Too many have people meddling in relationships that are not their own. My husband has no say what so ever in my relationship with Murf. Just like Murf has no say in what goes on between Butch and I.

Dagferi... yes I agree totally.

Our quad came up with a rule from the beginning which we still use religiously... If anyone has a problem which involves the group they are required to SPEAK UP! It sounds simple but its not always easy to upset the apple cart and say something. Problems happened when we could tell someone was having a hard time and spent hours amongst ourselves speculating what the problem may be... which always tends to manufacture other problems... yes, very confusing!

~S
 
That being the case, someone telling me they are an expert for some reason or another is what I generally discount.

Fair enough, and I do the same. Since I never claimed to be an expert this comment however is outside the scope of our current conversation.

What I have done, from time to time, is point out that some of my assertions are backed up by data. I've understood now that you, and some others, find this not to be useful information and if I do this it seems to trigger some issues for some people.

My apologies if this is the case for you, and I've made a note to only provide background data in future if requested. Thank you for your feedback - I've found this conversation most interesting and I share with you the sense of amusement it engenders.

For me, it's when a person makes sound assertions with clear and reasonable rationalizations to support them that I actually give their opinions weight.

Here, too, we agree. If I see a consistent pattern of sound assertions then I become curious as to where they have obtained this knowledge, and often delve deeper. Since you often provide trenchant and concise responses to people I would be curious to know more of what has informed your opinions.

Dag made a point that the "one penis policy" and other controlling rules are the cause of most of these breakdowns.

What I was responding to was her comment:

The reasons why in my opinion so many poly relationship fail can be summed up by "too many cooks spoil the soup."

Too many have people meddling in relationships that are not their own.

I was simply sharing that this is not what I have seen as the direct cause of the failures. However your point:

I maintain that it is a broken sense of how people should relate to each other on a fundamental level which is the problem, not how well they articulate how the other person should behave.

is an excellent one. I do not think we are talking at cross-purposes at all. I have observed the direct cause of the breakdown (the engine blew up) and you are looking for the underlying reason (it wasn't serviced correctly or worse, was poorly designed).

If someone has a controlling style, communicates this clearly, and all the partners agree to it and the relationship style it entails - well, that's their choice. Not my cup of tea, and I certainly agree that creating relationships that free rather than constrict people is much healthier.
 
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Advice/Opinion: A couple dating another couple is usually a bad idea. Too many points of failure. Keep the friendship and save the drama.

Sorry. I haven't even read the whole thread yet. But wanted to break in and say while this may generally be true, it isn't always the case. My husband and I have been in a very strong poly (polyfidelitous) relationship with another couple for well over 2 years now. As the relationships deepen we are beginning to have a little challenge as we try to find our real places in each others lives. But 99.9% is great and I never want to give up what we have.
 
Sorry. I haven't even read the whole thread yet. But wanted to break in and say while this may generally be true, it isn't always the case. My husband and I have been in a very strong poly (polyfidelitous) relationship with another couple for well over 2 years now. As the relationships deepen we are beginning to have a little challenge as we try to find our real places in each others lives. But 99.9% is great and I never want to give up what we have.

Agreed it's possible to have a successful quad, or even more. The difficulty is finding four developed and mature people to inhabit the same space at once. It's rare.
 
Agreed it's possible to have a successful quad, or even more. The difficulty is finding four developed and mature people to inhabit the same space at once. It's rare.

I could agree with you more after this experience, while three of us were like "hey this could work" the fourth totally blew up and now we arent even friends anymore. It wasnt just the quad thing either, its not like anyone waas "insisting" on that, but since we hadnt known the one penis policy this guy was livid my spouse was into his. so, bye bye friendship
 
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