Alternatives to making "rules"

it seems to me you want to keep a really short leash on your gf and in ways that are somewhat unrealistic or a tad overbearing.

Sorry, I disagree.

I don't know why it's necessary that she call you after every date.

Because we both want it?

Why isn't it enough to know she's dating other people and will inform you about it if and when she is moved to do so?

Because that's not how we work? When I go on dates she wants to talk afterward and hear even more detail than I do.
As long as when she's with you, you have her full attention?
I don't. :D I'm in her bed but she's currently chatting with the new boy online.
Also, do you see other people, too? That might help relieve some of your worrying about her.
Just a few awkward dates. :/ My other thread is about that.

But again, this is not why I created this thread. Maybe I should create another thread for people to criticize my girlfriend and me?
 
But again, this is not why I created this thread. Maybe I should create another thread for people to criticize my girlfriend and me?

Why DID you create this thread then? It's in a discussion area, not in a blog area, so people are allowed to criticize. You keep dancing around this issue of how you have rules but don't want to call them rules, and she's breaking the rules, and you want us to tell you why you have them and what the "consequences" should be. It's like you're throwing little bits and pieces of information out there and people are responding and you're getting offended.

What are you looking for from us exactly? If you don't like the answers you're getting, ask some different fucking questions.
 
We have one rule. It is a rule that applied to mono and poly relationships equally.
Safe Sex.
If Safe Sex does not occur, and I find out about it, unspeakable consequences will arise.

Oh, Shannon has expressed a preference I don't sleep with any of their relatives (have to adopt a look but don't touch attitude here, a particular cousin is VERY nice to look at). It is not a "rule", but it is something I shall respect.

A long list of rules would just be confusing. And sometimes rules are harder to follow for other parties. I am better at telling Shannon where I am and what time I am due home. I am naturally more organized (and have a car so don't rely on public transport, and always have credit on my phone!). Having a rule stating that I must be told where/when/who would just result in grief.

If rules are being broken frequently, more conversation is needed. And a consideration of compromises for both sides.
 
I feel like if you're not going to break up over rule-breaking (and I probably wouldn't unless it was really egregious), then what's the point in having them?

Well, there you go. I'm not sure the thinking "these are the rules we have set up and if they are broken, punishment will follow" is very useful or workable in relationships. If you want to have that, then you'll have to go through with whatever you want the punishment to be. You've already stated that you won't break up over something minor. But if you try to punish somebody you're in relationship with you'll hurt both of you (say, not talking to her; she won't get to talk to you and will possibly feel hurt but you won't get to talk with her either). Plus, it's sort of something you wouldn't want or need in adult relationships, don't you think?

Maybe you could try to let go of some of the "lesser rules" altogether. If it's something you both want, like calling each other after your dates then you'll do it anyway, right? So you don't really need the rule. And if it's something only one of you wants and the other isn't able or willing to do, then maybe it's better to look for a compromise you can both agree to; thus making it an agreement and not a rule (although that may be semantics to you).
 
Gosh, CC, in reading through this thread and seeing your rules and the rationales behind them, it seems to me you want to keep a really short leash on your gf and in ways that are somewhat unrealistic or a tad overbearing. It doesn't surprise me that she's broken them.

I think that if you two have agreed to be polyamorous and open, that there has to be some leeway for the unexpected to happen. You say you want information about what's been going on with a guy before she hooks up with him, so that you don't have any surprises because that feel like cheating to you. But how about the possibility that her life is her own and she doesn't need to report back to you every little flirtation that happens. AND instead of wanting some sort of insurance against surprises, accept that there will be surprises. Your feeling hurt by her spontaneously getting together with a guy without you knowing about it beforehand is totally on YOU. She is not hurting you; she is being herself and living her life while you are choosing to feel hurt by it.

Well... Cindie, I can actually relate to cuddles as far as that unexpected hookup his gf had, when she told him (cuddles) she just "happened to bump into" a guy from OKC, when the reality was, she was out clubbing with friends, texting with OKC guy all night, got drunk and met up with him at 3AM! I know I'd feel awful if miss pixi did something like that, and lied/downplayed it... "Oh, we just bumped into each other." When caught in that lie, "Oh, it wasn't a 2nd date, just a continuation of our first one." Yeah, right.
 
. . . she told him (cuddles) she just "happened to bump into" a guy from OKC, when the reality was, she was out clubbing with friends, texting with OKC guy all night, got drunk and met up with him at 3AM! I know I'd feel awful if miss pixi did something like that, and lied/downplayed it... "Oh, we just bumped into each other."

Perhaps the rules feel so restrictive to her that she thought the only way to handle it was to lie, like being backed into a corner and not feeling like she has the freedom to be as open as she wants to be! When someone keeps breaking rules and apologizing, breaking rules and apologizing, over and over, obviously the rules don't work for that person. But a lot of times someone like that will agree to those rules because they're afraid of losing their partner if they don't. She hasn't stood up for herself enough in an assertive, direct way, but is clearly letting him know what she wants in a passive way. It sounds like she lied about it so as not to hurt his feelings, but she did the thing in the first place because she can't easily abide by his restrictions. I think some re-negotiations and assessment of what can be reasonably expected could help both of them.
 
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Oh, Shannon has expressed a preference I don't sleep with any of their relatives (have to adopt a look but don't touch attitude here, a particular cousin is VERY nice to look at). It is not a "rule", but it is something I shall respect.

Is that just something that's been discussed verbally?

A long list of rules would just be confusing.

Yes, unless you're lawyers or into Nomic. :)

And sometimes rules are harder to follow for other parties.

That's a good point. Agreements can be asymmetrical.

I'm not sure the thinking "these are the rules we have set up and if they are broken, punishment will follow" is very useful or workable in relationships. If you want to have that, then you'll have to go through with whatever you want the punishment to be.

Agreed. But then what? You just state your... "wishes" and if the other person doesn't respect them, you.... talk about it?

Maybe you could try to let go of some of the "lesser rules" altogether. If it's something you both want, like calling each other after your dates then you'll do it anyway, right? So you don't really need the rule.

Well, it has to be stated in some way or we won't know that we both want it.

(Yeah, that's certainly not a rule, just something we've agreed to do, and not even universally. "I won't be back until late, do you still want me to call after?")

thus making it an agreement and not a rule (although that may be semantics to you).
This thread is intended to be about semantics; about the way we talk about and enforce rules/boundaries/agreements/whatever.
 
Rules, boundaries, blah deblahs. It seems you're asking about semantics, but you're talking about desires.

The simple truth is that people want different levels of rules (guidelines, boundaries, whatever). Sometimes those levels are pretty close. It sounds like you and your gf are not close on the desire-for-rules. I suspect some of your anxiety stems from this disparity. After all, if she wanted rules like you do, would you be her talking to us about semantics? No.

So you two have differing rules-desire levels. Thus is neither good nor bad. It's how you react to it that matters. Guess what? Getting anxious about rules... Not good. Forcing rules... Not good. But neither is abandoning rules.

The alternative to making rules is being clear about what you want, what you need, and how you feel to the point where your partner can accurately predict how you would respond to a situation. Then, if the partner is respectful, you likely have minimal problems. If your partner is not respectful, then the issue is either what you need versus what she can provide or the lack of respect. In order to be clear you must be proactive and speak in concrete terms. No hazy, wishy-washy bullshit. If you can't put into words what you need, then don't get your panties in a knot over not getting whatever mysterious thing it was you didn't articulate.

Frankly, it's not clear if you're actually willing to accept her having the freedom to be poly or open without your preconditions (rules, guidelines, consequences, procedures, methodologies, practices, instructions, charts, diagrams, etc.). It seems an awful lot like you're wanting more from her than she's giving you. It would follow then that trying to find ways to apply rules to her is a tactic to inject more control rather than just stating what you really feel. What is it that you actually want? What's the gap between where you are now and where you want ti be?
 
But then what? You just state your... "wishes" and if the other person doesn't respect them, you.... talk about it?

It's not a one way street, or it should be.

1. You communicate clearly what it is you want, and what it is you need. You need to tell her and she needs to understand what you mean. This alone doesn't obligate her to anything and you shouldn't expect it to. Your goal shouldn't be to try to control her. She will do what she most wants to do; but by expressing your needs and wishes you make sure she is able to take them into consideration.

2. She should express what she thinks about your needs and wishes. She doesn't have to agree to anything she doesn't want to. Are you expecting her to agree to everything? Do you ever take a critical look at your wishes; what motivates them? Is she allowed to do that? It is her responsibility to speak up, if she feels like a need/want of yours is such that she can't or won't do that. Otherwise she's being dishonest. However, it is your mutual responsibility to create an environment within your relationship where you both can do that.

3. If she doesn't respect your agreements (/rules), you should do a lot of thinking and talking around WHY. What part of the above process isn't working? Are you not clear in what you want/need? Didn't she understand you?

If your communication worked, did she expect herself to be able to do something and agreed, and then failed at that? That's called a mistake, which she should learn from and perhaps not make that agreement again. Or did she agree to something, she knew she wouldn't keep. That's called lying and you should be alarmed. If she lied, WHY is that? Is it because she is afraid of you leaving her if she voices her opinion? Is it because you expect her to always do everything you wish, i.e. she has to agree to everything? Or is it because she doesn't care about what you want or what you feel, has no respect for you, and only thinks about herself? Or some other option I didn't come to think about?

When you find out what the reason is, you can decide what to do about the issue. Some of them are things you can work on, some of them she needs to work on, some are common problems. Very possibly you both need to do some work to make it work. Good luck. :)
 
I don't think there is anything wrong at all with agreeing to things like calling after dates, asking your partner to let you know if somebody they are chatting with is talking with them occasionally or frequently, if it's flirty or sexual, etc. If requests like this are made for reasons other than jealousy or fear I don't see why there is any need to examine them any closer than if I asked my husband to let me know when we ran out of milk, and then expected him to tell me when we ran out of milk if he said he would. I find it useful information to know. I feel happier when I don't open the fridge and find no milk. I don't expect that he will follow through 100% of the time, but I appreciate the times when he does. Seriously I'm bad at analogies but...

It's also OK for a person to want to be independent and autonomous. Nycindie says "But how about the possibility that her life is her own and she doesn't need to report back to you every little flirtation that happens." I do feel that she is saying her way is right therefore your way is wrong, but don't let how other people choose to do poly make you feel there is anything wrong with how you are doing it. People get to make their own agreements and design their own relationships to suit their wants and needs.

If a partner agrees to keep me in the loop willingly, then I expect to be kept in the loop. If they want to not keep me in the loop, they need to say so, and not be passive aggressive about it by telling me one thing and doing another.

I operate along your lines a lot more, I don't like surprises, I ask my husband for X, Y and Z along the lines of communication about what is going on in his relationships, if he agrees, then that's great. There have been a things he knew that he couldn't/wouldn't do and told me so, and I accept that. There have been things he has agreed to do and then failed to do. If he doesn't follow through a couple times on giving me information I've asked to be hearing from him, I realize that we need to revisit the subject and probably renegotiate. It tends to be a learning process for us both where we can figure out what is really important to the other person, and why, and it is always an interesting conversation.

In a relationship people have the right to ask for ANYTHING. They also have the right to say NO to anything. I have to say to my husband often that the only way to make agreements that will work for both of us is
"I say what I want"
"You say what you want"
"We compromise" (if we want different things that is).

Just make sure your girlfriend is doing the saying what she wants part. Does she ever say that she doesn't want to give you something you've asked for? Does she just agree to what you ask for all time without realizing that she doesn't have to, and telling you she wants something different? For us the problems have come up when the following happens.
"I say what I want"
"He agrees because it sounds reasonable, without taking the time to ponder and figure out if it's what he wants or not"
"Agreement doesn't get followed because there wasn't a meeting of the minds and necessary compromise"

No idea if that was helpful at all or not, operating on little sleep here!
 
I don't think there is anything wrong at all with agreeing to things like calling after dates, asking your partner to let you know if somebody they are chatting with is talking with them occasionally or frequently, if it's flirty or sexual, etc. . . . It's also OK for a person to want to be independent and autonomous. Nycindie says "But how about the possibility that her life is her own and she doesn't need to report back to you every little flirtation that happens." I do feel that she is saying her way is right therefore your way is wrong . . .

CERTAINLY NOT! No, no, no, not at all. Never did I assert that CC's way of doing poly is wrong and mine is right, nor would I ever mean to imply such a thing. Saying that was my intent is WAY off the mark. I asked those questions simply as a way to examine the rationale or reasons behind the rules and to offer a different perspective. Anne, I usually like your posts, but you do me a great disservice here by saying that. If the OP and his gf are happy with the way their rules are established and can work and live within them, more power to them! It seems there are some problems, however, so I offered to share what I saw in the spirit of shedding some light from someone on the outside. Any criticism I may have expressed was done so to be constructive and not to lay judgment on anyone. That is all. Please do not read anything more into my posts than that.
 
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My husband got drunk and asked if i'd fucked anyone else besides my boyfriend lately.

Is this polyamory or not?
 
The simple truth is that people want different levels of rules (guidelines, boundaries, whatever).

Yes, in the sense of "we want some things to be rules, while others are non-binding requests". Not in the sense that each of us desires different amounts of control.

The alternative to making rules is being clear about what you want, what you need, and how you feel to the point where your partner can accurately predict how you would respond to a situation.

Yeah, that's more like what I want.

I was thinking about the principle of Non-Violent Communication, and how a list of "Needs" and "Requests" would be better. "Alice needs X to feel secure. Therefore, Alice requests that Bob do Y." And if Bob agrees to do that, then it's an agreement. If not, then Bob writes down his conflicting need, and they find a compromise.

That article also talks about why I don't want a laundry list of authoritarian rules with "or else!" consequences:
Rosenberg, following the work of Walter Wink, claims that humans are essentially good, but have been burdened by the imposition, 5000 years ago, of a belief system in which we are deemed innately evil. This belief system has driven us to create domination systems, Rosenberg and Wink assert, which have had the result of fostering cultures with poor communication and widespread unhappiness.

1. You communicate clearly what it is you want, and what it is you need. You need to tell her and she needs to understand what you mean. ...

This is all good advice.

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with agreeing to things like calling after dates, asking your partner to let you know if somebody they are chatting with is talking with them occasionally or frequently, if it's flirty or sexual, etc. If requests like this are made for reasons other than jealousy or fear

What's wrong with making the requests out of jealousy and fear? People experience fear and jealousy; doesn't make them bad people. It just means they need to communicate about their feelings and reassure each other, which is what requests like that are for. Informing the other person about what you've been up to is hardly an imposition.

I do feel that she is saying her way is right therefore your way is wrong, but don't let how other people choose to do poly make you feel there is anything wrong with how you are doing it.

Yeah, I'm not. ;)

I have to say to my husband often that the only way to make agreements that will work for both of us is
"I say what I want"
"You say what you want"
"We compromise" (if we want different things that is).

Yesssss.

My girlfriend and I usually want similar things, so that works out nicely.

Does she ever say that she doesn't want to give you something you've asked for? Does she just agree to what you ask for all time without realizing that she doesn't have to, and telling you she wants something different?

Yes, occasionally. Nope, but I'll watch for it.

No idea if that was helpful at all or not, operating on little sleep here!

Yes, very helpful! Thanks.
 
Is that just something that's been discussed verbally?

Hmm, it is more that if I did it I would expect Shannon to be a little hurt I ignored a preference. Similar to if Shannon didn't make a date night for no good reason. I would be a little hurt. Or if the wrong sort of fuel was put in my car (my "baby", Ive been working on it for a few years now).

Whereas the safe sex rule cannot be broken. If it is broken there will be dire consequences. I havent even had to specify the consequences, they would be so numerous and so terrible. Whereas Shannon has specified will get rid of me, that's the consequence I would face - no ifs or buts.
 
Sorry nycindie, but from the quote I referenced and the other particular sentences below, I DID get the impression that you thought that what he's asked for from his partner seemed dysfunctional or clingy, instead of that it was OK.

It seems to me you want to keep a really short leash on your gf and in ways that are somewhat unrealistic or a tad overbearing.

Your feeling hurt by her spontaneously getting together with a guy without you knowing about it beforehand is totally on YOU. She is not hurting you; she is being herself and living her life while you are choosing to feel hurt by it.

Why isn't it enough to know she's dating other people and will inform you about it if and when she is moved to do so?

I do know you like to play devil's advocate, and I think you often raise good points. I also however post based on personal experience and my own neuroses, and truth is, MY defensiveness is raised when I read things that make me feel judged. Yes that is on me!

I feel judged sometimes when I do come in contact with people who do poly along the "I'm living my life and don't have to check in with you before I do what I want" lines. Sometimes they say things that imply I am wrong, and sometimes I make myself feel like I am wrong for asking for certain behaviors from my husband when they manage to live without doing so. I don't want to let him tell me things if/when it moves him to do so. Why can't I just let him do whatever he wants and trust his intent is good, so not let myself be hurt or surprised by his actions? Well cause I'd go fucking insane! I overly identified with the OP, and took offense at the suggestion that he (I) had the goal of controlling his girlfriend (my husband) by asking for the things he has.

Seriously I dread when I have to post asking for advice, I'm not sure I can stuff my ego down enough to not let my feelings hurt by any advice you'd give ;) Even if when I look at it objectively I may get some useful perspective from it, I like a hug and a spoonful of sugar served with hard questions! Sorry If I took it too personally.
 
Originally Posted by Anneintherain
I don't think there is anything wrong at all with agreeing to things like calling after dates, asking your partner to let you know if somebody they are chatting with is talking with them occasionally or frequently, if it's flirty or sexual, etc. If requests like this are made for reasons other than jealousy or fear"

What's wrong with making the requests out of jealousy and fear? People experience fear and jealousy; doesn't make them bad people. It just means they need to communicate about their feelings and reassure each other, which is what requests like that are for. Informing the other person about what you've been up to is hardly an imposition.

I didn't say there were problems with making requests out of jealousy and fear (although I think there are problems with making requests out of that and expecting it to be more than a band-aid on any problem that's not going to bleed through before the week is done) I said "If requests like this are made for reasons other than jealousy or fear I don't see why there is any need to examine them any closer."

If they are made out of jealousy and fear though, I think people owe it to themselves and their partners to be working on figuring out how to improve themselves, their self esteem, their communication. Otherwise they'll be doomed to post on message boards with the same problems recurring forever, looking for advice for the rest their life! :eek:
 
Seriously I dread when I have to post asking for advice, I'm not sure I can stuff my ego down enough to not let my feelings hurt by any advice you'd give

If I didn't have a firm grasp on the fact that I don't really know most of the people here, and that the opinions of anonymous posters on an internet forum are not something to take personally, I might feel hurt by that comment. Fortunately, I don't. I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your saying that. But please know that I adjust my answers to the questions and what my intuition tells me about the poster who asked them. I am not always a hard-ass if it seems like that's not what's needed.

Anne, I'd rather you feel comfortable posting, so I'll just avoid your threads from now on and won't answer any of yours. No need to worry now.

Honestly, I am very often tender and careful in communicating to someone, even when I'm being direct, but that never seems to get any acknowledgement around here. Maybe I should just fucking stop posting altogether, lord knows it takes up a lot of time to ponder and write these responses. Sometimes I think about someone all day, or several days, and come back to share how they've affected me and what impressions I have about their situation. I am not thoughtless or always trying to play devil's advocate. People just freak out when I say something that they don't like and they jump to the conclusion that I'm a meanie with a hard line approach. I can't tell you how many times I get private messages a few days or weeks later from the people who initially were offended by what I told them, to personally thank me because it enabled them to see something or think about something they hadn't thought of, blah-blah-blah. I do acknowledge that I can be wrong about what I see in any given situation or problem. I'm NOT coming from a place of feeling high and mighty over anyone.

Geez, it's just my opinion and, like assholes, everyone's got one, so if what I have to say doesn't resonate, no biggie, just move on. Lately all I can do is tell folks here to just picture me saying it in a firm but compassionate, soft voice, with a hand gently on your arm, looking into your eyes with concern. I'm starting to get tired of writing that. I may come off as opinionated, but I'm all about tough love, with an emphasis on the love!

I think I'll just go to bed now.
 
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If I didn't have a firm grasp on the fact that I don't really know most of the people here, and that the opinions of anonymous posters on an internet forum are not something to take personally, I might feel hurt by that comment. Fortunately, I don't. I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your saying that. But please know that I adjust my answers to the questions and what my intuition tells me about the poster who asked them. I am not always a hard-ass if it seems like that's not what's needed.

Anne, I'd rather you feel comfortable posting, so I'll just avoid your threads from now on and won't answer any of yours. No need to worry now.

Honestly, I am very often tender and careful in communicating to someone, even when I'm being direct, but that never seems to get any acknowledgement around here. Maybe I should just fucking stop posting altogether, lord knows it takes up a lot of time to ponder and write these responses. Sometimes I think about someone all day, or several days, and come back to share how they've affected me and what impressions I have about their situation. I am not thoughtless or always trying to play devil's advocate. People just freak out when I say something that they don't like and they jump to the conclusion that I'm a meanie with a hard line approach. I can't tell you how many times I get private messages a few days or weeks later from the people who initially were offended by what I told them, to personally thank me because it enabled them to see something or think about something they hadn't thought of, blah-blah-blah. I do acknowledge that I can be wrong about what I see in any given situation or problem. I'm NOT coming from a place of feeling high and mighty over anyone.

Geez, it's just my opinion and, like assholes, everyone's got one, so if what I have to say doesn't resonate, no biggie, just move on. Lately all I can do is tell folks here to just picture me saying it in a firm but compassionate, soft voice, with a hand gently on your arm, looking into your eyes with concern. I'm starting to get tired of writing that. I may come off as opinionated, but I'm all about tough love, with an emphasis on the love!

I think I'll just go to bed now.
Can I copy and paste this every time this happens to me? especially about the ass holes? :p
 
I may come off as opinionated, but I'm all about tough love, with an emphasis on the love!

Having lived in the South, Northeast, and Northwest, I can understand how nycindie feels. The simple fact is sometimes Nyc is opinionated, and she's often direct, and some people are biased in their reactions to that. When I moved to the west coast, I had to learn how to soeak Northwestern because people out here assumed my bluntness was a sign of arrogance or assholery.

I for one appreciate Nyc's directness, but I also know her compassion caveat. New folks likely don't and probably haven't figured out that she asks tough questions because she cares.

Thanks for taking the time, Nyc.
 
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