Love In Our Lives - KK's blog space thing

kkxvlv

New member
Ok got past first post fear, got past hang up over picking a title. Here goes, lets hope I'm not about to ruin my life again.… I posted a thread in introductions but for completeness I feel the need to include that info here.

I've been reading the forum for months now but have been reluctant to start posting due to feeling like I'm not real poly enough. I've gained so much from reading the stories and posts here. I was surprised to see the wide range of definitions of polyamory being used and that for the most part people seem so supportive and open minded with each other despite the differences. My limited experience leads me to believe people are either wired to be able to love more than one or not but I understand people can choose whether to practice polyamory or not as well.

I'm a 30 year old heterosexual female. I was introduced to the word polyamory by a man who was being bullied about it in an online group I was part of when I was a teenager. I just couldn't see anything wrong with his situation and what he had to say and eventually left the group in frustration from fighting in his defense. I had totally forgotten about that until I tried to remember where I first learned that word. I have often loved more than one, and want to live my life open to love should it come along but it hadn't occurred to me to identify with that word until the last year or so when looking for advice.

I’m currently in a Vee with Herman and Jasper. I've been married to Herman for 12 years. He's 42, hetero and so mono he refuses to say he loves our dogs. I'm also in a long distance relationship with Jasper for about 6 years. He's 28, hetero, I'm not so sure where he stands on poly for himself. He's been free to date others from the beginning but never has. I don’t have any kids and don’t plan to. My life feels strange and difficult and terrible and unbelievably great all at once.

Why am I here? My Vee has a real communication problem, a number of them actually. Also we don’t know any other poly people (that we’re aware of) so for me its nice to see a forum of people who talk about the things I think about. These things combine so that we don’t have anyone outside the relationship to talk to about it, and we aren’t talking about it inside the relationship. I hate to open this blog this way but that is why I’m here. I’m very stuck inside my own head at the moment and I need to try something different. I’m hoping this gives me a place to work thoughts out in writing so at least I know I’ve expressed it, even if no one sees it. I hope the guys read it. I secretly hope they’ll post but I’m not holding my breath.

I’ve read that the general etiquette in this section is to refrain from comments and debates in people’s personal thread. Personally I’ve read other blogs and wanted to react but knew it really wasn’t polite. This is my personal invitation to say whatever you want here. I hate to sound presumptuous that anyone will even care about my story but I want to put on record that I welcome comments and discussion.
 
Why do I feel like a fraud?

The more I’ve read here the more I feel like I’ve been reading it as fantasy and I can’t post because I feel like a fraud. Like we don’t really count. Jasper tells me I'm not a fraud I'm just a novice. I didn't understand that at first. For one thing I've been in two relationships for years now. Secondly I'm not intentionally planning on moving up to any more advanced levels of poly. Maybe thats what he meant, not "new" just "novice level". So I don't feel like we're "real poly" because it's just one Vee, he's long distance, it's pretty easy to manage. I'm skiing, but it's just the bunny hill. I know that isn’t where my feelings are at but I appreciated the new perspective as I had not really thought of the "novice" aspect affecting my feelings.

However the above reveals how the participants in my relationship tend to avoid the ugly truth. I believe my feelings of illegitimacy center around a few other issues I want to detail separately.

I was a cheater – Guilt
We are terrible communicators – Envious of the communication I read about
I’m believe I’m the only one who wants this – Worry
We have no plan - Fear
We’re not exactly out – Shame

Maybe polyamory isn't the right word. Maybe we aren't there yet. Maybe we never will be. Does it matter if we are or are not? To me it does because the alternative is that I'm just a horrible person and I don't know which it is. It would be hard to argue this isn't all about me getting what I want. It would be hard to argue this blog isn't just me dragging things up so I can feel better rather than actually fixing anything. I thought I was doing this because I was having trouble expressing myself. Now I'm afraid maybe I have been and it just doesn't matter. Bad dreams have me down today.

Planning on sending this to them before I go on.
 
You invited comments...so I am going to make some :)!

First off, thank you for sharing your story (and feelings) with us. I am sure that there are many "lurkers" on this board who feel that they are "not poly enough" to participate ... and you have outlined a number of reasons why.

There is no "rule" about how poly you have to be to have an opinion - you don't even have to identify as poly to be a member of this community. From my perspective, based on what you have posted so far - "I’m currently in a Vee with Herman and Jasper." - THAT'S poly right there. That is what your situation is, THAT is your poly - no better/worse/more valid than my poly or anybody else's.

"I've been in two relationships for years now." That doesn't sound like you are even much of a novice! Many "poly-identified" people haven't had relationships that lasted that long. If a significant portion of that time was spent as a "cheater" then I could see how you would feel that that doesn't "count"...(and I would likely agree, but if you aren't cheating NOW then ... well, LOTS of people come to poly via cheating - not that I would ever recommend it - my current config came about by events that seemed really REALLY close to cheating. All you can do is make the best decisions you can RIGHT NOW to move on from that).

As to your other concerns -

Communication is something that can be learned and worked on - some people are natural communicators and others are not. Others here will likely be able to suggest resources for you to consider.

I, too, worry that my boys are agreeing to this because it is what I want and not what they want for themselves. BUT, they are adults and responsible for their own wants and needs. Ultimately they choose their own paths...they choose to walk this one with me.

Plan/No Plan - this may be a personality (as opposed to a poly thing). I want a plan for just about everything BUT relationships. (Dude and I collide on this frequently - he doesn't believe in plans AT ALL). You can't plan feelings - you can only "prepare for possibilities"...(again, only my personal take on this)

"Shame" for not being out? You don't need to be an activist to have a poly relationship! This is between you and your partners - you can listen to what others have to say...think on it, and decide it is not for you. Yes, being out has benefits (to you and others) but it also carries risk...only those of you IN a situation can judge it.

Just one person's response to your posts...

JaneQ
 
Thanks Jane!

Your comments make sense and I want it to be that simple. Communication can be built, plans can be made, adult men can make their own decisions. I know I can write out our story that way and it sounds ok. I had them read it and neither said "What are you talking about? that isn't what's happening!" so I should be comfortable with that. It just doesn't seem that easy to me. If what I end up learning from this blog is that it can be and I need to get over myself and move on that would be a nice surprise. There is a lot more of this story to come though.
 
How'd That Happen?

My boyfriend Jasper and I are long distance and we spend a lot of time on the phone. We sometimes read each other things like Dan Savage's advice column. There is a whole category of letters known as "How'd That Happen?" explained by Savage below:

We get a lot of letters here at Savage Labs. While every letter is unique, patterns do emerge, and Wet's letter is a good example of a certain type of letter we get. The kids in the mailroom call them HTHs, or "How'd That Happen?!" letters. You see, Wet is doing this completely whack thing—pissing on himself in the bathtub as a substitute for masturbation—and like a lot of folks doing whack things, Wet has some whack concerns. He has questions about the advisability of this whack behavior—will urine damage my skin? Is there something wrong with me?—so he writes a letter. Something that he thinks, no doubt, took some courage. But in composing his letter, Wet chickens out: He fails to take responsibility for his actions, casting himself as a passive player in this bathtub drama. He may be peeing on himself, but it wasn't really his idea, he writes: "I don't know how this happened—one morning I just did it." How'd That Happen?!

When I asked Jasper for help naming this blog, How'd That Happen came up. I said, "Surely we don't want to be known as How'd That Happen? type people." but I am afraid we are. It's sort of the only thing that explains how we got here. We all just sat around wondering How'd That Happen? If there was something I would change about us, it would be that. We're all passive, we aren't always accountable, we're not proactive and intentional and worst yet sometimes we don't even wonder How'd That Happen, we just ignore that it's happening at all. I want to own up to it.

So How Did This Happen?

It was love at first sight with Herman. Of course everyone told me not to get married at 18. I got lucky, if it was a mistake it was the best one I’ve ever made. I regret not having a better idea of who I was and what I wanted in life especially in regards to non-monogamy. Then I wonder, Didn’t I? I was busy complaining about a guy I was in a long distance relationship with the night I met Herman. I was a cheater in some form or another in every romantic relationship I’ve ever been in. I didn't go out looking for it, I just never fully closed myself to connections with other people. It wasn't usually sex and the relationships I was in were never all that defined to begin with but I count it. I cheated before and after we were married which I admitted to but only afterwards. Herman asked me to end it with that guy which I did but I told him I couldn’t promise I wouldn’t cheat in the future. We struggled in those first years but just couldn’t split up over it because our love hadn’t changed and we still wanted to be together. We had endless conversations about our relationship which I can barely remember now but I remember it felt terrible and he always came away saying he felt like he wasn’t good enough. I’ve never done it for that reason, but I understand how easy it is to feel that way. I hope none of this reads like I'm making excuses for the cheating or saying I think anything I did was ok. I'm a piece of shit and I know it. From the example of marriage I had from my parents I thought you were supposed to find a person who would be EVERYTHING to you. They spent 24 hours a day together and had little or no outside social interaction. Once I was married I quickly learned that must have been why they fought so much as that is just a ridiculous amount of expectation to put on one person. In the meantime my parents divorced after 30+ years when my dad lost his mind over a woman who was the exact opposite of my mother. (that's not a judgement of the other woman or their relationship, he really lost it all on his own) All four of us worked in the same office. I learned a lot about what I think about relationships being in the middle of that. I think 30+ years of marriage can be a success if you end it or not. I learned that someone who gives you everything you've missed from one relationship doesn't make them any more perfect for you. They taught me how not to communicate. I eventually came to the conclusion that I needed to become more independent and grow as my own person and quit focusing so much on “us” which wasn’t ever really the problem to begin with. There were some good monogamous years during that time and I started making new friends. Then I got closer to one of them.

Herman and I were in a much better place when we met Jasper at an event outside both of our home states. Afterward he and I kept in touch online and on the phone and began meeting up at other events with other friends from that community. The more we talked I knew in my heart I was heading for trouble and I could have cut off contact but I didn’t. I considered it cheating and felt guilty long before we had sex and before I even knew he had feelings for me, but I also never hid anything from Herman. He knew about our relationship and we talked about how close Jasper and I were, I told him I was in love with Jasper. I know we talked about it because I often wondered why Herman wasn't unhappy like he had been in the past. Seemed to good to be true. I tried to get Jasper to end it all the time because I felt it was unfair to him as well. I made it clear I would never leave Herman and had no desire to. He insisted he could make his own decisions. Jasper and I talked on the phone or online almost every night. I spent all my vacation time visiting him or him visiting us or traveling together. For years it went on that Jasper was just a part of our life and even when he wasn’t around, Herman and I considered him in our daily activities. I brought him to family functions, he met every one I know. He has a room in our house. We all talked about him moving in with us for a long time. Herman and I began to assume it would never happen because Jasper is very attached to his city. Then a couple years ago a plan was made and a date was set for the move. As it got closer I couldn’t believe it was really happening and I got very nervous about how both of them felt. I decided to have one more check in with Herman to make sure he was really ok with this and he kept saying he was but it didn’t make sense to me. So I kept pushing and hours into the conversation it hit me that he didn’t know we were sexual. I can't explain it, I sure thought we'd talked about it. Long story short, I fucked up. All of our worlds fell apart. I told Jasper what happened and that I’d be out of contact for a week while I figured out what I was doing. I intended to end it with both of them because I didn’t want to leave one for the other and I never wanted to be assumed monogamous again. Herman asked me not to go so I stayed while he worked out how he felt about it. I was still being horrible about it. I didn't understand what the difference was between the life we were living and the life Herman thought we had. Eventually I think he agreed. I don't really know what happened. I told him I wasn't going to cut Jasper out of my life for him and I definitely wasn't going to be assumed monogamous any more. But he still wanted to stay together. We had a trip all together planned just a couple weeks away and both guys decided to go ahead with it. I guess we thought we'd talk about it but we never really did. Herman and I sort of just went back to normal and he even said Jasper should still move. Jasper on the other hand did not really recover. He was obviously shocked and felt like he had lost any sense of security and acceptance with us. Maybe it wasn’t until then that we all realized we were in a situation where one person could change all of our lives so quickly. Jasper asked for some time to figure out what he wanted and then fell into a lengthy depression I think he is only recently coming out from.

I guess I fear we are there all over again. (or still?) I fear I don't know how they feel or what they really decided. I fear they are both with me because they are afraid to start over. Or because they want me to be happy or they want to be with me enough to ignore their own wants and needs. I wish for what I think "real" polyamorous people have. Honest communication, even if its ugly. I want to be clear and I want each of us to take responsibility for ourselves and our relationships and our life. I want them to work with me. Which leads to issue #2.
 
We are terrible communicators – Envious of the communication I read about

I know this feeling :D. This is probably one of the biggest reasons I'm still here, as I'm in a mono marriage (but wouldn't mind that changing). I've been married 21 years and lack of communication is one of the main reason we nearly divorced. We are still learning how to communicate with each other (2 1/2 years later). It is a tough and frustrating process, but well worth it.

If your husband and/or bf is game, seek out a marriage counselor for that specific purpose. Not communicating can lead to years worth or resentments that build up only explode catastrophically at a later date. BTDT - not something I would wish on anyone.
 
About those communication problems Pt 1

Obviously I've condensed my life story to highlight that's my problem. I'm a talker, I want to talk about everything all the time. I don’t know how we got here because I thought I was a good communicator. Since “the blow up” I know I haven’t been though. I just can't do it. Both guys are very open to listening but I rarely feel like I'm getting much response. Herman says that is a guy thing. Ugh! This cliche has caused me so much pain. I don't want to be the girlfriend who is always saying "we need to talk..." but I feel like if I don’t, no one else will. I could go on and on about why I don't talk, but the guys have never done anything to discourage me. They just don't start conversations and either don't have all that much to say or are bottling it all (which they claim not to be) That doesn't mean I put the blame for lack of or ineffectual communication on them. If I recognize the problem that I need to start the conversations I should fix it by just starting the conversations.

I have a lot of hang ups. My dad impressed on me a great importance to “play the game” and present yourself in a certain way to the outside world. (as mentioned before he managed to hide who he was from the outside until he was 50 and then had a mental breakdown so I know it’s a bad road to follow) I feel like I need to hide who I am from the world and that weighs on me. At the very least I want to be able to go “home” and be safe to be me, and be completely open and honest with my partners. But I don’t like myself, so I’m afraid they won’t accept me either. I think if I don't hide some things something bad will happen, I'll lose what I have, or I'll hurt or disappoint someone. The guys have never given me any reason to feel unaccepted. After all they’re still with me right? That said, I don’t feel like I was always this afraid to express myself. No matter how much acceptance I get from them, I still can't let myself be open and free.

I am so envious of the communication I've read about here. People talk about establishing wants and needs and limits. People talk about negotiating and compromise and agreements and check ins. I wanted that stuff. Maybe they think I want the freedom of no discussions and expectations so I can do whatever I want and that will make me happy but that isn't what I want. I want them to be happy and for them to pursue what they want to do and to feel like they have a say in the direction their lives take and I want partnership for a reason. I never asked to be the leader.

I have neglected to spell it out yet but I'm sure its obvious, they are both worry most about me being happy. I worry that I make them miserable and they won't bother to tell me. A lot of times I try to keep my mouth shut because we're pretty happy and I don't want to create drama. During the day I will think about a conversation I'd like to have and as soon as I have a chance, I'm just so happy to be spending time with them that I just want to enjoy it. So that's me.

Jasper will just fret in his own space. When I try to talk about something with him I get a lot of "I don't know" or self hatred melt down. In the past I have been more likely to push him to work through things with me. He and I have had a rough time the last couple years based partly on the fact that he never sought help for his depression and I was becoming impatient with issues in our relationship basically being on hold for years. That sounds terrible in writing too but I believe I was as supportive as possible to someone who says he needs to "get out of it on his own" but isn’t actually doing anything to improve. I finally withdrew a lot from the relationship and now we are working on rebuilding it but I don’t have nearly the same comfort level that I did before his behavior took such a major shift during that time. We have simple misunderstandings which lead to fights easily. He has some anger issues that I do not respond well to but he is working on that. It seems like most of the time we have to have some kind of fight or melt down before we can actually get in to talking about an issue. I think we're both unsure how to handle that and have been going back and forth about when it is or isn't appropriate to walk away from an escalated situation or stick with it and work through it. My main problem with that is if we do walk away to calm down, the issue doesn't get picked back up again. I've tried to avoid the initial confrontation by moving to writing. Also he often requests more time to think about something before continuing a discussion but won't follow up so I thought writing would make that easier as well. Didn't work. From my perspective it seems to go like this. I muster up the will to send an big deal email. He'll call and not reference it or he will acknowledge receiving it and that he will respond when he has time to give it thought. We go along with our regular conversations, time goes by, I get easily upset by the lack of response. I try my best to wait and not be upset with him. Eventually a week goes by, I get no response and now I am upset when I ask... "sooo do you have anything to say about it?" This leads to a fight about him not responding. He is hurt and upset, we have to get through that, and then it's over. Still never got a response. I've tried different things to fix it. I know he sometimes reacts defensively to my thoughts so I've asked him to share his thoughts on a topic first. I sent an email asking for his thoughts on a subject and said I would not worry about a response for a week. I asked if that would be enough time and if not he should let me know. He agreed that amount of time would be fine. The date came and went. I waited another 2 days. I said I guess thats the answer I needed to hear. He says he had done all this writing but it isn't finished. Why didn't he check in on the expected date? He says he mixed up the days by accident. I ask how much longer then, he doesn't know. I'm upset. If he ever wrote anything or had anything to say I never saw it.
 
Pt 2

Problems are similar with Herman except that we don't fight about whether or not he responds. He admits it and uses the cliche, "that's just how guys are" He says he doesn't know what to say.

From my perspective I think Herman seems to prefer not to think about things that bother him at all. I get a lot of "I don't knows" here too but also a lot of jokes trying to make me feel better which make me feel like I'm not being taken seriously and I tend to just let things go. We get along so well, and almost never fight and share similar beliefs on almost everything. The relationship is just very easy for us right up to the part where I want to talk about feelings. I remember when we first got together I used to ask him what he was thinking and he would say “nothing.” This is a foreign concept to me and for some time I thought he was just avoiding answering me. I can’t remember a time I had nothing on my mind unless maybe I was really entranced by music. Eventually I came to trust that sometimes he really isn’t thinking about anything. I think feelings can be the same way. If I don’t ask how he feels about something very specifically, it may be possible he hasn’t thought about how he feels about it. He is very even tempered and I think he doesn’t let many things affect him. For the most part I am ok with that even if it is a little frustrating and hard for me to understand. The problem is that I feel like I have to worry if things are ok for both of us. To have a conversation about how he feels is more difficult than just asking if everything is ok? is there anything bothering you? It’s hard to recall a time he has ever complained about anything I do, and I’m terrible. It’s easy for me to think he should be responsible for looking out for his own feelings and if he has a problem he should be responsible for telling me but I just can’t trust that. He’s just so unselfish. He eats the burned pieces of everything and says he likes burnt taste. Does he really or does he just want to leave the good pieces for me? I don't have any reason not to trust him. He doesn't lie, he's never blown up about something he'd been keeping inside. It's just hard because he's just kind of... odd. Who likes burnt things? Of course I don't really blame him for our lack of communication. I blame myself. I still feel very guilty. Pretty much the only thing I have ever done that has really bothered him is cheating. I feel terrible that I didn't know I wanted to be polyamorous before and didn't talk to him before hand. I feel terrible he didn't have a choice. I know I have done everything wrong but I can't change that, I can only go forward. I don't want it to be the situation where he has to accept this or lose me but it is that way. I feel like there must be something I can do going forward. He says its my world and he's just living in it. It's a long standing joke but its true. I want him to be happy. If my polyamory made him miserable I'd want him to leave. If there is some middle ground I'd like to find it. If there are specific things that bother him I want to work on finding a solution. He just doesn't say anything is wrong. Even when the blow up happened, he was surprised and upset and he felt stupid but does it bother him now that we just kept going forward? I don't know. Does anything about it bother him? He said he wanted our relationship to be special. I said I think our relationship is special but I certainly didn't think sex was what made us special. What does special mean to him? How can I make sure I'm making him feel that way? What makes him feel bad or uncomfortable or jealous and can I minimize it? I know it should be as easy as asking him for the answers but it doesn't seem that easy to me.

I wrote him an email when I first started reading this board asking how he felt about me posting here and that I didn't want him to think I was trying to find new people in secret because it's not really that kind of place. I then went on to talk about my trouble with communicating. I said I still felt guilty for hurting him and that is one of the reasons I avoid talking about it with him. I said I was afraid I'll upset him, afraid it's irritating or annoying to have these conversations. Afraid he won't understand my feelings. Afraid when I start talking he will fear I have some big problem when I just want to talk. Afraid he won't respond and I'll be vulnerable and not have gotten anything back from it.
No response at home or in email. A couple weeks later I mentioned it and he said "Oh yeah I was going to look at that site" that was the only time we discussed it. I said one of my fears was that he would not respond! I decided if he didn't have anything to say he must be fine with my posting and moved on. But I never did post because I don't want to be like that any more. I asked again recently and got no response again for a couple days. Then I started wondering if he DID have a problem, otherwise why not just say yeah it's fine? Why is this so hard? He finally brought it up by asking if I had started this blog yet. I said I hadn't because I didn't know how he felt about it. He said he was sorry and he didn't want to tell me what I was allowed to do. I said I asking because it's his business as well and I want to be respectful of that. It was awkward. We talked about how I couldn't think of a title and things a bit for the next couple days but I don't think he ever actually answered how HE felt about it.

I know they both love me, I know they care about me but I feel so alone when they don't respond. Then I quit talking for awhile, secretly hoping someone will come to me. They don't. I have made it clear that lack of words from them leads me to fill in the blanks with either my interpretation of their actions or worse my wildest imagination. Eventually I feel badly enough again to try to communicate, cycle begins anew.

Lately I feel like the best thing to do is just give up trying to communicate and let things be whatever they will be. When I do this, things appear to be just fine. I feel like shit and I worry but maybe that's the part I should be trying to fix instead. I know the response is obviously that all three of these people need counselling. I know we should, I know we would benefit, I guess I just can't accept that we need to. I feel like I am close enough to these two that we shouldn't need another party just to help us talk to each other. It just shouldn't be that hard. I know I need to take that consideration more seriously.
 
OMG! This sounds so familiar :rolleyes:

I'm a talker, I want to talk about everything all the time.

I too am a talker and live with someone who's NOT. In counceling (after 19 years of marriage).it came out that the more I talk, the more he just tunes me out. So unless I'm direct, to the point and use only about 5 words, he spaces out. We also had to learn to stop and say "what did you hear me say and what do you think it means" it must be in their words, not a repeat of yours - don't be surprised if what they heard is way out in left field from where you thought you were going.

As far as the silent vs checking in - let me know when you figure that one out:rolleyes:. At home, I just have to keep reminding everyone (kids included) that I NEED that check in for my own sanity, even if the answer is "I have no answers yet", "I'm still thinking about it" or even "I've been swamped and haven't had 2 minutes to devote to it". Just don't blow me off and ignore me.

Pick only one topic at a time. This is hard for me because one thing makes me think of something else, but it confuses the non-talkers, who don't bounce from topic to topic easily. You may also want to make it clear that if they say they are "OK" with something, you will take them at their word and it's their responsibility to bring it up again, if things change (no passive-aggressive shit where fine or ok means they are really pissed off and now it's a guessing game). Don't keep hounding them. Checking in is ok, but don't badger them about a specific topic. "Hey, it's been a week or so since our last big discussion, I just want to check in to see if there is anything we need to address?" If they say, all is good, leave it at that.

The communication is not all on you, it does go both ways.
 
Take a breath for good stuff

Thanks for the tips! I really appreciate it.

It's funny that I am only just now getting to posting all this self doubt because things are so good right now. When I turned 30 something flipped inside me that I need to go see everything immediately. So I'm trying to get out hiking and camping as much as possible. I also want to make a point of scheduling visits with Jasper a least once a month where as we had been sort of just waiting until something comes up or long holiday weekends. I'm trying to keep a calendar for all of us for the first time to make planning easier and we've just booked April and May visits. In May we'll be taking a trip all together which we haven't been able to do since last summer. Last weekend Herman and I were out adventuring and when he noticed we had cell reception he would ask if I wanted to check in with Jasper. Then when we got home, Jasper and I watched one of our stupid tv shows together and he had been having a good weekend and wasn't down about me being out of reach since I managed to let him know properly for once. This week Jasper helped Herman out with some computer stuff. Now I'm having breakfast in bed with a small dog who looks like a living teddy bear. Just regular stuff but it feels great.
 
This is unrelated but I guess it is part of the love in my life. I wanted to write about something that happened this weekend but I couldn't seem to do it without going on for pages about my parents. Only in the last few years have I realized how much of ones thoughts and emotions can be traced back to things your parents did.

To try to make a long story short I haven't seen my mom in two and half years. She moved to another state during my parents split but had been visiting where I live once or twice a year since her 3 children, 3 grandchildren and 2 sisters all live here. Then one of my brothers moved across the country and suddenly she had a bunch of reasons she couldn't come. The last time I saw her I had invited her on a trip with Herman, Jasper and I. I have invited her since but she said she got a new job and she is also an artist and has been very busy, etc. I am happy for her because she is getting a chance to have her own life in a place she loves rather than just following along supporting someone elses dreams like I perceived her marriage. That said I have not been able to go visit her because she happened to move to a place that traumatized me numerous times on family vacations as a kid. Nothing that terrible but, injuries I still have scars from, animal attacks, getting lost or stranded, severe storms. Enough that I vowed 15 years ago that I would never return as an adult. I mentioned that I've started hiking and camping again but I had anxiety that kept me far from such activities for many years until I've come to realize that as an adult I have control over my own well being and the situations I put myself in which I did not have back then. This year I decided I was ready to face it and go see her and have been thinking about a trip probably in October when she said the weather was best. So yeah that part is my fault but I was working on it.

In the last few months my brother who had moved has returned. My brothers are 10 and 12 years older than me and we have never been close. This brother has been at odds with one or another member of the family since he met his wife. For years she hated both my parents, now since my parents split she seems to like my mom but they both hate my dad and I have no idea what their problem is with me but I've kept my distance since they both made horrific comments publicly about Herman at our wedding and have taken every opportunity to continue since. When they moved back, they found me on facebook and I accepted the requests but they immediately started with the nasty comments on random things I would post. I haven't unfriended them because I'd rather not give them the satisfaction of knowing it bothers me. On saturday I saw he posted a picture on his page of himself and my mom titled "moms here!" She hasn't bothered to contact me at all. I can't contact her because she doesn't have a cell phone and I don't have his number. I don't know why she's here or for how long but they appeared to just be out having fun.

It really upset me. I started thinking about it in sort of poly relationship terms because that's where my mind has been lately. If they had planned this trip for him and her I guess it makes sense they would not want to take time out of it for her to visit other people. To my knowledge she has never made the trip out here without seeing everyone whether we got together as a group or she made a few stops but I guess I might be wrong. It just seems like if it were meant to be private, he could have not posted it on facebook. If it were my partner visiting someone else I would fight this jealousy and tell myself her spending time with him was not intended to hurt me. Then again I would hope they wouldn't put me in the position of finding out they were nearby for the first time in years from someone else on facebook. I certainly don't need for everyone to be equal, I know he has seen her several times since I have and it never bothered me before. It's just very disappointing that this didn't even prompt a call to say she thought about me being so close and sadly wouldn't be able to see me.
 
Setting out to cover a few points when I started seems to be preventing me from writing other things when I'd like. Getting the first 2 off my chest has contributed to me feeling so great lately that it's hard to be detailed about the concerns I was having at that time. They are long term things though so I will have to come back to my original 5 points later.

Jasper will be here tonight. I always get pretty stressed right before we visit. We are usually working extra in order to take a couple extra days off, and then there is some extra cleaning or preparing for whatever activities we've planned. The extra stuff to do also means we talk less leading up to the arrival and there is always this sort of odd detachment that makes meeting in person all the sudden a little awkward. That feeling has lessened over the years but still hasn't gone away entirely. I guess it would be nice if it were a grand romantic running into each others arms moment but I can't seem to do that. Even when I come home and am very excited to see Herman I prefer a running pick up where I throw my stuff in the car and we head home and get to talk for awhile before all the hugs and stuff.

I'm feeling a lot of pressure from only having 1 weekend a month. I think trying for one visit (of however many days) per month with Jasper will end up being an overall increase in days together for us and yet there is still so much pressure to get the most out of it that we can. Herman's work schedule also makes it so we only get one full weekend a month together as well. Despite the fact that I see him every day I still feel a lot of pressure to make the most out of that weekend. It never matters what we did, we're always happy just being together. I know this in my heart but my mind can't quit freaking out over the limited opportunities. It also doesn't help that I feel like the majority of planning responsibilities falls on me. I'm sure I created that situation but it still contributes to the stress. Perhaps I am not fully recognizing the added demands and effects of my third love affair with the wilderness. I've got the NRE bad with that one. Luckily Herman and Jasper are also quite smitten.
 
my troubles with cell phones

Had a great 4 days with Jasper visiting Herman and I. I certainly need to get a handle on either solidifying plans in advance or just letting go of whatever happens. Visits always make me feel like the luckiest person in the world. Jasper worked so hard to be able to take the time off (and is now working even harder to catch up) and Herman spent so much time helping me with plans for the weekend. I was happy we ended up spending some time all together even though I did not get as much adventuring time as I hoped. It makes me so happy just to be in the same room with both of them.

On Monday I was in a rush and driving a lot and I failed to check in with Herman about where Jasper and I were headed and when we'd be back. He ended up waiting around for us for some time, probably worried and I know personally I miss someone more when I don't know when I'll be hearing from them again. I meant to let him know our plans but by the time I tried we were out of cell reception and it bothered me all day long. I do the same thing to Jasper.

I know I need to do a better job of checking in about where I am and what my schedule is like. I worry that this creates the feeling that I forget about the other person when I'm out with someone else. That is absolutely not true. While I do believe that its important to focus on the person and experience you're presently having, I do think about them. I don't carry a phone so the whole cell phone socialization sort of escapes me. They both do and it isn't a problem for me to use it but it's not in my pocket so I don't think about sending a quick text. I also don't know when we have reception because I don't check it regularly like they do.

I don't really want my own phone. I lived for many years before people felt the need to be available all the time. I hate how people expect you to answer every time it rings because they know you have it on you. I hate it when people are constantly checking messages, emails, sports, news or whatever while we're supposed to be enjoying each other's company. I haven't fallen victim to this purely because I don't carry one. I'd like to think I could use it just for checking in and emergencies but it's not likely. The times when I have carried one while traveling, it repeated broke, or I had no service due to some glitch at the company or I had no power. It ended up causing more worry and trouble than if I had just been assumed unreachable. Ahh just more additional stress caused by not having advanced plans.

I know I just need to make it a higher priority to check in during the packing and rushing to get on the road. I think that has finally sunk in for me this time.

While I'm on the subject of how much I hate cell phones... I also hate calling people on their cell because I don't know where they are or what they are in the middle of. Jasper only has a cell line and consequently I tend to wait for him to call when he is free. I think sometimes he wishes I would be the one to initiate contact more. I hate the thought of interrupting him at work or when he is with other people. There has also been times (including while we are fighting) when I've been unable to reach him for extended periods of time and I don't know if his phone has died/broken/got lost or if he's angry and avoiding me or if he's dead in a ditch. I know it probably doesn't feel much better when I am unavailable but he has 3 locations to try to reach me at and other people to say they've seen me alive recently. I also can't forget to complain about all the messages we HAVE sent each other that are never received. Of course I am ignoring how helpful they've been in keeping us connected and these problems have a much less significant affect on us than they did in the early years.

I think I will have a conversation with each of them reiterating that I will make a better effort to check in but that I want to be assumed safe and simply "out" for 24 hours unless I've stated another time frame. I'm also using the group calendar to write down when I do have things planned rather than rely on someone remembering the event I mentioned in conversation. We aren't usually so explicit about our expectations. I've been with them both for long enough that most things are understood as a matter of routine. It feels a little odd to address things in this manner but it is my plan to try this for awhile and see what effect it has on my life.
 
Wanted to chime in about the cell phones. I really understand your reluctance but you don't HAVE to treat yours the way others treat theirs. I use mine as a.) landline - wherever I am, b.) txt generator - no reply required c.) back up alarm clock d.) that's it (I don't allow it to access the internet - sucks battery life and my time).

When I had to have one for work I decided that it was silly for me to pay for a landline when I already had a cell phone paid for. BUT I also decided that I would answer my phone on my terms by my rules. So, when my phone goes off I do check it - if it is work, I answer (since that is why I have it) - if it is friends or family then I answer by "landline" rules. IF I am home, AND I want to talk to them (which does happen once in a while), THEN I answer it...otherwise it goes to voicemail (which they know that I hate - so they only leave one if it is actually important/time sensitive).

I only use txt for info that doesn't require a reply ("Heading home." "We need milk." "Leaving at 7." etc.) - never for conversation. I find txting to be the perfect answer, for me, for the purpose of letting the boys know where I am and what my timeframe is. AND I never worry about "interrupting" them with a txt - since my txts never require a reply. If I want to talk to them but it is not urgent I will txt "I'll be home between 5 and 8 if you have time to talk and want to call - otherwise I'll see you tomorrow." or "Wanted to talk about our plans for tomorrow - I'll call at 9. Don't answer if you are busy. I'll try back at 11."

You DO have to fight the "expectations" of others but it actually doesn't take too long for most people to learn your style. (I do have exactly one friend that is savvy enough to realize that if it goes to voicemail after 2-3 rings its because I shut it off...so I let her calls ring through all 7 - or tell her that the battery must have died.)

Yes, it is not unusual for txts to not go through right away. I actually still have a pager for this - so work can contact me if phone is dead. MrS and Dude are the only others with the pager number and they have codes to use if it is an actual emergency.

(Funny story: I was at work and my phone went off, it was my mom. I sent it to voicemail, commented to my co-worker "hmm, that's my mom...she hardly ever calls." My co-worker said - "Shouldn't you answer that - what if it's an emergency?" I said - "If it's an emergency then she should call 9-1-1." He said - "What if something awful happened - like your dad is dead?" I said - "Well, then there is nothing I can do - he'll STILL be dead whether I answer the phone or not.")

I did, finally, convince Dude to get a phone. My argument was: a.) you keep taking MrS's phone, then I can't get in touch with him/wake him up b.) there is NO PHONE at the two houses you are likely to be at if you have to call 9-1-1 (which is why you take MrS's phone) c.) you don't HAVE to give anyone your number d.) if you don't want me to call you - I won't. Now, if he would just leave the stupid thing on the charger and quit using it to play music and run down the stupid battery...

JaneQ
 
Another Love

This blog seems to have put me at odds with myself. I want to reveal but I want to hide. I want to get it out of my head but I don't want to open up a can of worms. I don't want to worry what other people think but I feel like defending myself.

I've been writing a lot lately but can't seem to organize my thoughts enough to post. I thought I'd take a break and intentionally embarrass myself by writing about another love in my life.

I love these guys from this band. I'd be more specific but I think that would be the most identifying characteristic about me on the internet. I mean I deeply love them as people. I've introduced them to my mother. Sometimes I make myself feel terrible about it because gosh that is just so pathetic and juvenile. I fell in love with them musically first. Just the sound they made. Then the things they said, in songs and in interviews. Often I wish it had stayed there.

But then we met about 8 years ago... I was incredibly shy at that time in my life. Just going to their shows was a lot more exposure to people than I was ready for. One day we're at this festival and the lead singer just walked by. I made Herman ask him to take a picture with me. Instead this guy grabbed me and hugged me so tight that I kind of freaked out. There was another band playing at the time and we couldn't really hear each other so that was that. Ok crazy hug aside that was fairly normal. The next time a year later I was minding my own business taking a picture of the ocean and I felt someone bump into me. It's him. He just starts talking about seals. Somehow during this conversation he convinces me to go to Mexico which I've had an irrational fear of as far back as I can remember. I don't believe he remembered having met me before but it was so weird.

Another time I waited in line for this official meet and greet thing where I met another guy from the band. I asked him for a hug once and I've never had to ask again. I was telling him about how his music is the only thing that has ever totally cleared my mind. He made some comment about how I should be careful because that kind of thing is addictive. I was kind of offended because he is a former drug addict and I'm like the one anti-drug education success story who was scared enough to never touch anything ever. I just didn't like the addiction word being thrown at me by this guy who doesn't know me at all. I'm not sure what he picked up on in those few sentences, he was right though.

I started going to more and more shows and things got weirder. I always stood in the same spot up front and so the entire band began to remember my face. This period of time was a big deal for me too because I was extremely shy and sort of afraid of doing anything on my own and so I was traveling on my own and exposing myself to lots of people on purpose. Accomplishing those things by seeing them was easier because... well because I was in love with them. The first time I went to NYC I was alone and absolutely terrified. Someone yelled something at me from down the street and when I looked back it was their drummer. He made fun of me for being in NYC when he'd just seen me in San Francisco a week before. (Yeah addicted was the right word) He might have the biggest heart of anyone I've ever met and little did he know, he saved me from having Herman come get me because I was so scared of the city at that moment. We are sort of friends now I guess, our relationship consists mostly of us busting on each other about everything.

Of course in those first meetings I was floored to be in the presence of those guys who make those sounds but they are incredibly down to earth and real, kind people. I've had a lot of conversations with the 3 of them and they were often really strange personal kind of things. Later that year I had told the singer I was bringing my mom to a show and they made this huge production of playing a song I had never got the chance to hear live before and dedicating it to me. Apparently they got the (hugely embarrassed) reaction they wanted because this sort of became a thing they did repeatedly to mess with me. They were aware of my goals in traveling and meeting people and I think this was also their way of telling thousands of people my name which over the years has resulted in a lot of potential friends approaching me. In fact one of those people is Jasper. I am not sexually attracted to any of them so thankfully that type of crush is not part of it, but love is there. I'd call it obsession but man there are fans so much worse than me its scary and I've always made a point to show some restraint, and treat them like actual people and not objects. Seriously people can be really terrible. Perhaps for that reason, I know they share some fondness for me too, no matter how much I try to ground myself and be realistic. I could fill a whole blog of its own with the crazy experiences we've shared and the innumerable kindnesses they've shown me over the last 8 or 9 years. They've shaped my life in fairly major ways. I've withdrawn some in the last few years (by that I mean I tearfully told them I wouldn't be around for awhile because I genuinely believed they might have worried) and while I think it was the right thing for me, I miss them a lot. When I look back I feel like I must have imagined the whole thing. I still feel stupid about my feelings sometimes though. It's sort of the craziest poly relationship between me and them and all their fans who now know me by name and Jasper who I'd argue is more in love with them than I am but in a bit different way. Believe me, it affected our relationship like any triad would. That's a post for another day as I'm sure it will be an issue again some day.

Ok so I am friendly with mid level celebrities. They wish me happy birthday, they ask about me if they see Jasper without me, we catch up about ourselves when we talk rather than me blathering on about fangirl nonsense. But why do I have to love them? Why do I miss them when we aren't really close enough for me to reach out to them? Why do I worry about them? I have phone numbers but I wouldn't call unless I needed to. I assume they have hundreds of people contacting them online daily so I don't go that route unless it's a joke and I don't care if it lands or not. I can't say we're really friends. Yeah we care for each other, we all would and have done things for each other I wouldn't count on from just anyone. But come on! I'm 30, I can't love guys from a band! and certainly we are growing apart. I'm not in love with their most recent album, their fanbase has taken a turn I don't care for and in all those years we've all changed as people. One of them is going through a phase (I hope!) that looks way too similar to my dad's and I'd rather not be around to see it in person but I still love him and I worry for him and how it will affect the rest of the group. I hate that I'm not in as much contact with them or my other friends from shows just because I don't want to go as often. In the end its just another time I have so much to say and so little ability to express it. I feel so lame. Why I am posting this stuff voluntarily?
 
Nice one!

Shout out to the persons who decided to rate my blog haha! The first time I assumed it was one of my guys though neither would admit it. Now I know you raters mean business! Having anonymous ratings on the personal blog section is a little weird isn't it? I might like it.
 
my troubles with posting here

This may sound related but I wrote all of this before I noticed the rating thing, I actually do think that is pretty funny.

I've written a lot in the past week but I can't seem to put it out here. I'm not sure why I thought this blog would be exempt from my communication freeze ups. I wrote a whole post about some conversations Jasper and I had while he was here. Then I went to look for a bit of something I had written before about the 'Not Having A Plan' point and everything I had written that day was the exact opposite of what I had just written. In high school I was quite delighted by Emerson but I haven't thought about his writings in many years but the moment made me think of this. “Speak what you think today in hard words and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.” I would like to write the blog that way because parts of me still wish to express both things but I hate that now I'm not sure what I think. Is that difference supposed to mean something? Is it a change? is it growth? Is one of them a lie? Am I simply feeling more peaceful than I was weeks ago?

I've also been reminded recently why I stopped participating in internet forums years ago. They always seem to breed drama and I've never been one of those people who can just say anything because its the internet. I've debated giving up continuing to write here entirely. I'm not really doing it for the public nature of it, I'm doing it to work through my thoughts and kick start communication with my partners. When I started I was so concerned about what reaction my partners might have that I didn't have any concern for what anyone else might think at all. I'm a bit disappointed in myself that I'm already getting tangled up in how it's presented.

Everything has positives and negatives. I've found a lot of positives in reading and posting here. I never held the fantasy that I wouldn't be judged whether publicly or privately but this board seems like an odd place to throw stones. So many of us have bared our mistakes and missteps and our insecurities and flaws. It was that exposure that led me to want to write here though I don't consider others mistakes quite as ugly as mine. I want to allow myself to shine a light on everything, including the ugly. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I'm a good person. I try to make the best decisions, I try to treat people well. I'm never going to stand up and talk about how great my morals are though. I don't think I have everything in life figured out. I don't see things very black and white. My primary value is freedom. I believe the best I can do is to keep reminding myself that everyone is different and I can't let myself believe I completely understand them or their situation. I find my most fundamental problem in relating to people in general is that so commonly people think that what works for them is best for everyone else. It simply isn't enough for many people to enjoy their freedom and leave others to their own.

Its hard not to be affected by some of the stories here and its hard not to comment. Its frustrating how often someone describes a heartbreaking situation and then immediately makes a 180 and starts defending it when the comments come in. Sure you can just not look, but it takes a better person than me to just ignore everything that bothers you. Reading others' stories certainly inspires many thoughts I feel compelled to write about but I'm not sure that's such a great idea. I've thought about using this blog space to write about "types" of situations thinking that might be less confrontational as I've seen others do but that seems a little passive aggressive or something. I'm not sure where I feel the line is between expressing inspiration you've gained from someone else and just talking about other people.

It is a little disappointing to see generalized finger pointing from others who have also bared their significant mistakes here. Again, we all handle guilt and consequences differently and perhaps a little misdirection can smooth ones feelings for their own decisions. Obviously my own guilt leads me to react at all. I am a deeply flawed person. Occasionally I do think that makes me unworthy of love. Thankfully there are at least two people in the world who do not agree. In the interest of not being completely ungrateful and dismissive of that, I am trying to work past my feelings of unworthiness. I can only move forward and focus on things that are actually productive in our relationship now. It is true, I would not prefer to cast aside bonds I have shared for many years in the name of starting over with a clean slate. I'm never going to be perfect. The other half of that decision is not mine. I think that's a matter for another post. So I'll leave off here, I know I am the luckiest idiot ever to have these two people in my life. I'm not going to feel bad about it any longer. So actually, thanks for the breakthrough on that!
 
Its been two weeks since I thought it had "sunk in" to work harder on checking in. The first weekend I failed terribly remembering only when we were at the bottom of a canyon. I had put it on the calendar that I'd probably be taking off but I know Jasper hadn't seen it. This past weekend I did it though and surprise! it feels a lot better. It makes me feel really good that Jasper has been very supportive of me getting out on the weekends. We have a TV date on Sunday nights and I send him pictures of where ever I've been. I hope he's got more time to get out of the house and accomplish his own stuff too. We really were spending a lot of time sitting around on the phone. We still do this, but in more manageable chunks. Some part of me worries this means we are starting to grow apart even though it seems a lot better.

I guess I feel a bit worried about how everything seems so easy right now. Herman and I are very happy. We've been having a lot of fun and talking a lot too. Jasper and I seem to be finding a better balance with our relationship and our local lives and have not had a fight in many weeks. We have all been very busy though. I wonder, is that the secret to success or is it just making it easy to ignore our issues? Jasper's moods seem to be some degree better than they had been last year. I wonder if it is being busy that is responsible for that as well. He has taken on a lot of new responsibility at work and is very stressed from that. He is getting a real work out managing anger, not taking things personally, and putting limits on the time he puts in and the amount of responsibility he takes on. From my view he's doing much better. I often feel at a loss for what to do to support him though.

We will all need to work together to get our group May trip planned which I know I've already waited way too long to get booked. Too busy having fun to plan future fun. I think I will have to stay home this coming weekend though, we have no clean clothes or food in the house at this point.
 
Last week Jasper called in the evening and I went into the bedroom to grab the phone and then instead of returning to the living room where I had been sitting, I just fell into bed and talked in there. Herman stayed in the living room past his usual bed time which I thought which was a little weird and I eventually got up to see what he was up to. He seemed short with me and sort of avoiding me asking questions and I was worried he was irritated by me suddenly ditching him for the remainder of the evening and sitting on the phone in another room. We eventually went to sleep and the next morning he said he was feeling pissy and I asked why but he wouldn't really answer. That's normal for him. He will get in a bad mood and considers it just a mood with no real problem attached to it. I'm not that way at all. If I'm in a mood, I try to figure out what is causing it. It is very hard for me to just let him be that way and not prod because then my mind starts looking for a reason on my own. In this case I assumed it was carried over from the previous night. We talked later during the day and it turned out he was anxious because he knew he would have to be dealing with some customer complaints at work. Totally logical and as per usual the world is not always revolving around me! I wish he had said so the night before but it's quite possible he didn't even recognize it as that until later. I wish I was able to just let these things go and I wish I didn't jump to feeling guilty about little things I do so quickly.

Later in the week I ended up involved in a situation I'm not yet at liberty to discuss but it was a real reminder of how great and easy my relationships are. I've never thought that the relative degree of ones issues means they are any less valid or worth working on but yeesh... I sure am grateful I have the luxury of worrying if someones slightly down mood has something to do with me or not. It has also cemented my recent thoughts that each one of us has got to be responsible for our own well being as individuals. I've been writing more on that I hope to actually get posted eventually.
 
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