Should I be a secondary while I am still single?

Quietfever

New member
I am 38 and single and a lesbian. Right now I am in the "stray single" situation evaluating whether I would get involved with women who are married and polyamorous. I seem to click better with attached bi women than with other lesbians and the lesbian monogamy model has been utterly suffocating and dysfunctional to me. I almost feel like I'm poly at this point because of monogamy PTSD... just some seriously bad situations in monogamous relationships and I'm reluctant to ever be in one again.

To be true to myself: I would very much like to live with the right person and share my life with them, with the commitment between us and the option of being close to other people as well.

To be true to my circumstances: there are plenty of people available if I am willing to be a secondary *only*. It's like needing a full time job but only temporary and part time jobs are available. In one or two of these cases, I am willing and care for these people and would like to see where it goes.

The trouble is - I don't really feel very hopeful that I will find someone of my own, and when I think about the other women being happy at home with their husbands, I feel envious.

Not jealous - not in an emotional or sexual way - but envious about having a home, and security, and a love to live with, and feeling like this is going to be much, much harder for me to find first of all because I am 38 and secondly because I'm gay and thirdly because I am an odd person who's had difficulty living with others in the past, so I don't know if I'm even primary partner material anymore.

Sigh.

It just brings up these issues - wondering if I will ever achieve any of my dreams. Many of the things I want (due to costs and such) are not as possible on my own as they would be with a mate.

I am also afraid that I will never have someone in my life for whom I am first priority... I will always be the person who is there when hubby isn't around :/
 
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I would argue that the reason you're finding difficulty in the monogamy world is not because you're a lesbian and/or dating other lesbians, but because you aren't finding the right people. I don't know your personality (introvert? extrovert?) but it sounds like you're picking people you clash with.

To take a page from GG (and hopefully she'll correct me if I screw this up), there are quite a few different relationship dynamics even when it's just you and one other person.

You to You (yourself as part of a larger couple)
GF to GF (how they are as part of the larger couple)
You to GF
GF to You
You + GF (as a team)

First you need to figure out the You to You part. How do you act when you're in a relationship? Do you take the alpha spot and make decisions and plans and organize? Do you take a back seat? Do you prefer lots of contact? Lots of space? What makes it work for you? What don't you like?

With almost every relationship that fails, the major building block that's missing is communication. Do you effectively tell your significant others that you are feeling smothered? Do you tell them that you don't want to be that close all the time? How do you tell them? Do you yell it at them during a fight or sit them down and say, "I can't do this for you. I love you, but this makes me squeamish. I know it's not you, I know it's me, but we have to have a middle ground."

Stop worrying so much about if you have a house/car/white picket fence/a cat/a dog/flowers in your garden/stuff you can only have with a partner. You're putting way too much pressure on any future prospects. Like them for who they are, and if they become life-long significant other material, then you'll get what you wanted.

On to your other question: No, I do not think you should be a secondary without a primary. Not because I don't think that dynamic can't work (I'm sure it can), but you already answered how it will make you feel. Like someone that only gets attention when hubby isn't around.
 
KyleKat lays it out tier wise if you are looking to be one on one with someone.
Like in a Closed Duo. Where you are each other's primary people.

You also sound like you want to be Open to other loves, but to maybe to start with you want to get the primary thing nailed.

I'd go seek it then, and nail it!

38 is hardly doddering. There's lots of people in late 30's and early 40's starting over with second chances. Why not you?

If you can handle a secondary relationship in the meanwhile and keep it secondary -- cool. You get some companionship while on the seeking journey and dating others. But if your personality is such to where you end up pining and wishing the secondary would... "primary-ify" and you hang around waiting and this is keeping you from the seeking... then better to be honest with yourself and just be alone while seeking without a secondary.

That's something only you can answer for yourself because you know you best.

HTH!
GG
 
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Some great points brought up already.

Here's my take on this - ok, so your ideal is to be in a live-in arrangement with someone, and then have other lovers, but what you are asking here (as I understand it) is whether you should have secondary relationships while you are waiting for that person to come along.

Well, two points - first, if they are going to give you an increase in your happiness and help you learn more about yourself, then why not?

Second, since you self-identify as poly, presumably you would want to carry that on even after you have found a live-in mate - so that wouldn't necessarily mean calling an end to your secondary relationships, right? (Presumably these people aren't wanting you to be a secondary to them and have no other relationships - that's kind of unrealistic on their part, if you are not happy with that).
 
I spent some time in only secondary relationships. It gave me the benefits of being both single and in a relationship! I got to learn some solid life skills and self sufficiency, while still having companionship, connections, and sex.

But I had to be pretty committed to the idea of spending some time as single, first. Once I liked that pretty well, then I was able to adjust, and okay, explore some secondary relationships, without feeling too lonesome or unimportant. My primary was myself.

But if you don't like the idea of being single, then I don't recommend it. It did get a little lonesome sometimes, especially around the holidays.
 
This all seems really sensible.

I guess what I'm wanting is to be part of a household - knowing my partner and I are really committed to each other, regardless of who else adds to our gestalt. I would not mind being part of a household. I want the "marriage/house/comfort/long term" kind of life that everyone else seemingly gets to have. I'm open to considering being "someone's other spouse" as long as I get to be a spouse at some point in my life!

There may be some inherent imbalance here because I'm lesbian, though, not bi.
 
This all seems really sensible.

I guess what I'm wanting is to be part of a household - knowing my partner and I are really committed to each other, regardless of who else adds to our gestalt. I would not mind being part of a household. I want the "marriage/house/comfort/long term" kind of life that everyone else seemingly gets to have. I'm open to considering being "someone's other spouse" as long as I get to be a spouse at some point in my life!

There may be some inherent imbalance here because I'm lesbian, though, not bi.

There are people out there that would accept you as you are. I would love it if my wife had a live-in girlfriend, even if she was lesbian and I never got to participate.
 
I find it interesting that you refer to yourself (in this thread and another post of yours) as a "stray single," which makes me thing of a stray dog without a home. It is clear in your first post in this thread that you want a committed partner to cohabit and share your life with, but I think your work starts with being happy now as a single person. Or call yourself solo, like I and some others do - it has a much better connotation. To me, calling oneself single, in this society, implies "until I'm not single anymore." But being solo means being unabashedly content to be independent and free!

Accept and find satisfaction in the here and now of your life as it is!!!

In another thread, just a month ago, you wrote:
I'm really at the point where I can barely imagine anymore a relationship that is happy and isn't emotionally abusive and I'm frightened of being under the same roof with anyone. :( I almost think I would rather be a "secondary" than a primary. It would take a LOT to make me want to live with someone again. I really, really, really want a long time of enjoying the trips together and the dating and the falling in love before we move on to arguing over who last did the dishes or whether or not someone paid their share of the phone bill.

Don't worry about labels like primary and secondary. We should all strive to be our own primaries, anyway. If you don't have yourself on your side, you have nothing. Why not wholeheartedly embrace your singlehood, with all its freedoms, autonomy, and wide array of choices before you, instead of looking at it like you're missing something and deficient until somebody comes along, scoops up poor little single you, and brings you home to take care of you - just like a stray. Gosh, have fun - you're single! Yay! Many partnered people envy the freedoms that go with singlehood (or "solohood").

You are lovable, but you need to love yourself first! Nobody wants a project in love relationships, but strong, confident, happy single people are very attractive. Then you will find people who gravitate toward you for healthy reasons, and you will have a strong foundation in your love for yourself and satisfaction with life just as it is, to make good choices about whom to involve yourself with, based on who they are and how they treat you, rather than what category they fall into in the poly world.
 
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I find it interesting that you refer to yourself (in this thread and another post of yours) as a "stray single," which makes me thing of a stray dog without a home. It is clear in your first post in this thread that you want a committed partner to cohabit and share your life with, but I think your work starts with being happy now as a single person. Or call yourself solo, like I and some others do - it has a much better connotation. To me, calling oneself single, in this society, implies "until I'm not single anymore." But being solo means being unabashedly content to be independent and free!

Accept and find satisfaction in the here and now of your life as it is!!!

In another thread, just a month ago, you wrote:


Don't worry about labels like primary and secondary. Why not wholeheartedly embrace your singlehood, with all its freedoms, autonomy, and wide array of choices before you, instead of looking at it like you're missing something and deficient until somebody comes along, scoops you up poor little single you, and brings you home to take care of you - just like a stray. Gosh, have fun - you're single! Yay!

You are lovable, but you need to love yourself first! Nobody wants a project in love relationships, but strong, confident, happy single people are very attractive. Then you will find people who gravitate toward you for healthy reasons, and you will have a strong foundation in your love for yourself and satisfaction with life just as it is, to make good choices about whom to involve yourself with, based on who they are and how they treat you, rather than what category they fall into in the poly world.

I agree on the single vs solo. Sounds to me like she's single and needs to accept it and become solo before she can be happy as a second, first, or anything at all with anyone at all.

When hope is lost all else fails. Don't give up hope!
 
Qf,

I get the sense from reading this thread and other things you've posted on the forum that you are considering secondary relationships with women not because you want and enjoy that kind of relationship but because you feel, deep down, it's the best you can get. I believe you would ultimately be miserable as a secondary. (Just my opinion, I could be wildly wrong.)

What you really want is a committed primary relationship, living together, building a life together. Perhaps that relationship is poly or open, or perhaps not. That's not important in this context.

If being in a secondary relationship makes you feel shitty, unloveable, and generally not as good, don't enter into a secondary relationship. (Kind of the reverse of CielduMatin's advice.) You're not doing yourself any favors nor are you doing a solid to potential secondary partners.

Value yourself enough to go for what you really, truly, want and desire most. A committed primary relationship with another woman. It may feel impossible and unachievable. That is false. Get yourself out there, push yourself to meet people. I'm introverted and a bit odd - it's not easy. Do it anyway.
 
If being in a secondary relationship makes you feel shitty, unloveable, and generally not as good, don't enter into a secondary relationship. (Kind of the reverse of CielduMatin's advice.) You're not doing yourself any favors nor are you doing a solid to potential secondary partners.
Yes, absolutely - totally agree.

Only do it if it's a net gain for you. Otherwise it's totally not worth it.
 
Being Secondary can be difficult at the best of times. There are periods of loneliness, doubt, insecurities, need for reassurance.

So, if you are already struggling with what it would mean to be Secondary, then I would strongly advise focusing your efforts and time on developing yourself and seeking the form of relationship that you truely desire.

However, attitude is everything! You have already determined that Monogamy is not for you. So if you seek comfort, part time companionship, friendship, by all means, date someone casually , as Secondary if need be, but keep a very open , clear mind about finding your own Primary. :D
 
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I realized today that although I am not technically a secondary to anyone, the girl I have been pining over has been less communicative (she's busy with work) and its resulting in a generally poorer mood for me. Secondary status is hard. Definitely tread with caution of you choose to go that route.
 
I have been thinking about this.

The woman who is the most likely person I'd become a "secondary" of - I would *never* feel like I was really equal status to her husband, it would always feel secondary, because they *are* legally married.

They are also very tight. Even if I got with her, I will never have the 15+ years she's had with him. I will always feel envious of that.

I find myself feeling not sexually/romantically jealous so much as deeply envious to the point of feeling very sad, because I wish I had something like she had, and every time she talks about things that she does with her husband, I think about how I don't have anyone to do those kind of things with and how I have had to settle and purge romance as a thought from my mind because it doesn't even seem like something I can find.

I do think I am more suited to being poly, but I don't think being a secondary while I am single really is going to work for me... it's triggering lots of deep seated feelings of being "last picked" or "unlucky in love" whereas when I am just single, I feel just single but not so triggered of all of these deep seated feelings from my childhood. These feelings have been there for so long and it's easier just to avoid sticky situations like this sometimes than to try to be in control over everything I'm feeling all the time.

The idea that I don't get to be someone's "favorite" is making me feel butthurt.

I'm finding I'm feeling more lonely, not less, because I'm always being reminded of something that I want but don't have. It's not as simple as going out to date and meet someone who could be my primary, because I don't meet dating partners very easily and am not in a life position where I'm likely to (I am gay but live deep in the burbs, am too financially strapped to socialize much, etc). I also find myself feeling envious of bi women because of the perception that men take care of them and take them out and I'm all on my own. My mother has pointed out that this is totally just how it looks on my side of the fence, it's not really like that in straight relationships.

I have always had issues about feeling like no one will ever want to share a home with me and I will never be "primary material", and this was made worse by being with a partner who for three years, every day, reminded me of how lucky I was that *she* was willing to tolerate me as little as she did.

This is not helping me. At least my singleness wasn't as triggery, it was just singleness.

Probably the only way such a situation *would* work for me is if I were in a shared household and in a "V" configuration I guess, as one of the hinges, but I still will probably feel triggered in my "left out/last picked" feelings simply because he's been there longer and has legal benefits of marriage.
 
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I do think I am more suited to being poly, but I don't think being a secondary while I am single really is going to work for me...
Based on what you have written here, I would tend to agree with you. It doesn't sound like the positive in any way outweighs the negatives that you know you are going to feel.

I applaud you loudly for doing this thought process before getting in too deep - so many folks just dive in, and then resent the situation when they don't get what they want. Better to look at it with open eyes before it gets to that point.
 
the importance of social dynamics and a second.

Hear is something to ask yourselves,
why do 50% of marriages and relationships in vanilla, gay and lesbian fail even more in polyamora?
what is the most important question in counceling before getting hitched that councelers never ask or is over looked even in divorce counceling.
its not jobs or money, sex, you like/love each other (most couples still believe sex is love) Answer; Its the social dynamics of the couple or the poly group.
Meaning the domianant submisive dynamic, most belive this is all about the sub being overburdened by the Dom where punishment is the order of the day, its not! its about common sense and the way nature intended, look around, look at nature, look at the animals, this should give you a clue. before getting into a meaningful relationship both have to figure out and lovingly accept each ones position, who will have the responcibility of being the dominant, the primary financial provider, the protector, the final dicision maker, and who will be the sub the comfort provider the gatherer, however the sub position will have equal say and respect as the dominant but he the male will have the responcibillity for the familly, I realize times are changing however its still most important to know ones position and respect it for a lasting relationship other wise their will be confussion,disrespect, and a chaotic relationship.
There can only be one king or a queen at one time not two, only one president, one dictator, one primeminister, one CEO, one pope, one leader, only one captain of a ship, this social dynamic is taken from nature, its natures way of creating harmoney among all its creatures. human couples where each is dominant will spend more time fighting for dominance of the other and their way only. two submissives will never get anything done, one waiting for the other to make a dicision, finances, life and house in chaose, with polyamory where a third is added, that third shall be sub to the wife or first female where she must be naturaly enthusiastic and want to be second to the wife where she can enjoy both, this aply's to a second male also. those that disagree that feel they should have access to the male at all times are usually in a chaotic relationship, should find their own male and have her own willing female sub, a willing female sub should be cherished and serviced by both, never to feel left out but a dynamic part of their loving relationship including sitting in on financial matters or planning social events, not feel put in a closit and let out to service the couple. unless this is what she craves as a happy masochist.
 
Hear is something to ask yourselves,
why do 50% of marriages and relationships in vanilla, gay and lesbian fail even more in polyamora?
Do you have *any* facts to back up this premise?

I'm not even quite sure what you are saying - that more relationships fail in poly or not? How do you define "fail"?

So I am struggling with your premise, which is probably one reason why I am struggling with the rest of this...

what is the most important question in counceling before getting hitched that councelers never ask or is over looked even in divorce counceling.
its not jobs or money, sex, you like/love each other (most couples still believe sex is love) Answer; Its the social dynamics of the couple or the poly group.
I'm not sure what your personal experiences with counselors has been, but talking about and identifying that dynamic has been a key part in any counselling that I have been in. It's rarely ever a blanket statement, either - in a balanced couple or triad (or V), different members of the relationship are dominant for different aspects of it. Aspects in include the bread-winning, keeping the financial books, making decisions about family and travel, children. Lots of examples.


however the sub position will have equal say and respect as the dominant but he the male will have the responcibillity for the familly,
That may be your dynamic, but it's not mine. I know of quite a few others where the male if definitely not the dominant in terms of responsibility for the family.

with polyamory where a third is added, that third shall be sub to the wife or first female where she must be naturaly enthusiastic and want to be second to the wife where she can enjoy both, this aply's to a second male also.
Why cannot this person also take over some aspect of leadership, where it makes sense? I know a few examples of triads with multiple primaries where the duties and leadership are divided between the three parties, according to their skills.

hose that disagree that feel they should have access to the male at all times are usually in a chaotic relationship, should find their own male and have her own willing female sub, a willing female sub should be cherished and serviced by both, never to feel left out but a dynamic part of their loving relationship including sitting in on financial matters or planning social events, not feel put in a closit and let out to service the couple. unless this is what she craves as a happy masochist.
While I may agree on some of this, the idea that a female that doesn't get what she needs should simply go out and look for another male is pretty derogatory to the female - why shouldn't she feel like bringing it up to the couple and expecting to have her needs respected and met, if it works? I don't agree that the secondary has to take whatever scraps the primary couple hands to them.

If this is the form of polyamory that works for you, then I really am not going to criticise it - what I am having a problem with is the way you stated this as if it is some sort of global truth about polyamorous relationships.
 
I think you are misreading me!

Couples relationships are hard in this economic environment, polly can be even harder and chaotic, jealousy is not sopposed to happen but it does, a second may believe she is more suited to the male but nobody realized this at first, or the male gives more attention to the second, that burns the first, A male is not always the dominant, some are so dumb they carnt even manage a check book, a female may be smarter and more positive in managing family matter,s.
All I am saying is that its better to know these dynamics going into a regular relationship even more so in a polly situation where there is more than the couple, family structure is a good thing, when each willingly does what they promis to do, then the group or family clann as a whole have more time to enjoy and play together and are much happyer, able to attain goels as a individual with support of the group, moving forward as a group to make life easyer and happy, other wise it falls on the same people doing for the others that causes resentment of being used, Of course their are others that may complain but actually enjoy living in a dump where every body is waiting for someone to do the laundry, do the dirty dishes, pay the rent where jealousy is ripe, where nobody cares and life is full of resentment hellish and chaotic, thats why its important to have a three month or less as a vetting period depending on the individuals.
Now you can pick this apart all you want,
thats my take and those of successful others and im staying with it.
 
In any relationship there are roles and responsibilities. For something to work for me those need to be flexible to allow for changes in circumstances, especially the health of the individuals, plus other things they may have going on in their lives.

So I struggle with prescribed roles that automatically make the third person subservient for that reason.

But, as I said in my first post, if it works for you successfully, then more power to ya. It wouldn't work for me, or the folks in my polycule, for the reasons I stated.
 
I find myself feeling not sexually/romantically jealous so much as deeply envious to the point of feeling very sad, because I wish I had something like she had, and every time she talks about things that she does with her husband, I think about how I don't have anyone to do those kind of things with and how I have had to settle and purge romance as a thought from my mind because it doesn't even seem like something I can find.

I do think I am more suited to being poly, but I don't think being a secondary while I am single really is going to work for me... it's triggering lots of deep seated feelings of being "last picked" or "unlucky in love" whereas when I am just single, I feel just single but not so triggered of all of these deep seated feelings from my childhood. These feelings have been there for so long and it's easier just to avoid sticky situations like this sometimes than to try to be in control over everything I'm feeling all the time....

...I also find myself feeling envious of bi women because of the perception that men take care of them and take them out and I'm all on my own. My mother has pointed out that this is totally just how it looks on my side of the fence, it's not really like that in straight relationships.

I have always had issues about feeling like no one will ever want to share a home with me and I will never be "primary material", and this was made worse by being with a partner who for three years, every day, reminded me of how lucky I was that *she* was willing to tolerate me as little as she did.

To get back to the original concern of the OP...

Feelings like insecurity, lack of worth are not going to go away once you do find a primary partner (or two). In fact, they can make you an easy target for those vicious souls who like to tear down others. (I am so sorry you experienced that. I wish being a lesbian automatically made one a good, kind, ethical person but it just doesn't work that way.) I realize you are in a difficult position financially but I encourage you to work on this part of yourself. Perhaps group therapy which can be less expensive? Sometimes counties or states have inexpensive therapy options for financially strapped folks.

Self-help books maybe? I recommend Loving What Is by Byron Katie. It's not specifically about self-esteem but teaches about how to think about one's own thoughts and the emotions connected to those thoughts. I've been finding it very powerful. Poke around - your suburban community might have some unexpected resources.

Do this for yourself - find the roots of your perception that there is or will be no one for you. It may be difficult - probably will be difficult but I can think of no better gift to give yourself (and your future honey's!)

It's funny how people perceive bi, fluid or pansexual people. I was married to a woman for 12 years. Now I worry that if I date a man, people will think I'm straight. (*gasp!*) I also worry that people will perceive me as being into women for play purposes only - that I'm into pleasing a man by performing in bed with a woman. This creeps me out and is not as uncommon an attitude as I would like. I make my own money and own my house (I'm very fortunate) so I don't worry so much about the financial part, but if I dated a man who was much wealthier than I, well, it might come up. (On the other hand, in my crowd, this is very unlikely! :D Bless their hippie, crunchy, non-capitalist souls!) At any rate, a fine example of the 'grass is always greener' adage.
 
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