Angry GF problem

kinkyshoes

New member
Hi all!

I've been reading the forums for a while, lurking and learning. :)

My partner Ann and I are both 34. We are lesbians and have been together for 7 years. We have a 2 1/2 year old son. We've been pretty fluid around the openness of our relationship at various times, and have had the usual associated problems with it being fluid, and therefore non-negotiated much of the time, which of course leads to heartache. But generally we've had a very strong relationship and have weathered the ups and downs really well.

We recently moved from a large city to a small town where we know very few people. It's been a difficult time and we've had some r/ship problems around Ann drinking/drugging/staying out all night and not sticking to any boundaries, which is totally new to me. These problems have been witnessed by our friends. Recently, Ann said to me that she was feeling suffocated in our r/ship, wanted to open things up, and I agreed. That has led to much more negotiation and her starting to adhere to boundaries, instead of acting rebelliously and stupidly. So even though it breaks the "rules" of having a really good, strong thing going and then opening up, it has instead taken our r/ship problems and fixed quite a few of them.

Ann has a special friend she has been seeing, whom I really like and am close to.

Now, I've started becoming very close to a woman, Trish, who is partnered with Karen, in a relationship that has very strict boundaries about her playing outside of it. One of the rules of their r/ship is no playing with anyone from the town we live in. I was equal friends with Trish and Karen at first. But in recent times, Karen has been extremely busy with work/study things.

Trish and I have became very very close and have been flirting heavily. We've had a bit of a kiss and cuddle, but we both agreed that we would back off so she could negotiate permission to sleep with me, once Karen's study thing ended. Trish has cheated on Karen in the past, and we agreed that the cheating thing was not on, so we would only move ahead if Karen agreed.

Trish went to Karen to renegotiate their boundaries. Karen absolutely flipped out and sent me abusive text messages, accusing me of seducing Trish, and being a liar and a bad friend. She also wrote terrible things about my primary relationship and accused me of only being interested in Trish to "sop up my misery" in my primary r/ship. She said that I knew their "no locals" rule and that I've shown her dreadful disrespect. I have since spoken to her and said I don't disrespect her, that I did not have sex with Trish, and that I had discussed with Trish that if she wanted to renegotiate their boundaries, then that was their business, and I would not be involved sexually with her until they did. But basically, Karen still hates me.

I guess I'm asking where to go from here. I have very strong feelings for Trish. We have an amazing friendship, with much of our time together based on family events with her kids and my family and friends (including Ann's lover). I would hate to lose her friendship and will be devastated if we can't spend time together. I have strong romantic feelings towards her, but mainly we are just very close friends who support and care for each other. Karen is furious and apparently the fighting at their place is dreadful over this.

Karen is leaving for a month overseas in three-days' time, which will mean I can spend as much time with Trish as I like until Karen's return. Should I be avoiding spending time with Trish while Karen is overseas? I'm concerned our strong feelings will spill over into sex, which goes against our original intention of openness and honesty. And I'm also worried that our relationship will become even stronger, and then Trish may be forced to choose between leaving their pretty much mono relationship to pursue poly (her preference), or to have no relationship with me at all and stay in her mono relationship.

Trish has already told me that she's always been able to compartmentalise sexual relationships separate to her primary r/ship, but that she has really intense feelings for me that make her want more of me all the time. We spark on such a deep and intense level. I haven't felt something like this since I met Ann. I'm currently staying away from Trish and Karen while they sort things out in the time leading up to Karen going overseas.

I'm feeling very confused. I thought we had done the right thing by sticking to flirting with each other until things could be negotiated, but now I've been painted as a "scarlet woman." I'm feeling very guilty for all the trouble this has caused them, but also I'm dreadfully missing Trish, and longing to be in contact with her.

I'd be grateful for any advice! Should I run away from this whole thing until they sort it out? Or should I stay close to the woman I have such a close connection with and ride out the storm?

ETA: Before Trish asked to renegotiate rules to be able to sleep with me, Karen had already asked for a "free pass" to fuck whomever she pleased during her overseas travels and was given it.
 
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Wow... you are definitely in a tough position.

I think that Karen and Trish have relationship issues that have nothing to do with you and Trish. Karen obviously dominates that relationship, and it sounds like she tends to want what she wants, but not give any in return. She cheated on Trish. She has been given a free pass to have sex while she is overseas, but she doesn't plan to extend that courtesy to Trish. That seems just wrong. Did she give Trish any permission and it's just because it's you, and there are emotions involved? Or was it a flat-out refusal-- just an, "I get to do this, but you don't," situation?

In all honesty, I would suggest that you back away from Trish a bit, to give her some time to sort out her relationship. I don't believe it sounds all that healthy, but she has to realize that for herself, if it's the case. Regardless, the feelings the two of you have for each other will probably only make it a harder decision for her. It may push her in a direction she otherwise wouldn't go in, and that might lead to resentment between the two of you later. Do Trish and Karen have kids together? That also would be a challenge, since they'd still need to see each other.

Do you think that you'd have been open to feeling what you do for her, if not for your partner Ann's behavior, that led to the relationship being opened up? I'm just curious. Is Ann no longer drinking and using drugs? That would be a major concern for me, given there's the child involved. It also almost sounds like she was putting you in a hostage situation. She acted out like a teenager and demanded a major change in your relationship, which you granted because it seemed honestly the better choice, between that and the behavior she'd been exhibiting, or just walking away from what had been a strong relationship.

I can see why you and Trish would be drawn together, given the fact that both of your existing relationships seem to have their troubles. I am glad things with Ann are better, and if you are truly happy in the open relationship, then that is wonderful. It's not that I don't believe it can work. I'm just a little hesitant to say that it IS working, given how it came about, and given the intense feelings you have for Trish now, who is also in a challenging situation with Karen.
 
Welcome to the Forum

Hello Kinkyshoes,

Quite a story. My two cents-- your friend Trish needs to work this out with Karen, to a place where they are satisfied with the terms before you become physically intimate with her, if you are to uphold your intentions of being open and honest all around. It sounds to me like it is important to you to do this.

If they have not agreed, then you should stay friends until they do, one way or another. If I were you, I'd stay friends with Trish while Karen is gone (whom you also described as your friend) and then, when she gets back, all of you can re-evaluate the situation. Respecting their relationship in the interim will show Karen that you are aboveboard and care about her feelings, that you are not willing to cheat, or using Trish because your own relationship is lacking.

If you do this behind Karen's back, it could really blow up in your face. As you said, Trish might have to choose when Karen gets back, and you may be hurt.

I hope you find the best answer for yourself.
 
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From what you said, it seems that Trish and Karen have a very unbalanced relationship, with Karen calling all the shots and Trish left unhappy. Are they into poly relationships, or is the open relationship model about sex only and not emotional attachment? Perhaps the emotions Trish feels for you are the big threat here. Also, Trish's former cheating (how did she "cheat" in an open relationship?) may still be having repercussions of mistrust for Karen.

This really doesn't sound like an issue you can have much say in. If Ann is all right with this, and you and Trish know your feelings, it is in Trish's hands. She has to decide what it is she wants, you or Karen, or both, and work towards that. By expressing your feelings, being honest, staying within the boundaries they've set so far, and talking to Karen even after the abuses, you have done pretty much all you can.

The remaining issues are theirs to face. All you can do is step back as far as you're comfortable and hope they work it out. I wouldn't stop a friendship based on a jealous gf, if I could help it, but wouldn't push the boundaries of that friendship, either, not while the negative effects are still so intense.
 
Karen sounds, in your story, as if she's one of the sort who doesn't mind "letting" their partner have sex with faraway strangers with whom there will be no ongoing emotional connection, but who must create elaborate obstacles which prevent their partner from forming other loving bonds. Many couples seem to have worked out a deal which allows for "just sex" -- and that only in other towns, far away (to be sure that no closeness could develop). For one or both members of such couples, it is outside emotional bonding that is verboten. And it is verboten, generally, because of intense insecurity. Such people may one day evolve into being capable of polyamory, but they aren't there yet.

As long as Karen and Trish are together, romantically, you're probably looking at a LOT of drama, if you should like to be even so much as a close friend with Trish.

Some folks just LOVE drama. I find it ... well, boring. Affection and love and joy and peace are not boring at all, to me.
 
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My advice is quite simple: run far away from the situation. Anything with that much drama involved is trouble... big Trouble with a capital T.

Karen and Trish obviously have major issues. The important point to keep in mind is that Trish is as much part of the problem as Karen. She's enabling all of Karen's drama, which indicates that she gets something from it. And she's likely going to try to get that sort of drama from you, should you get involved deeply.

It's not just an indication that their relationship isn't very good. It's an indication that each of them isn't in shape for a serious relationship.

I also suspect that Ann is struggling with depression. The move from the city to the smaller place appears to have left her reeling. While what you've done may be helping, I think she could probably benefit from a bit of counseling, too. So you may want to explore that with her (and some couple's counseling, perhaps).

Keep your stick on the ice. We're all pulling for you.
 
The important point to keep in mind is that Trish is as much part of the problem as Karen. She's enabling all of K's drama, which indicates that she gets something from it--and she's likely going to try to get that sort of drama from you, should you get involved deeply.

It's not just an indication that their relationship isn't very good, it's an indication that each of them isn't in shape for a serious relationship.

I had all of the same thoughts as SeventhCrow on this one, but held back on some of it. Now that Crow's saying it, I want to let y'all know that I am in complete agreement with Crow.

Some folks just gotta have lots of drama in their lives. So if it's drama you want, go for it. But if it is peace, love and joy you want, you might try another berry patch.
 
I am in total agreement with SeventhCrow.

Karen and Trish obviously have major issues. The important point to keep in mind is that Trish is as much part of the problem as Karen. She's enabling all of K's drama, which indicates that she gets something from it. And she's likely going to try to get that sort of drama from you, should you get involved deeply.

It's not just an indication that their relationship isn't very good, it's an indication that each of them isn't in shape for a serious relationship.

That's basically where my thoughts were going. If she is willing to settle for a relationship that doesn't seem especially fair or healthy, there is a reason for that, and it is probably going to result in drama that you, Ann and your child do not need in your lives, especially as you're coping with the issues Ann is facing following your move.
 
Thanks so much for your answers! You have given me SO much to think about.

Yes, Trish and Karen have had the agreement around having more non-amorous-style involvements away from home. This has been used more by Karen than by Trish, in many ways. While when Karen travels, she enjoys sex with people at conferences, etc., Trish is more of a poly-type person, who opens her heart to people.

The way Trish cheated was that she entered a relationship with someone without any negotiation, and continued it despite Karen's wishes. It ended up being that Trish can now no longer speak to that person at all. That was a year ago, and since then, Trish has adhered to all the rules that Karen had asked for in their r/ship, so I would think that she has proven her commitment to Karen.

To the person who mentioned depression: Ann does have depression, and moving here made it worse, in some ways. I don't think I was ransomed into opening the relationship. I knew the woman she was interested in starting a r/ship with. I like and trust her. I agree with poly and because we've done more of a swinging-type thing in the past, I was happier for that to be open to poly which (in my opinion) is family-friendly. Ann's lover loves our child and is very understanding of Ann's parenting commitments and helps out. (She took Ann to the doctor yesterday so I could stay home with our little boy, so he wouldn't be exposed to illness.)

Ann had started using alcohol quite a lot since moving here, which is unusual for her. She's always been a pot smoker and that escalated dramatically with the stress of the move and her underlying anxiety/depression issues. It had been real teenager stuff, but she really has snapped out of it, stopped using so much pot and really stopped drinking since we negotiated new rules for the r/ship. She has also started seeing a psychologist weekly to work through her depression issues. It's like, once the whole thing came to a head in a bang, then she really recommitted to her own health, to our relationship and to our family life. She was doing her messy smoking/drinking behaviour away from our child at other people's houses.

I should mention also that she and Trish are good friends and she's very supportive of my friendship and possible relationship with T.

I think it's fair to say Karen is very threatened by the idea of Trish being sexual with me, because she can see the connection we have and is probably frightened by it, which is understandable. She has said she has a "no locals" rule so she doesn't have to see people "all over her GF" when they go out, since it's a small town.

Trish and Karen both have a history of cheating in r/ships, and that's why they negotiated some openness in their r/ship, to allow for outside contact. The problem is, it allows for Karen's desired method of outside contact, but not for Trish's. Karen has basically said to Trish (from what I have been told by Trish), that if she wants poly, then that's the end of their r/ship.

(Luckily, this is a problem Ann and I don't have, since we've both been happy in the past with the more swinging style of contact, and are both happy with poly.)

I take it, from what Karen has said to me, that she thinks I was bullied into opening the r/ship and that we're really fucked up as a couple. Ann and I have never cheated on each other at all, or been involved on the other side of the cheating, either. Our stuff has always been out there to be seen and discussed, even when it's messy or awkward.

I have a very open style to being involved in a r/ship that allows the other person to be who they are, and me to be myself, too. This has been read before, by both Trish and Karen, as me being too accepting and "easy" on the other person. They are both people who have a more forceful r/ship style, who want to "do things" to fix problems all the time, instead of ever just letting things go along to see where they end up.

I have learnt over two longer-term r/ships that you can't force the other person to change who they are or do anything, but you can decide your own role in that, or reactions to it. I also think you can't judge an entire r/ship based on its worst times, and Karen doing that to me was cruel. I haven't judged her r/ship based on its worst times, and I'm sure others were happy to do that when there was cheating and stuff.

I think, after reading everyone's feedback, that I'll maintain my friendship with Trish during Karen's absence, and will remain committed to not sleeping with her. I feel already that I have tried to do the right thing and have not acted on our attraction. I have "not done the crime," but am still "paying the time." But compounding on that by doing the actual crime isn't going to help, is it? I understand the POV of the person who said to run away from their drama, but I really love Trish, and couldn't be without her friendship, where Karen's friendship I could give or take, in comparison.

I understand Karelia's concern about my feelings for Trish maybe arising out of the recent dramas. Trish and I have gradually developed our friendship over six months, and as we discover more and more about each other, we are discovering the more there is to like. We also discovered that we share a huge number of sexual kinks too, which has been eye-opening, to say the least LOL!

We have spent most of our time not so much on one-on-one stuff, but more in a family setting. It has been really strange for me to find my feelings really growing for Trish when it's over stuff like doing the dishes from cooking for our kids. Isn't that when you lose feelings for people normally? :p But seriously, my friendship with Trish has been like a Christmas gift where, as the layers come off, and we know each other more and more, it becomes that much more exciting and interesting. This is opposite, in many ways, to my attraction to others from the past, where it's been the immediate physical attraction thing + friendship, but never really gone deeper.

You know what? I feel so much better just being able to talk this over with you people! Ann and I are talking about it heaps, and she's been wonderful and supportive, but it's different because she's involved, too. Even though this has been difficult, it's also shown how much she's pulled her head out of her arse and really gotten her act together again.

No need to hold back on any answers or thoughts, I appreciate honesty and forthrightness.
 
You know what? I feel so much better just being able to talk this over with you people! Ann and I are talking about it heaps, but it's different because she's involved too.

Oh, I do understand that feeling! I am here because, as supportive and open as my husband and our girlfriend are, there are issues I sometimes need to sort out before I can bring them to my loves. And sometimes there are things that I'm upset or anxious about, and just talking about it or reading reactions to it makes me realize how insignificant it is, and that I'm overreacting (which I definitely do sometimes).

I understand not wanting to give up your friendship with Trish. I think that if you are able to remain firm in the face of temptation, it will work itself out. I do think that sleeping with her before she's resolved her relationship with Karen (either by allowing it, or by that r/ship ending), it will just create a very messy situation.

You mentioned that the time she cheated before resulted in her NOT speaking to that person anymore. That's what I'd remind her and yourself of when the temptation arises, which I'm sure it will, given the connection and the amount of time that Karen will be gone. It sounds like you value the friendship over anything sexual, and that is probably the thing that will keep you both strong.

It is good that Ann is getting help. That's definitely important. It's also good that she is supportive of what you are building with Trish, and that Ann's lover is supportive of your family dynamic.

I agree with you on the difference between swinging and poly. I could not swing. My best friend and her husband were swingers. I was semi-involved with them sexually before I met my husband (and early on, before there was a commitment between him and me), and I always had my doubts about him. I didn't know him well enough. She and I didn't talk for 8 years (not exactly related to that), but I was not even remotely surprised when she told me that one of the women they were with regularly, a friend she trusted, had been having an on-the-side affair with her husband, despite the three of them being sexually involved together.

I always got the impression that he would've been happy to get me alone. There were subtle hints, and it made me uncomfortable.

When I told her about our triad, she was telling me that she couldn't imagine that, because the emotions would scare her. For me, opening my marriage without that emotional connection would just break my heart. It would taint our marriage. I am *not* judging anyone else's choice. I'm just saying I couldn't go that route. Our GF was a HUGE surprise. But the love is what makes it worth the effort and any risk of getting hurt.
 
Well, I just got the most breathtakingly nasty SMS from Karen again, saying I've tried to ruin her life and relationship and haven't succeeded and that if I don't keep my p*ssy in my pants while she's overseas, that she'll "tell the whole town wot a predatory skank u r".

Wow. This is way too much for me. I forwarded the message to Trish so she'd know what was going on. We had a chat. She said Karen is in a rage 24/7 about the whole thing, to the point that Trish is frightened. She'll come around later today so we can talk about where to go from here. Considering we haven't done anything wrong (we don't think we have, anyway) neither of us want to give up the friendship, but I'm not sure how that can be possible, given Karen's massive reaction to Trish and me asking for permission.

I just find Karen's "high moral ground" approach on this very strange. She once made a TV movie showing her engaging in sexual activity with random fetishist men (she is disabled). So everyone in town has seen she is not sitting in a corner with her legs crossed. She has cheated on partners and been involved in cheating from the other side. She knows full well I never have, but she reacts this way? I assume it's from a position of fear, and she's doing the equivalent of pissing all over "her territory" before she goes away so I won't touch it.
 
Wow, I'm sorry. I hope Trish realizes that her relationship might have some very, very serious issues. It sounds like she doesn't have a lot to work with, where Karen is concerned. This is very sad for them, but you don't deserve to be treated badly because of it, either.

((hugs))
 
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