Wanted: Advice about an affair that may not wait

Hey there :)

In regard to the counseling, we knew a therapist when we started out who was a friend of ours and we told her about our 'problem' and what we may do about it. After two weeks and some updates on our part, she told us that she would be out of clients if everyone would be like us. Meaning: we simply talked about everything among the three of us and it worked for us in such a way, that we were able to feel understood by the other(s), solved the problems at hand and were satisfied with the outcome.

I was worrying about the same things your wife seems to have in mind right now and the reassurence of my partners made me forget about it. It is terrifying to love this much and suddenly worry about the well being of not one but two people that are dear to you. I know the problem she has with guilt and insecurity in this sitaution. Everything is so new and one needs to get a grip on the things going on. This doesn't happen over night.

Most problems simply disappeared with time and good communication in our case. But if you feel the need to talk to a third, uninvolved party, go for the therapist sessions. I don't think it will hurt if you pick someone who is able to look at your situation from an unbiased point of view.
 
As much as my wife keeps saying she feels so lucky to have two sexy, mature and passionate partners, her good fortune inevitably leaves her feeling guilty and fearful that she could wind up hurting one or both of us. I don't see how, so long as she continues to be open and honest and trusts me with being able to handle her having this other relationship.

Maybe I should worry about what a therapist could draw out of me. Hell, I didn't know I could deal with my wife having another lover until confronted with that actually happening. There have been lesser confessions that have followed, but with the doors blown open to the previously unimaginable, I'm a little fearful what I may say and whether it's anything my wife needs to hear or can handle.

I just want you to really see that you're using double standards. You want her to trust you with handling who she really is, but you're doubting her ability to handle the authentic you? Stop that!
 
Which brings to mind a new question: What would you and other Senior Members think about my wife and I seeking a poly-minded therapist proactively? We talked about this last night.

I think it's a great idea. I love therapy. If I could afford it, I'd go every week just to always stay on top of things. But my counsellor charges $90 an hour, and I can't justify $400 a month just for maintenance. That, and my counsellor isn't interested in long-term clients. She likes to address what's going on right now, and then do "life coaching" afterwards (which amounts to an occasional phone call to touch base). That reminds me, I was supposed to set up an appointment...
 
I think it's a good idea.

Think of it as relationship maintenance. You don't buy a car and drive it until the wheels fall off, you take it in every now and then to have the filters changed and the brake fluid topped up. Even if you know how to change the oil yourself it doesn't hurt to have a professional look it over once in a while - particularly when you've just had the gearbox replaced.
 
I think it's a great idea.

Would suggest the gf layout the situation for her lawyer and separation agreement before getting too hot and heavy. You wouldn't want that coming back to bite her on some technicality. You think he's being a dick now...things can always get worse. Has he / she told the kids yet? They might need the name of the poly friendly counselor.
 
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I think it's a good idea.

Think of it as relationship maintenance. You don't buy a car and drive it until the wheels fall off, you take it in every now and then to have the filters changed and the brake fluid topped up.

LoL sometimes I do... For a while, I found it was cheaper to buy old junkers on their last legs and drive them until they were good for nothing but scrap. Oil changes are only necessary if you plan to drive the car long term. You can go quite a ways by just throwing in a litre of oil here and there.

However, I do not recommend that approach for relationships :)
 
:p Allow me to rephrase then.

You don't buy a car you want to keep and drive it until the wheels fall off.
 
:p Allow me to rephrase then.

You don't buy a car you want to keep and drive it until the wheels fall off.

hehe sorry, I didn't mean that in a disagreeing kind of way. Your analogy, either version, is very apt. If you buy any car and don't do regular maintenance, you will drive it into the ground and then you won't have your car any more.

I'm sure most of us have met people that are fun to date and hang out with, but we can't imagine setting up a life together. With "fluff" relationships, you don't have to worry about dealing with your deep issues together, because it will never be serious enough to matter. For 20 years, my husband was quite content to work that way. He'd meet women, date them for a bit, and hit the road the moment it started getting serious. In other words, first time the car needed an oil change to keep running, he'd scrap it.

My current car is still 15 years old (literal car). But I love that car. The transmission just went on my last road trip. Crossroads: Do we dump $1200 into an old car, or scrap it? Well, he'd already spent $1000 last Christmas putting in a new stereo and remote starter. We knew the car's history better than a new car. So we asked the mechanic to find everything that could go wrong in the next 3 years. For $2700, I got my car to where it will run for years. A new car would have cost about that much, and it wouldn't have a kickin' stereo or remote starter, and most of all, I wouldn't know about the new car's mechanical issues until they flared up.

It's funny how much that mirrors relationships. A lot of people are willing to throw out 15 years of investment just because there's some big problem that will be really hard to deal with. They think that just getting a new partner will be some kind of solution. But that new partner isn't going to be perfect, she'll have her own set of issues and you won't know about them all at the beginning.
 
BraverySeeker, GalaGirl, you both write so beautifully and from the heart--I am straight, but I think I could fall for either of you in a heartbeat. I love your authenticity and how well you express it.

Bravery, I was where your wife's gf was. In a rocky marriage for 25 years, to a basically decent guy who was challenged by an abusive childhood, adult ADD, and being bipolar. It all left him moody, a loner, not big on being touched outside the bedroom, a high-functioning alcoholic, and intensely high-strung.

I was no picnic, either. Contracted a chronic, relapsing-remitting illness early in our marriage. Completely wrecked our plans for me being Type A go-getter corporate girl while hubby stayed home and wrote novels. We never really recovered our balance or made new intentional life plans. We just put our heads down and got through each day. Some days--many days--were really great and really fun and really rewarding. Many others were awful.

I had been telling my husband for several years that I--a touchy-feely extrovert--really needed physical, non-sexual connection with him, and also just plain TIME with him (he spent most of his spare time when not working drinking and either shooting pool or playing guitar in a studio on our property). I told him over and over, sometimes earnestly and slowly and with love, that it did not feel to me that he loved and valued me. (He not only never told me he loved me, he also did things like averting his face when I tried to hug him, and, when I gained some weight, refusing to look at me when I was naked.)

And then I met a guy online--and my world shattered. Perhaps it's more accurate to say it was broken open. I fell, and fell hard. We had three weeks of intense email communications and phone calls before I knew I had to tell my husband--I didn't know what was happening with this poly guy I'd met (I'd never even heard of polyamory), but I knew it was serious and significant and was blowing my mind. So that's pretty much what I told him: I've met someone, and I have no idea what this is, but it's significant and you need to know about it.

He was shocked. Either he hadn't heard me all those years, or he hadn't taken me seriously, I guess. I asked him to please not make me choose between him and my new guy, because I honestly didn't know what my answer would be.

At first he was mildly interested in a quad (but my new guy's wife had no interest in that---and I don't know that I did, either). Three months in, he agreed that new guy and I should meet (we lived in different states). We did, and it was an indescribable experience, as if everything I had been missing for 25 years had been laid before me by a benevolent universe. But I came home to a crushed husband; he truly thought I would "get it out of my system" and be done with it.

I had started seeing a therapist to sort out my feelings. Why was I falling for a virtual stranger? Was it bad? Was it good? Was there something horribly wrong with me? BTW, the first therapist I saw claimed for the first three sessions to be open to the idea of polyamory, but on the fourth visit suddenly lunged at me and said, "Who do you actually know that does this? I don't know anybody that does this! People don't DO this!"

Needless to say, I found another therapist, through a referral from a local poly group in the area I was living then. He was gay and open to all kinds of different lifestyles. He never counseled me to break up with my by-then boyfriend, but he did want me to give my marriage a chance, if only so I could proceed forward with no regrets (especially since my son was still quite young at the time).

I tried and tried to get my husband to come to therapy with me. He did, once. But told me he would only come to therapy if I would "give up" my bf. (Not set aside temporarily, not put on hold, but give up.) At that point, my bf felt like the only oxygen mask in a plane that was going down, my only point of sanity. I refused. My husband refused to go to therapy. And although it took another year for things to grind to an end, that was basically that. He started drinking even more, took to sleeping in the studio, emerging in the middle of the night to appear in my bedroom, drunk, to verbally berate me. I got sicker from the stress.

My husband started looking worse and worse to me compared to my bf, who is a lovely, evolved, open-hearted, wise, conscious human being. I did not leave my husband for my bf--who is married and not available for a primary relationship. But I left because having met him, having seen his marriage and how it works, I knew for the first time in a couple of decades that not only did I deserve more, but that more was POSSIBLE.

So I tell you all this--ALL this, sorry to go on so long!--to tell you I think I get where your wife's gf is. Once my eyes had been opened to what the possibilities for intentional, conscious, mutually supportive, and healthy relationships with actual grown-ups who talked about their feelings and their concerns and co-created their lives, I couldn't go back, any more than I could unring a bell. And my husband proved incapable of moving forward.

No real advice here, just an overly long sharing. My bf, BTW, tried hard to reach out to my husband (he still hasn't given up, after six years!), but has been largely rebuffed and blamed for the end of our marriage. We still remain hopeful, after all this time, that my now-ex will see the advantage of getting on the same page, if not becoming friends. Especially now that my bf has a significant role in my son's life.
 
So I tell you all this--ALL this, sorry to go on so long!--to tell you I think I get where your wife's gf is. Once my eyes had been opened to what the possibilities for intentional, conscious, mutually supportive, and healthy relationships with actual grown-ups who talked about their feelings and their concerns and co-created their lives, I couldn't go back, any more than I could unring a bell. And my husband proved incapable of moving forward.

Very helpful and interesting story, thank you for sharing.
 
Thank you, playswellwithothers and Vixtoria in particular, for sharing your experiences and insights about what my wife's GF is likely experiencing. You have helped me wrap my head around what she's going through.

I have my wife relaying pretty much blow-by-blow what steps her GF's taken and how her husband has responded and how much pervasive sadness there is in it all. But honestly, I still didn't grasp fully what motivated the GF to initiate the end of her marriage now and not years ago or months from now. Although I don't know that the GF consciously sees my wife and I as having the model relationship, she has acknowledged it stands in contrast to her own. I think it's really her discovery of my wife and how she feels for her that has opened her eyes to the lack of passion and love in her marriage she has passively accepted for too long.

As for me, it's another dawn. But not just another day. Thankfully it will be a busy one in which I will go to the gym, take my son to his soccer game, and help my wife entertain friends from out of town. At some point she'll prepare a meal for the kids and I tonight. She'll be absent as she and the GF go out before spending the night, their first together, at a nearby hotel.

My wife expects a lot of uninterrupted and unhurried crying and holding. I, of course, expect the intimacy will not end there.

I'm OK with this. I am, right? I mean, I intentionally bought the box set of the third season of Community to keep my occupied tonight. If that's not sufficient, I've got a well-stocked mini fridge of craft brew to help relax my restless and idle mind. The last thing I want to do is be back here tonight on this forum, inebriated and claiming this was all a huge mistake. There's no need for me to be crying, too.

No, I'm in as healthy a state of mind as I've been since this chapter in our lives started several weeks ago. I trust my wife that she can follow her heart and still keep me close. She was an amazing, gorgeous, brilliant and passionate woman when I met her, when both of us were merely teenagers. I couldn't have imagined then all that she would become, from a much sought-after healer, phenomenal mother to an incredible lover.

As I've watched her grow into an even more amazing, gorgeous, brilliant and passionate adult woman, it occurs to me that I've never had her all to myself. She's lived her own life, one of her choosing, and I've been so fortunate to witness it all. I've shared her with her mentors, colleagues, friends and family. She is now sharing herself with another love, another lover. That category is all that's new. I know this doesn't change the fact that she chose me as her life partner. She keeps reminding me of that and how much she loves me and "isn't going anywhere" without me.

I'm amazed and humbled by this woman. I always have been. I love her immensely. I do I do I do.

And I'm looking forward to watching Community tonight. 22 episodes, not counting the special features.

Bring it on.
 
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Brave, it's okay to be okay and not okay with it, you know? It's a new thing for you, it's a big deal. You sound like you're in a good emotional space with your wife, that both of you have put in a lot of work on YOUR relationship while she develops another with her gf. You've made plans to occupy and take care of yourself tonight. Your heart is in a good place.

AND. You could freak out. I'm not wishing it on you or predicting it, but it could happen. AND THAT WOULD STILL BE OKAY. It wouldn't make you a crappy husband or a horrible human being and it wouldn't mean you can't handle this or that your wife has to stop this polyamory thing immediately or your head will explode.

So if you have a hard moment--or several of them--just be with that. Be gentle with yourself--you've grown so much in such a short space of time! There are bound to be growing pains along the way. There may be "no need" for you to cry--but you might cry. Whatever feelings you have in the moment will have a beginning, a middle and an end. Ride the wave. Reach out to people here. Cradle and love your sweet self. Be the kind and tender companion to yourself that you already are to your wife.

And careful with the craft brews, hey? Alcohol and other depressants can add fuel to the fire if you get triggered.

Personally, I am fond of writing long email rants and screeds (IMPORTANT: without addresses, 'cause then I can't accidentally send them!). Sometimes I save 'em for a day or two, but mostly I delete them.

You may still feel like you're seeking bravery, but I see that you are already there, holding it in your open heart and open mind, cupping it gently in your hand. This is what bravery looks like in action. Allowing. Releasing. Letting go of attachments to specific outcomes.

Wishing you a peaceful night of self-growth, self-care, and restful, deep, healing sleep.
 
Just saw her off. She said she'll be home sometime before noon tomorrow, which made me involuntarily swallow hard.

The kids made it difficult for me to properly or convincingly assure her I'll be fine in her absence tonight, so I just texted her "Worry not about me. Love her."

She responded, "Make me cry ..."

I'm heading into the evening properly exhausted by 90 minutes of pool running and stationary biking (I'm a self-rehabbing runner) followed by two hours of raking leaves. With any luck, I'll pass out soon after the kids are bathed and put to bed. I'm counting on that actually.

Thank you, playswellwithothers, for "tucking me in" with your kind words. I sincerely appreciate you and all the others on this board who have chimed in with advice and support. As my wife and I have said to each other a couple times, "if anyone can make this work, it is us." Tonight I want to include all of you in the royal "us."

Thank you thank you thank you.
 
B1 and I are a couple of discs into season 2 of Community. We'd both somehow missed it on TV and are loving it. I saw season 3 in the store last week and demonstrated great self control in not buying it immediately at full price.
 
Hey, Brave,

Just wanted you to know I'm out here, and you can reach out any time. Here, email, whatever.

I think I'm so moved by what you're doing because my own husband wasn't able to do this for/with me. It doesn't make him a bad person, but it made me really really sad that I was heading full-heart into a way of living and loving that he simply couldn't accept. Still tears me up, even after three years of separation.

I couldn't convince him that my love for my partner wasn't going to take away any of the love I had for him. He saw love as finite; I didn't. You don't, and even though this first time, and others, may be hard, you already know what's true for you and your wife: you love her even more for all the love she has to give the world. And you know what? She loves you right back for just the same.

love,
Play
 
Braveryseeker,

I think you're pretty amazing.

I'm a married woman who recently fell hard for another woman, and unlike you, my husband has offered more resistance and resentment than support and understanding. Though after many tears and fights, he has "allowed" me to have a relationship with her, it is strictly DADT and she is not supposed to intrude on our life together in any way. Unlike your wife, I am unable to spend a night with my lady love, unable to talk about her with my husband (to whom I normally tell everything.) I am unable to be with her except during blissful, stolen hours while husband is at work.

So go easy on yourself, you are clearly an unbelievably generous, confident, and evolved human being, and I'm guessing your wife gets that totally.
 
Update:

The GF, who recently separated from her husband, has been staying at our house since Friday. She was here through last night and may be back Wednesday night, after which she'll go back to staying with other friends. She and my wife spent a few hours over the weekend looking for a rental for her.

I was pretty nervous before she came Friday night, concerned about the sleeping arrangements. They were respectful of my squeamishness, opting not to share a bed. But two nights ago I asked them to stop acting like I didn't know they have been occasionally locking lips when I was in another room. It was awkward saying so, but I reminded them that no one here was having an affair and the sneaky high schooly stuff was starting to annoy me. I really didn't want to have to start stomping around my own house and clearing my throat before entering a room so they could stop doing what they were doing and pretend they weren't doing it.

Then yesterday morning I suggested to my wife that the two of them sleep together that night. This giving of "permission," like others I've previously "granted," was made in a post orgasmic state. I find myself soaking in compersion juices at such moments, so I tend to bring up brave and/or reckless ideas, usually to urge my wife to follow her heart and loins.

Honestly, I have grown more comfortable with the two of them together in the house. The GF is a cute, pleasant, sharp and rather shy person (much like my wife on all counts), who comes out of her shell on the rare occasions around me when she's not dwelling on the cratering of her marriage.

I figure the GF won't be in a place of her own for awhile yet, and rather than make them get another hotel room (where they spent their one and only night together so far a couple weeks ago) so why shouldn't they be together now?

But it raises a question: Do more experienced poly folk have rules/restrictions regarding one or the other primary partners having another sexual partner overnight at the primaries' house? Our kids are pretty little and clueless now (which could be dangerously naive of me to assume) so my wife and her GF can get away with it being in the downstairs guest bedroom together.

I'm being told that I may be too eager to please and that I may be sacrificing my own emotional well being. That could be true. But because I see their relationship as being a likely long-term thing, I guess I figure that we should all just try to get comfortable with that fact. Of course, we could be working toward that at a slower pace than we are.

In any case, my wife was noncommital yesterday morning. But when I got home about 9 p.m. last night from a meeting, the two of them were nearly asleep on opposite ends of the couch. Not long thereafter, I said goodnight and went to bed. Not until my wife came upstairs, brushed her teeth, kissed me and said, "See you in the morning," did I know she was spending the night with the GF.

Initially I was PO'd there wasn't a final conversation about it. But I had promoted it and even texted her late the previous morning to reassure her I was OK with them sleeping together in the house that night. Maybe it was better I didn't get much notice that it was really going to happen. Still, I was still up pretty late, reading and unable to sleep.

As I've told my wife, I think I'm less jealous than missing her in bed with me. Is that a fair distinction?

So this morning, everyone pretty much acted like nothing unusual happened. The GF even made breakfast for the kids.

On another front, the estranged other husband called me out of the blue late last week to ask me when my wife and I decided to open our marriage. Truthfully, the thought never occurred to us before my wife and his fell for one another. But although I do not know him, I do know he is understandably distraught by his wife leaving and demonstrably incapable of seeing her years of unhappiness with him as being unrelated to her new love for my wife.

I replied that I didn't think he was asking the right question; that it was probably too late for him to show a willingness to accept the relationship between our wives. The question he should be asking, I said, was not how to open their marriage but how to end their marriage as amicably as possible without scarring their two teenage boys.

I was under the impression that his wife had asked for a divorce. She has said that outcome seems inevitable - but she's said that to my wife, who relayed it to me, but has been much less forthright with him. So it looks like I spoke out of turn. "I guess you know much more than I, because she won't talk to me," he said.

Fuck.

That side of this situation is very unsettling to me, and I hate being pulled into the middle of it. Yes, he should know by now that his wife wants to end their relationship. But until she's unafraid to ask for divorce, he will continue to flail about, assume the separation is temporary, and say he'll try anything to get her back.

On another note, my wife and I are scheduled to see tomorrow morning for the first time a poly- and kink-positive therapist - a woman who told us on the phone that if we're "looking for someone to make us feel bad about what we're doing, then I'm the wrong therapist for you."

I'm a little scared. I'm a little excited. I've never had therapy, so I'm not sure what to expect from this first 90-minute session. Anything that helps keep my wife and I communicating and committed to each other I'm willing to try.

In that way, I'm like the other husband. Only having more success at it.
 
But two nights ago I asked them to stop acting like I didn't know they have been occasionally locking lips when I was in another room. It was awkward saying so, but I reminded them that no one here was having an affair and the sneaky high schooly stuff was starting to annoy me. I really didn't want to have to start stomping around my own house and clearing my throat before entering a room so they could stop doing what they were doing and pretend they weren't doing it.

How I know this :rolleyes: But from the other side. I was so uneasy around my men because I wasn't sure how to behave to not upset someone and don't hurt anyone's feelings. My husband was like you, he didn't wanted us to be on our toes all the time but it was a theme for some weeks/ months nevertheless because we simply needed to find our routine with each other and ease into what felt right or not that good when all spend time with each other.

But it raises a question: Do more experienced poly folk have rules/restrictions regarding one or the other primary partners having another sexual partner overnight at the primaries' house? Our kids are pretty little and clueless now (which could be dangerously naive of me to assume) so my wife and her GF can get away with it being in the downstairs guest bedroom together.

We live together therefore this plays into my answer here but we simply scheduled our nights. That worked well right from the start and we still stick to it. It prevents this 'Uh?! Was that tonight?' moment you mentioned. When you interact on such a close level with each other I guess you won't keep your kids out of it completely. It seems that kids are perfectly alright with the situation at home as long as it's stable and loving. They won't care if you don't. If you want to keep it from the kids, try not to use the house and not live together in the long run :) And even then they may notice when they grow up.

And regarding the 'getting away' thing: Didn't you say that you do not want them to tiptoe around? This sounds like you expect them to do so around the kids. You should be clearer about your expectations (if you didn't already talk about it with them).

I'm being told that I may be too eager to please and that I may be sacrificing my own emotional well being. That could be true. But because I see their relationship as being a likely long-term thing, I guess I figure that we should all just try to get comfortable with that fact. Of course, we could be working toward that at a slower pace than we are.

Stop being told and stop listening to others. Just ask yourself: Are you feeling OK? If yes: fine! If not, search for the things that make you uncomfortable. I was really worried that my husband may overestimate his possibilities in this new relationship style and jump right in the middle of everything and not be prepared for it. Turned out that he knew well what he could or couldn't do. I learned to trust him, but I really got on his nerves the first few weeks when I constantly doubted his motives and the truth behind his words as I was worrying if he may just say so to please and ease me.

We jumped right in. I wasn't sure that this was the right thing to do, but all of us felt that we needed to. This was alright in the end. If you feel comfortable (besides from the nervous feeling of new-ness that should be there in general) you will be OK. Remember to check in with each other and stay connected during this phase of transition.


As I've told my wife, I think I'm less jealous than missing her in bed with me. Is that a fair distinction?

Totally valid, I would say. I heard the same from my husband in the beginning. Our routine was slowly but steadily changed by this new person in my/our life and we needed to adjust to that.

Good luck with your first session and I think that you are totally right to feel uncomfortable with being pulled into the midst of the divorce. I would speak up about this and tell the GF what you think about it and how it upsets you. You don't have to be part of that if you don't want to, that's her thing to handle. But from my point of view the way she handles it would be of interest to me. Someone closely connected to my family and partner should behave in a way I could agree to. But that is up to discussion and a personal point of view.
 
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Phy stole all the advice I was going to give, pretty much down to the letter! Ah, well.
 
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