Postmortem

Experiments continued

I also went to a private swing party for the first time recently. Whip and I went. He's very into public play, including sex, and it was something I was curious about if I would like it as well. I'm glad he went because otherwise I doubt f I would have gone on my own.

It was not a successful experiment in that I want to do it again. I learned a lot about myself. I mentioned in another thread that I'm not a voyeur or an exhibitionist. This is where I learned that for sure. Watching others have sex that I am not involved in is pretty dull. Maybe if I cared more for the people participating? (The other people at the swing party were acquaintances or I didn't know them at all.) Possibly but even then I think if I wasn't involved, it would not be so interesting.

And having others watch me is something I don't mind, particularly if I don't notice others watching as I'm absorbed in what's going on. But it doesn't do anything for me either. I just don't get off on watching or being watched. Without those kinks, well, sex parties turn out to be rather boring.

I also reinforced for myself that sex without some connection is not very interesting either. I need to have either instant chemistry with someone - which is very rare for me - or develop that chemistry a bit over time. I need at least some interaction beyond just meeting; this doesn't have to be much but I do need it I discovered. This was something I wondered about.

So lots learned. Much of which I already intuited but wasn't certain about.
 
I've been getting into tarot lately. I did a relationship spread for myself and Beaker. There is a card that represents what the two people have in common. The card I got for that spread was one of mourning. I decided that meant we were both mourning the death of our marriage. I know I still am although it's a quieter, less intense pain.

I knew when we broke up in September that this was it. There would be no getting back together. And that has just been reinforced for me lately. We are both getting on with our lives. She's finally trying online dating. I want her to find someone that meets her needs and thinks she's as awesome as I think she is. Of course, I anticipate when she actually does find that someone, I'm gonna have a freakout. And that's ok.
 
I may start another blog with a different name. This one was mostly to deal with the end of my marriage. While I'm not done dealing with that by any means, there are other things going on that don't really feel like a postmortem kind of thing. Not sure what to call it yet.
 
Lovely weekend

I had a great weekend. And something happened that made me wonder.

I went with a couple with whom I've become very good friends over the past few years to a bookstore where we hung out and then met a few of their friends for dinner. Good times.

They drove me home and came in and chatted for a while. Nothing heavy, just this or that and lots of laughter. More good times.

The wife goes and curls up behind her husband who was sitting next to me. Then he invites me to curl up with them.

And I did.

I curl up next to him, laying my head on his arm while he leans back against her - I am also laying partly against her. He strokes my arm, as we all relax and continue talking.

I've posted here and in other threads how I don't get non-sexual cuddling. Cuddling usually feels sexual to me and it's something I do with lovers. And I still don't get it mostly. But maybe I am closer. God, it was just, lovely.

I also got a glimmer of why all these people want to be in triads. I've never really understood that. I just wanted to turn to both of them and pull them in to me. I didn't but really wanted to. And it was not solely because of sexual attraction although that is certainly there for me. I adore these people. They've been very good to me and they certainly did not have to. I think the world of them as individuals and as a couple.

So, I wonder...
 
I have a hard time doing non-sexual cuddling with my husband, but have no problem with people I'm not in a sexual relationship with. With husband, at some point one of us will end up turning the cuddling sexual, so when I don't want to go there, any cuddling will make me anxious and I can't let myself enjoy it. With non-sexual friends, I already know, as do they, that it has nothing to do with sex and I relax enough to just enjoy the closeness of a friend.
 
Pasted from another thread.

'I am kinda at the other end of this than you. I am a single woman who is developing a FWB type relationship with someone who is married. All above board, everybody knows, blah blah.

But I have been feeling very uncomfortable and weird about seeing him, about being touchy with him, even though that is totally fine with both of them. She seems to think I'm a decent person. We're not interested in each other sexually but I like her and enjoy her company. He and I are going slowly, talking a lot and so on. They are not the issue.

I realized that I feel guilty. I have never been involved in any way with someone in a couple. And it feels so strange to me to touch someone else's husband, especially when she is around and might see! And I still feel weird when she isn't around - just not as much. Clearly some monogamy programming to deal with. So I've decided to talk to her more directly. We've talked but not explicitly about the developing FWB with her husband. I think that will help with the guilt. And I continue to feel it, acknowledge the weird, and try to move on.'
 
From Sparklepop in another thread. It has much wisdom for me and so i wanted to make sure i saved a copy.

"From your BF's perspective, it sounds like understandable fear to me. He found himself in love with a polyamorous person - not just any polyamorous person, but the wife of his best friend.

When fear kicks in, what do we, as humans, do? Often, we seek a safe place. Fear is so often seen as a negative thing - but I think it is actually a developmental, human, red flag - survival instinct. What stops us from running out blindly across the road to go and get food from our favourite restaurant when we are starving? Fear of being hit by an oncoming car. So we stop, look both ways, consider our options, and cross when it's safe.

Emotions work in the same way - yet, often, we do not realise it. (Anecdote): throughout her young adult life, my girlfriend turned to copious male attention when she is feeling a personal void. It became her crutch; something that she learned to do, subconsciously. Recently, I went home to the UK after a three-month stay with her. She felt a void. What was the first thing she did, literally within hours of me getting on the plane? Go online and talk to a guy. The rest of the week? Filled her time talking to various guys. Her safe place. What is the first thing someone who has always believed in and followed a monogamous path will do when they fall in love with a person who cannot meet this future goal? They will feel fear. Fear will cause upset. Upset leads to reverting back to our crutches - reverting back to what we know, to find comfort. For him, this is monogamy.

Seeing that and understanding that might help to soften your (understandable) feelings of frustration, confusion, hurt, anger and resentment. It is much more difficult to feel angry towards a person when you pick apart their motivations and see their fear. Seeing it helps you to feel compassion.

Now, he has come back to you. That means something. Yes, it could mean that he's been playing the field and you are the next best option, or something to fill the gap whilst he searches for monogamy. More likely, he is genuinely in love with you and whilst his head and his crutches are telling him to run, his heart keeps pulling him back.

There is an idea in poly that 'love is just love'. It works in whatever way it works. But... that only works... WHEN it works! (does that make sense?!) Yes, the two of you feel love. Yes, you could have a long-term relationship, with those feelings of love, where both of you are happy. But if you want one thing and he wants another... it's a love that is just love... not a love that works. To me, love that works (practical love) is the kind of love to pursue in life.

So, let's say he is monoamorous by nature. Let's say he is incapable of loving more than one person; or simply prefers to love only one. He is not strictly monogamous by nature, since he is happy to date you whilst you are married and also seeing other people.

The next step is to ask - "what do you want?" There may be a middle ground that he would be happy with. There might not be. If, in the long term, he wants marriage, children, one home, one love, then... unfortunately... as GG said... you are shopping in the wrong store.

(Anecdote #2!) A few years ago, I would never have thought I'd be happy in a relationship with someone who was married. I never entertained the idea - it just wasn't a thought. I was vehemently against cheating and thought monogamy was the only option available. Yet, I met a woman who was married and poly, fell in love, entered a V relationship... and can honestly say... yes, I'd be very happy in this relationship for the rest of my life, even though I previously only thought I'd be monogamous. I actually also sometimes consider myself monoamorous - I have felt different levels of love for more than one person at a time; but I am very happy with the thought of just loving one person and sometimes prefer it, regardless of my girlfriend's activities with others. So, I can relate to your boyfriend's feelings on that one.

So... have you asked him about that? What if he would actually be happy with some sort of V between himself, yourself and your husband? What if he would love that, but doesn't see it happening because you also have other relationships?

And what about you? What do you want? Do you want to be open poly, closed poly? Would you like him to be a serious boyfriend, even if that meant cutting out your other relationships?

If your relationship has been called FWB... he is surely only going to act in a way that fits that label - regardless of what he says about his emotions. I see it so often that 'we don't need to use labels' etc etc... but I don't see the problem with it. I think it actually helps to define appropriate behaviour and get needs met.

I don't think you should let your feelings lie - I think you should talk to him and see what he has to say."
 
So new development. I have a boyfriend! Whee! It feels so silly to say that. I haven't had a boyfriend since high school. Life is funny.

Whip and I have decided to recognize that yes, we were actually in a relationship. I didn't expect this to happen and neither did he.

We had talked about it some before and he mentioned the whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing. I was hesitant to use those terms as they imply in my mind committment and a more long term relationship. We talked again recently and made sure we were on the same page. So we are non-committed boyfriend and girlfriend. I've never tried something like this before. All of my relationships have always had at least the possiblity of long term. But he has to look for work all over the country - which I understand - and I think I am not quite ready for something serious and committed just yet. I was pleased we wanted the same thing - expectations that don't line up can be very hurtful.

So I'm a bit giddy. :)
 
Yay! Happy for you =)

I recently had a similar experience as i was growing closer and closer with someone ... all the while adamently avoiding the bf/gf terminology. When we paused to say, - well - we -are- in a sort of relationship even if we choose not to call it that; and both of us are very happy with this and want it to continue w/o labeling (as similar to you mostly I was hesistant as i was not ready to commit further) it was good that way.

.... except then a few weeks later he asked me to be his gf anyway and i said yes ;)
 
So I got sent into a tizzy recently by something that might or might not have happened.

My ex posted something on Valentine's day that made me wonder if she had fallen in love again. Then she called me same day for something work related and mentioend she had personal news to tell him. Hmmm. So I assume that she will tell me that she's fallen in love again.

I felt like a loser. And angry she brought this up on Valentine's Day! (Yes, irrational I know.) We're not in competition. I want her to be happy, to find someone who loves her. She deserves that. We are never getting back together to use that annoying song.

She didn't call back on Valentine's day but left a message Friday. I haven't called her back yet on purpose.

I texted a few friends with my ranting about this. They properly sympathized and rationally pointed out it may not be that she is in love at all. Might be something else entirely. All true. But that is not what my intuition tells me.

So had a bit of a freak out about it. I have many regrets about my marriage. Things I wish I had done differently. It's one of the few things in my life that I have regrets around. I generally try to live my life with as few regrets as possible. And now that I know what I know about how our relationship fell apart and my role in that (it's not all on me but I am fair from blameless, that's for sure), I know things not to do.

So it threw me for a loop. I haven't called her back yet. Maybe I will do that tonight but probably not. I am feeling better about it. Spending Valentine's Day with Whip really helped with that. And a generally awesome weekend helped too.

So I am better. But weird how things throw us for a loop sometimes.
 
Hi Opalescent,

I just read through your whole blog, and I wish I had seen it before--so much of it resonated with me.

I can understand your feelings about your ex's possible love. :(

But at least she wants to talk to you and tell you about it, right? You'll always be important to her life and she knows you care about her.

I'm more familiar with the kind of ex who believes that once the relationship is over, you don't exist anymore.

Hope other things are going well in your life.
 
MeeraReed,

Thanks for reminding me of something important. Beaker is still in my life and I am in hers. I value that and I want it to continue. And not everyone is lucky enough to get that. So thank you for the timely reminder of what is actually important!

And, yeah, my intuition totally failed me on this one. She was actually calling to tell me about some awesome job possibilities that may happen fairly soon.

So now I am thinking about why my mind automatically went there and why it freaked me out so.

Could it be, oh, projection?

The one good thing about my small scale freak out is that it made think about if I was ready for a new primary type relationship - or any relationship with some sort of commitment, however that looks like.

I am becoming more attached to Whip than I ever thought possible. To the point where the 'L-word' has come up for me. Could I be falling in love?

Maybe. The NRE is definitely there, even though we've been sexually involved for over a year. I do have reservations about a LTR with him. It is partly the age difference - not so much the years themselves but the stage of life thing. I am not sure if we have enough in common to make a long term thing work. And after the failure of my marriage, where one of the issues was our differences, I am really hesitant about this aspect. Also, he wants kids, in that mid-twenties 'I have plenty of time!' way. So that's an issue - although not an immediate one.

But, I am reallly enjoying getting to know him better. He's so fun! Even though we've been involved for a while, we didn't get to know each other much before as it was more a fuck buddy thing. I just enjoy being with him.

I intellectuallly understand that all relationships do not have to be committed or long term or what not to be relationships. However, this is a difficult concept for me to truly wrap my head around. The thought that a relationship will end, is not meant to be long term and that is ok is something I have difficulty imagining. And if I can't imagine something, I have great difficulty in understanding it, and making it happen in my life, if it is something I want.

Also, I am unsure if I am ready to be in any sort of serious-ish relationship. I keep finding landmines from my relationship with Beaker - like the recent freak out. I say landmines because I don't know they are there. There are things that I know about, that are issues to work on. It's the one's buried in my psyche that worry me. Yes, the freak out pushed me to think about some stuff more but maybe I should figure some of that out first.

Much to think about.
 
Triggered

I am all kinds of triggered by this blog http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43290

I thought about posting in the blog but realized that it probably wouldn't be productive for me or the OP. So I put it here.

Because of who I am, my past, I identified most readily with Si in that thread. She's going through a queer woman's nightmare. She put in 12 years with her partner, was apparently treated as a co-primary, (even as that turned out not to be what the husband or wife later wanted), developed a relationship with the children, developed a friendship and a brief relationship with the husband. And has lost all of it - partner, friendship and relationship with the children - in a month. And they are moving continents away.

Maybe she was a demanding pain in the ass. Maybe she shouldn't have assumed she was a co-primary. Maybe she shouldn't have been around so much or been better at picking up hidden subtle emotional cues. Maybe she should have gone to counseling with them. And they're not her kids although she has been around them their entire life. And there are opportunities for them elsewhere that do not involve her. Relationships do have a lifespan. Perhaps being dumped will be the best thing that has ever happened to her. She can find her own primary, have kids of her own if she wants. I hope that turns out to be true.

But really, having the husband turn on her so suddenly, have the wife go into guilt-ridden crisis, decide to end the long term relationship and be a monogamous wife. Maybe that is the best choice for all involved. I hope so.

But what I imagine Si feeling on being dumped is 'I love you but you are not good enough. You are not a man, we do not have kids together, I choose him and them over you and you can just suck it up and be happy for me in my new conventional life a continent away that cannot include you.' This is a queer woman's nightmare.

My heart breaks for Si. And in all the oddly toned comments on the thread about the breakup, 'Go you, follow your path. No labels, fuck yeah!', no one mentioned Si. This bothers me.

Yes, I am projecting. I am well aware of this.
 
Word. I totally agree, Opalescent. Seems like a lot of heterosexism and couple privilege in Si's girlfriend's behaviour and attitudes. "yeah, it was fun, but a relationship with a women isn't a 'real' relationship, and now that I have kids, I want to have all the mainstream approval associated with being a monogamous hetero wife and mother." Si should totally dump her sorry ass. Total queer women's nightmare, and why lots of lesbians and mostly lesbians won't date bi women (not including me, but I understand the basis for it). I read something good about couple's privilege recently, here it is: http://tacit.livejournal.com/578925.html
 
I am all kinds of triggered by this blog http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43290

I thought about posting in the blog but realized that it probably wouldn't be productive for me or the OP. So I put it here.

Because of who I am, my past, I identified most readily with Si in that thread. She's going through a queer woman's nightmare. She put in 12 years with her partner, was apparently treated as a co-primary, (even as that turned out not to be what the husband or wife later wanted), developed a relationship with the children, developed a friendship and a brief relationship with the husband. And has lost all of it - partner, friendship and relationship with the children - in a month. And they are moving continents away.

Maybe she was a demanding pain in the ass. Maybe she shouldn't have assumed she was a co-primary. Maybe she shouldn't have been around so much or been better at picking up hidden subtle emotional cues. Maybe she should have gone to counseling with them. And they're not her kids although she has been around them their entire life. And there are opportunities for them elsewhere that do not involve her. Relationships do have a lifespan. Perhaps being dumped will be the best thing that has ever happened to her. She can find her own primary, have kids of her own if she wants. I hope that turns out to be true.

But really, having the husband turn on her so suddenly, have the wife go into guilt-ridden crisis, decide to end the long term relationship and be a monogamous wife. Maybe that is the best choice for all involved. I hope so.

But what I imagine Si feeling on being dumped is 'I love you but you are not good enough. You are not a man, we do not have kids together, I choose him and them over you and you can just suck it up and be happy for me in my new conventional life a continent away that cannot include you.' This is a queer woman's nightmare.

My heart breaks for Si. And in all the oddly toned comments on the thread about the breakup, 'Go you, follow your path. No labels, fuck yeah!', no one mentioned Si. This bothers me.

Yes, I am projecting. I am well aware of this.

Yes, you are projecting. At no point did I ever say she was not good enough for me. At no point did I ever say she was not a man and not worthy enough to be in my presence or anything even in that realm. I never believed in labels. I can believe in God, but do I have to label myself as an Evangelist, Anglican, or any other religious form? No. Same thing. I can believe in poly, but I do not have to label myself. I practise it, lived it, and firmly believe in it.

You have no idea how I am dealing with this. I do not cry over people. This is a lesson for me. How many times have the words "move forward" been used on this website? Am I supposed to just stop and let my presumed sadness depress me to the point of losing weight, stressing out, or anything that is not healthy? Have I ever said that she should put a condom on and fuck her feelings? I am unaware that I did.

THIS bothers me. It implies that I never cared about her and used her as a means of fun. If that were true, then I have been using people since my teen years and all those relationships were meaningless. I guess I never loved them either. You can love someone with every drop of your soul, but sometimes you are not meant to be. I walked away to focus on my marriage. I was *this* close to losing it due to my selfish ass choices. I am not guilt-ridden. I realise how much pain has been caused because of ME. How is that supposed to make me feel? I sacrificed so much to be "me," and I nearly lost everything. That was humbling for me, and it made me feel like I have to change something and in a big way. I cannot just change my approach and my behaviour. That was not good enough because I am still human, and I may make the same mistakes again. Someone phrased it as self-inflicted punishment. No, it is something to bring me back down to earth and a lesson to value things and people and never take them for granted. Who did I take for granted? My family. It is not choosing one over the other or saying she is not good enough for me. It is saying I need to learn how to value ONE before I dare to value TWO at the same time. My attention has to be on one thing right now. I made mistakes. Tons of them. I messed up a thousand and one times. Maybe I should have stopped being so caught up in what I wanted and listened to someone else. Maybe will not change anything. It happened and this is the aftermath. Let it be a lesson that I will never forget.
 
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Word. I totally agree, Opalescent. Seems like a lot of heterosexism and couple privilege in Si's girlfriend's behaviour and attitudes. "yeah, it was fun, but a relationship with a women isn't a 'real' relationship, and now that I have kids, I want to have all the mainstream approval associated with being a monogamous hetero wife and mother." Si should totally dump her sorry ass. Total queer women's nightmare, and why lots of lesbians and mostly lesbians won't date bi women (not including me, but I understand the basis for it). I read something good about couple's privilege recently, here it is: http://tacit.livejournal.com/578925.html

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. There was no heterosexism and no privilege of any kind. It was a real relationship. My oldest child will be five in a few months, so obviously I felt no need for society's approval of a damn thing.

She should dump my sorry ass? Really? So I am sorry now? Judgemental to highest degree.
 
@FullofLove,

I don't think you are a bad person or that you didn't love Si. I think you are doing the best you can.

But I said what I wanted to say. And you can see why I didn't put in your blog.
 
@FullofLove,

I don't think you are a bad person or that you didn't love Si. I think you are doing the best you can.

But I said what I wanted to say. And you can see why I didn't put in your blog.

I respect your opinions for sure. I feel empathy for my ex. It was and still is a lot to handle. Could my timing have been better? That is up for debate. I saw how things were going, and it was getting worse by the day. I am doing the best that I can, and it is not being accepted by anyone. Even those closest to me have urged me to reconsider. I am now the bad person for ending a relationship that was no longer healthy for either person involved. I did not just wake up and say, "To hell with this, I am doing what I want to be accepted by society." If that were the case, I would have made this decision ages ago when members of my family turned against me and my own mother voiced her disappointment in me. It was a series of recent events that lead to my final decision. Would I have preferred a different outcome? Absolutely. Even in the wake of the poly aftermath, people are still getting hurt. That is a horrible feeling. This alone is why I struggle with...was poly/being true to myself ever actually worth it, and if so, what was the cost?
 
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