the story of a secondary

A note to start... this isn't about poly and I will absolutely not mind if anyone skips right on over it and starts reading again when I've gotten back to talking about the lovely folks in my signature line.

As I've gotten more comfortable on this blog and on this board, I've started to speak more specifically and more freely about my life. As anyone who's ever lived in any kind of closet can attest, it's hard to be honest and open in general if you're always holding back about some aspect of yourself. And besides, this is an anonymous forum on the internet... why should I censor myself?

So I've begun speaking here and there about D/s -- domination and submission. D/s means one partner giving control to another in some way, great or small, sexual or otherwise, short term or long term. D/s has been an important part of my internal landscape for a long time, and it has played a role in some of my relationships, though by no means all.

When I began mentioning D/s more here, I worried that some people might be confused or even disturbed, but I figured, hey, this is my blog, this is an anonymous message board, we're all adults who can accept relationship constructs that are outside of the mainstream (otherwise what would we be doing on a poly website), so, again, why hold back?

However, it's come to my attention on another thread that some people do, in fact, find at least some D/s practices confusing, disturbing, or even, "pathological" even if the partners are consenting, safe and respectful. Sad face.

So, I decided to write more about it here. I had a mental image that made me laugh of me leaving the other thread and saying "If anyone needs me I'll be on my blog" like a kid walking away in a huff and yelling that they'll be in their room. Heh.

So. Why D/s? Well.

When I was a young teenager I started secretly reading my mom's romance novels. I read a bunch, and in one in particular a woman is kidnapped and made a man's sexual slave before she's rescued by her handsome and daring lover. And I found I was really, really stuck on the whole "sexual slave" thing. I mean, I *was* a precocious kid, but this was middle school and there I was daydreaming in class about what I can now recognize as elaborate BDSM fantasies. Not exactly normal I guess, but then I've never seen "normal" as something to strive for.

I imagined, without the vocabulary to really describe it, that when I was grown up and had a partner, we would take turns. I would live for a year as his or her slave and then we'd switch and he or she would live for a year as my slave. Just to try it out, see which we liked best. It seemed simple and obvious to me then. It wasn't just a sex thing, though sex was included. Without ever having read about the BDSM lifestyle, or power exchange, or 24/7 D/s, I'd imagined it and I knew what I wanted.

As I grew older I drew back from these ideas. Sure, I knew I had kink in my heart, but I could and did vigorously enjoy vanilla sex and relationships, and I recognized, correctly, that my innocent dreams were a LOT more complicated and intense in real life than I had taken into account. So, I didn't really pursue it beyond occasional play in the bedroom.

Still, I read things... Anne Rice's Exit to Eden and her Sleeping Beauty Trilogy, for example. Both stories absolutely captivated me. And I found that I got a special sort of happiness when I saw queer love depicted in the media, when I saw poly love depicted, and when I saw D/s love depicted. I felt a special bond with those ideas, and a knowledge that, whether I chose a path that led me to them or not, they were part of my identity.

Then there was Gia. Ah, Gia. My story with her is chronicled here, of course. She, Eric and I did some kink stuff in the bedroom but not much, really... mostly we just had hot vanilla sex but with three people. But when we *did* do BDSM stuff, even just a little (tying up, holding down), I felt especially excited and drawn to her and connected to her.

Then, about a year into our relationship, we were all at a week long camping event. We were camped with some veeery kinky people, so kink was on my mind. And my roommates had recently made kink a bigger part of their marriage, so kink was, again, on my mind. And I found myself thinking about how much I wanted to call Gia "My Lady" and how much I wanted to serve her and do whatever she told me to do and just be owned by her. But I wasn't sure how or when to share those desires.

One night, we were all sitting around a campfire. Gia was sitting on a wooden bench and I had settled at her feet. I had some lotion with me and I was rubbing her feet and then kissing her feet and I felt so ecstatic and fulfilled and perfect. But then she pulled away and I didn't know whether it was because she was uncomfortable and didn't like what was happening or whether it was for some other reason. I got positively frantic inside. I couldn't take not knowing. I'd gone from extreme positive to extreme negative and it showed me just how much I craved that dynamic with her. It wasn't a foot fetish thing, it was the idea of service, of being below her, of giving myself over to taking care of her needs and letting her lead me as she saw fit.

At the next opportunity to get her alone I took her aside and we talked about it. I told her how much I wanted to sub to her and she told me she wanted to try her hand at domming with me but was a bit intimidated by the idea. I figured, no problem, we can go slow.

Then she got pregnant and, well, things changed. Slow became stop, and that was about a year ago now.

But let's back up.

I got so frustrated, about all of it. I came here to talk some of it out, and I also joined my friend JD on a trip to a bondage club. JD was a regular there, but I had never been to such a place and wasn't sure it was for me.

It was there I met Harry. We talked for a while, with others around, snacking in the non-dungeon area. I felt drawn to him, and like I could trust him, and I was curious, so... I asked if he wanted to try some of the interesting implements I'd seen on me. He said yes, and that was how I ended up being bound and publicly flogged, paddled and spanked (all by him) for the first time. It was intense, and not all of it was strictly pleasurable, but the pain made his hands gently brushing against my back feel *so* soothing afterwards. I was enraptured and, to his surprise, I ended up taking him to a private area and blowing him that night. Yum! :)

We ended up becoming friends after that and seeing each other regularly. He would dominate me and fuck me and I would rub his back then we would talk and get some food and watch a movie.

I wish you all could meet Harry. He's Canadian, and the sweetest, most straightforward and helpful guy you could meet. He's talented, competent, confident yet has vulnerability that he let's you see as you get closer to him. Since he was a kid, he's had visions of bound women with him in charge. He's in no way macho or controlling outside of D/s play. But he lives to help women discover and explore their wildest, darkest fantasies. He loves to create a safe space where they can give him control and he can take them on journeys. He seeks out intelligent, assertive, even dominant women who want to submit to him, and he sees "Master" as a part of his core identity. He tried to give it all up once for a woman he loved who wasn't into it. He lived without that part of himself, and without poly, in a mono, vanilla marriage for 3 years. Ultimately he was miserable and had to leave. This last year he's been coming back into himself and it's beautiful to see.

Harry and I never really got this far in practice, but we discussed the idea of taking D/s outside of the bedroom and then some. Me, say, polishing his shoes, him playing with me psychologically. Maybe for just a day he could put a collar and we'd go out together and he'd own me and I'd do whatever he said. Power exchange.

I was interested in finally, finally, trying out some of my long-held imaginings in real life, but I wasn't ready to go there with him, especially since I worried that I was exploring these things with him in no small part because what I really wanted and couldn't have was to explore them with Gia... like in a way it wasn't really about him and I'd be using him if I let us get in too deep.

Then I commited to Davis and stepped back from Harry and yadda yadda you know that story. (continued)
 
(continued)
Still... *why* D/s? Well, I don't know. Why sex, why love. It's a part of me. It's an urge, an urge that I can find answered in others who joyfully respond and give back the energy I give them. It is, to me, beautiful.

Maybe why is not quite the right question, as it doesn't seem likely to elicit anything that will help someone understand. What is the attraction for me of submission? Not kinky bedroom play, since that seems more obvious to many people, but the submission of my will to the will of another.

As Red Hot Chili Peppers says in their song Universally Speaking, "nothing better than love and service." And, for me, that couldn't be more true. I've been employed all my professional life in non-profit and government service, working on issues I care about. When I'm passionate about something I volunteer and try to spread the word. I am discriminating, it's not like I serve purely as an abstract ideal. Rather, I serve the things I love... the places, the ideas, and the people I love. One of those people I love is myself, and I strive to take good care of myself and serve my own needs. But I relish helping my friends and loved ones too.

I know that for others it's different, and maybe I will in time find other motivations myself for taking on D/s roles. But at least at this point in my life and at least regarding submission, for me it's all about service -- a natural extension of how I live in all areas of my life. I dream of serving someone I love. Not so much as a slave per se but as a highly devoted personal servant... sort of like a retainer, a handmaiden or a samurai.

In the right context, with the right person and enough trust and alignment of desires, I could envision making my dream of yore -- total power exchange as an experiment for a set duration of time -- a reality.

In the end, I can describe D/s but I don't know that I can "explain" it. I think that for those people to whom it makes no sense it will probably never really make sense. And that's ok. What I ask of the world is not understanding (although it's awesome when I find it!), but acceptance. You don't need to understand how a woman could love another woman romantically, you just have to accept that I do and that it doesn't make me wrong or bad or criminal. Similarly, no one needs to understand why I'm poly or why I'm kinky. As long as they can see that it's fulfilling me and my partners and not hurting us, then all I ask is to not be judged negatively for it.

Yes, it's hard to do right, yes it takes special rules to ensure everyone's health, safety and happiness, yes it's intense. Don't care, it's still awesome, it's still my choice, it's still "equal" (in that as much is received as is given), it's still sensitive to the needs of all involved, and it's still beautiful.

And that's it! My D/s manifesto.

Tl;dr version: Kink is awesome and I've liked it since forever and ain't nothin wrong with it.

Also, here's a great article on what you need to make a 24/7 D/s dynamic work:
http://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/10-principles-for-healthy-247-ds-and-ms/
 
Thank you for writing this. I enjoy BDSM in sexual context, but I haven't really understood it in 24/7. I've obviously always accepted it, since I rarely see my not understanding something as grounds for judging it. But your text makes me understand it a whole lot more. Actually, it makes me wonder, if I would like to try something like that outside of bedroom for a short period of time. :eek: You never know until you try, right, and after reading your post I can definitely see some of the draw of it. :)
 
That's so cool to hear, Rory. :)

Something from Franklin Veaux of xeromag.com (I am going to marry this man's writing style...), that covers the issue of respect and the issue of "what are the benefits":

"Respect for your lover is not just in behaving according to some ideal about the way "men are supposed to treat women" or whatever. Respect for your lover lies in exploring with your lover, creating with your lover, doing with your lover those things that you and your lover wish to do, sharing yourself on a very deep level with your lover... It's reflected in everything you say, do, express, feel, and think with your lover.

Different people want, need, and value different things. Respect recognizes those differences. And above all else, respect is an integral part of the mutual process of self-exploration and self discovery.

Now hold on a minute, kink-boy. We're talking about kinky S&M here, not Buddhism. What do you mean, "self exploration?"

Just that.

BDSM is a very broad term that encompasses many wildly different practices, and many wildly different beliefs. But central to all these things is the idea of challenging boundaries and testing limits--and that's precisely what self-exploration is all about.

You cannot know your limits if you never test them and never explore them. You may know some general things, but you can't truly know yourself if you have never explored and never experimented. As Francis Bacon wrote, Your true self can be known only by systematic experimentation, and controlled only by being known.

BDSM provides a context and a set of tools for exploring your own personal boundaries in a safe, fun, enjoyable, and mutually reciprocal way. It provides a vehicle by which you can get to know yourself and your lover much more deeply and intimately than you might have thought possible. And hey, you often find along the way that you can be surprised! You probably have turn-ons that you don't even know you have, and you will never discover without exploration.

And that, my friend, can truly enrich your life and the life of your lover.

When it comes right down to it, if your goal is self-knowledge and personal enlightenment, I put six months in a BDSM relationship up there with three years in a Tibetan monastery any day."

-- http://www.xeromag.com/fvbdsm.html
 
Thanks for the Sexgeek article, it was really helpful!
 
Little things.

I remember this very clearly, about a month ago. I mentioned to Gia and Eric that I have a spot of nirvana whenever I can sleep in a bit and then have my eggs and coffee in the morning before starting my day. As I said it, I saw what looked like a quick, wordless communication between their eyes. I thought it was cool that I'd caught it, like their glance was a little, innocent secret I'd overheard. And sure enough, the last two times (one of which was today) that I came to their place early in the morning, there were eggs and coffee warm and ready to be shared. This time it was a lovely omelette with cheese and ham.

Today, I gave G&E&B a ride to a festival where we spent the day together (Davis had originally been planning to go too but had to cancel, and my roommates were there but we didn't really see them). When I got there I realized I'd forgotten my ATM card and had no cash! Gia handed me the money in her pocket, so I was able to get all the cider and snacks I wanted. They shared their food with me throughout the day, and Eric gave me extra cash to get more coffee at the end of the day.

Gia gave me two small presents today -- stuff she'd picked up while out shopping for other things, I think. They suited me well and made me smile. :)

I love to do things to get Bee to laugh and smile. He likes it when I stick out my tongue at him. I can change him quickly and I can calm him down just about as well as Gia and Eric can. They seem to trust me with him completely at this point.

When we got back from the festival I was sleepy, and I laid down on G&E's bed while they cooked and hung out with our friend Dan who was visiting. I fell asleep and woke back up when Gia came into the room to grab something. She told me to rest and that she'd wake me when food was ready.

Gia and I kissed today, warmly and repeatedly, on four occasions, three of which were in public. Two of the public ones were when we were parting ways, even if only briefly. The one in private was when I was leaving their house for the night. And the other one in public was at the festival, when she held up a decorative bridle to me and said, playfully, "now you can't get away" (as if she was going to put it on me). Um, sexy!! I didn't quite lunge at her but I moved to her without thinking and kissed her and she kissed me back and she was smiling. :)

I hugged Eric goodbye tonight and kissed the back of his neck and ruffled his hair. These sorts of gestures from me to him used to stand out to me, even scare me, but now it's just a regular thing. He hugs me back and he touches me here and there at other times when we're all together, puts a reassuring hand on my arm, squeezes my shoulder, brushes my back, in ways I don't think he did so casually before.

It's just been such a wonderful day.

All that agonizing I did a while back about "family", wondering whether or not I should talk to them about the concept. And now, I feel like family is happening on its own, in small increments and slight shifts, realignments and relaxings.

Love them, love them.
 
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I've been thinking of putting up photos of Gia, Bee, and Davis above my computer at work. Ha ha, I am a crazy rebel. :)

Before anyone asks, I thought about putting up a photo of Eric too and decided that until I know my feelings are reciprocated, either on the love thing or the family thing or both, it would just make me feel weird, like I was crossing a line.
 
In bed, listening to Ben Folds, drinking red wine and eating little circles of dark chocolate. Feeling quiet, still, sad.

Davis and I have had some really solid times together recently. Good conversations, good sex. I like best those chaste and sweet times when we're falling asleep or just waking up. We wrap around each other, hold each other. Safe. I feel wholly and unreservedly comfortable with him. He knows me, he trusts me, I know him, I trust him. Completely. He's solid and warm and dear to me. He's my best friend.

But too often, when we're hanging out other times, I find myself asking uncomfortable questions of myself and not having any good answers. I feel bored or annoyed with him, I feel like I could be making better use of my time, I wonder what the hell I'm doing.

Like, for instance, I'll ask him how his day was... he's in between contracts at work, so he has all day free... and he'll say he was bored. And I just boggle at that. Life is so big and exciting and there's never enough time to do even a part of all I want to do. And he's bored. How can he be bored? Do I really want to be partnered with someone so boring that he can't figure out how not to be bored when he has all the time in the world to play with, to grow in?

I talked to him about it all, just a little bit, the other day... about feeling uneasy, about not being sure if I wanted to move in together. He said he understood, but that he thought he would need some commitment and stability in the next 6 to 12 months. We left things up in the air, but I don't think he knows I'm so unsure about our relationship itself and I haven't figured out if I can/should tell him yet.

I told Gia today, over instant message, that I was having these doubts about my relationship with Davis. She said that she could see he and I working together, and that she wants me to "have a full-time partner" for her "own selfish reasons" (she's fretted about neglecting me before), but that she'd like to hear more about my worries. Hopefully we'll have time in the next couple of days... I think talking to her will help.

I want Davis as my best friend and my lover. I'd be happy to have him here with me now to hold and be held as we fall asleep. I just think less and less that I want him him to be my life partner. And I think it's going to come down to all or nothing. The thought leaves me feeling washed out and toneless. I wish it all just fit and worked the way it seems like it should.
 
Safe. I feel wholly and unreservedly comfortable with him. He knows me, he trusts me, I know him, I trust him. Completely. He's solid and warm and dear to me. He's my best friend.

Is there passion in the mix? I think one of the greatest things about having dear friends is that you can have totally committed, loving, sometimes even sexual relationships that lack the couple's dynamic. There's less of the whole OMG-where are we going-what will our relationship look like in ten years-is this what I want-do I really have what it takes-are we compatible in the long run-is somebody feeling neglected-are everyone's needs met-blahblahblaa in solid friendships, I think. Many good friendships, even loving ones, would be totally ruined if you force them into a couply mold.

He said he understood, but that he thought he would need some commitment and stability in the next 6 to 12 months.

This actually worries more than any passing feelings of boredom and annoyance. Just that I don't think you should make any lasting commitments unless your hand with Gia is played through, and you see what sort of form your relationship with her will take post-Bee. I'm worried that otherwise Davis will take more of a role of a consolation price (at least that's how Gia seems to see him).

...she wants me to "have a full-time partner" for her "own selfish reasons" (she's fretted about neglecting me before)...

I just think less and less that I want him him to be my life partner. And I think it's going to come down to all or nothing.

Wouldn't that be better for everyone included? If Davis is mono, he will be wanting a life-partner of his own that really puts him on top of their list. Keeping him hanging on as it were might be giving all the wrong signals, and he would be left hoping that eventually you come around and are willing to take the final step and seal the deal.

Or I could be totally of the mark and you just need to give it time.
 
Oh, seeing BU's post just reminded me that I'd wanted to respond to your thread when you added your last message. Sorry...

. . . he's in between contracts at work, so he has all day free... and he'll say he was bored. And I just boggle at that. Life is so big and exciting and there's never enough time to do even a part of all I want to do. And he's bored. How can he be bored?

I don't know, I think you can cut him some slack here. For someone who is always busy, a long span of time with nothing planned can seem overwhelming. And if he's not a "smell the roses" type of guy who can wing it comfortably, I can see how a free day seems boring. He probably just doesn't know how to be okay with doing nothing, or being spontaneous.

I talked to him about it all, just a little bit, the other day... about feeling uneasy, about not being sure if I wanted to move in together. He said he understood, but that he thought he would need some commitment and stability in the next 6 to 12 months . . . I want Davis as my best friend and my lover.
Why can't you just tell him that? Your statement is definitive about what you want and how you want it to be. There can certainly be a commitment to that. And it certainly can be stable as "best friends and lovers." Since he's able to be patient and not demand some kind of answer for six months to a year, I don't think you really need to fret about it. However, it's probably helpful to note that there is an element of unease or dissatisfaction with the situation -- or having to define it. Perhaps you sense (or imagine?) some pressure coming from him about this, and maybe it's more gratifying to you to just have it BE what it is rather than have a defined role, and that's what's bothering you. In any event, there is good, rich, informative stuff here to look at as you move forward.

I just think less and less that I want him him to be my life partner.
There is nothing wrong with that. When you rekindled things with him, was there any promise or even implication that it was supposed to head toward life partnership?
 
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Is there passion in the mix? ... Many good friendships, even loving ones, would be totally ruined if you force them into a couply mold.

Hmm. Passion. Yes and no. We have strong physical chemistry, my body seems to know and recognize him -- I get wet very quickly when things start to get sexual between us, we fit together well and have good orgasms together. We're, at the same time, rough and tender.

But I'm not always 100% engaged mentally. The very idea of him doesn't get me all chilled and thrilled like it's been with some other lovers, y'know? I'd say it was just because of our long history together, but it was actually never quite there with him, that encompassing excitement.

You have some good points about loving friendships... food for thought. I just don't think a lower level of involvement/commitment is going to work for us here, he's been so into me for so long and he's longing for stability right now. If I truly can't give that to him than I probably just need to step away and allow him space to move on.

I don't think you should make any lasting commitments unless your hand with Gia is played through, and you see what sort of form your relationship with her will take post-Bee.

I think the thing that makes that idea hard, for both Gia and me, is that she definitely can't commit to me more deeply right now (and who knows, we may well never get to that point), and she has a full-time life partner in Eric. So the idea of me putting the rest of my romantic life on hold indefinitely while I wait and see, it just seems a little too unbalanced.

I see what you're saying, and it's tempting... but if I *do* stay with Davis then I owe it to him and myself to let it progress naturally and not to miss opportunities because I'm holding my breath waiting to see what someone else might at some point be ready to offer me.

Then again, six months post baby might not be too much to ask... this does seem, in some ways, like the exact wrong time for this, with so much up in the air. On the other hand, if things were smooth between me and Davis then his support and presence during this crazy time might be just the rock I'd need. *sigh*

Wouldn't that be better for everyone included? If Davis is mono, he will be wanting a life-partner of his own that really puts him on top of their list.
...
Or I could be totally of the mark and you just need to give it time.

I'm trying to figure out how I'd prioritize Davis and Gia in my life if I stay with Davis. Could he ever really be the most important thing to me when Gia and Bee are so incalculably precious to me?

I don't know, I don't know. :/ Balancing the logistics, the tide-like pulls, of various partners seems less complicated when I'm giving advice to others, heh. In my own life, I'm baffled. But yeah, I think you might be right about what Davis will want/need versus what I can give.

Or it could be the time thing. :p
 

Aww, no need to apologize, certainly! :) Every person's time and thoughtful input here is a gift.

I don't know, I think you can cut him some slack here. For someone who is always busy, a long span of time with nothing planned can seem overwhelming.

That's well put, thank you. I should remember that just because his reaction is different than mine, that doesn't make it some kind of character flaw.

"I want Davis as my best friend and my lover."

Why can't you just tell him that? Your statement is definitive about what you want and how you want it to be. There can certainly be a commitment to that. And it certainly can be stable as "best friends and lovers." Since he's able to be patient and not demand some kind of answer for six months to a year, I don't think you really need to fret about it. However, it's probably helpful to note that there is an element of unease or dissatisfaction with the situation -- or having to define it. Perhaps you sense (or imagine?) some pressure coming from him about this, and maybe it's more gratifying to you to just have it BE what it is rather than have a defined role, and that's what's bothering you.

Again, all really well put. I think you're on the money here. You can see above in my response to BU my concern that it's not possible to get what I'm feeling like I want here (love, friendship, no commitment). I could just leave things be, I know that, but it's hard not to try to think it all through and work it out...

I talked all of this through with Gia earlier tonight (more on that later) and I think I'm finally getting to the point where I'm ready to say more of this to Davis directly. I've been afraid to let it all out and potentially mess things up between us when maybe I'm just overblowing things. But he deserves to know what's going on in my head and to not be blindsided if I do decide to leave.

When you rekindled things with him, was there any promise or even implication that it was supposed to head toward life partnership?

Yes, we re-entered this relationship with the understanding that the goal was to move towards building a life together. Assuming everything went well, which is in no way a given right now, the idea was that we'd move in together in May when my lease with my roommates is up.
 
I just don't think a lower level of involvement/commitment is going to work for us here, he's been so into me for so long and he's longing for stability right now. If I truly can't give that to him than I probably just need to step away and allow him space to move on.
Well, rather than “step away,” you could express what you want and see if he’ll “step up.”

I also think you need to get clear on what he means by “stability.” Does that mean you will have to be monogamous with him? Or committed to a pre-defined number of days per month with him? Working to support a household with him? Stability isn’t about the outward physical trappings. It’s about a steadfastness of feeling and dedication, I think, just as much. I am thinking of this guy I know. He’s an activist, and a performer, a husband who co-parents, and sheesh, he’s got quite a number of partners and “sweeties,” as he calls them. I don’t even know how many! His career as a singer and his activism has him traveling all over the country and yet, I have never had the sense that his home life is unstable, especially given the pride he takes in being a co-parent. He once met me for a drink and called his wife while we were out. I could tell that what they have is stability, because of his commitment to his relationship with her – it had nothing to do with how many other things he had going on. Of course, I’m sure managing his time and travel is an important aspect, and he does what he has to in order to take care of his home life, but believe me his plate is full. It is probably helpful that his wife is poly, too, but still – what does stability mean to you and Davis? Can’t you have everything you want and be stable, too?

Then again, six months post baby might not be too much to ask... this does seem, in some ways, like the exact wrong time for this, with so much up in the air. On the other hand, if things were smooth between me and Davis then his support and presence during this crazy time might be just the rock I'd need. *sigh*
He’s already told you he’s willing to wait even a year before you give him any kind of commitment, right? So relax, darlin’!

I'm trying to figure out how I'd prioritize Davis and Gia in my life if I stay with Davis. Could he ever really be the most important thing to me when Gia and Bee are so incalculably precious to me?
I would say they can all be at the top of your priorities, just handled differently.

. . . my concern that it's not possible to get what I'm feeling like I want here (love, friendship, no commitment). I could just leave things be, I know that, but it's hard not to try to think it all through and work it out...
Look how long and patiently you waited (and are still waiting) to express your feelings to Eric, and how much time you gave to letting things with you, him, and Gia just simmer and become this gloriously delicious and nourishing soup. You know you have the patience, and the ability to sit through discomfort and not knowing how things will turn out. The difference here is that, with Gia and Eric, YOU wanted an answer. With Davis, HE wants the answer. I still wonder if psychically you are feeling too much pressure from him to fulfill a role, and that’s what has you befuddled.

Yes, we re-entered this relationship with the understanding that the goal was to move towards building a life together.
Does that mean, specifically, to give up everyone else you hold equally dear? In other words, “to forsake all others” as they say in typical mono marriage vows? If so, that does seem rather unfair and cruel to you. Is he unable to budge at all? Hasn't he already come a long way in understanding that you need/want/desire the other people in your life, or do you think it would be too much of a battle?
 
I also think you need to get clear on what he means by “stability.” Does that mean you will have to be monogamous with him? Or committed to a pre-defined number of days per month with him? Working to support a household with him?
...
What does stability mean to you and Davis? Can’t you have everything you want and be stable, too?

He's not asking monogamy of me. When we decided to date again, he assured me that he respects my relationship with Gia and didn't seek to limit it in any way, now or in the future.

We also agreed to wait at least 3 months before talking about me re-engaging with the casual partners I'd been seeing, and at least 6 months before talking about me initiating any new potential intimate relationships. The idea was not necessarily that we'd move forward with those things at those spots in the timeline, just that we'd wait at least that long to open up the conversation, moving at his level of comfort, with the promise that he would work at being more comfortable.

So, yeah, just to be very clear, there's no monogamy requirement, just some built in time for him to get used to the idea of me being with people other than Gia and Eric.

[For the record, yes, according to the "timeline" he and I could be talking now about me hooking up with Harry again. I haven't brought it up to him, though, because the whole point of giving it time was really to allow our relationship to find a good, comfortable rhythm and a sense of (that word again!) stability, and I don't feel like we're there yet. Also, while I missed Harry a lot at first, right now I've just got other stuff on my mind.]

He himself, however, is quite inclined to be monogamous -- he's tried to be interested in other women in the 4 years since we split up, but he couldn't ever really feel it. So, if we stay together I will very likely be his one and only partner. I don't know about numbers of days per month, but I would certainly need to be able to build a household with him and spend a significant amount of time with him in order to meet his needs as his sole partner.

So, I think that's what stability means in this context -- that we've set in place a firm foundation for a future we could share together... starting with, most likely getting a place together, blending finances, maybe making some long-term plans.

You've got a point though that it couldn't hurt to clarify this with him.

He’s already told you he’s willing to wait even a year before you give him any kind of commitment, right? So relax, darlin’!

Haha, good point. :)

I would say they can all be at the top of your priorities, just handled differently.

Yeah, that's a good way to think about it.

...letting things with you, him, and Gia just simmer and become this gloriously delicious and nourishing soup.

Wow, love this analogy!

The difference here is that, with Gia and Eric, YOU wanted an answer. With Davis, HE wants the answer.

Excellent point... it's funny for me to realize how much more comfortable I seem to be with the former versus the latter.
 
^Reading your last sentence it sounds like we're a lot like in that respect. I have a hard time with people expecting things of me, while I'm quite flexible with what I need from others. I'm working on the first part, though, in making boundaries I feel comfortable with. Maybe the distressing part for you here is not so much that he may want/need more than you feel you can give, but that you don't know what it is you want..?

He himself, however, is quite inclined to be monogamous -- he's tried to be interested in other women in the 4 years since we split up, but he couldn't ever really feel it. So, if we stay together I will very likely be his one and only partner. I don't know about numbers of days per month, but I would certainly need to be able to build a household with him and spend a significant amount of time with him in order to meet his needs as his sole partner.

So, I think that's what stability means in this context -- that we've set in place a firm foundation for a future we could share together... starting with, most likely getting a place together, blending finances, maybe making some long-term plans.
I think it's quite relevant for these considerations to know more specifically what his needs are. What are you comfortable with? What are your needs? What are you able, and willing, to commit to? Other than wondering if you want this kind of a relationship with him, are the above things you'd like to have with somebody or some people?

I'll disagree a bit with BlackUnicorn about waiting until you see how things settle with Gia, since no relationship is really ever in an end-point, where you can definitely say how big a part you'll play in each others life in the future. Things change, always.. However, it might be good to consider (and discuss with him) the place of Gia and Eric, as well as possible future partners, in your life. What is it that will make you both happy; how much of a part of your life is he happy with other people being? It's not just a question of what he (and you) can live with, but also what both of you want from life.

Just some thoughts. :)
 
Maybe the distressing part for you here is not so much that he may want/need more than you feel you can give, but that you don't know what it is you want..?

Totally. :/

I think it's quite relevant for these considerations to know more specifically what his needs are.
...
it might be good to consider (and discuss with him) the place of Gia and Eric, as well as possible future partners, in your life. What is it that will make you both happy; how much of a part of your life is he happy with other people being?

Yeah, I am thinking I need to have a big talk with him about this stuff this week, and that I need to talk a little more with Gia as well...
 
A friend of ours held an early Halloween party Saturday night. Gia had come up with an adorable group costume idea for her, Eric and Bee, and she'd invited me to join them on it.

I left work early on Friday and went to her place so we could work on our costumes and talk. I poured out all my concerns about my relationship with Davis, everything I've said here and more, and she listened as we sewed.

She pinpointed Davis's recurring depression as something that might be causing a lot of issues between us. Eric has seasonal affective disorder, and it used to be that when he got depressed each winter she felt like he was someone else, not necessarily someone she wanted to be with. For a while, she made it a condition of their relationship that he start and continue therapy. He's since developed some coping strategies and it's easier for both of them now. She suggested that I consider insisting that Davis get help if we are to continue to be together.

She also had a lot of other helpful little things to say, but mostly it was just good to get all of my worries out. Saying everything out loud made me feel like I could talk to Davis about it all too. Gia said that she sees a lot worth in my connection with Davis and that she hopes we can work it out -- but I know she'll support me either way.

I came back to her place Saturday morning and we spent all day finishing our costumes and juggling Bee while Eric and his brother worked on the house. It was a very pleasant, productive day for everyone. Bee sometimes stops fussing when I sing, so I spent a lot of the day singing.

As we were getting ready to leave the house, I noticed a copy of The Five Love Languages. I recognized it from people mentioning it here and asked if I could borrow it. Gia said yes, and mentioned that she'd borrowed it from Liza for the purpose of understanding me better (I rely heavily on touch as a way to convey and accept affection, she doesn't). I took it as a very positive sign that in the midst of everything going on in her life, she's actively thinking about how better to relate to me.

At the party, everyone got what we were going for and I think we all looked awesome (especially Bee, of course... babies in costumes!!!). The whole costume thing made me really happy -- it felt good to be included, to have Gia's help in making it happen (she's miles better at sewing than I am), and to present ourselves as a group to all our mutual friends.
 
Gia had come up with an adorable group costume idea for her, Eric and Bee . . . At the party, everyone got what we were going for and I think we all looked awesome (especially Bee, of course... babies in costumes!!!).

Okay, okay, I call Time Out on discussing relationship stuff here because I MUST hear more about those costumes! Details, please! :D
 
I'm working hard on untangling my desires for my future with Gia/Eric from my desires for my future with Davis.

One example -- living arrangements. Could I ever live with G&E&B? We're not there in our relationship(s) yet and there would be some major logistical issues, so it's not worth seriously considering right now -- I wouldn't accept if they offered, mainly because A) I think it would really be rushing it and B) they live in the county and I love life in the city. But, maybe, some day, it could make sense. And, in my hazy daydreams at least, it could be so beautiful.

However, if I'm living with Davis and building a household with him, it would probably be a lot harder to fit that life into a life where I'd live with G&E&B. Does that knowledge affect my willingness to consider living with him?

I know that it shouldn't. The future is a big question mark, for all of us. I can't put my life on hold because of something that could maybe some day happen. Like, let's look at a different question -- could Gia and Eric and I ever be a closed, equilateral, polyfi triad? Er, sure, could happen in a possible future. But we're nowhere near that point now, so I sure as hell haven't let that stop me from taking other partners both casual and (now with Davis) serious.

The future, man. How the hell am I supposed to figure out what I want it to look like?? And how the hell am I supposed to move forward if I have no idea what I want my future to look like??

I know, let it go for now, I know... urgh, I'm just *so* bad at leaving things be. I'm going to at least talk a little to each of my partners soon about this question.
 
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