At the Base of the Tower of Babel

MonoVCPHG

New member
I've come to a very recent acceptance that there are two languages at play all around me. I see this here and at the monthly Poly meetings I attend and even in my discussions with Redpepper. There is essentially two languages being spoken when the mono world meets the poly world. Words that have immediate and understandable meanings to one world are different for the other.

This is an interesting dilemma as we attempt to move poly into the mainstream so that it in effect becomes mainstream.

There will inevitably be long drawn out debates about what a single word means. People will be passionate on both sides. Reclamation will face off against tradition. Societal norms will be questioned and challenged while others will be judged and marginalized.

This is a fascinating time to be a part of the expanding poly world as it spreads in openness and understanding. Hopefully both sides will be able to communicate to the point where there is no longer the presence of "both sides" and all is left is acceptance.

There are already warriors in play on both sides in the media, in public forums and in person. And me?...Talk about a torn soldier!
 
I've come to a very recent acceptance that there are two languages at play all around me. I see this here and at the monthly Poly meetings I attend and even in my discussions with Redpepper. There is essentially two languages being spoken when the mono world meets the poly world. Words that have immediate and understandable meanings to one world are different for the other.


I think the idea of a mono world and a poly world is a bit misplaced. Mono people and poly people live in the same world. I also don't see a huge difference in the language.

Can you give me some examples where the differences in language fall along a mono/poly divide?
 
I think the idea of a mono world and a poly world is a bit misplaced. Mono people and poly people live in the same world. I also don't see a huge difference in the language.

Can you give me some examples where the differences in language fall along a mono/poly divide?

Sure..here's some of the usual:

Fidelity
Commitment
Faithfulness
Insecurity
Polygamy

These are key words that are emotionally/mainstream defined by many monogamous people. They are also emotionally/literally defined by many poly people.

Even though the same words are used, they are internally defined very differently. It would be great if we could see passed our internal definitions and stick to the dictionary definitions but that is extremely hard at times.

Great direction to take this Ceoli! I hope others join in but we focus on how to bridge the gaps instead of spinning our heals trying to define words yet again. Let's look for solutions instead of problems!

Thanks Ceoli..you're insightful challenges promote growth and constructive developments of our ideas. I've learned a lot from you :)
 
Yeah, one big argument I had with my wife was the definition of "cheating." She said that swinging was cheating. I could not understand how she could see that and she could not understand how I could see it as not cheating.

So for awhile, we talked two different languages. It was frustrating. She was not placing a specific bad judgement on swinging. But after awhile, she did see that someone in an open marriage can lie to their partner and "really cheat." So we went for awhile when my "cheating" meant "really cheat" to her. Now, i think we have settled more on the poly view of this term.

I think in a sense, a lot of the poly vs mono arguments will go this way because polyamory group has put a lot of effort into thinking about such concepts whereas the monoculture just inherited the words. For example, in mono culture, jealousy is treated at the symptom level where the insecurity itself is treated in the poly community. There are some mono people who buy polyamory books just for concepts like this.

But there may be some mono/poly concepts/words that are no so clear cut like "marriage". And there is a lot of word definitions in the poly community that still have not been sorted out. I think the important thing is to talk about definitions with your partners. Get that clear first.

Oh, and another tough word to define is "sex." I think people need to clarify what they mean when they use it in a relationship. Once you hear, "We didn't have sex; I just gave him a blowjob" and then you are already dealing with an issue that could have been avoided.
 
Sure..here's some of the usual:

Fidelity
Commitment
Faithfulness
Insecurity
Polygamy

These are key words that are emotionally/mainstream defined by many monogamous people. They are also emotionally/literally defined by many poly people.

Even though the same words are used, they are internally defined very differently. It would be great if we could see passed our internal definitions and stick to the dictionary definitions but that is extremely hard at times.

These definitions are all from Dictionary.com:

Commitment:
1. the act of committing.
2. the state of being committed.
3. the act of committing, pledging, or engaging oneself.
4. a pledge or promise; obligation: We have made a commitment to pay our bills on time.
5. engagement; involvement: They have a sincere commitment to religion.


Fidelity:
1. strict observance of promises, duties, etc.: a servant's fidelity.
2. loyalty: fidelity to one's country.
3. conjugal faithfulness.
4. adherence to fact or detail.
5. accuracy; exactness: The speech was transcribed with great fidelity.
6. Audio, Video. the degree of accuracy with which sound or images are recorded or reproduced.

Faithfulness:
1. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.
2. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
3. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
4. reliable, trusted, or believed.
5. adhering or true to fact, a standard, or an original; accurate: a faithful account; a faithful copy.
6. Obsolete. full of faith; believing.

Insecurity:
1. lack of confidence or assurance; self-doubt: He is plagued by insecurity.
2. the quality or state of being insecure; instability: the insecurity of her financial position.
3. something insecure: the many insecurities of life.


Polygamy:
1. the practice or condition of having more than one spouse, esp. wife, at one time. Compare bigamy (def. 1), monogamy (def. 1).
2. Zoology. the habit or system of mating with more than one individual, either simultaneously or successively.




How does the poly or mono definition deviate from the dictionary definition?
 
Here's another one.....

Hi Mono,
Amazing you tossed this out now. I was thinking of starting a thread myself yesterday along similar lines - but not quite. It's below.
I think most (?) of us would agree with what Ce's dictionary research points to - that there isn't really any difference - and least "I" don't see much Never did.

But now here's one I'd like to add to your list...........

It's "LOVE" !

Hmmmmmmmmm what's that ? It's at the root of the whole discussion.

When I say to you "I love you" - what do I mean ?
And....what do YOU think I mean ?

GS
 
It's "LOVE" !

Hmmmmmmmmm what's that ? It's at the root of the whole discussion.

When I say to you "I love you" - what do I mean ?
And....what do YOU think I mean ?

GS


That's awesome GS! Hard to believe I missed that one! Hmm..I'll have to think about that and give it the answer it deserves when I get more time...Thanks!
 
If you take two poly people together and ask them to define what love means to them, you are just as likely to get two different answers as if you were to ask a mono person and a poly person together.

If you take two mono people and asked them to define what love means to them, you are just as likely to get two different answers as if you were to ask a poly person and a mono person together.

This seems more like a people issue than a mono/poly issue.
 
If you take two poly people together and ask them to define what love means to them, you are just as likely to get two different answers as if you were to ask a mono person and a poly person together.

If you take two mono people and asked them to define what love means to them, you are just as likely to get two different answers as if you were to ask a poly person and a mono person together.

This seems more like a people issue than a mono/poly issue.
I am not so sure. I think poly people will more likely give some kine of Heinlein quote or to say it in a more generic fashion. I am pretty sure that poly people are more likely to be more gay friendly and would word the statemnt of love in a more gender neutral manner.

I think mono people will mention loving one special person and be more likely to be heterosexual oriented definition.

I also think that "mono" group is being used in two ways. One is a person beought up in a monogamous culture and one is a person who feels monogamous upon internal introspection.

A lot of this sounds very analogous to the human races. The average difference between any two races is greater than the difference between any two members of any race.
 
I am not so sure. I think poly people will more likely give some kine of Heinlein quote or to say it in a more generic fashion. I am pretty sure that poly people are more likely to be more gay friendly and would word the statemnt of love in a more gender neutral manner.

I think mono people will mention loving one special person and be more likely to be heterosexual oriented definition.

Honestly, I can't say that's ever been my personal experience.
 
I've had conversations with friends and others about defining what love is, inside and outside workshop settings. My experience among my mono friends is that it's rarely qualified as loving one special person exclusively. That usually only comes up if there's a comparison somewhere in the conversation between monogamy and polyamory. And if it was qualified that way, my answer to that would be "Great, that tells me *how* you love. Now let's talk about *what* that love is."

The same thing among my poly friends. I can't say I've ever heard a person define love itself in terms of having to love more than one person. The same differentiation is there. That talks about how, not what.

(plus, I've never read Heinlein and can't say I'm a huge fan or run among crowds that are huge fans)
 
For me, I am more likely to hear about "soul mate" or "being completed" in my monogamous friends than in my poly friends. They are more likely to separate how you love from what love is.

I read a few Heinlein books. They are interesting in how they break through many social norms. However, I usually don't get pulled too deeply into his stories. The Heinlein quote that I do hear is "Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own." It doesn't quite reflect my view, but I like the concept of it.
 
(plus, I've never read Heinlein and can't say I'm a huge fan or run among crowds that are huge fans)

Heinlein is over-rated IMO and I think some people refer to his work and quote him because it's easier than thinking for themselves.

Now it's my turn to duck and run for cover because I know there are a lot of folks on here who think Heinlein is the Prophet of Polyamory, and I'm prob'ly gonna catch a fair amount of grief for saying that, but I'll deal :p
 
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Love

For me, I am more likely to hear about "soul mate" or "being completed" in my monogamous friends than in my poly friends. They are more likely to separate how you love from what love is.

I read a few Heinlein books. They are interesting in how they break through many social norms. However, I usually don't get pulled too deeply into his stories. The Heinlein quote that I do hear is "Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own." It doesn't quite reflect my view, but I like the concept of it.

Hi Quath,
I read some Heinlein a long time ago (like Jr High era) and maybe I saw something in there that made sense to me at the time. Maybe even the quote you use above.
And I think that quote has a lot of wisdom in it and may reflect the reality of "love" for a lot of people. I'm even going to carry it one step further into dangerous territory by saying " the happiness/well being of another comes to supersede our own". In most truly "loving" situations I've seen or been involved in, the reality of "sacrifice" (for someone else) has been a consistent action in the "expression" of love.
It's a dangerous thread (and if the group wants we should move it to one) as it can't help but dissolve into a debate about when TOO MUCH sacrifice is needed or involved, and how that can unavoidably (?) change the whole dynamic and end up with more bad than good.

Nothing is ever simple and black & white it seems.........
 
I think Heinlein's major influence is that he presented the ideas out there in a workable fashion for the general public in his books. So I kind of agree with you, YGirl. But I do appreciate that he got the ideas out into our society.

GroundedSpirit, there does seem to be some debate on how much sacrificial feelings one should have for another. On one level, it seems romantic and full of feeling. On the other hand, it may also reveal a lack of self worth. But I agree that things are rarely as black and white as they seem...
 
I've come to a very recent acceptance that there are two languages at play all around me. I see this here and at the monthly Poly meetings I attend and even in my discussions with Redpepper. There is essentially two languages being spoken when the mono world meets the poly world. Words that have immediate and understandable meanings to one world are different for the other.

Don't know if it's strictly a mono/poly difference, but I definately concur that there is a HUGE discrepency in what people MEAN when they speak, and what people HEAR when someone has spoken.

All the words you listed, and LOVE are HUGE ones in our MARRIAGE! Heck-"marriage" was one of those words.

We struggle with that issue ALL THE TIME.

I gotta run, deal with some personal issues (AGAIN) but I'll check back and try to catch up on a forum gone wild in 3 days.
 
Pardon me for necroing an older thread, but I think this is a very interesting discussion.

I don't think there is so much a difference in the definitions of the various words mentioned here so much as understanding what those mean in terms of actions.

"Cheating" is the obvious one that springs to my mind, but "love" and "commitment" are two others.

The concept of commitment to most monogamous people that I have spoken to implies committing to one person completely. To a poly person it means something different.

When the poly community itself can't agree on common definitions and applications of language, then we can't really expect that to be done when communicating with non-poly people. The more I have read about the discussions pro and con coming up with some sort of common definitions for terms, the more it feels like The Tower of Babel (and one or two who fancy themselves as Nimrods).

If there are no ambitions to get so-called mainstream society to become more accepting of some sort of poly lifestyle, then I think we can carry on as we are - in a state of flux and chaos. But most emerging sub-cultures have in the past come up with a coherent language that they use to communicate within the sub-culture and then to the wider world. I would postulate that this has pretty much been a pre-requisite for emergence and stability.

We are a long way from that, I fear, and not getting much closer.
 
When the poly community itself can't agree on common definitions and applications of language, then we can't really expect that to be done when communicating with non-poly people. The more I have read about the discussions pro and con coming up with some sort of common definitions for terms, the more it feels like The Tower of Babel (and one or two who fancy themselves as Nimrods).

......

We are a long way from that, I fear, and not getting much closer.

:) I concur again.
 
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