Re-start after potential metamour talks smack...

10/3 sneakiness, lying, total relationship fail

Wow.. Just wow.

We had drama all weekend, with Maca deciding he wasn't going to deal with her anymore unless/until she made plans to deal with the issues with all three of us and go over the boundaries-then contacting her (behind my back) back and forth and back and forth.

Sunday we went over the secrecy and lying and how unacceptable that is. Better to tell me he changed his mind (even if it is every hour) than to lie and sneak around behind my back.

Monday after work, we were sitting on the couch together. He got a phone call-he didn't recognize the number, so he read it off to me. I didn't recognize it as one I knew offhand (and said so) but I did recognize it as a local land-line number. I was online, so I typed it into the search engine. But, my internet was slow. He answered before it found the business-a local florist.

I heard the conversation. Part way through he took the call outside allegedly to get an address for the caller.

When he came in again, I asked him what that was all about. He made up a story about it being his co-worker, a very detailed and complicated line of BULLSHIT.
I replied with, "so he was calling from the business he was at?"
He said no, he was calling from his cell.
I pointed out that no, that was a local landline-not a cell.

Meanwhile, as he elaborated on his lie-in great depth, I typed out a fairly quick email, to him, stating that I know darnwell his co-worker doesn't work at the local florist and asking-why are you lying to me.

I was so upset, I couldn't talk. He noticed my hands were shaking and I stood up, nearly dropping my cell. I was so astounded at the audacity of the lie and the deliberateness of it and the great depth he went to, to convince me of it. I was speechless.
He asked me if I was ok. I said, "No. No I'm not. I can't talk. I emailed you."
Then I went to the bathroom and sitting on the toilet burst into shocked tears.

After I calmed down some, I went to our room and lay in the bed trying to reason through WTF had just happened, before I confronted him.
But, I knew he'd been up for over 24 hours at that point and was exhausted-not the best time for such a serious conversation.

I decided to go pick up homework from a friend and let myself cool off-waiting til morning to confront the topic.

I came upstairs and let him know. He had read the email and was devastated. He wrote me back an "omg how could you ever forgive me" email while I was gone.

But-at 3am, he woke up (medicated unbeknownst to me) and flew off the handle. We had a HELL of a fight. He basically blamed it all on me. Told me I always have to have everything my way, that I force him to live life my way and I don't care about what anyone wants but myself (things she has suggested based on BULLSHIT he's told her). He threw it in my face that I have GG and he is "alone" (even though I NEVER EVER make plans with GG if Maca is available) and accused me of not allowing him to have someone else (again-NOT TRUE).

Anyway-I was devastated.
About 6am he apologized and said he didn't know what he was thinking blah blah blah and wanting me to tell him what to do to fix it.

That continued to flip flop through Tuesday with him alternately wanting to cuddle and make love ( I refused) and then being pissed off that I was "being a bitch" and blaming me for everything and then being apologetic for everything again and wanting me to tell him what to do to fix things, what I wanted etc only to fly off the handle when I told him no-this was his mess and it was his job to figure out what HE wanted and what HE needed to do with it.

By Tuesday night I was such a mess, I had to walk away and ended up sleeping on the couch.

This morning at 6am he woke me on the couch being sweet, told me he would be back to pack his things after work.
I didn't reply immediately and he asked me what I was thinking. I said, "you need to do what you need to do."
He got pissed and sat down and said, "well you won't TELL ME what you want me to do."
Then he stormed out of the house in a fury.

I texted him that no, I can't TELL HIM what I want him to do-because that results in him later saying I MADE him do what I wanted-and he needs to decide what he NEEDS TO DO.
He was pissy and went off about how he doesn't know what to do and I'm making it more difficult.

At 6:45 I called him and asked him how he expects me to answer "what do I do" without telling him what to do. He was all mellow and apologetic and told me there wans't any way (or reason) I could answer that. That he needs to figure it out for himself, that he was being unreasonable and that he can't even remember what HAPPENED the night before because he took 5 prescription pain pills (normal dose is 1/2 a pill) "hoping I wouldn't ever wake up".

WTF?!?!?!?!??!

This afternoon his boss and friend sent him home sick from work (sick as a dog coughing and hacking). He's been passed out on the couch sick for the last 5 hours.

I'm devastated.
I'm pissed.
I'm astounded.

I don't even know what to SAY.
I could try to get him put in the hospital-but they won't admit him unless he's willing-(have some experience as my parents work in that field up here).
He won't go willing-so that is a waste of energy on my part.

WTF.

(that's mostly rhetorical)

When he came home-he asked me if he could have a few days to get well before dealing with anything. So... I'm sitting here.
I can't argue that trying to deal with stuff when he's so ill is unreasonable.
At the same time-HOLY FUCK!

Avoidy, flip/flop behavior in desperation, inappropriate "coping" behaviors/suicide attempt? (he denies it now), her continued dis-interest in DOING anything to resolve this issue which is growing exponentially.
 
10/8-his focus remains on her and I needing to get along

Maca and I talked some last night.
Things remain unresolved with the other girl.
She is struggling to accept that the reason for the boundaries we have aren't "just to protect LR" but in fact those boundaries were created to protect Maca and that as the CURRENT boundaries stand-they are what WE BOTH want for our dynamic.

He reiterated his need for her to sit down with both of us and go over things. She wanted to know what I wanted to talk to her about (as if it remains just ME).
He told her we need to discuss the boundaries, time constraints, expectations.
Her response was that it is all "too complicated".
I am disgusted with her response and attitude and I am disgusted and resentful over his continuing to prioritize finding a solution with her-whilst he's destroying everything between us.

"too complicated"

While I understand that there are people who like the freedom of being able to come and go as they please-and I respect that FOR THEM-

I find it INCREASINGLY irritating that people can't fathom that this is UNREALISTIC in my life.

I pointed out to Maca last night-in response to this comment from the other girl-

Even as a single man after his divorce:

He had a time limit, becuase he had a 2 year old at home and was a single dad. He DID NOT HAVE TO TELL the people he dated that was WHY his time was limited-
but it didn't change the fact THAT his time was limited.

He didn't have to tell that his $$ was limited-but it remained limited.

There WERE boundaries in his life-even as a single man-and while people he dated didn't necessarily have to be told WHY any given boundary existed-they did run into those boundaries.

So it's NOT "more complicated" that we have boundaries now.
We had them when we were single.
We have them now as married's.

We will ALWAYS have them-even if we divorce.

What may change is the specifics of those boundaries and/or the reasons for them.

The truth is that asking to be able to STATE what our limits are for what we can offer someone is actually a KINDNESS and a sign of respect for THEM.

The other option, is what he and she have done for the last year; which is to NOT state those limits clearly, so that she continuously finds herself hurt and upset AND hurting and upsetting him and/or I and/or GG and/or the kids
BECAUSE SHE HAS NO CLUE WHERE THE BOUNDARIES ARE and so she inadvertently steps on them.
Ouch. How disrespectful to ask someone to play a game with you and then not tell them the rules until after they break them! Talk about setting them up for failure.

Her ideology that it is "too complicated" could be restated as
"I prefer to find out the hard way what the rules of the game are."
or
"I enjoy the pain and misery I suffer and I cause by continuously breaking rules I have no intention of learning about."

I find this... disturbing.
 
So, has he moved out again or are you still dealing with this bullshit under your own roof? You said a little while ago that he was coming back from work to pack up his belongings. Is that a thing, or was it just talk?

The fact is, reading your installments usually gives me a headache, but i find it irresistible like a soap-opera where it leaves the viewer hanging on a Friday and has to see one more episode just to see what happens next, only to get sucked in to the next story-line. If I did not know better, I'd think you were writing a novel instead of a biography. It is very much like a novel, except one where the reader gets to interact with the author as the story is being written.

I do wonder how much longer you intend to put up with this. Indefinitely?

That is all, for now.
 
10/8 non-negotiable,

The ultimatum has been dropped by me-as of last night when the discussion happened.
I laid it out as

this is non-negotiable.

I compared it to BDSM.
There is no room for play until negotiations of soft and hard limits has been established AND AGREED TO.

These boundaries are the soft/hard limits of our polydynamic. No agreement to them-no play. PERIOD.

He is devastated.
But-he understands BDSM negotiation well and agreed that it did make sense.

He also clearly grasped that the "it's too complicated" crap was CRAP after I gave the examples regarding the fact that EVERYONE has boundaries and limits-even singles and monos.
MOST don't state them and thus end up ruining relationships with unnecessary toe stomping-but the boundaries and limits exist none-the-less.

Everyone has time constraints, everyone has financial limitations, everyone has safer sex limitations (even if their limit is a free for all-that is their limit), etc.

Asking that someone be AWARE of ours before playing on our game board isn't "too complicated" it's actually respectful and considerate of THEM. I elaborated here:

http://aafteota.wordpress.com/2012/1...-by-the-rules/
Ironically-where things stand, I am still stuck.
I have no way of knowing if they are in contact, unless he tells me (or I go searching which I don't have time, energy or interest in doing).
But-trusting him is out too-because he's proven himself untrustworthy and nothing significant has happened to prove otherwise in the week since.

In point of fact-they were continuing to talk yesterday and there has been no forward progress.

I am now at the point of believing that in order for OUR relationship and OUR family to heal from the insanity of HIS out of control wishy-washy behavior, triggered by his desperation to cling to her-
she needs to be OUT OF THE PICTURE ALL TOGETHER.

He needs to look at himself and see that the emotional toll "chasing her" is taking on him is damaging him AND HIS WHOLE LIFE-including work, physical health, emotional health, mental stability and his family.
 
10/8-what needed to be addressed with her specifically

With her in particular
because of the history (they broke boundaries and she got all bent out of shape over my not being enough of a "hostess" while she was here);
She claims to want to spend time with the whole family

I said that I needed her to understand that
A) as "just friends" (which is what they supposedly are) kissing and sex are off limits.
[they were making out in our kitchen in front of our guests and children]

B)I am not a hostess. I'm not going to be but it's not a personal slight against HER-I don't do those things for ANYONE.

C)if she wants to participate in our family she can't continue talking smack about me [that is addressed in this thread:http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28151]

Really-that's it.

HE may have other things HE wants to address with her. All I wanted was for her to understand that talking smack about me isn't going to be acceptable if she wants our families to socialize together, I'm not going to cater to her personally while she's in my home, her definition of friends [which she stated to me specifically] is fine for OTHER friends of hers, but kissing and making out isn't something we do with friends.

She has no idea how simple it could be. Because she's afraid to even chance having a conversation with me.

I really don't see any of it being functionally possible at this point. Nor do I see either of them making the effort to do the self-inventory and take personal responsibility for the damage they are individually causing themselves and the rest of us to make it feasible to go anywhere with being friends. Thus-I think it would be pointless to go over any of this with her NOW.
 
the letter I had sent her the last week of September.

After 7 months of "avoidy"-in response to his increased frustration over wanting to have her participate in family functions, which he claims was based upon her continued requests to; I wrote the following email. I had to send it to him-because I don't have contact info for her. He forwarded it to her after reading it. At that point he felt it was fine. AFTER she read it, she flipped out and then he decided I was being unreasonable.



"I'm going to try to cut to the chase and keep this short and succinct.
That's not my forte-so if there is anything that you need me to
elaborate on-feel free to ask.

I asked you to stop contacting me for one very specific reason. I
found it offensive and overstepping your bounds to suggest to me that
the "real" Maca is the person you understood Maca to be versus who I
understand him to be.

I don't hate you. Nor do I believe you are a bad person, a trouble
maker, etc.I do think it would be a good idea going forward, for you
to understand that the two of you have stepped on my toes. Earning
trust takes time and effort. Earning trust after having caused someone
harm requires more time and effort. I am not a vindictive or possessive
person. However, I do have very high standards and expectations
regarding who I open up and offer my own friendship to.

I am hurt by derogatory things you said about me. I understand that
you based your statements on what you knew from the things Maca said.
That means a large part of the responsibility lays on his shoulders,
for considering what he says, what he does not say and how the
combination affects people's perceptions of who he's talking about.
However, they were still untrue assessments of who I am as a person
and it hurts me to have such things said of me.

I believe that many of the issues which arose between Maca and I at
the time you two started meeting in person have been dealt with in a
manner that should alleviate further conflict. I think he and I are
fairly clear between one another about what our expectations are with
each other regarding other friends and lovers.

I don't have any idea if you are clear on what my expectations are
regarding how I expect to be treated by Maca friends/lovers. There
seems to be two schools of thought on the topic. One is that it is his
responsibility to ensure that you are. The other is that I need to
clearly communicate my expectations to you.
I tend to be of the second school of thought. Maca tends towards the
first. As this is his attempt at building an outside friendship with
potential for more, I am willing to go with his tendencies unless
asked by you or him to clarify."

As noted-she took the letter as offensive and they had a falling out of drama over it-which resulted in him coming back to me and laying the blame on me-again.
 
how my metamour/friends expectations relate to her

Regarding the paragraph regarding her not knowing how I expect to be treated by metamours/friends etc:

respect our boundaries
communicate directly to me on issues regarding me
treat my children with kindness and respect
never talk bad about myself, Chris or Mark in front of our children
respect my personal space
treat me kindly
not talk negatively about me behind my back
consider the consequences of their actions upon me
consider the consequences of their actions on Mark & I’s relationship
consider the consequences of their words upon me
consider the consequences of their words upon Mark & I’s relationship
consider the consequences of their actions on Chris
consider the consequences of their actions on our children
consider the consequences of their words on Chris
consider the consequences of their words on our children
NOT discipline my children
NOT undermine my, Chris’s or Mark’s authority with our children
NOT attempt to get in the middle of any of my other relationships
NOT attempt to undermine any of my other relationships
NOT treat me or my relationships with disdain
Be understanding of the time restraints we have for socializing

It seems obvious to me-I wouldn't normally write it out in a list like that. But-I did, in order to clarify for myself what it was that was pissing me off with the way she treated me.

To clarify-I end relationships with people who mistreat my SO's. I have terminated contact with my father and stepmother and with several close friends.
This has been a very non-negotiable agreement for Maca, GG and I for the duration of our relationships.
We have no contact with Maca's mother and GG's parents either. Because they tried to play favorite's games with our children.

So, to me-this isn't something that needs to be clearly spelled out in this format-in choosing who I socialize with, I choose people who meet the expectations. If they fail to-they get a one time warning.

In this case, she has already stomped on my toes in this arena, so this WOULD BE her warning.
But, she doesn't want the warning.
Which is fine-
in my book-if you don't want it -GO AWAY.

But, you aren't going to be coming closer to me otherwise.

**I never told Maca he couldn't retain a relationship with her. I simply refuse to have anything to do with her or to allow our children to have anything to do with her as long as she refuses to address these issues**

(that has since changed. I have now told him she is a NO GO and NO CONTACT until such time as she contacts me to sit down and talk. But-I have no way of knowing if he sticks to that.)
 
We need to look at our precious 24 hours and decide what makes us feel good, productive and empowered. Toss out the guilt, obligation and need to please-itis. Keep standing strong, you are worth it!
 
So, has he moved out again or are you still dealing with this bullshit under your own roof? You said a little while ago that he was coming back from work to pack up his belongings. Is that a thing, or was it just talk?

The fact is, reading your installments usually gives me a headache, but i find it irresistible like a soap-opera where it leaves the viewer hanging on a Friday and has to see one more episode just to see what happens next, only to get sucked in to the next story-line. If I did not know better, I'd think you were writing a novel instead of a biography. It is very much like a novel, except one where the reader gets to interact with the author as the story is being written.

I do wonder how much longer you intend to put up with this. Indefinitely?

That is all, for now.

Boring-can I quote that in my personal blog (about the soap opera novel)?
He is still living there. He came back with the 'I promised I wouldn't walk out again'.
I don't know how people can keep reading it. I find it exhausting. I have considered leaving. There's a lot I could say on that, but not yet. I'm in school after 15 years as a sahm. We'll see.
 
Boring-can I quote that in my personal blog (about the soap opera novel)?
He is still living there. He came back with the 'I promised I wouldn't walk out again'.
I don't know how people can keep reading it. I find it exhausting. I have considered leaving. There's a lot I could say on that, but not yet. I'm in school after 15 years as a sahm. We'll see.

You can quote whatever you want; once something is posted on this forum, it becomes everyone's. I must admit, what I said about soap operas is not very original; I think I heard it somewhere else. But by all means go ahead and please do.

I know you don't want to break up with your husband because you love him and you have kids together, but to me it seems as though he is more like one of the kids than a co-parent TO them. And that is taking away your parenting energy FROM the kids.

I know you're trying to do the right thing, and it is easier said than done. I don't understand how people can go through life purposely making themselves sick and miserable when the recipe for making things better is spelled out before them and all they need to do is walk the path. Of course I don't know your husband, and he hasn't kept his side of the story current, but you don't come on here acting like you don't accept your part of the responsibility for where you're at. It's extremely difficult to wrap my mind around it, but it does appear like you're doing everything in your power to make it better and he is just not on-board with that.

Let's start a drinking game: whenever I say the word "but", everyone has to take a drink.
 
Didn't Maca post on your blog thread once before? Would it be possible for us to hear his side again?
 
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Yes Boring. I agree mote later.

I will tell Maca his two cents would be appreciated. But, I can't promise he will. He doesn't frequent the board because it doesn't interest him.
 
End of 25 year olds saga. Ateast in regards to our life.

She replied today to my message. Sent it to him to forward. It offended him beyond wanting anything to do with her.

I read the first 4 lines and was offended enough to know I better stop before I flooded emotionally. I deleted and emptied my trash folder.

The basics (that I read) was that I was defending the way I treated Maca (in the letter I sent her which is copied on a previous page) and there was no excuse for how I treated him.
Even he admitted that in all honesty, I didn't do anything to him. I reacted to his lying and boundary breaking. I admit, I did have such a severe emotional breakdown after repeated boundary breaking over a two month period, that I nearly ended up hospitalized in February. But, there's no question that I wasn't randomly freaking out. He admitted even the. That he was doing it-apologized and then it happened again-etc.

So, anyway, the options for 'recovery' with that person are out. Done deal.

Niw-to rebuilding trust.
 
Good for you, glad to hear that particular blemish is no longer in your life. Cheers for moving forward with the ones you love!
 
Thanks Glitter. I'm still reeling over the arrogance she displayed for having only seen either of us maybe 10 times total and never for more than a cpl hours. As if she could possibly have any clue about our relationship having only talked to him.
Feeling emotionally flooded and hurt. But, relieved to be done with one mess.
 
People look at things through their own filters, and often with their own agendas. Often it has no reflection on your reality.

Hard as it may be to do - moving on is best.
 
Moving on is MUCH better for me.
Maca is struggling. His feelings are hurt, he misses her and feels like poly is a hopeless and one-sided venture (that he will 'never' find anyone else).

I don't know what to say. So I try not to. As a woman, I see his methodology for finding a woman and am turned off. But-trying to explain that just pisses him off.
 
My ex would make 'tiny violin' sounds when I was particularly self-pitying. She would do finger violin motions too. Actually worked - ticked me off and pulled me out of my 'woe is me!' rut. Then I would start laughing. Of course, this does not work if it isn't thought to be funny by the one being mocked.
 
Opal, that made me giggle.
That's something GG and I would do to one another freely. :)

Maca's not really talking to me about it.
I inquired about his mood once-he answered me honestly and I let it go at that.

I am much less angry after the email he sent her and I both.* included below* Still working on rebuilding trust from the lying. But, I feel like he at least figured out what it was that royally set me off.
He's been much more forthright about his thoughts, feelings, desires etc since everything blew up. Hopefully, that will be a permanent change.
I know he has commented on the fact that he feels better this way and that he's noticed things go smoother when he's being honest and upfront.

He's even admitted that he thinks he really wants more of a casual sex situation with others-which I've known-but he's refused to admit-because he knows I don't want that.
We've agreed that when it comes time to renegotiate our boundaries we will discuss that.
In the meantime-it's not on the table until then as we agreed to limit boundary changes to specific timeframes on account of me finding it overly upsetting when he wanted to change things for a new relationship or when a new relationship ended and always to his benefit and GG and I's loss.
ANYWAY!
Her out of the picture has been a relief-not only for me, but for GG and the kids too.

I've had some time to think about WTF the issues are.

There are a lot of issues that have lead to the demise of our relationship. For starters, I should have never spoken badly about my wife, not to you or to anyone else. We all have our issues and I KNOW that she has spent YEARS dealing with mine. I had no right to say the things that I said to you and frankly its not something that you should do to someone that you love and is such an important part of your life.
I should have put my foot down the very first time that you spoke badly of her. I shouldn't have let you believe that it was ok for you or anyone else to talk shit about her to me or to anyone else. I fucked that up royally. By my actions and words I gave you a incorrect view of LR and the relationship that her and I have. That was unfair to you and it was fucked up and cruel to LR.

Reading and rereading your response to LRs email to you, I don't see any attempts to resolve the conflicts or even an interest on your part to discuss the issues. I've waited a long time for you to find the "right time to talk". But it hasn't happened and I don't think its ever going to. I told you before that I come as a "package deal". Which means that if you don't mesh with my family, all of them, especially my wife, then there is no deal. Its not like I'm saying that you two need to be best friends but there has to be respect and loyalty to my wife and the rest of my family. Any outside relationship that I have (or she has) has to promote and benefit my love for my wife and family. Just like the guy that said XXX was a asshole. You can not continue with a relationship with someone that speaks that way about your loves. And honestly, even if it was true, he had no right to say that to you or anyone that's in your social group. Opinions are fine but talking shit isn't.

" Seems like your trying to validate the way you treat Maca,which nothing you say can do that." WTF is that? You attack her? She doesn't deserve that. And then to top it off you add "which nothing you say can do that". Its like you were telling her that there is no way that she is good enough for me. If you KNEW the years of history and crap that we have been through, then you would KNOW that its ME that doesn't deserve HER. You said " I know how things are and I am always aware that their are two sides to a story. Not to mention I really haven't known your husband that long so I was in no position to make any judgments ". But you did make a judgment. And you did not try to get her side of the story. Even after I told you that we needed to all 3 sit down and talk, and that LR had agreed to a sit down talk, you didn't want to deal with her. That's not acceptable, not if you want to be a part of our lives.

I know that you wanted to be a great friend to me, I know that you wanted to be helpful, I know that you had reservations about wives of a potential lover. I know that I mislead you and filled your head with all the one sided "bad things" that are happening to me. I don't know how to reverse time, if I did, I would have done it already. I would have changed a lot of things.

We BOTH owe LR an apology. Me, for talking trash about her, for disrespecting her role in my life, for allowing you to do the same thing, for not standing up for her, for getting caught up in NRE and distancing myself AND for not promoting a relationship between you two, for lying to her and for making excuses for why it wasn't a "good time" to get this shit dealt with.

If you can not see that my words in this email are true, and if you still feel the way that you did in your response to her email,and if you don't see where you owe her an apology as well, then I can not continue any type of a relationship with you. I will not continue this way. I really don't know how else to put it. One of my "issues" is trying to sugar coat everything. I told you that we would always be friends. I didn't want to "HURT" you, after you had told me that you were having the worst two months of your life and that you were losing friends and relationships. But the fact of it is, I can't have a friendship with someone that only sees the bad in my wife and isn't willing to say "you know what? There has to be something I'm missing" and then puts in a effort to find out what it is that they are missing.

I apologize to you and your family for the way everything happened.
I apologize to LR for the way everything happened.

Maca
 
so that's the end

I can completely relate to your story, as it *almost* sounds like the other end of what happened to me
 
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