"The Christian Marriage"

When I broke up with my boyfriend, it was because I had fallen for his best friend, who is Catholic. He is surprisingly semi-ok with the possibility of sharing me, while my agnostic-ish ex is not... I can't help but wonder if somewhere along the line he'd feel like he wasn't being as good of a christian as he could be because of the implications of poly.
My lover is Catholic and pretty devoted to his faith. He told me he has just accepted that he's a sinner and he can't fight that, so that's how he seems to reconcile with his own sex life. I guess he feels like he's imperfect, so to enjoy his sinning while he can and not worry about it until it's time to meet his maker. That's how I interpreted what he said to me, but I will have to ask him more about that.
 
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I think that's probably why he's not too worried about it. He understands that the Bible was written by prejudiced men, and not everything that's written is accurate, or meant to be followed.

I'm glad he's wise enough to realize this :).

It just worries me, because even though I'm not a believer myself, I understand that his faith is important to him and a part of his happiness. I certainly don't want him to feel like being with me would distance him from God. But, I suppose, that's something he'll have to figure out on his own.

If he's wise enough to realize that not everything in the bible should be followed, I think he has a good chance of coming to the conclusion that your arrangement with him is fine by God. I define God as everything; I'm not exactly sure as to what "everything" entails, but I can't believe that God wouldn't want us to share everything with those we love (and sex is definitely part of everything :)).
 
Not sure if this is really the correct place to post this since the topic at hand doesn't strictly have to do with polyamory, but it is about spirituality so I didn't know where else to put it!

I see a lot of people comment on having been in and taught the "Christian Marriage" and it being a major hurdle to their journey to poly. I was raised Southern Baptist. My grandpa was a pastor. I still consider myself a Christian, although in a different sense (the Christ-like sense, not the religious sense).

What I am curious about is why Christian husbands tend to get a bad reputation for being repressive and completely controlling. My family and the churches I have gone to have acknowledged that the husband is the head of the household and ultimate decision making is up to them and used various Biblical references to back it up and whatnot, BUT they have always also focused on passages such as I Peter 3:7 that tells husbands to treat their wives with understanding.

NONE of the devoutly Christian men I know would EVER do something to blatantly hurt their wives (i.e. expect them to completely stop being their own person after marriage, expect that a second wife would be acceptable without the first one agreeing, etc.). Am I just completely naive in thinking that the Bible as a whole teaches us to be loving and respectful of everyone regardless of gender, marital status, sexuality, or any other qualifier?

No, the Bible as a whole doesn't teach love and respect for everyone. There are parts of it that teach that it's a good idea and what God wants. The Bible writers were human, though, and what they wrote was their idea of what God wants.

I'm a guy. I think stories never stop about men being bullies, simply because we are larger and stronger than women, usually, and we have testosterone. A man can't say anything agressive or confident anymore, or the stories start. Or another male starts feeling all responsible and bullies the "bully." The fact is everybody assumes about men, but no one understands men really.
 
Illusions of 'Christianity' and false manifestations

So, first - to be clear - I'm an ordained Christian Minister....

I've enjoyed reading all the entries, and I'm always amazed by conversations regarding all things 'Biblical'. What seems to be missing is context...so let me offer some.

The Bible has two parts...The Old, and the New Testimonies. If one seeks the true mantle of 'Christian', then one should embrace the New, the 'Good News', of the New Testimony.

Religions are designed to control a societies behaviors, thoughts, and wealth. Part of my Ministry is to make people aware of the Evils of Religion, and how clearly they do Satan's work. Christ's path through the pages of the Bible focused on this Evil over and over again...He was the worst Jewish Rabbi ever....look at all the rules he broke while teaching us the righteous path to Glory back to God.

If others give their free agency over to Religion, then cast dark stones of judgement, oppression, and hatred then let them. Christ, and the true followers of Christ, embrace all people with love. I do not judge, I embrace. I do not create laws against the free will of others, (Mormons take note), I support the manifestations produced from the choices your Souls make in our world. From my faith in Christ do I understand the nature of the love he gave us all....No religion gives that to us....NO RELIGION

The Bible is a book, and within you'll find the path of Godly Righteousness. You will also read how men continue to control others, even now, for the illusions of being better than others... History could use a Biblical rewrite...
 
Religions are designed to control a societies behaviors, thoughts, and wealth. Part of my Ministry is to make people aware of the Evils of Religion, and how clearly they do Satan's work. Christ's path through the pages of the Bible focused on this Evil over and over again...He was the worst Jewish Rabbi ever....look at all the rules he broke while teaching us the righteous path to Glory back to God.

If others give their free agency over to Religion, then cast dark stones of judgement, oppression, and hatred then let them. Christ, and the true followers of Christ, embrace all people with love. I do not judge, I embrace. I do not create laws against the free will of others, (Mormons take note), I support the manifestations produced from the choices your Souls make in our world. From my faith in Christ do I understand the nature of the love he gave us all....No religion gives that to us....NO RELIGION

The Bible is a book, and within you'll find the path of Godly Righteousness. You will also read how men continue to control others, even now, for the illusions of being better than others... History could use a Biblical rewrite...
Well, I've spent a lot of years dealing seriously with the Christian religion, and agree with a lot of what you say. After so much pursuit there is one problem (of many) that boils to the surface. Christianity and the Bible seem to be about the individual. For example, one reads the Bible by oneself. Also, however one relates to God and the Holy Spirit, it is usually one-on-One.

The problem is people are social, we are defined by the company we keep, and we find solace and happiness there. Christianity will never help people as long as it keeps trying to get us alone. But the approach is wrong. The assumption is that we are all alike, we are like each other. We never are, never have been, never will be. But we keep being surprised about that.
 
Thats the point of our Physical Plane

You touched on the underlying environmental essence of our layer of the Multiverse. Again, to be clear...I am an Ordained Christian Minister, but I am also Vitki to the Oracle of the Runes.
It is true we are all different. We all have a singular footing on the spiritual path that we all still walk along. But it is also true that we all share an interconnectedness as spiritual beings. Setting aside 'Religion', through all of human history every society has a natural understanding of our spiritual essence...not by accident. It's the expected outcome of our spiritual nature. We all share that spiritual essence.
It is also true that here in the physical plane we are animal. We are mammals, in truth, and are subject to the traits developed in our DNA. One of these is the herding instinct we love to follow to creative ends....We follow! ...Sports, political ideologies, Music groups, Cultural beliefs, Family behaviors, Sexual behaviors, Nation against Nation, Skin color against Skin....and Religion. We herd to where our emotional bodies find the most joy.
As human 'beings' we are both...and isn't it beautiful? We are all scattered in this human mess...alone and together. Singular but also the same. What a wickedly perfect Universal design for us to explore each others essence.
Back to Christ for a thought or two...Our savior drank wine...and when the casks were dry he turned water into more wine. He served others through the intimate act of washing their feet. How many of you have washed the feet of a loved one? We find it easy to sit in our Churches...one a blue flag, and the other a red...and we imagine together we're cannibalizing our Savior's flesh and drinking his blood like vampires...but the intimate stuff, even in His examples we can't get to.
Enough preaching...with one last question. Is it sin to enjoy your lovers orgasms at the touch of another while all there find joy and togetherness, or is it sin to judge that shared joy and togetherness from an outside perspective intentionally being detached from that same joy and togetherness?...
 
I didn't read all the other posts, just the original one, so here's my take:

I have been married to a charismatic Christian man for the last seven years. Though he let his license lapse, he is still an ordained minister of the Full Gospel persuasion.

We live a very egalitarian lifestyle, but if there is a decision to be made he gets the ultimate say. I agreed to that before we married, btw, and I agreed because I can be somewhat flighty when it comes to having to make a serious decision. It is better for us that he be the decision maker in those instances. Now, if I can give him compelling, logical reasons why we shouldn't do something we don't do it. He relies on me for my discernment.

Bear takes his vow to "cherish" me /very/ seriously. Cherish meaning to "continuously pursue the mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being of another".

That said, I had a really horrible experience with my first husband many, many moons ago (we've been divorced since '96). He reconnected with an old friend that belonged to a particular "leg" of Amway that considered themselves to be Christian. Every last one of those men counseled him that he basically had to get me under this thumb. Under their tutelage he decided that he needed to control every aspect of me--what I wore, where I shopped, what I read, what I watched, what I listened to, what my hobbies were, who I was friends with, how much I saw my family---EVERYTHING.

There is a reason why he's my EX husband, kwim?

So while there are those men who are Christians, who live by trying to reach the example that Jesus set of always acting out of love, there are those that see the teachings of Paul as license to be Lord and Master of their little domains. THEY are the reason that all Christian men get painted with the repressive/controlling brush. Thankfully, not all of them are like that. If they were I would not have married Bear..

Just my .02, hope it helps.
 
I didn't read all the other posts, just the original one, so here's my take:

I have been married to a charismatic Christian man for the last seven years. Though he let his license lapse, he is still an ordained minister of the Full Gospel persuasion.

We live a very egalitarian lifestyle, but if there is a decision to be made he gets the ultimate say. I agreed to that before we married, btw, and I agreed because I can be somewhat flighty when it comes to having to make a serious decision. It is better for us that he be the decision maker in those instances. Now, if I can give him compelling, logical reasons why we shouldn't do something we don't do it. He relies on me for my discernment.

Bear takes his vow to "cherish" me /very/ seriously. Cherish meaning to "continuously pursue the mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being of another".

That said, I had a really horrible experience with my first husband many, many moons ago (we've been divorced since '96). He reconnected with an old friend that belonged to a particular "leg" of Amway that considered themselves to be Christian. Every last one of those men counseled him that he basically had to get me under this thumb. Under their tutelage he decided that he needed to control every aspect of me--what I wore, where I shopped, what I read, what I watched, what I listened to, what my hobbies were, who I was friends with, how much I saw my family---EVERYTHING.

There is a reason why he's my EX husband, kwim?

So while there are those men who are Christians, who live by trying to reach the example that Jesus set of always acting out of love, there are those that see the teachings of Paul as license to be Lord and Master of their little domains. THEY are the reason that all Christian men get painted with the repressive/controlling brush. Thankfully, not all of them are like that. If they were I would not have married Bear..

Just my .02, hope it helps.


Bear sounds very much like all of the Christian men in my family. I approve. :)
 
Bear sounds very much like all of the Christian men in my family. I approve. :)

Thanks :) I'm rather fond of him myself! :D
 
Well, I've spent a lot of years dealing seriously with the Christian religion, and agree with a lot of what you say. After so much pursuit there is one problem (of many) that boils to the surface. Christianity and the Bible seem to be about the individual. For example, one reads the Bible by oneself. Also, however one relates to God and the Holy Spirit, it is usually one-on-One.

Actually for hundreds of years, most Jews and Christians were illiterate and the teachings of the Bible, both Testaments, were read out loud. The contents were kept close by the leaders of the congregations (Hebrew priests, rabbis, later, Christian pastors). The followers were fed only what was deemed expedient by their leaders. It was illegal to own a Bible. That is why the book was kept in Latin for so long. The first men that tried to translate the Bible into English were put to death.

The transition from a tribal feeling to recognizing the rights of the individual was a long process, and there is still a tribal feeling in many ways. Putting the needs of the group first before one's own needs is a common continuous thread.

The problem is people are social, we are defined by the company we keep, and we find solace and happiness there. Christianity will never help people as long as it keeps trying to get us alone. But the approach is wrong. The assumption is that we are all alike, we are like each other. We never are, never have been, never will be. But we keep being surprised about that.

Yes, being an individual while still being compelled to fit in, an ever present human problem.
 
Even some of the hard lines clear 'bad' can be not be totally wrong if you stupid and think:

"kill "adulterers", it means to kill adulterers"


Now killing is perhaps harsh, but as mentioned also, older times were harder times and penalties were often harsher....

Now as to kill adulterers... That is not what most understand (or use it) to mean, it is not just unmarried sex..

It is very specifically breaking of weddings vows, which perhaps are the highest vows one can make.

Honestly breaking of wedding vows, should be harshly punished...

Now if your vows to your significant other do not preclude other partners, then (arguably) it is not adultery (though perhaps it is also not a marriage, per the bible).

With the bible you have.

1) it has been re-written how many times, re-translated how many times.... Even presuming the original disciples wrote it down right, how many human errors have crept in when translated... transcribed.... (or straight up re-written to be 'more understandable').


2) Since most of the ones mentioned here are from Leviticus isn't all of Leviticus dealing with "Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel', nothing about not going to heaven if you do any of those, just bad luck if you are an Israelite or live in Israel. (see how wonderful translations can be)
 
Now if your vows to your significant other do not preclude other partners, then (arguably) it is not adultery (though perhaps it is also not a marriage, per the bible).

On the contrary, marriage was polygynous at the time both Testaments were written. Even early "Christians" were allowed to be polygynous. Only one verse in a Pauline chapter, mentions a bishop (not all men) should be married to just one woman, so he would have more time for his church duties.

1) it has been re-written how many times, re-translated how many times.... Even presuming the original disciples wrote it down right, how many human errors have crept in when translated... transcribed.... (or straight up re-written to be 'more understandable').

Deuteronomy retells earlier books with a contemporary spin, contradicting them many times. Jesus' "disciples" did not write the Bible. (All the books in the New Testament are pseudeponymous.) Paul only wrote some of the books attributed to him, as letters addressed to certain groups. Politicians wrote the rest.

2) Since most of the ones mentioned here are from Leviticus isn't all of Leviticus dealing with "Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel', nothing about not going to heaven if you do any of those, just bad luck if you are an Israelite or live in Israel. (see how wonderful translations can be)

Ancient Judaism did not have the concept of an afterlife. That was a concept borrowed from Persian religion.
 
Just Thinking

How did a thread that started out as an introduction by a loving couple digress?

Isn't it odd that those who claim to follow Jesus find so many reasons to discuss and vehemently debate opinions that teach us how to disobey His teaching that we are to love one another? Even our enemies.

The members of our own household are unfortunately, often our greatest enemies. It's always been very sad to me that the members of the so called church practice and preach hatred, judgment and condemnation under the cloak of belief in Christ.

And we wonder why those who don't believe Jesus is God shun us as the hypocrites we tend to be.
 
How did a thread that started out as an introduction by a loving couple digress?

It's a conversation, and conversations tend to do that! It's perfectly OK per the rules of the board.

Isn't it odd that those who claim to follow Jesus find so many reasons to discuss and vehemently debate opinions that teach us how to disobey His teaching that we are to love one another? Even our enemies.

Well, "love your enemies" was and still is a radical teaching. The Old Testament certainly did NOT teach that, and many people still tend to hate their "enemies" as the Israelites hated the Moabites.

The members of our own household are unfortunately, often our greatest enemies. It's always been very sad to me that the members of the so called church practice and preach hatred, judgment and condemnation under the cloak of belief in Christ.

And we wonder why those who don't believe Jesus is God shun us as the hypocrites we tend to be.

The Bible is a very VERY old collection of writings, which contradict each other and confuse many. The OT was written to encourage the traditionally polytheistic peoples to follow just one god, Yahweh (who was conflated with El, a god of Babylon). Most of the OT is nothing more than myth. There is no actual fact about Israel written until about 700 BCE, when Josiah saw the northern kingdom (Israel) assimilated by Babylon and superstitiously and forcefully tried to wipe out Asherah religion in hopes to get the power of Yahweh on his side, Judah's side, militaristically. Read the Bible, it's all in there. (Most Christians do NOT read the Bible, but just cherry pick.) I spent 7 years reading the Bible and associated books, 2 hours a day. I highly recommend Biblical literacy.

The Bible was written for an illiterate audience, first in Hebrew, then in Greek. It was preached and interpreted for the masses and no one could legally own a Bible until around 1500 CE. Scrolls of this or that book of the Bible floated around in different communties, according to their preferences and needs. New sacred books were written and later condemned. Revelation was not added to the canon officially until around 1600. It was seen as craziness until then (and it still is crazy sounding until you understand it was written about Nero or Domitian, and not as a prediction of end times).

Christianity is an awkward combination of polytheism, Yahwism, Babylonian and Persian religion, and Greek mystery religion (the dying and rising god associated with seasonal changes and fertility superstitions), all combined with the politics of 2000 years ago. Add in, they didnt have the benefits of modern science and knowledge of psychology we have today, and of course, it's going to be a mess of disagreements in the Christian communities today! It would be "odd" if it wasn't, in my opinion.

Personally I don't know why any thinking person even bothers to try to "follow the Bible." It's an impossible task without extreme cognitive dissonance being put into play.
 
Bible

Couldn't agree with you more that trying to make sense of the bible is a hopeless task.

I have a relationship with Jesus that is very personal shaped by my own experience.

I try to be very careful about making generalizations or suggestions that I have some special knowledge of divinity.

I have a unique understanding but nothing can contradict Christ's command that we love each other.

I love people who I wouldn't like to have sex with. I also love people who wouldn't choose to have sex with me.

I think it would be nice if the Christians who visit this web site could have an open discussion about love and sex without the confusion that comes from trying to understand writers of the bible who endorsed slavery, treating women as possesions and hating our enemies.

Jesus told us to love. My goal is to a very good job of loving. For me that's a chore worth working on.
 
Harry Potter

I've been around churches for the past 59 years of my 64 year old life that I can remember. Debates about the bible are like debating the true meaning of Harry Potter.

What disturbs me more than anything is that every single time I try to have a discussion about Jesus I end up getting sucked into a conversation about the bible. Here and everywhere else. Especially at church.

Jesus and the bible aren't one in the same. Jesus ridiculed study of the scripture. He vehemently opposed the religious autocracy that conspired with the government to kill Him. He warned that things would be written about Him that would create false teaching.

He said all of the law and the prophets were summed up with two commands. Love Him as God and love each other and ourselves equally.

I’ve spent a great deal of time trying to comprehend what it means to love my wife as much as I love myself. Not one instant of my introspection has caused me anything but even more love for her.

Jesus warned that there was one sin that couldn’t be forgiven. He called it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Elsewhere He said that if we don’t forgive each other God won’t forgive us. My conclusion is that the message of the Holy Spirit is forgiveness.

If I don’t agree with someone’s perspective I’m free to disengage but I’m never free to not forgive them.

So for me it’s sad that every single time I start reading interaction about Christianity it seems to be dominated by the theme that sexuality is the most important issue on Christ’s mind. In fact He said materialism is our greatest enemy.

As always I’ve read numerous opinions in the forum about the divinity of Christ. But I haven’t read anything that I’d consider unkind about Him from people who don’t believe He is God.

I’ve yet to read one single comment in this forum that promotes or supports treating each other like material objects. Quite the opposite this forum has provided me with insights on how I can continue to improve my lifelong goal to love my wife as much as I love myself.

I don’t believe polyamory is disobeying Jesus. At least not the polyamory being promoted here.

When I think Jesus I think love in esoteric terms. When I think polyamory I think of love in practical terms.

If there are other Christians on the forum I’d be interested to know how things are going with you with your application of Christ’s command that we love one another. I’ve learned that love is as much about letting go as it is about getting near.

I’ve also learned that a eunuch is not a castrated male but a male who has chosen not to get married and have children. I’ve learned that lust for someone who makes it plain their not available is sexual abuse.

I’ve never read a single statement attributed to Jesus about His opinion on homosexuality. I think the same rules apply to any two people who love each other.

For me I wouldn’t want to be sexually intimate with someone I don’t love. But I would always choose to love whether it was a sexually intimate relationship or not.

I’d really like to make connections and have discussions with fellow believers who have decided that they are non-monogamous. An exchange of experiences that includes more than the usual exchange of opinions about the true standard code language of Hogwarts. :)
 
...every single time I try to have a discussion about Jesus I end up getting sucked into a conversation about the bible.

Well, since Jesus originally appears in the Bible, that doesn't surprise me. Talking about Jesus is talking about "the bible--" his words are supposedly recorded there. There are other early (2nd, 3rd, 4th cent.) texts that are not considered canonical that round out his character, which I find even more interesting, though.

Jesus and the bible aren't one in the same. Jesus ridiculed study of the scripture.

Yes, he debated the elders at age 12 on the meaning of Hebrew scripture, amazing them with his knowledge. Then he moved on to throwing out much of their tradition. "You have heard it said..., but I say to you..."

He warned that things would be written about Him that would create false teaching.

Other "Christs," ie: Messiahs, were all around back then. Judeans were looking for anyone to lead them to overthrow the tyranny of Rome, as Cyrus the Persian had overthrown Babylon hundreds of years earlier, allowed the Judean leaders to return to Judah, and rebuild the Temple.

He said all of the law and the prophets were summed up with two commands. Love Him as God and love each other and ourselves equally.

This is historically recorded to be the words of another early current era rabbi, Hillel.

Also, according to wikipedia

As a concept, the Golden Rule has a history that long predates the term "Golden Rule" (or "Golden law", as it was called from the 1670s).[2][7] As a concept of "the ethic of reciprocity," it has its roots in a wide range of world cultures, and is a standard way that different cultures use to resolve conflicts.[2][6] It has a long history, and a great number of prominent religious figures and philosophers have restated its reciprocal, "two-way" nature in various ways (not limited to the above forms).[2]

Statements that mirror the Golden Rule appear in Ancient Egypt in the story of The Eloquent Peasant.[8][clarification needed] Rushworth Kidder discusses the early contributions of Confucius (551–479 B.C.) (See a version in Confucianism below). Kidder notes that this concept's framework appears prominently in many religions, including "Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and the rest of the world's major religions".[9] According to Greg M. Epstein, " 'do unto others' ... is a concept that essentially no religion misses entirely."[10] Simon Blackburn also states that the Golden Rule can be "found in some form in almost every ethical tradition".[11]

So, sure, take it from your "Jesus," if you like, but you don't need to be a "Christian believer" to find the rule of reciprocity makes good ethical sense.


I’d really like to make connections and have discussions with fellow believers who have decided that they are non-monogamous. An exchange of experiences that includes more than the usual exchange of opinions about the true standard code language of Hogwarts. :)

Good luck! Christianity had a long tradition of misogygny and sex negativity. It's much easier to practice polyamory from a pagan or agnostic/atheist standpoint/community.
 
Home Girl

My concept of divinity comes from Jesus. But, equally important I want to love you, but not more than I love myself.
 
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