What Should We Call the Descendants of Southern-States Slaves? etc.

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Staff member
Re (from london):
"As a half-black person, I'll tell you one thing us ethnics get pissed off about and that's white people deciding what is racist and what isn't. You know, the ones who say don't say this or don't say that are usually the ones who make the most derogatory comments out of sheer ignorance."

With that in mind: What moniker would you prefer for your own race/color/culture? since belonging to that race/color/culture is the only thing that gives you the right to express such an opinon.

And yet, since it's become such a looming hot-button topic, do you (if you're not a member of the ethnic now referred to) dare to share an opinion of what you think the descendants of Southern-States slaves (in the United States) ought to be called? What do you consider the most appropriate and least hurtful label?

If you are a descendant of Southern-States slaves, then you've already answered all the above questions simultaneously. But if you're not, then I at least for one am willing to hear what your opinion is on the matter of labeling the descendants of Southern-States Slaves (in the United States).

Naming your own race/color/culture is "easy." You've an inborn right to do that, so let your voice be heard on that matter at least, I encourage you.
 
I, personally, am pretty easygoing about how you refer to my ethnicity. I hereby grant you permission to call me Caucasian, white, honky, cracker, or whatever floats your boat. Just say it nicely (and I consider a poke in my ribs to be nice)! That's all I ask.

Re: the real hot-button topic here ... I personally prefer "blacks" (and "whites" when comparing the races), due to its convenience if not its literal accuracy. It offends some "blacks" but pleases others. Thus I think it's the closest we'll get to "pleasing everyone."

On the other hand, you will often hear me say "African American" because I think that a number of African Americans hate the word "blacks" (and colored folks, and Negroes, and certainly "the N word" even though I acknowledge African Americans' inferred right to use the N word to describe each other if they so desire) and I characteristically try to offend the least number of people possible.

I really don't have a "personal preference" about what word I use to describe "them." I'd be more than happy if they could tell me a word (or words) that they could stand/live with. Then I'd use that word (or words) from now on. But I fear that the ethnic in question isn't unified in the area of what they themselves should be called.

Which makes me kind of sad. :( But, when have semantic contraversies ever let us poor polyamorists alone? It should surprise no one that this particular semantic contraversy has come to haunt us here.

So ... what do *you* think of all this?

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I'm half Jamaican and half white European. I say I am mixed race. Many of my Jamaican family live in the US. They say they are black or African-American. Usually black though, especially those who weren't born in the US. My Jamaican family in the UK just say they are black or black Caribbean or black British on forms.
 
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I refer to people by their country of origin, mainly. We tend to call people from India, Bangladesh and Pakistan, Asian rather than people from East Asia. We call a Chinese person, Chinese. Someone who looks Indian, Asian.
 
And yet, since it's become such a looming hot-button topic, do you (if you're not a member of the ethnic now referred to) dare to share an opinion of what you think the descendants of Southern-States slaves (in the United States) ought to be called? What do you consider the most appropriate and least hurtful label?

Whatever they as INDIVIDUALS (not a group) prefer.
Which-is where it gets sticky.
SOME of them have a preference for black, others a preference for brown, others a preference for African American, others prefer colored, others prefer..... the list could go on for ages.

When dealing with an individual-or a group small enough to actually address personally, whatever it is that they prefer.
So-my group of black friends prefer black. When I speak of them, that is what I call them.

On the other hand, one of them dated a lady from New York City and she found that VERY VERY offensive. She prefers African American. She tried to push that I needed to refer to THEM as what SHE prefers. That is inappropriate. They and she are in fact individuals and because SHE prefers African American, it's most appropriate to use that term in addressing her race. HOWEVER-that isn't their preference, theirs is black and therefore, it's most appropriate to use black in addressing their race.

Which-is WHOLLY unhelpful when dealing with a conversation on a board like this-where you have people who may or may not share the same or similar races; but absolutely have different preferences.

In that case-you use what you know, and they need to be willing to politely state their personal preference when being addressed personally. THEN you use their preference when dealing addressing things pertinent directly to them.
 
Re:
"When dealing with a conversation on a board like this -- where you have people who may or may not share the same or similar races; but absolutely have different preferences ...
In that case -- you use what you know, and they need to be willing to *politely state their personal preference* when being addressed personally. *Then* you use their preference when dealing addressing things pertinent directly to them."

Sounds right to me. [Note the added "politely state" emphasis.]

P.S. Observe the thread title: "What Should We Call the Descendants of Southern-States Slaves? etc."

About that "etc." part: I consider a big chunk of it to be this question: How would you like your own race/color/culture to be treated, especially if you're of a minority race/color/culture, and the person/s "treating" you are of the majority race/color/culture?

And if some Caucasians (or other majority group) want to describe what they consider the best way to treat this or that minority race, I won't complain (but can't promise you won't get the evil eye from london if you do! ;)).

@ london ... your choices and preferences make sense and illustrate the unpretentious, logical approach to "the nomenclature problem."
 
Slavery was legal in all of the United States for centuries. So narrowing down the category to descendants of southern states actually excludes many people whose ancestors were enslaved outside of the South. I suggest 'descendants of slaves' instead.

And now back to discussion. Sorry, my inner historian had to be heard!

And descendants of people enslaved outside of the US - the Caribbean, Brazil, other parts of Latin America - have a different cultural background than those whose ancestors were enslaved here.

I have heard a few African immigrant acquaintances say they were ambiguous about the term 'African American'. They are indeed African, and are now American. However African American refers to the collective experience and history of the descendants of people from Africa who were brought to the US centuries ago and enslaved. It is not a good 'fit' for people who recently immigrated from Africa to the US - their ancestors were not slaves and their historical background and cultures are very different from how African American is typically understood. Of course, this is a tiny, anecdotal sample and can't be assumed to be representative.

But, yeah, ultimately it boils down to 'politely ask preferences and then use said preferences'.
 
I'm only a minority when I'm in certain places.
I refer to myself as a mutt. I LOOK white. So most people make that assumption and don't ask. Which is fine.

I honestly don't care what people refer to me as in regards to race.
I also don't care what color labels people use for the various races that I am related to (my kids are 3 different races, my grandsons are a 4th and my nephews are a 5th and my nieces are all a 6th).
I think the color labels take out a lot of the vitriol that comes with other designations. For example "Latino". Our PR family HATE being referred to as Latino OR Mexican OR Spanish. They prefer to stick to PR, but other people feel differently. My group of friends hates being referred to as African American, but others feel differently. My nephews don't care but their parents are bothered by "Eskimo" because that's only ONE of like 9 Alaska Native groups and it isn't' theirs. (My close friend who is also my ex boyfriend finds that one VERY annoying too. He's Aleut.)

On the other hand, my son-in-law is one or another American Indian-he simply doesn't tell anyone which and keeps it simple by leaving it at American Indian. So my grandsons are in the same boat (I'm sure we could find out if we wanted to-but why?).

GG and our daughter are Chinese. He prefers not to acknowledge or address it at all. He feels that since he can slide under the radar, it's better for him TO slide under the radar. But his mom and grandmother-could not. Their features are obvious. They don't like "oriental". They prefer specifically "Chinese". My daughter doesn't give a damn at this point and honestly-probably never will. We talk about it, she thinks it's very cool that she is part Chinese, but our family and social group are just so lax about terminology and everyone is accepted-so it's not a big defensive topic for her.

My nieces are black. They prefer to be referred to as black, not suprising as their parents and grandparents are the same way. But-again-they aren't living in an environment that has a lot of reminders or left over overt behaviors of racism towards blacks. They DO see A LOT of racism towards Alaska Natives (we all do) and it shows up in how defensively the different Alaska Native Groups react to being called by a different groups name (Aleut, Inupiat, Tlinkit, Eskimo, Athabaskan...). Most often it's people new to our area who do that. The people who have lived here the longest usually don't use specific designations like that without actually knowing the person.
 
I generally just call them people.
Although we may look different. Take away the skin and we are all the same.
I really feel the longer people keep debating on what to call one race or another we are just perpetuating racism. We are all people. Just my .02
 
I generally just call them people.
Although we may look different. Take away the skin and we are all the same.
I really feel the longer people keep debating on what to call one race or another we are just perpetuating racism. We are all people. Just my .02
Many people feel their race is a positive part of their identity and would like it acknowledged. But youve just decided that their race is irrelevant.
 
Re (from opalescent):
"Slavery was legal in all of the United States for centuries. So narrowing down the category to descendants of southern states actually excludes many people whose ancestors were enslaved outside of the South. I suggest 'descendants of slaves' instead."

Oh honey, only the moderators can fix that now.

If the mods want to change the thread title, then I'll nominate "What Should We Call the Descendants of Slaves? etc." (Got to have "etc." in there ...)

Sorry I didn't get my history straight before composing the existing title.

Re:
"I have heard a few African immigrant acquaintances say they were ambiguous about the term 'African American.' They are indeed African, and are now American. However African American refers to the collective experience and history of the descendants of people from Africa who were brought to the U.S. centuries ago and enslaved. It is not a good 'fit' for people who recently immigrated from Africa to the U.S. -- their ancestors were not slaves and their historical background and cultures are very different from how African American is typically understood. Of course, this is a tiny, anecdotal sample and can't be assumed to be representative."

A good example of why I put "etc." in the thread title. Covers my butt like no politician's business! :)

Re:
"But, yeah, ultimately it boils down to 'politely ask preferences and then use said preferences.'"

I like that solution. :) (Ahem, just have to make allowances for those of us who have the handicap of shitty memory banks.)

---

Ignorance confession: I did not know that Eskimos are just one of some nine Alaska Native groups. Interesting.

Re (from LovingRadiance):
"Aleut, Inupiat, Tlinkit, Eskimo, Athabaskan ..."

Moar! Moar! should be about four more cultural names. (Huh? Look it up in Wikipedia? But ... but ... my fingers are sooo exhausted.)

Re:
"We talk about it, she thinks it's very cool that she is part Chinese, but our family and social group are just so lax about terminology and everyone is accepted -- so it's not a big defensive topic for her."

And so, I've one more data point confirming that the attitude we exhibit, and behavior we exercise, toward a person of a minority culture, often affects that person a lot more than which words/synonyms we technically use.

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Re (from EdmCouple):
"I really feel the longer people keep debating on what to call one race or another we are just perpetuating racism."

Then ... let's not debate. Let's just exchange ideas and share stories. Which I think is mostly what we've been up to here so far.

---

Re: to regard race or not to regard race? ... almost a separate topic but not quite. In practice, I use race- (or culture-) related words when talking about said culture "in the third person." If I'm talking one-on-one with a person whose culture differs from mine, I seldom call them anything (not even just "person"), other than maybe calling their first name to get their attention. At most I use pronouns like "you" and "me." But if I and that other person start talking about cultural divides, then the cultural labels soon come out ...

---

Anywayz -- check out the following offsite post: http://aafteota.wordpress.com/2013/11/26/should-allies-speak-out/

It deserves to be a whole post on its own. It was first mentioned in the Polyamory and Racial Minorities thread -- and I thought it was germane to both threads. So here it is.

An ignorant ally is better than a sagacious enemy. Ignorant allies are willing to be taught and trained. Sagacious enemies figure they already know it all and certainly won't take instruction from the likes of *me!*

What it really seems to boil down to is that we have two (actually many) groups of people who've been marginalized by a certain other group of people. The situation is a big fat mess, and I don't think we can expect to find a perfect starting place to start from in trying to pick up the mess.

It's like when a hurricane or an F4+ rips through a bunch of neighborhoods. Rubble everywhere. Homes in shambles. Infrastructure gone. Live wires dancing on the streets. Roads blocked by uprooted trees and other debris. What more perfect place to start could there be than just picking up a board somewhere, and putting it in a "discard pile." It doesn't put a dent in the mess, but it's as good a way to start the clean-up (and re-building) as any.

And when someone else starts trying to clear a tree off the road, you don't yell, "Hey! We're not working on trees and roads now, we're working on boards! Get over here and help me." People in the midst of a great big mess need to treat each other courteously and considerately if they are to hold their morale together and attempt to wrest a new and better world out of the bitter jaws of disaster.

Race relations are a disaster. Peoples of both/multiple cultures are attempting to clean up the mess. The work is distressing and frustrating. Which is exactly why we all need to learn to exercise some patience and speak civilly and compassionately to one another. The mess (and lives lost) is bad enough without us bickering over every little word.
 
Many people feel their race is a positive part of their identity and would like it acknowledged. But youve just decided that their race is irrelevant.

Their race is entirely irrelevant on how I treat them, yes. They are treated no different then every other person in my life. How they see themselves is totally different. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your race or heritage. An example of this is that my heritage is Scottish, which I am proud of. My family came to Canada in the early 1800's. If you look at me it's quite obvious that I come from a Celt background. (Big, ginger and hairy LOL) now if you were to ask me I would happily tell you, but I am first and foremost a Canadian. I treat other people the same way. If I am curious about their heritage or race I will ask. Great thing about doing it that way, they never have to correct me for being wrong.
If a person feels it is important they will let you know, if you would like to know. Just ask.
 
KDT-I wasn't suggesting I know all of them. I only remembered from school (grew up here) that there were somewhere around 9.
But-here is some info I can toss your way about Alaska Natives. :) SMALL amount of info. ;)

"In Southeast Alaska, a region of lush forests, mild climate, abundant fish, game, and edible plants, the Tlingit (pronounced Klinkit), Haida, and Tshimshian Indians thrived...
The Athabascan Indians of interior Alaska and Canada faced harsher living conditions and were more often faced with famine than their neighbors on the coast...
The Inupiaqs settled along the north coast of Alaska and Canada, (where they are known as Inuits), and the Yupiks settled in Southwest Alaska. Both groups hunted, fished, and gathered the berries and roots that grew during the brief, cool summers...
The smallest group of Alaska Natives, the Aleuts, made their living from the rich sea that surrounded their home on the Aleutian Islands..."
http://www.alaska.gov/kids/learn/nativeculture.htm

(Inupiat and Yupik are the ones who consider themselves Eskimos. The rest DO NOT)
 
GG-just popped off with "don't forget the D'enaina" (spelling errors all mine).
LOL

SHIT! And the Ahtna! I can't believe I forgot that one! We spent half the dang summer studying them! ARGH! Sweet Pea just gave me a royal ration of crap! After dragging him ALL OVER the state and making him take notes on all of the information from the different places, I forgot them. I'm in the mommy-doghouse now!
 
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Alaska is home to at least twenty distinct indigenous languages. More than just dialectal variants, these different languages reflect the diverse cultural heritage of Alaska's Native peoples. For more information about particular languages, click on one of the language names on the left.

www.uaf.edu/anlc/languages/
This page, I can't copy/paste a pic-I'm not smart enough to figure it out yet. Anyway-it has a cool breakdown of the languages in a kind of graph pic if you want to check it out. ;)


Since I filled the page with AK Native info-one thing I can say that is brought up FREQUENTLY here, is that if "outsiders" want to promote more involvement with the Ak Natives, the best way to do that, is to "go to them" and immerse into their comfort zones.
So-go to their activities and join in. Once they see your willingness to join in their activities, they feel more comfortable joining into yours.

(just a thought to consider for how to promote intermixing)
 
I am mixed race, a descendant of Caribbean slaves. I appear white (although when I tell people I have African ancestry, some will idiotically say something like, "Oh yeah, I can see that in you."). I learned that the concept of race is a social construct that only serves to divide us more and I think it does more harm than good in many situations. But as a genealogist, I appreciate such categorizations because it helps me in my research.

And, by the way, from what I have seen in records and come to understand from conversations with other researchers, most people are more of a mix of races" than they would ever suspect.
 
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Re (from LovingRadiance):
"KDT -- I wasn't suggesting I know all of them."

Oh drat! I thought I was gonna get some free education without having to pore through Wikipedia. Alright, alright then, my cross to bear :).

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Natives#Cultures ...

Below is a full list of the different Alaska Native cultures, which are largely defined by their historic languages. Within each culture are many different tribes.

  • Athabascan
    • Ahtna
    • Deg Hit'an
    • Dena'ina
    • Gwich'in
    • Hän
    • Holikachuk
    • Kolchan
    • Koyukon
    • Lower Tanana
    • Tanacross
    • Upper Tanana
  • Eyak
  • Haida
  • Tlingit
  • Tsimshian
  • Eskimo
    • Inupiat (an Inuit people)
    • Yupik
      • Siberian Yupik
      • Yup'ik
        • Cup'ik
      • Sugpiaq (Alutiiq) (Alutiqu)
        • Chugach
        • Koniag
  • Aleut (in their own language they refer to themselves as Unangan)
Ha! Can't believe I pulled all that listing/unlisting off. Corresponds perfectly to the Wikipedia list! Sigh, the Force is with me.

I noticed from your http://www.alaska.gov/kids/learn/nativeculture.htm quote that spellings vary from site to site. I do think I found each of the groups your quote mentioned listed in the above list. (Found the D'enaina and Ahtna as well.)

Wow! Definitely lots more than Eskimos up there.

Re: http://www.ankn.uaf.edu/Curriculum/NativeGames/resource.html ... cool map. (That was the right one wasn't it) (wuz having trouble getting my cookie-hating PC to navigate to the right page)

Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Alaska_Native_tribal_entities ... Jeeezh ... now that's a long list.

Re (from Post #16):
"Sweet Pea just gave me a royal ration of crap! After dragging him *all over* the state and making him take notes on all of the information from the different places, I forgot them. I'm in the mommy-doghouse now!"

*Your* cross to bear. ;) Hope that doghouse is heated ...

Re: http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/languages/ ... intellesting ... vellly intellesting ...

Re (from Post #17):
"if 'outsiders' want to promote more involvement with the AK Natives, the best way to do that, is to 'go to them' and immerse into their comfort zones.
So -- go to their activities and join in. Once they see your willingness to join in their activities, they feel more comfortable joining into yours.
(just a thought to consider for how to promote intermixing)"

Well, I think the moral of the story for me is this: Wherever I go (and especially wherever I live), I should probably look for opportunities to mix/mingle with folks whose cultures/ancestries differ from mine, join in their activities, etc.

Even if that doesn't "convince" them to "try my culture on for size," at least it will make me more a part of my surroundings and the people within them. Okay ... now if someone can just extend th 24-hour day into a 36-hour day ... Anyone got a magic wand? :eek:

Re (from nycindie):
"From what I have seen in records and come to understand from conversations with other researchers, most people are more of a mix of 'races' than they would ever suspect."

Why do I suspect that you're right ... (Stars-on ... stars-off ... stars-on ... stars-off ...)
 
Giggle-If I find the link for how to extend the hours in the day I will share. But-as of yet my searches have all been for not.

"I can see that in you.." replies

THAT makes me laugh my ass off.
My youngest-as everyone here knows, is GG's child.
But people ENDLESSLY say "oh she looks just like you" to Maca. He's always intrigued.
 
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