Looking For Advice/Thoughts

okay, three points and then a result at this point...

first off, she SLAPPED you?! k. that kicked it up a notch for me... way more work to do if you are going to stay... never ever ever okay,,,, ever!!!

second, her privacy has been abused? This is a public forum and we don't know your names. There has been no abuse of anything and really, the one who's privacy has been abused is the girl you like and you for her demanding that that letter was her right to see.

third, she has no right to say she is a guru on poly... she's got a lot of learning to do and just because we are "on-line" does not make us amateurs. Have you read anyone else's story on here? Has she?

thirdly,RUN! yup, I think for me this would be the time where I tell her exactly what I think of how she has behaved and say goodbye... be sure to let everyone know why and that you really hope she gets some help somehow as she has become very damaged and disillusioned about her role in the poly community.... she should come with a warning label it seems at this point. "control freak"

Oh ya, a letter? to tell you how your relationship could be fixed? Are you serious? Why are you not going with her on these trips to a therapist? If she is really serious, should you not be picking one together that you both feel comfortable with and going together?

this relationship you have is entirely built on her control and your lack of standing up for yourself... you were doing good too when you first started talking... then you let her anger take over and you turned into mush.
 
Again, my thank to everyone for the help in this. I am honestly struggling to determine if I am in the wrong or right here, and your input has been extremely helpful. Apparently her visit to the counselors was not to seek advice about the situation of our relationship, but to find evidence for why she has not been emotionally abusing me.

This is the letter she sent me.

http://www.pastebin.org/322603
 
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That woman is seriously, serously in need of a good ole ass whoopin'!!!!!!!!!

I didn't read the whole thing. I lost patience with her after I read that she would be willing to contact persons a & b if YOU felt you needed a mediator! If I were to go that route I would personally opt for an impartial third party--someone who doesn't know either of you or the other parties who might be mentioned.

She can cite all she wants to BUT in the end it's how YOU feel you were treated that matters. Not her opinion, not her other lovers and not some professional.

Which brings me to--she went & spoke to other people about the situation yet chastised you for doing the same? Granted we are nameless, faceless people in this situation BUT as such we have no stake in the outcome.

A wee bit of a story so you can see where I'm coming from: Twenty odd years ago I met a boy whom I got to know and deeply loved. I thought he was the greatest thing (being a teen & in my early 20's this tends to happen). I did things with him that no one else had ever considered doing with me. He never hit me but he did control me in ways that were unhealthy. I didn't see my family very much, friends went by the wayside, I ended up living at a center for abused women and those who had no place ele to go (I had no place else to go since I didn't consider myself abused). My mind wasn't my own. It eventually turned out that he was mentally ill, it ran in the family, and ended up serving time three different times for sexual assault and forcible confinement. None of this was against me or I would have been the one serving the time & he'd be six feet under. Even now the details are fuzzy but I can honestly say that he was a control freak and loved nothing more than having me under his thumb and at his beck and call. We eventually married and stayed that way during his first jail term. He got out and things were going along great, or so I though, until he attacked one of my roommates with a steak knife & ran. That was the last straw. I divorced him and his controling ways. I went to councelling on my own and eventually became a mentally healthy woman again.

My second marriage was even worse with jealousy, mental and emotional abuse and one instance where he hit me. After ten years I couldn't take it any more and left. In good faith I even left our then 9 y/o sons with him because I could barely take care of me, let alone children.

I am happy to say that my kids are fine & I see them frequently and I am the happiest and healthiest I have felt and been in a very, very long time.

If you want more details feel free to PM me.

The point is that you can't always tell that YOU are the one being abused because you are too close to the situation. Those of us who are on the outside looking in can often see the situation for what it is because we aren't the ones wearing the rose colored glasses.

You obviously feel something isn't right with this relationsp & love not-with-standing you need to go over things point by point with yourself and see how these things made you feel. See how they made you feel as a whole. I'd be willing to bet that in the last year you have spent more time lost, confused and dreading what was coming next than you did happy and eager for the next good thing.

Your feelings are just as valid as hers are.

You may be young but in my opinion you have your shit more together than she does by about 1000%!

This is just a guess but you have spent a good deal of the past year confused by her behavior, haven't you? This is a very good sign that something isn't right with HER. It has nothing to do with you. Some people are very, very good at acting normal when the public is around just so they don't appear to be off their rocker. All bets are off when they are alone or in a one on one situation.

Please, for your own sanity and peace of mind, find yourself a poly friendly councellor and talk to them about these things and then RUN away from this woman as far and as fast as humanly possible! Sometimes we CAN love someone who isn't good for us. That doesn't mean we have to have a relationship with them. It means we acknowledge that love and move on with our lives. Good luck and please keep us up to date.
 
My brain hurts....just...way too much going on here...
But-from what I can gather, I was feeling the same way the others are, this is an awfully one-sided relationship, far as my eye can see, polyamorus or not.

Wow. I do hope things work out for the best. I'd say ditch the first girl and go with girl b, but I am pretty much clueless about this poly thing, just a member here out of curiousity.
 
Ok. Here's my thoughts.

In a nutshell, they haven't changed.

Leave.

*****
The expanded "remix":

Your love for her is hurting you AND is hurting her. Even if you are 100% wrong, the fact that your reality and her reality can differ that much means that you will NEVER be able to mesh without anything less than a profound breaking and remolding of your mind or hers which I can tell you from personal experience is just as fun as it sounds.

I do not know if you are right or if she is right. It does not matter who is right. Either scenario ends exactly the same way. You need to find a qualified mental health professional, hopefully one that knows about poly and get help. Tell them honestly what you are feeling. See the professional WITHOUT your SO there and maybe later you will have a joint session if you haven't broken up with her.

If you do not do this there is a very good chance she will continue to hurt you and you will continue to hurt her(and make no mistake, you are hurting her).
 
Would you like some hot apple NO.

As i said elsewhere to someone after reading all this:
My first gf could have been a carbon copy of this girl. I eventually got my head screwed on properly and kicked her to the curb, only to have her contact me years later looking to become friends again after an experience beating cancer. Her claim was that she had learned what the important things were in life (and that i was The One That Got away); but the truth was that she had just learned how much more she could manipulate people, without the bother of even having to use sex to get her way.

Toxic people rarely outgrow their toxicity. You need to tell this girl that she's damaged goods, and find someone who understands that relationships are a two-way street. She's controlling you, and it's clear that she's decided that for you to have the 'privilege' of being involved with her, that you MUST follow every rule she makes up. The point of you having a two-year period is nothing more than a manipulative control test. When she sees that you'll follow her rules willingly, don't be surprised when at the end of that two years she decides you're still not allowed to have others, based on her insistence of "You just don't know how to be poly."

some thoughts:

*She's using your lack of experience as a weapon against you. Rather than giving you the freedom and respect to actually learn these things through trial and error, she expects that the knowledge will somehow pop into your head via osmosis. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Further, this lack of knowledge and experience is being taken as a deliberate intent to "violate the boundaries" of your relationship with her.

*Not only has she not given you any input or dialogue on where those boundaries are; she's been actively moving them on you specifically to allow her to interpret your actions as having violated them. Her telling you that Making-out was allowed (then accusing you of cheating) is another test to show how devoted you are to her. It's designed to determine how much spine/willpower you have, and how you handle her decision that you've "wronged" her. In order to "Pass" the test, you'll have to submit your will completely, and accept her word as Truth. Those "two years" will turn into seven, or 20, of "Making it work" with her. In fact, i'm really starting to doubt if "Girl B" is really into you at all; she may well be an active participant in the test. Should you choose to dump the g/f and pursue B, watch out for this. It could easily be a routine that the two of them worked out together to help fill their lives with boys they can control.

*Giving you cited proofs in her letter that her actions do not constitute abuse is nothing but a diversionary tactic. Abuse is not defined by hard-and-fast parameters. Manipulative behavior is definitely abuse, regardless of how much she might try to argue against it. You have a right to your feelings and reactions; and nothing she can say or point at can make them "wrong" or "Incorrect".

*Something i decided years ago: I'd rather be happy than right. If taking ownership of my wrongdoing returns us to peace sooner, so be it. However, that does *NOT* include taking ownership of wrongs i have not committed. Doing so is as dishonest as lying. If a situation is misrepresented and blame is accepted accordingly, neither party can actually learn from the outcome, because the lessons as understood are incorrect.

*She seems to have taken the other road, where her happiness is specifically predicated on "Being Right". It really seems as though she's chosen her own need to "Be Right" (and therefore "Happy") over your own happiness. She's asking you to accept that as well.

*looking at how much effort she's putting into this (to be "Right" while still "making it work") is a big red-flag of how desperate she is to maintain control of you. Love is supposed to be about joy, forgiveness, and understanding. Not rules, blame, accusations, and "cited proof of non-abuse".

*Does she make you happy? All other points aside, this is one of the most important. If you really truly feel all the positives outweigh the negatives, i doubt you'd be posting here for advice. Follow your initial instincts.
 
I probably should not have said most of that, but reading all this made me so pissed.
 
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I fully agree with just about everyone that this chick is a major head case.

I love how in her letter, she says that her counsellors, friends, family, all agree that what she was not abusive. After only getting her side of the story.

That whole bit about "abusers never apologize" is pure and utter bullshit. Abusers apologize all the time. It's a major component of the abuse cycle. It's how they regain your trust so they can wind up and hit you again.

Speaking of which, she PHYSICALLY HIT YOU! I don't care what she says, no verbal or emotional behaviour ever EVER EVER merits physical violence in retaliation. EVER!

"Go make out with that chick" <you make out with that chick, as per her command> "Hey, you made out with that chick! That's cheating!" Uhmmm.... really? You actually fell for that?

Crazy Psycho Chick said:
But informing individuals, such as your disapproving family, who have the ability to verbally chastize, alarm or contact my personal networks, workplaces and family, have access to my personal belongings as I stay there, or any other type of negative response is very dangerous for previously listed reasons, disrespectful of me, and a violation of my basic rights to privacy.

Let it once more be said that I will never attempt to prevent you from talking about your feelings to your family.

translation: "You are not allowed to talk to your family about me. But I will not attempt to prevent you from talking to your family about me."

[sarcasm]No, no that's not a mixed message at all.[/sarcasm]

Look, if she loves you and trusts you, then she should trust that your family is only trying to help you. I'm sure they have much better things to do than spread gossip about her. Does she really think she's such the center of the universe that all your family wants to do is talk about her and tell all their friends and go through her stuff? Puh-leaze!

Ugh. Just drop her sorry ass. This is SO FAR BEYOND "working on the relationship" because the problem is not confined to your relationship, the problem is herself and she has to work on that on her own. Let her three other boyfriends and two lovers deal with her shit. Go find yourself a girl with some sense.

You say your family and you are moving away? I say, good. Clean start. New friends with no previous history and issues.

And next time your gut gives you a feeling that this is wrong, believe your gut. It's an instinct that has taken hundreds of thousands of years to develop, and it's very reliable, and it's there for a reason. When your gut says run -- RUN! Otherwise, you'll be eaten by these sabre tooth tigers again and again.
 
I probably should not have said most of that, but reading all this made me so pissed.

Damn, now I wish I'd quoted it for posterity. I completely agreed with you. It may have been harsh, but for once your harshness was appropriate! :)
 
first off, she SLAPPED you?! k. that kicked it up a notch for me... way more work to do if you are going to stay... never ever ever okay,,,, ever!!!

I was kind of wondering why so many people's responses seemed to assume that the relationship was worth further work. If everyone missed the fact that she was hitting the OP, that makes it somewhat easier to understand.
 
Damn, now I wish I'd quoted it for posterity. I completely agreed with you. It may have been harsh, but for once your harshness was appropriate! :)

I could bring it back, as the system saves previous versions of edited posts, but minus the part about how the OP deserves whatever he gets if he stays with this/these female/s.

Nobody DESERVES to be abused, but I have limited patience for people who realize they are in an abusive relationship and do not take steps to improve their relative position (to employ some roller derby terminology). There must be SOMETHING about this female that keeps the OP involved with her; perhaps the sex is phenomenal or something like that. But it seems to me that whatever benefits he gains from being in this situation are canceled out by the emotional terrorism, or at least they would be if it were me.

Having said all that, I thought about it on the ride home from work and decided that my tirade was a little pre-mature. After all, we haven't even heard the GF's side/s of the story, other than her lengthy relationship-dictatorship manifesto.:rolleyes:
 
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That was my thought is that we haven't heard her side of this.
While I would love to haul out and replicate other posts I hesitate. I am giving her a little bit of give due to the fact that its only been one sided.
 
I was kind of wondering why so many people's responses seemed to assume that the relationship was worth further work. If everyone missed the fact that she was hitting the OP, that makes it somewhat easier to understand.

AGREED ! Thats why I stopped reading this thread for a day or so.

This is not some 15 year old relationship, where some type of family death, or trauma happened and a spouse lost it for one day. That type of situation has a long history to show that it is not normal for a person to behave that way.

If she is hitting him so soon, over such minor things, ...it`s ridiculous to even contemplate staying.

'Charismatic narcissist',.....Is the term I would use to describe what I hear about her. Nothing is ever her fault. Along with the link I gave previously.

but,...people return to sick cycles all the time.

The only thing that ever stops it, is the abused person getting some time and distance from the abuser.


Once they have that, they can then gain some healthy perspective, remember what the 'self-preservation' is, and then stop the cycle through their own decisions.
 
Compassion and Love

Oh Sweety, I feel your pain. I really do.

Ok, here is the short of my story: I started out in a mono marriage and then my husband decided that he was poly. He gave me a terrible ultimatum (either accept his poly or get out). I stayed because I loved him, I knew anything could be done, if I just worked on myself. so I tried and I tried. eventually, like you, I met a nice man at a festival and we hit it off. I started dating him and my husband got terribly jealous. Instead of working with me on his jealousy (like I did earlier that year), he just closed off to me and stopped sleeping with me. I broke it off with my bf because I only ever wanted my husband to be happy. Not even 6 months later, my husband happily went into another relationship....that's when I realized he wasn't treating me as an equal.

I sought counselling for learning how to value myself more. (BTW, I reccomend "The Undervalued Self" by Elaine Aron)

Now, I'm not here to tell you the end of my story or what happened to me, but I think some of the elements are the same here.

Firstly, jealousy is hard to deal with. It's takes a lot of courage and humility to deal with jealousy. I can see your allure with regards to your girlfriend: with you she never had to deal with jealousy. You were like her adoring admirer and she never had to share you.

The thing is, she is not seeing all the work you have done, facing your own jealousy and your issues.

I am going to tell you something my therapist told me that was really profound and it changed my life forever: Relationships are not about who is right and who is wrong. They are about if people feel loved and cared for.


full stop.

That's it. there is no wrong or right. She can throw every professional saying in the book at you, but if you don't feel loved, cherished, or treated as an equal, her argument is worth nothing.

This is not a quarterly financial statement you are arguing over, it is YOUR HEART, YOUR SANITY, YOUR WELL-BEING.

I wish I could give you a hge hug right now. I know, because I really needed them. Go to people who make you feel loved right now.

Another piece of advice, it is a sad fact, but people who are just becomeing poly, or who are mostly mono, are not very respected in poly communities. I know from previous experience, that you are treated much differently - given more clout - if you have been actively poly for a while and it can lead to some people in the community being "poly tyrants".

The thing is, you don't stop learning, once you have been poly for 5 10 15 years...there is no magical moment that jealousy dissappears and all of a sudden you are an invincible poly superhero. Every poly person must work on every relationship. It is our duty as being rational adults, and humane people.

What your girlfriend is doing to you, is not loving, it's not compassionate, and it's not helping.

I wish you the best of luck and that you will be able to do what is right for YOU.
 
I feel most problems in life are a direct result of a lack of understanding, knowledge, and/or perspective. I hope the OP still reads this thread.

Read the articles in this link:
http://www.angryharry.com/esWomenManipulateMen.htm

If you feel connected to it, read more associative links on that page as well. I want you to keep in mind that while these opinions are very educated, they aren't the conspiracy theory end all solutions. However my logic in posting the site is that maybe by knowing the "bad" in people, specifically the women who is manipulating you, you will gain some back bone as you start to understand the true world of injustice you're being subjected to.

Good luck my friend, peace & love
-gabe
 
Once again, I want to offer everyone my most sincere thanks for offering all the advice and opinions above. It's helped me a lot in getting a clearer perspective on my situation, and I feel like every word I've read here has helped me grow to become a more mature person.

Ultimately, I know that what I want emotionally is to try and continue things with my girlfriend. I love her very much, and I know that a future with her would still be one with a lot of happiness in it. However, I recognize that there is something that needs to be changed in order for me and her to get this relationship into a good place, and I'm not quite sure what exactly that is. I know that I am fully willing to make every apologetic, loving gesture I can to her in hopes of resolving my own mistakes, but I am not willing to be the only one working to make the relationship work. As my one of my close RL friends told me, "Staying with her will likely make you happier, but leaving her is probably better for you overall."

I want to be able to say I at least came to her with some ways to fix the relationship that don't involve me making all the effort to do so. If she acknowledges and accepts them, then I am fully willing to put ever inch of my own effort into getting things fixed. If she doesn't, then I will regretfully tell her that a relationship between the two of us can't continue until she's willing to try. So my question is, what are the things I need to be asking of her in order to make sure I'm not the only one trying to fix the relationship?
 
Thank you again everyone for all the help you've given me over this past week. I spent a long time last night talking about the situation more with my brother and best friend, and I realize that though I do want things to continue, I'm still undecided as to whether or not I should try. The only reason I'm considering continuing things is because I now have all this information at my disposal, and there's a hopeful part of me thinking I can utilize it to make things better. But I'm also fully aware that it might just be better to ultimately get out, so I have another question. If I choose to go to her and tell her I'm not interested in continuing things, how should I go about that? Should I ask that we meet in IRL, do it over the phone, over IM, and what should I say?
 
My way of thinking, while unpopular, is still my way of thinking on this.

In my opinion breaking up with someone over the phone, IM, email, etc. is the chicken's way out (not that you are a chicken by any means). The one being broken up with may not GET IT. It is easier to ignore the facts even though they are staring them in the face in full fledged black and white letters.

If someone wants to break up with me I would much rather have them do it in person, face to face because then I can gauge how serious they are by their body language, tone of voice, etc. It's also easier to say good-bye in person, at least for me.

I've done one break up via snail mail & I still feel guilty about it even though it was 20 years ago and one over the phone. I didn't have much of a choice in either case since #1 was in jail & I couldn't mentally face the five hour drive to visit him in prison AND the break up itself. The other one was an LDR and I figured phone was still better than email or IM.

If there is any possible way you can do it in person you should. You will both probably feel better about it afterward and you can then make a clean break without the hassle of the back and forth emails about why you want to break up with her, etc.

As to what you should say....I think you already know what you want to say way down deep :). As for me: "Listen, I know we've talked about this a lot but I've come to some realizations after doing some reading and research and come to the conclusion that this relationship is toxic for me. I need to go and get myself healthy before I can consider ANY relationships with anyone in the future. Good-bye and good luck."

After the conversation (or however you decide to do it) don't open any of her emails, answer any of her phone calls (or those from her b/f if she tries to go that route). If you have to you can block her email/IM and you can block phone numbers for a minimal fee with your cell or landline provider.

Good luck. I can see you will go far if you decide to stay in this lifestyle just make sure you take some time out afterwards for introspection and grieving and to get your mental state healthy again.
 
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Hi, SeekerOfTruth. First off, let me say that I actually just now signed up on this forum solely because of this thread. I wandered in on a link from another forum discussing your thread and predicament, and I find that I just really want to voice some support for you, if you want it.

First off, I want to address the whole situation. You ARE in an abusive relationship with a person who is manipulating you badly. But something that others haven't yet said that might help you to understand it.... This is the hardest part of it, for me; something I still hurt over from an ex-husband who was also abusive. Your girlfriend does not, probably CANnot, understand that what she is doing IS, very clearly and without question, abuse (assuming all you've said here is truth, of course). She does not feel that she has abused you. It has never been her intent to abuse you. But she has, and unless she DOES understand and acknowledge that, she cannot stop abusing you. It will continue, almost certainly, and will likely get worse slowly over time. Her point in her letter about behavior needing to be intentionally harmful to "qualify" as abuse is false. An abuser might not have that intent. She can tell you that 'til she's blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that she has manipulated you, set you up for failure, HIT you(!!), threatened you, blackmailed you emotionally....
Just because she wasn't thinking "I want to hurt Seeker by doing X, Y, and Z" doesn't change the fact that she DID hurt you. And she isn't even remorseful in her letter; she justifies and reasons away every manipulative action by saying it was okay for her to do because of her emotions. It is NOT okay. Try to separate yourself from the situation and re-read the letter in the context of someone else writing to a boyfriend, rather than from her to you. See if you can then understand the very manipulative, controlling mind behind that letter. Even though she doesn't INTEND to manipulate and control, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT SHE IS DOING SO. Pay special attention to where she is telling you not to talk to your family or friends, and how if you DO talk to your family, she will have consequences for you. And then she tells you that she'll never tell you not to talk to your family. Another thing in the letter that irked me was that she chastised you for anonymously seeking help from anonymous folks on the web because she claimed it compromised her security somehow, but thought it fine of her to share the situation with other folks directly in her social network who might know you. And then she offered you HER FRIENDS to talk to, INSTEAD of your own; not in addition, but instead. I could go on, but I won't; I have other points to make still.

Next, I want to address your question about what needs to happen if the relationship is to continue. *Short and simple:
-She needs to stop manipulating you and controlling you through abuse.
-You need to define your own boundaries, and define what rules are acceptable in your relationship(s). I, personally, won't allow someone to dictate who I can and cannot date.
-She needs to define her boundaries. If any of them violate your boundaries (e.g., for me, if I were not permitted to choose who to date and when), then STOP, and go your separate ways. DO NOT let anyone violate your boundaries.
-You both should probably seek counselling, together AND separately, with councellor(s) not affiliated with either of your social networks (for example, don't take counselling from her friends or mentors; seek someone NOT attached to your situation).

Lastly, I want to address your most recent post. It's interesting to me that you used the term "get out" instead of "leave" or "break up".... This just feels like you're realizing your relationship is something to be escaped rather than ended. That's scary, huh? Or I'm putting too much into semantics, and my apologies, if so.

About HOW to end it, if that's what you choose.... Do it in a manner that will allow you to feel and be safe. If you will feel and be safe doing it in person, then that's most respectful. Just DON'T put yourself at risk of further abuse, physical or otherwise. Do it fast, like pulling off a band-aid.

Were it me, I'd reference her letter and state that if she honestly feels and believes that her behavior and letter have not been abusive, then there is no point in continuing the relationship, despite the love involved. Love alone is not enough to make a healthy relationship; both parties deserve respect and humane treatment, and these are absent.

As someone above said, I would cease all contact with her, though it'd hurt horribly. I feel it'd be necessary despite the pain of absence.

If you do end it, seek the counsel of the people close to you. Let them help you through this painful time. Get out; do stuff. And sort out your own feelings and experiences. Love yourself; you deserve it.
 
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seeker, in my opinion, she seems to easily manipulate you. I think, for your own safety, I would tell her that you don't want to see her again and that you feel that she can easily manipulate you and that is why you are doing it over the phone. I would call, to make it somewhat personable.

You might get some flack over this, but in the end it might just be safer for you.
 
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