Figuring all this Out

I think this is an important point.

It's easy to love someone when you have no responsibilities together.

When a couple has to deal with each other's shit, knows how bad it smells, and still chooses to love each other and work on the relationship, that's when you know you really have something valuable.

So maybe it would be helpful for those of you whose husbands have other, carefree relationships, to remember that even though it's no fun to do the dirty work, you're the one he's spending his life with, putting up with your shit (because you know you have it too), and coming home to at the end of it all.

Thank you SchrodingersCat - this is the point I was trying to get across. You did a much better and more succinct job of stating it. MG has not and most likely will not get to know 2rings at the level that I do because of our shared experiences as husband and wife. Does this take away from the love that they have? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Have they had a drama-filled, tough first year of their relationship? Yes. Does she love him enough to stick around? Yes. So I do know that they love each other and want to make this work. My point is the experiences that him and I have are monumentally different than the experiences that they have had.

I often get criticized because I tend to look at the negatives of this situation. I think as a mono that is pretty normal. This site helps me to see that there are other monos out there that are having the same experiences - and that THEY understand what I am going through. We all want to be understood. However, I often read the blogs and posts of polys - because I do want to learn more about this and understand how 2rings and MG are feeling. We come from two different ways of thinking and two different perspectives. Instead of criticizing or getting frustrated because someone sees things differently - we should try to have empathy and sympathy for each other and what we are experiencing.

My husband is my life. I have no regrets for marrying him, having children with him or staying in our marriage while accepting his poly lifestyle. But it is hard. It is a huge adjustment. It is a rollercoaster of emotions. Some days things are good and some days things are bad. I am doing the best I can to learn about this and to be accepting of this. I am not progressing at the rate that 2rings and MG would like - but I have come a LONG way. I am proud of myself even if no one else is.

Thanks - Kat
 
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This is probably going to get me skewered

and I am honestly not posting it for the sake of being provocative (or as Z says, I'm not being a troll) but.....I think some poly relationships could be a form of cheating.

Being out in the open doesn't necessarily mean it isn't cheating just that you have the guts to tell your partner. Leaving a relationship because your partner wants to add another party isn't an option for many of us. If you love your partner, you don't want to lose them and you want them to be happy. There are also all the financial and family issues holding you together.

Cheating is a horrible word, maybe I should replace it with "avoidance"? in a big relationship (no practical label: e.g. marriage, long term, committed etc.) both parties are responsible for the life that has been built. If that means that because of children, work, financial pressure or whatever, you have lost or are challenged by the ability to be as intimate, passionate and present in the "now" as you would like; to then go and find that which is lost or difficult, with another person, is surely avoidance at best or at worst a form of cheating?

Sage
 
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One of several or many things you're leaving out of this portrait is the real possibility that a new partner experience can bring freshness and vitality and enhanced loving into an existing partnership experience, Sage. I've experienced that, so I know it can happen.
 
definitely!

Thanks for that river and I'm not saying that it can't. I have actually found that in my own experience. But I do think it is something that needs to be looked at, especially with all the feedback I have received in this thread. Being Poly does not make us immune to cheating or avoidance.

Z (who isn't one for too much in-depth relationship thought) came up with the idea that he can't be with his other, emotionally or physically unless things are right with us first. That gives me a lot of reassurance that he wont take an escape route if there is something that is difficult going on with us that needs sorting.

Sage
 
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Through my own jealousies I have realized that I have a tendency to do too much and then feel resentful about it. I am trying to let go of a lot of the domestic stuff that I have been conditioned and conditioned myself to believe is necessary.

Great self observation.

Its a weakness in me too. Apply it to anyone I am trying to hold onto or impress and I put more of myself into it and then have reciprocal expectations...which is actually where my personal resentment comes from.

I either need to stop being so...giving (wrong word but can't thnk of anything else) or...stop expecting the same in return

I opted to stop the expectations. I wouldn't be me if I didn't give myself...:)
 
and I am honestly not posting it for the sake of being provocative (or as Z says, I'm not being a troll) but.....I think some poly relationships could be a form of cheating.

*giggle* colour me provoked! :)

Being out in the open doesn't necessarily mean it isn't cheating just that you have the guts to tell your partner. Leaving a relationship because your partner wants to add another party isn't an option for many of us. If you love your partner, you don't want to lose them and you want them to be happy. There are also all the financial and family issues holding you together.

If I may interpret, it sounds like you're saying "feeling trapped" does not constitute "giving consent." A spouse might say "I'm going to do this, and if you don't like it, get out" and you might feel that you can't get out, but you sure as hell don't support his behaviour.

I was raised very independently, and even though I am not currently financially independent, I can't imagine myself in a situation where I couldn't leave. If I were to up and leave my husband, I would be slightly screwed for a while, as I found a job and housing. My standard of living would go down several orders of magnitude, and I could forget about finishing my degree any time soon. I think it's unhealthy to allow yourself to be in a situation where you couldn't get out if you wanted to. I would hate to be the spouse of someone who was staying with me only because they had to, not because they wanted to.

Cheating is a horrible word, maybe I should replace it with "avoidance"? in a big relationship (no practical label: e.g. marriage, long term, committed etc.) both parties are responsible for the life that has been built. If that means that because of children, work, financial pressure or whatever, you have lost or are challenged by the ability to be as intimate, passionate and present in the "now" as you would like; to then go and find that which is lost or difficult, with another person, is surely avoidance at best or at worst a form of cheating?

As I see it, cheating is all about the consent of your partner(s), not your motives for doing it. Whatever your reasons for going out and getting another relationship, and they may or may not be good reasons, it's only cheating if your spouse says you're not allowed.

I feel, personally, that staying with someone when you know they're in another relationship, constitutes consent. Again, this is because I can't imagine myself in a situation where it was impossible to leave. RedPepper is the perfect example of someone whose life is completely tied up with another person, several in fact, and she's one of the loudest proponents that you can always leave any relationship if you want to.

After a spouse has announced they're going to have other relationships, I get the impression that many partners decide that they love that person enough to stay with them even though they're doing this really hurtful, painful thing. Those are just the people who end up here, looking for support as their poly spouse explores the lifestyle. Obviously there are others who say "to hell with that" and hit the road.
 
Pain-body stuff

I was trying to reply to SC"s post while reading the post about Eckhart Tolle (over in the spirituality section)and my pain-body got activated big time. In the end I just had to leave it. Even now, the next morning I feel it all coming up again. The pain is around leaving a long term relationship, which is what i did, and believe me the reality of it can be a lot heavier than you would ever think if you haven't done it.

When I say cheat what I mean is that I think it's cheating if you avoid dealing with things in one relationship because you have another one you can take refuge in if the need arises. An example of this could be if you have a hefty domestic load which is a stress in relationship A and seek refuge from that in relationship B, without making an effort to address the stresses in relationship A.

Sage
 
There is a high level of consciousness in this forum

and that is helping me to find the positives in polyamory, even though for me at the moment monogamy would be easier (I think).

I left a relationship I wasn't happy in and one of the results has been a big come down in standard of living, which doesn't worry me that much. What does worry me is that I am working ten hours a day doing work that doesn't sustain me. I get down because I see it as such a waste of my time.

This is where I depart from old Meister Tolle. I used to try and accept the situation, now I try and fix it. I was working hard to pay off some debts. Well no more. I am going to save most of the money I'm earning in these big contracts so that i can afford to take a break and get my writing career into a more financial phase.

Thanks for your concern MG. Really appreciated.

Sage
 
Crossing Over?

I was going to call this post "All Quiet on the Western Front" because that's an apt description of my week but who the hell would read that so Crossing Over is a bit more intriguing don't you think?

So, what do I mean? Do your relationships cross over? i.e. when you're with one partner do you talk about your other relationships or do you try and stay present with who you're with at the time? Do they come up in the bedroom? Z's other love W definitely does and it feels a little weird but kind of natural as well.

I used to go through periods of upset about it because I was worried I wasn't exciting enough for Z on my own and he had to keep bringing up W during sex (his big fantasy is a threesome). So we tried excluding all talk of her but that seemed unatural because in Z's mind we are very much a V, "he loves his girls" She's his second best friend (after me) (just a label for understanding purposes) and they talk every couple of days so it is natural that she come up in normal conversation a lot too. It reminds me of Princess Di's comment about Charles and Camilla " There are three of us in this marriage". Ha, imagine the royal family accepting polyamory?

I know there is no "normal" but wondering how others deal with this?

Sage
 
Abnormal

My daughter and her husband came for dinner and I thought I would try out some of Morning Glory's advice about putting a positive spin on Z being poly.

It seems she was happier with my grudging acceptance than me embracing the situation. She called us "abnormal" and asked me not to talk of it in front of her husband because he couldn't handle it.
I don't mind being different but I thought "abnormal" was a bit strong.
 
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Unfortunately "abnormal" is a pretty tame word in my experience. I've got a friend who knows all about my relationship but has asked me not to mention it to his wife. He is worried she won't want me around him anymore.
 
Worrying

I've got a friend who knows all about my relationship but has asked me not to mention it to his wife. He is worried she won't want me around him anymore.

Don't you find that really sad? Even Z (who is the one who wants the secondary relationship) is very wary of me talking about any of this. I find it really interesting that being honest about ourselves can be such an issue.

Sage
 
Sorry to hear that Sage. I guess I have been really lucky with whom I have come out to about being poly. Also I think I probably know who will be accepting and who won't so I have been selective in sharing. Hope it gets better with your daughter or that she sees that everyone is happy and eventually is okay with it. May take a little time. Then again some people just won't accept. :( And don't forget women have been putting up with cheating husbands for years so that is viewed as a little more mainstream. For some people it is easier to think that a woman is a victim of her circumstance rather than an active participant in exploring her happiness via alternative means. Keep looking for the positives!:)
 
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Yeah. That daughter, after Z, is my best friend and I sense this is going to be a bit of a journey for us. I had her when I was very young and she has often taken on the more conservative role in our relationship. Her embracing Christianity hasn't helped the situation.

I do worry that in being upfront about aspects of your life that can be perceived as "abnormal" people are so confronted they no longer see you, only that one confronting aspect.

As an aside I was doing some polyamory research and came across the fact that one of the first references to polyamory was made by Morning glory Zell-Ravenheart in the late 1980s, any coincidence?

Smiles


Sage
 
Sage,

I have loved reading your thread. It is great in depth discussion about poly vs. mono and how we feel about the different points we are all at. And the latest seems to be about coming out. DH and I have decided not to come out. It would never work in our family and among our friends. His brothers know but they don't really understand how it works. They just think "Hey cool wife, she lets her husband sleep around". They just doing seem to grasp that there is so much more to it than that. One of his brothers while stands behind DH no matter what his decision doesn't agree with how we came into this because of all the cheating. His other brother is d-bag most of the time so it really doesn't matter what he thinks.

Our families are bible thumping church addicts where they have strong enough opinions about homosexuality. Forget poly!

So for that sake it is a lifestyle we choose to live in peace and so far have been very successful at working towards that. Its a personal choice.
 
What would you do?

Thanks Ak, I'm really happy for you the way things are going. Things are going well for us too but I have an unusual situation that maybe you could give me your thoughts on; anyone else feel free to jump in as well.

OK, Z knew W before me, but for a variety of reasons their relationship has grown in the two years we have been together. In the beginning I set some firm boundaries around their friendship, i.e. cuddling is OK, naked massages are not. I should say here that W and I are on good terms, she has stayed with us and we have stayed with her. We've all cuddled up in bed together (Z in the middle).

Anyway I set the boundaries when I was still holding out for my fantasy one-on-one relationship. I suppose I asked her to back off, from memory I said "I want to have a beautiful, committed, passionate relationship and I can't do that if he's in love with you" Hey it was a pivotal conversation, you remember these things.

Z feels that because of that conversation their relationship can't go any further. W has put up a wall which he keeps bashing up against.

I have emailed her and told her that I have been exploring polyamory and am now in a more accepting space regarding their relationship. She responded with something about Z and polygamy. She hadn't heard of polyamory. I sent her a good definition from wikipedia. That was weeks ago, she was supposed to come to stay but canceled. They have resumed their platonic phone calls and texts as if nothing has changed.

So here's my question. Have I done enough to right the situation? Z's shy and not good at communicating about this kind of thing. Also probably afraid of rejection Unless I intervene they will probably bumble along for years. But then is it really my job to facilitate their relationship? Isn't that going above and beyond?

He is in love with her and she says she loves him but she doesn't want the torment of opening herself up to him (because he will predominately
be with me I guess). Z feels that if I was more supportive and welcoming of her she will feel less vulnerable and reconsider. She has said she would like to go on holiday with us. I think there is also an element of her enjoying having him hanging around. She's older than him by over ten years; it must be a bit of an ego boost.

Any input gratefully received.

Sage
 
As an aside I was doing some polyamory research and came across the fact that one of the first references to polyamory was made by Morning glory Zell-Ravenheart in the late 1980s, any coincidence?

Smiles


Sage

No! But this made me laugh, I will have to research MGZ-R! Purely coincidence. Love it, thanks for sharing that bit of trivia!:D

So here's my question. Have I done enough to right the situation? Z's shy and not good at communicating about this kind of thing. Also probably afraid of rejection Unless I intervene they will probably bumble along for years. But then is it really my job to facilitate their relationship? Isn't that going above and beyond?

He is in love with her and she says she loves him but she doesn't want the torment of opening herself up to him (because he will predominately
be with me I guess). Z feels that if I was more supportive and welcoming of her she will feel less vulnerable and reconsider. She has said she would like to go on holiday with us. I think there is also an element of her enjoying having him hanging around. She's older than him by over ten years; it must be a bit of an ego boost.

Any input gratefully received.
No it is not your job to facilitate their relationship, but if you are interested in their happiness it is always good to be supportive of loved ones. You are facilitating your relationship by embracing your love's (W) need for continuing his relationship with Z. You are open to a friendship with her and so in facilitating your relationship with Z you are also lending support to their relationship by providing a safe environment for it to develop at its own pace. You are doing all the right things, and you will eventually see the benefit for yourself. YOU will be happy because they will be happy and secure in all of the dynamics of your relationships. Stay positive. And keep posting!
 
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