Bewildered...

leelee22

New member
After reading a few introductions, I feel like it would take months of research to learn all the terminology needed to describe oneself here!

I'm Leelee, and I think what I am is the "secondary" to a person who has a "primary".

I am a (divorced) single woman. My lover is a man in a long-term relationship with a woman. They had a monogamous relationship for many years, but decided a few months ago to turn it into a sort of open relationship. I say "sort of" because it's only open on HIS side, i.e., his partner is not interested in any other partners, which he is happy about, because he's not sure he'd like it if she were. He is allowed to have male and/or female secondary partners, but she is entitled to ask him anything she wants about those relationships. I am the first "secondary", supposedly. I haven't met his primary and he doesn't want me to meet her. He says she wouldn't want to meet me.

One of the first things I read when I first checked out this site was David Noble's "So somebody called you a Unicorn Hunter" article. It made me sad. What he wrote about these "unicorns" that people are supposedly looking for sounded alot like my situation. I have no say in the terms of my relationship with my lover -- his primary gets to dictate when he can and can't see me, what we can do together (sex only; "socializing" like going out for a drink or for dinner is forbidden), etcetera. I didn't get to negotiate ANYTHING about the relationship, and I constantly wonder when his "primary" is going to pull the plug on things. Sometimes I even wonder if she actually exists, or if he is making her up. If she DOES exist, she seems to view me as a sort of free service provider that takes care of her husband's sexual needs for him so that she doesn't have to.

I guess this introduction sounds pretty miserable. My first impression of polyamory is pretty negative, I think. Objectively I can understand it -- my ex had lots of mistresses and he was constantly lying about it. I'm not sure monogamy comes naturally to many men. For a couple to accept that and to negotiate other partners in a honest way does seem like a good thing. But from my perspective, my position in this thing has many negatives and very few benefits.

Lee
 
Hi Lee,
I'm Jim. Welcome to the forum. Poly is not intended to be a lifestyle that makes someone feel bad about themselves or their relationship, in my view. My sympathies go out to you for feeling the way you do.

"Secondary" can be a misleading, and often misused term, I think. Some folks will use the term "Other Significant Other (OSO)." The key word in that term is "Significant." If you were treated as "Significant" rather than "Secondary" your story would be much more positive and uplifting. There's no requirement here to be positive, or uplifting, in terms of the forum. In your relationship, though, do you not have a right to be significant and therefore feel rewarded and cherished? It's always difficult to get a true picture of a relationship in an introduction, but my vote is that you clearly deserve better than what you're getting. It is very much achievable, and many poly people consider all of their partners to be valued equally. I wish you the best luck in attaining that quality of love.

I think you will find plenty of resources here to aid you in your relationship, or in learning to expect and even find a better one. :)
 
It sounds like you entered into this relationship with your eyes open knowing how it would be. You haven't been with this person for very long, and according to the story he gave you, they don't have much experience with nonmonogamy. You clearly are not happy with this situation. He sounds like a douche to me the way you described it. Now i'm expecting you to come back and say that he's not like anyone you've ever met, he makes you feel like no one ever has before, if only he'd chaaaaaaaange and if only his wife would stop being a controlling harpy.

Am i getting this?
 
Welcome Leelee,
Im sorry your experience has been difficult. I hate the term secondary. I beleive you are in a V relationship with the guy as the hinge. I am in the same relationship and I am also the OSO. I had some of your same concerns yet not to your extent. Rules and conditions have to be discussed ahead of time and even then they may get misunderstood along the way. Positive,open, honest communication is what helps to sustain IMO. Maybe you can talk to him tell him how you feel, let him know what your feelings are.

I didn't get to negotiate ANYTHING about the relationship

Would you accept this in any other relationship? (ie family trip,business)

she seems to view me as a sort of free service provider that takes care of her husband's sexual needs for him so that she doesn't have to.

Until you said those words I didn't realize that this is something I provide also but I also get other benefits of an actual relationship that I cherish and enjoy. You have to remember this is your relationship also, and If you are not getting what you want out of it, then express that and possibly renogotiate the terms of the relationship.

What do I know Im just a beginner, some really awesome people will be along shortly.
Best of luck to you!
 
Also, where the heck did you get the idea that polyamory means having lots of mistresses and lying about it?

So you went from being the wife who was being lied to about the mistresses to being the mistress who is being lied to about the wife? And someone told you that this "is" polyamory?

You could memorize every definition in the glossary and you still would not have the right words to describe this fucked-up situation.

Oh and before people crawl up my ass for judging and assuming, let me tell you a little secret about myself. My mother became involved with a married man when i was 10 or 12. They were together until she died when i was 30 (that's a long time). Supposedly, the "story" was that they slept in separate rooms, had DADT (don't ask don't tell), and were staying together "because of the kids". Well, the "kids" are now in their 40's, as i am. To this day i wonder if that man was telling the truth about any of that. So i think i am very qualified to have a strong opinion about situations similar to this.

That said, my mother was content with their relationship and if he lied, he was a good liar and i'm pretty sure he came and went as he chose, not as his wife decreed. Your situation sounds untenable. The sex must be incredible because i can't think of why else you'd put up with this bullshit.
 
Hi Lee,
Welcome to our forum.

It makes me sad to hear about your situation, it doesn't sound like you have any rights. You're not just an object, you're a person; you deserve to be treated like a person.

I don't want to tell you what to do in your situation, but it seems inevitable that you'll reach the point where you'll say, "I can't do this anymore." Then you'll have to state some minimum needs that have to be met for you if you're going to stay in this relationship.

Some really awesome people have posted so far; different people have a different way of saying that they're pulling for you on this. I hope things get better for you soon.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
For a couple to accept that and to negotiate other partners in a honest way does seem like a good thing. But from my perspective, my position in this thing has many negatives and very few benefits.

Welcome.

I'm sorry your situation is negative for you and are treated without a voice in the things that concern you. You sound like you DO want a voice in the relationship. So...why accept these terms? If terms don't meet your needs? :(

Ultimately you are responsible for your health and well being. What's your plan to get out of this situation now that you have become aware that polyshipping could be executed in a more honest, open fashion? You don't sound happy in this situation and some of your needs are going unmet. :(

Could choose to do something about it.

Galagirl
 
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"needs going unmet" = allowing self to be treated like a prostitute except prostitutes get paid in cash instead of a slick story.
 
Hi everybody,

Thank you so much for your posts! I was really touched that you took the time to write back, and no, I'm not offended.

Jim -- yes, I'm definitely NOT "significant" in this person's life (or at least he pretends that I'm not... and tells me I'm not... but always seems so eager to see me). He fancies himself "unconventional", and his response to me asking for a connection beyond sex seems to be to suggest that it's disappointing that I would be so conventional as to need that. You know, that sigh that says "typical needy WOMAN". And BoringGuy (though you seem nothing but!), he readily admits that he is a douche. And no, he doesn't take my breath away, and the sex is NOT unusually special. He does have some good points. I like that he is bi, for instance. And smart.

(BoringGuy -- your suspicions about your mom's lover inventing the reasons for staying in his marriage hit home. I recently found out that years before my divorce, long before my marriage was in trouble, my ex was telling his mistresses exactly that: that he and I were "living separate lives, sleeping in separate rooms" though it was completely untrue. We were happy. He just wanted outside sex! )

Perhaps what rang most true about what you wrote, BoringGuy, is that this man and his partner have no experience with ethical nonmonogamy. They are just learning. And she is not comfortable with it. And his way of trying to increase her comfort is to cram me into this very limited little sex-toy package. She tests him by saying to him "you can't meet her for a beer after work, because that seems too much like a relationship. Sex only." And he passes the love test by dutifully enforcing her rules. But I also think it makes the whole thing too easy for him... if he doesn't want to make an effort toward me, he can just say "my partner says we can't go for a beer", and that's that, it's out of his hands.

And Janelle -- it's nice that you can also relate to the idea of being a "free service". This man's primary partner would ideally not have sex with him, ever. It reduces the friction in her relationship if he has me to meet that one need, and he stops hounding her for it. Which begs the question, what DOES she want him for? I suspect she wants him there for economic reasons. Which is nasty; but ultimately, it's none of my business.

Anyway, moan, groan, grumble, what an awful way to introduce myself. You are all obviously right, and this is not what polyamory is supposed to be like, and I need to get rid of this man. It's not like he would be hard to replace. My main issue is that at my age, all the men I meet have kids and want to create a blended family... which I don't want to do. I promised my kids, when I got divorced, that I would not do that. They are teenagers. They won't be with me too many more years. I don't want to cohabit with anyone. So this arrangement appealed to me because there was no possibility of this man pressuring me to move in, like my other boyfriends have always ended up doing.

But this guy aside, the idea of polyamory does still appeal to me. I tend to be at least serially monogamous... but I find that so many men can't do monogamy... and I would prefer to find one who has the balls to negotiate for non-monogamy (this is one of the few things i admire about my current guy -- that he actually negotiated this with his wife, instead of cheating). So I am still interested in this lifestyle. But I know I need to find someone who is willing to have a REAL relationship with me, regardless of whether or not he has other lovers. So I am glad I found you lot to help me sort it out. thank you for listening.

Leelee
 
"needs going unmet" = allowing self to be treated like a prostitute except prostitutes get paid in cash instead of a slick story.

BoringGuy,

This is not helpful at all. It is victim blaming and that is not ok. If the OP triggers you this badly - and this is different in tone and intensity than the rest of your comments - ignore this thread. God knows the stories on this board can sap one's ability to empathize but when you reach that point, it's time to take a break.
 
BoringGuy,

This is not helpful at all. It is victim blaming and that is not ok. If the OP triggers you this badly - and this is different in tone and intensity than the rest of your comments - ignore this thread. God knows the stories on this board can sap one's ability to empathize but when you reach that point, it's time to take a break.

I disagree that this is "victim blaming". I'm not "blaming" the OP for the treatment she is receiving. I am pointing out that she is allowing herself to be treated poorly. And it is her own words...

If she DOES exist, she seems to view me as a sort of free service provider that takes care of her husband's sexual needs for him so that she doesn't have to.

...that suggest to me that she herself already feels as if she's being treated like a prostitute.

I appreciate that you do not like the way I communicate. I am guessing that if you feel that my post violates the updated forum guidelines, you have already reported it to the moderators. And in the same vein, I have done due diligence by explaining the sentiment and intentions behind why I made that comment.

Thank you for your concern, Opalescent.
 
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ETA: I thought about this some more. I mentioned "being treated like a prostitute" but I never associated "prostitute" with "victim". I realize that exploitation commonly goes hand-in-hand with "business as usual" in the sex industry, but I am baffled by why someone would automatically assume I'm "victim blaming" just because I compared their relationship to the relationship between a prostitute and a client BASED ON THE PERSON's OWN WORDS. I did use Gala Girl's reference to "needs not being met" as a catalyst for my comment, so perhaps that is really where Opalescent takes issue with my remark?


I do not automatically associate "prostitute = victim". I associate "prostitute = person who gets paid for providing a service". The OP, I repeat, is being treated "like a prostitute" ACCORDING TO HER OWN WORDS, although she does not use the "p" word, and getting "paid" with a story that keeps her coming back for more. If she LIKES that, then more power to her. however, she's on here talking about how much she DOES NOT LIKE IT, and therefore I am trying to get her to see it from a perspective that may help her to make decisions that get different results.

May I gently suggest to anyone who is "triggered" by MY communication style to please put me on your "ignore" list? that would be great. I'm doing everything I can to make sure I am understood and not misunderstood.


ETA2: I'm reporting this and asking the moderators to split these past few posts into a discussion thread. I want to think about it some more and write more but I have to go do other things. Also, I don't want to hijack the OP's thread, but can/will link it to the split thread in case anyone else takes issue with my content. Any fallout can be addressed in the discussion thread.
 
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thanks

thanks, Opalescent, for sticking up for me, that was nice. I am pretty tough, though. I've had some challenges in my life and I am pretty strong. somebody calling me a prostitute isn't going to hurt me. I've heard it before.
 
It's ok, BoringGuy. It was a blunt thing to say but you picked the right person to say it to. I'm not very fragile, and I DO feel like a prostitute in this situation.

(Opalescent -- I know you meant to speak up for the board... and that was nice).

I personally think that there's variety in prostitutes. Some are very much victims, and some are absolutely not. Depends on how they became prostitutes, and whether they had alternatives. I am a self-supporting middle-class woman with a graduate degree. If I let someone turn me into a prostitute (for free) because I'm lonely and horny all the time, I'm not a victim, I'm just an idiot. I have bad relationship skills and no self-esteem. Men can spot my particular combination of flaws a mile away, and they use it to their advantage. I would like to learn how not to be this way. But it's not as easy as someone telling me "you let people treat you like a prostitute, so stop". I don't walk around with a sign on my forehead that reads "easy to take advantage of". It's an incremental thing. I'm easygoing, I like to make people happy, I don't offend easily, it's a cluster of personality traits that get expressed in how I make decisions and respond to other people's behaviour that ultimately result in me getting taken advantage of. It's not like I SET OUT to be treated like a prostitute, or want to be!

For this not to happen, I'd have to constantly act contrary to my own personality. That's hard to sustain, on a consistent basis.

Anyway, whatever, I was not offended by what you wrote. I told my boyfriend I'm done with him. I will try to do better next time.
 
Glad to hear you decided to do something about and broke up with the BF.

What are your plans to address the "relationship skills" and the "self esteem" areas? Becoming more "assertive" in negotiating the terms of a relationship so you get a voice in it like you want?

Those things don't have to "go against" your personality any more than learning any other skill does. It's just... learning a skill.

Galagirl
 
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Leelee,

I'm easygoing, I like to make people happy,

I see so much of myself in that we both are givers we both want to make people happy. I too am divorced and never want to go back to a pattern of horrible communication and unmet needs.

You have to grab the reigns of your life and start to speak up about what you'll take and what you won't. Be prepared, evolving into your new person may rock some boats in your current life. Those people who took your "easy going" nature for granted will think you've "changed". When in fact you are creating boundaries, and setting limits.

Words of advice, speak up in the beginning of any new friendships/relationships. Talk about boundaries early and directly, if the answers are unclear ask for clarification, right down to the littlest things like date nite and sleepovers. I've been there, its not good to be taken advantage of. Take it from me "It Gets Greater Later". GOOD LUCK
 
Thank you, Janelle, for the very kind words...

I am recently divorced, from an abusive husband who had a personality disorder that led him to get fired five times in the last two years of our marriage. He also wouldn't let ME work out of the home (didn't want me in "social situations with men" -- this is how he viewed work, lol!).

So in the last 2 years, I divorced him, got a demanding (but great) full-time job in the area I was trained in (I'm a lawyer), repaired all the financial problems caused by his job losses, and found a new home for me and my kids. So I have made ALOT of changes, and I feel really good about them. Figuring out how to have a say in relationships with men will be the last piece of the puzzle. I think it will help if I can learn to choose men more carefully. Controlling types of men tend to seek out women like you and me. I need to learn how to identify those men early on.

I will be rooting for you too, Janelle!!!

Galagirl -- I'm not so sure how I'm going to practice those skills with no-one to practice on. But getting rid of that boyfriend did help. He kept looking at me like I was crazy when I told him it was over. I know he was thinking "but I know you still want me". And he's right. But not on those terms. I can't remember the last time I rejected someone's terms. So I guess that's a step.

Leelee
 
I'm sorry that you had to endure abuse with your ex-husband. I am so glad you were able to leave that situation and get your life rebuilt! You are stronger than you think!

Could you call the domestic violence office in your town and ask about "healthy relationships class?" Sometimes this is offered as part of recovery. Even though you are not longer in the abusive situation with the husband, learning healthy relationship skills is something you could benefit from so you don't get sucked into another one of those relationships.

Maybe also Google?

You can do this -- take your time. Already you were able to leave the BF and walk away. That's a good thing too.

GL!
Galagirl
 
Thank you, Janelle, for the very kind words...

I am recently divorced, from an abusive husband ....
So in the last 2 years, I divorced him, got a demanding (but great) full-time job... repaired all the financial problems ... and found a new home for me and my kids. So I have made ALOT of changes, and I feel really good about them. ...getting rid of that boyfriend did help.... I rejected someone's terms. So I guess that's a step.

Leelee

Leelee.... there are 6 or more examples in the above edited quote of you taking action, standing up for yourself and your kids, and turning a HUGE corner in your life. Do keep up that good work! This thread has become one of my favorites to follow because not only have you absorbed advice and support, you've followed through and kicked ass! You were well on your way to a really good place a couple of years before this thread started and the good news just keeps coming. Abusive men operate much like sharks and seek out prey who are sending invisible signals of distress. Such distress is an irresistible attractant to both breeds. The funny thing about sharks is, when one dies in the water they release an unknown repellent quality, and other sharks completely vacate those waters and travel up to thousands of miles away. I believe abusive jackasses respond in the same way when people finally trigger themselves to make a stand.

I'm not saying kill any men or sharks, but you're building healthy habits of not sticking around to stand for abuse or mistreatment. The first one is the hardest, and you've got two under your belt. Yaaaaay!! :D
 
NutBusterX you took the words right out of my mouth...

I will still say congrats on all your successes thus far. Leaving a spouse or S/O can be dificult and takes much courage. Add to the mix children and financial difficulty and I say you kicked A##. Take credit for all the positive changes you have made. In light of a minor setback you are going in the right direction, and I applaud you.

I have found this is a great, supportive and positive site. There are some good people who will answer your questions and assist you as you navigate your relationships. Best of luck as always!
 
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