Primary/Secondary: Merged Threads, General Discussion / Debate

Wanting to date you when you have a kid gives someone the opportunity to have a kid in their life.

Great point RolyPoly! I think it comes down to what you are committing to when you enter a relationship with someone who has a family. I have the ability due to my location and personal circumstances to commit extensively. I'm not only committing to Redpepper, I am committing to the health and prosperity of her family, my family. I enjoy my time with all the members of my chosen family as a group and individually.

It's an honour to be asked for my input and help with Redpepper's son. I was once a pretty good dad, I can use that to help out when asked and wanted.
:)
 
I like to devote my time entirely to a person and since I have had a child I haven't been able to do that. Its getting better as he gets older and does his own thing more, but yesterday was a reminder of how sometimes I am not able to give what I feel someone deserves. I understand that they just have to accept that, I just personally struggle with it sometimes.
 
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I would suggest that anyone wanting to date someone with a child take that into consideration... it isn't a prescription, it just is. Those little people, by their very nature, are demanding. They are the captains of the ship in many ways and within certain limits, mixed with the whole having to be responsible for them bit.

I would suggest that people stop making the assumption that prospective partners are the kind of people who don't already take into account the kind of commitment a child requires. Because unless a person has a habit of getting involved with jerks, most prospective partners are generally going to know these things and it isn't a magic knowledge that belongs only to those people who have children. And it's pretty insulting to be continually treated like a person who needs to be told this since it's kind of filed under "should be obvious" for a great deal of the population. And for those for whom it isn't, I probably would get the clue pretty quickly that they are not someone who I would bother getting involved with.

That's the point that has been repeatedly made throughout this thread, yet again people feel the need to point out the obvious- that children are an important consideration in any relationship. NOBODY is disputing that and that has been said REPEATEDLY throughout this. The issues that have been brought up are hurtful and real situations that are faced by people and yet people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made.

So if you're talking about simply knowing that your child is the most important factor in your life when making relationship decisions and creates natural limits that everyone has to work with, the issues that are being raised are not about you or the fact that kids are important and naturally create boundaries and limits.
 
I'm thinking that if someone is that concerned about potential partners fucking up the situation with the kid(s), they should probably not date at all until the kids are grown, or at least old enough to stand up for themselves.

And before someone accuses that of being an "age-ist" remark - no, I don't think it would be the SAME AGE for every child. However, I do think it's important to not place the burden on a child of making adult decisions prematurely. So I would say that a kid becomes "old enough to stand up for itself" somewhere between the ages of 10 and 16. But no, I didn't invent the world and I wasn't handed this age range on stone tablets by a burning bush on top of a mountain in the desert.

Sheesh.
 
I would suggest that people stop making the assumption that prospective partners are the kind of people who don't already take into account the kind of commitment a child requires. Because unless a person has a habit of getting involved with jerks, most prospective partners are generally going to know these things and it isn't a magic knowledge that belongs only to those people who have children. And it's pretty insulting to be continually treated like a person who needs to be told this since it's kind of filed under "should be obvious" for a great deal of the population. And for those for whom it isn't, I probably would get the clue pretty quickly that they are not someone who I would bother getting involved with.

That's the point that has been repeatedly made throughout this thread, yet again people feel the need to point out the obvious- that children are an important consideration in any relationship. NOBODY is disputing that and that has been said REPEATEDLY throughout this. The issues that have been brought up are hurtful and real situations that are faced by people and yet people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made.

So if you're talking about simply knowing that your child is the most important factor in your life when making relationship decisions and creates natural limits that everyone has to work with, the issues that are being raised are not about you or the fact that kids are important and naturally create boundaries and limits.

Okay, I'm confused. The whole, kids are important thing might be obvious to you but it isn't always to others who are looking for a partnership. I have had people decide not to consider me because I have a child. That is their choice and I respect them for it.

I don't make assumptions when I enter a relationship with a person about anything really. I just wait and see and find out what they are like, what they want to know about us and how we could all fit together. It really has little do with my boy at the beginning. He comes in later. How someone feels about him being our responsibility is part and parcel to all of it. He is who we are. We move towards encompassing how a potential partner will change that and us them, if that is the roll they and we decide will work for us all. Like adding ingredients to soup, not like putting a bread roll beside the soup.

I am not sure why you are feeling insulted. If this is all obvious to you then maybe I am not talking to you and talking to someone who is now saying in their mind, "ohhhhh, okay, I get it." In essense, I think I am giving them that "clue" by talking about it.

Okay, what does this mean? "The issues that have been brought up are hurtful and real situations that are faced by people and yet people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made."

What are the issues that are hurtful, what are the real situations, what is it that is being ignored? the part where you say, "people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made," what do you mean....? did I miss a thread or something, cause I was not aware that I personally was ignoring something, I have been simply telling my story and thoughts. If that is in someway insulting then I would like to know how,.... I invite you to explain what you mean by the above Ceoli, because I don't wish to be insulting, and hurtful. I wish to understand.
 
Okay, I'm confused. The whole, kids are important thing might be obvious to you but it isn't always to others who are looking for a partnership. I have had people decide not to consider me because I have a child. That is their choice and I respect them for it.

How is not considering you evidence of not being aware of the importance of kids? It might suggest that they DO know how important kids are and would prefer to have a partner where they don't have to defer to that.

I am not sure why you are feeling insulted. If this is all obvious to you then maybe I am not talking to you and talking to someone who is now saying in their mind, "ohhhhh, okay, I get it." In essense, I think I am giving them that "clue" by talking about it.

The insult is twofold. In general, it's insulting to be considered that way by a prospective partner. Also, the insult in general on this thread is that it has been REPEATEDLY said that it's not about being unaware of the importance of children yet people still seem to continually bring it up in this thread as if it hasn't already been addressed multiple times.

Okay, what does this mean? "The issues that have been brought up are hurtful and real situations that are faced by people and yet people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made."

There are people who have been treated like shit by partnered poly people. In fact, it happens quite often if you're a single poly person looking for poly relationships with people who already have partners and it sucks. And what sucks more is that most people tend to justify that it's ok to treat unpartnered or prospective new partners like that because of the kids or the family or the marriage or the primary relationship etc. To be told that it's ok to be treated like a second class citizen is hurtful and is often perpetrated by people who choose to practice poly in this manner. Sure, it's their poly and works for them. And as long as you don't have to consider the hurtful consequences that it holds for other people then that's fine.


What are the issues that are hurtful, what are the real situations, what is it that is being ignored? the part where you say, "people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made," what do you mean....? did I miss a thread or something, cause I was not aware that I personally was ignoring something, I have been simply telling my story and thoughts. If that is in someway insulting then I would like to know how,.... I invite you to explain what you mean by the above Ceoli, because I don't wish to be insulting, and hurtful. I wish to understand.

If you really want to understand, I suggest you read Joreth's post in her LJ about it because she's pretty clear about exactly what is hurtful about such arrangements. And yes she throws a tantrum about it because it's her journal to do that with and she fully acknowledges it. If you don't want to read it, I'll cut and paste the relevant bits for you, but honestly, she says it very well.
 
There are people who have been treated like shit by partnered poly people. In fact, it happens quite often if you're a single poly person looking for poly relationships with people who already have partners and it sucks. And what sucks more is that most people tend to justify that it's ok to treat unpartnered or prospective new partners like that because of the kids or the family or the marriage or the primary relationship etc. To be told that it's ok to be treated like a second class citizen is hurtful and is often perpetrated by people who choose to practice poly in this manner. Sure, it's their poly and works for them. And as long as you don't have to consider the hurtful consequences that it holds for other people then that's fine.


I realize that this does go on, but I see it as the problem of the people doing the hurtful behaviours. If I were a single person who had been treated poorly by a partner who is in a "primary" relationship, I'd FEEL hurt, but my friends and the logical side of my brain would say "It is not YOU with the problem, you can't FORCE people to not be assholes." I have been treated poorly in one-on-one dating relationships (I was going to say "monogamous", but just because neither party is seriously involved with someone else doesn't mean the relationship is monogamous in nature) and I don't consider it something that I need to fix for the other people that might date that person someday.

Once again, I see this as something that falls under the old "mono and poly relationships are no different except for the number of people involved". If you dated an unpartnered person and they didn't treat you with the kind of respect you'd expect, how is that any different from being disrespected by a pre-partnered person? It's not ok for a single, divorced parent to treat someone like shit in the name of "protecting the children" so I guess I don't see how this is really a "poly" issue.


I would venture that if a "poly-couple" is into making prescriptive rules to protect their "primary" relationship, that A) maybe they're not ready to practice a poly lifestyle and B) they are not someone I'd want to involve myself with on that level.

Why are these things not obvious to everyone?
 
I realize that this does go on, but I see it as the problem of the people doing the hurtful behaviours. If I were a single person who had been treated poorly by a partner who is in a "primary" relationship, I'd FEEL hurt, but my friends and the logical side of my brain would say "It is not YOU with the problem, you can't FORCE people to not be assholes." I have been treated poorly in one-on-one dating relationships (I was going to say "monogamous", but just because neither party is seriously involved with someone else doesn't mean the relationship is monogamous in nature) and I don't consider it something that I need to fix for the other people that might date that person someday.

I agree with that, which is why it baffles me that when points like this are made there are ALWAYS quite a few people (if I had any statistics on it, I'd venture to say the majority, but I don't) that come rushing to the defense of such hurtful practices as "necessary" or "a stepping stone" or "it just has to be this way" or "MY poly isn't YOUR poly".

Fine. It doesn't change the fact that such practices are hurtful to others. If people like it that way then fine. And yes, I won't be getting involved with people like that. For a long time, I thought that was my only choice in poly relationships. I'm very glad and relieved to have learned that this doesn't have to be the case.
 
I think its all about learning really. I think you hit the nail on the head with that. I think its important to take a look at relationships when they don't work out and learn. Then move on and chalk it all up to experience and hope that those involved will learn to.
 
I think its all about learning really. I think you hit the nail on the head with that. I think its important to take a look at relationships when they don't work out and learn. Then move on and chalk it all up to experience and hope that those involved will learn to.

It becomes about more when huge numbers of people jump to the defense of practices that are hurtful. And it becomes even more when the people who are hurt by such practices are continually silenced in poly communities and when poly communities tacitly condone such treatment. It's more common than one would expect.
 
My kids actually are the reason I have an issue with Primary/Secondary or any other Heirarchy layout.

See-I am training them.
One of the concepts I'm trying to teach them is that Loving isn't the same as favoritism or even related.
Just because something is your favorite thing, doesn't mean you LOVE it and just because you LOVE someone doesn't mean they are the FAVORITE.

I prefer to think of it as I have a "favorite" box and all those I LOVE are in it together....

I explained to Maca today that "marriage" to me isn't what the world defines it. The world considers marriage a contract between two people. I consider marriage to be a COMMITMENT between two people. ANY two people. I consider it a commitment between myself and my child to do my best for them and love them unconditionally. I consider it a commitment between myself and my parents to love each other unconditionally. I consider it a commitment between myself and my friends to be there for one another and love each other unconditionally. I consider it to be a commitment between myself and my lovers to be there for one another and to Love each other unconditionally.

I consider it MY commitment to be unconditional and stand by my commitments to others REGARDLESS of them choosing to do so.

BUT-if I want to teach my children not to play "favorites" in the way they treat those they love, then I need to SHOW them that behavior, not tell them about it.

Therefore it's very important to me that I not use primary/secondary status with Maca and GG. Because the truth is that I love both of them with no conditions and I don't believe that Love ends and I don't believe that one or the other will stop being important if they leave, I will still love them....
 
I think I'm starting to see where both "schools" see eye-to-eye...

It's just like that whole "poly relationships are just like mono relationships, but with more people" thing.

The concerns the poly parents here are describing echo what any monogamous "good parent" would say when looking for partners. They don't tend to get together with the other parent and decide a-priori what future relationships will be like, when they'll date or whether they're "allowed" to fall in love. But when someone does come along, if one parent has a concern about whether that new boyfriend is a good influence on their child or if they're distracting the parent so much that the child starts to feel neglected, they tend to bring it up.

To that end, my step-daughter's monogamous mom recently "dumped" (daughter's words, not ours) her at our house for the weekend so that her new boyfriend could come spend some time without the kids around. But she brought her to our city, 1 1/2 hours away from where she lives, for a "shopping" trip and then told her when she was here that she had to go to her dad's for the night, no toothbrush or pajamas... This is meant to illustrate that none of the issues brought up by parents here are unique to polyamory, they apply any time any parent is dating anyone, and monos can fuck it up just as bad as we can. At least if one parent of a poly relationship gets a little bit lovestruck and distracted for a while, there's another parent living there full-time who's on top of it and looking out for the kid. Meanwhile, my step-daughter is feeling completely neglected and abandoned, and there's not much we can do because she doesn't want to live with us. And her mom never listens to us when we voice our concerns, she tells us to mind our own business (as if the daughter wasn't "our business".) But if she were our partner, she would "have to" listen to us :p

So as far as kids are concerned, and "making rules" to prescribe how new relationships will look: I can see how that would be a problem and bother new potential partners. And as was said previously, if a new partner is a genuine "cause for concern" in that they may try to come between the existing partners, or may be negative influences on the kids, and if the partner dating them is too caught up in the moment to see that, then all the rules in the world won't mean bubkiss. But if the relationship is healthy and there are good lines of communication, then formal rules are unnessesary.

For example, I somewhat doubt that redpepper ever sat down with mono and explicitly said "look, I have a kid, and if he ever needs me, I may have to cancel our date." Maybe she did, but mono seems like a very reasonable and responsible person, and I just don't think it was necessary to say that. And if she did say it just to make sure, then I'm sure he said "well obviously!"
 
For example, I somewhat doubt that redpepper ever sat down with mono and explicitly said "look, I have a kid, and if he ever needs me, I may have to cancel our date." Maybe she did, but mono seems like a very reasonable and responsible person, and I just don't think it was necessary to say that. And if she did say it just to make sure, then I'm sure he said "well obviously!"

Right you are SchrodingersCat! I also have a 16 year old daughter so I've been there.
 
Mono you are too damn fast. :)
I read that and was SO ready to write a smart ass reply. (in a good way guys not a bad way). :D

I was trying to PICTURE a conversation between you two along those lines and it brought me a fresh (and much needed) giggle!

I never said a word to GG about it when we met, it was just reality and he picked up on how it went as he hung around.

My oldest daughter was SO accident prone. The number of times I ran out of work to meet her caretaker and her at the E.R. or ran out of the house rushing her to the E.R. UGH-we were just talking about that the other night!!

But no, nothing was laid out in a list of "rules". I think in some ways we're arguing semantics of terminology. When I say it's a rule for me, and for my relationships that my kids come first, it's kind of like saying "what goes up must come down" is the RULE of gravity. We don't have to agree to it, write it down or any of that, it's just the way it is.

Someone doesn't have to agree with my rule, but if they don't, they will leave me, because it's the "rule of LR's life"... just like "what goes up must come down" is "the rule of gravity".

;)
 
I'm feeling a little hurt by this assumption that I would somehow have rules for partners around my child. I need to be loved and like nothing more than to share that with several people. Why would I want to constrict that by setting rules and making assumptions that people do things my way.

I am sorry if people have been hurt by couples that are parents that have set rules excluding people. Rules such as primary/secondary. I would wonder what the purpose would be in doing that and assume that they were thinking it might work better for their children. Maybe they were right and maybe they were wrong for them and those involved. I would think that would become evident to them and whomever was involved. That hurt can sometimes last a life time if it didn't work out and if a person continues to gain some kind of benefit by playing the victim.

To put it on others that weren't involved is unfair to me and perpetuates that hurt and pain. Now I think it is put on me and other parents who have and/or want other partners in their lives. We are not the ones that caused that hurt. Someone else did that. Yes I agree that couples with kids have to be careful with their intentions. We have talked about that a million times on here and it still comes up. The thing is, everyone has to start somewhere and that should be respected.

Its our job I think, to respectfully educate and engage others by using examples from our own lives and that of others. Not immediately disagree and bombard them with anger over our pain and hurt. It has made me feel disrespected and hurt. I am not wanting to write anything and certainly haven't learned anything. I just feel defensive and hurt. I would like to feel engaged, thoughtful about peoples experiences and respected for where I am at in my own journey about parenting and relationship juggling. I like to think I do my best to meet people where they are at, I expect that same respect.
 
I like to devote my time entirely to a person and since I have had a child I haven't been able to do that. Its getting better as he gets older and does his own thing more, but yesterday was a reminder of how sometimes I am not able to give what I feel someone deserves. I understand that they just have to accept that, I just personally struggle with it sometimes.

That makes more sense when you put it this way. I'm not sure what you mean by "yesterday", but I can see, in general, how you would feel apologetic not because you have a kid, but because you would like to give more than you actually can. I tend to devote to others as well.
 
RP-
I hope what I said wasn't hurting your feelings. I wasn't in anyway making a bad assumption about you.
In fact I was trying to imagine the conversation as suggested and found the whole idea so hysterical I couldn't do it.
Primarily because neither of you strike me as the type to have the need for THAT type of conversation.
Anyway-xoxooxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

LR
 
I'm feeling a little hurt by this assumption that I would somehow have rules for partners around my child. I need to be loved and like nothing more than to share that with several people. Why would I want to constrict that by setting rules and making assumptions that people do things my way.

Nobody to my knowledge is making assumptions about you specifically. You brought up the subject with posting about Franklin's post and everybody- yourself, myself and everyone else- is coming at the discussion from their own hard earned experiences.

Its our job I think, to respectfully educate and engage others by using examples from our own lives and that of others. Not immediately disagree and bombard them with anger over our pain and hurt. It has made me feel disrespected and hurt. I am not wanting to write anything and certainly haven't learned anything. I just feel defensive and hurt. I would like to feel engaged, thoughtful about peoples experiences and respected for where I am at in my own journey about parenting and relationship juggling. I like to think I do my best to meet people where they are at, I expect that same respect.

I think it's also our job to be honest about when certain actions or ways of relating create hurtful consequences for others.

You have certainly bombarded others with anger when you have felt hurt over what somebody says, often when it's not even about you. You're not the only person struggling and it would be very hard to have any conversations if people aren't allowed to express their hurt and anger, especially since it's been repeatedly said that if you're not one of the people who do the things that are hurtful, then the people expressing the hurt and anger are not talking about you. I'm sorry to be blunt about this, but I'm honestly having a hard time understanding how expecting others to be less than honest about their own feelings is respectful. It's not something that's healthy to do in any relationship.
 
I'm sorry to be blunt about this, but I'm honestly having a hard time understanding how expecting others to be less than honest about their own feelings is respectful. It's not something that's healthy to do in any relationship.

You're right, I certainly have gotten angry with people on these forums. I have room for people being angry with situations on here and even with me, but when that anger continues and becomes directed towards me in terms of *chalking me up to something that they assume is me*, I have a hard time with that.

I may get angry with people, but I still do my best to find a way to meet them where they are at.... eventually. I am getting better with that the longer I hang out here. I used to blow up at everyone on here as they pushed my idea of what I thought poly was. I have learned that what my experience is is just different and unique to me... I am learning and we all are learning. All I ask is that there be respect and patience for that. As I am doing my best to do the same.
 
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