We're THIS close to giving up on poly altogether.

I posted a thread in which I said that after the latest failure, the one that failed despite having all the right ingredients, I am disillusioned on the subject of poly. Everything else came after.

I didn't realize that liars and cheaters were among "all the right ingredients."

Your post reminds me of some jaded friends I've had, who have gone through painful and messy break-ups, and in the process sworn off dating forever. Inevitably, the pain heals and they get back in the game.

But in the meantime, it's very healthy for them to be single and focus on themselves for the time being. I see no reason why that can't extend to poly, with you and your partner focusing on yourselves and your relationship.

I have some impressions about how you communicate and accept criticism based on how you've responded in this and other threads. The way you leave out important details under the guise of making a long story short feels to me more like I'm being manipulated into seeing your life the way you want me to see it. Then giving just the details that reinforce your case makes me suspect there's more you're leaving out because it's inconvenient.

My conclusion is that, while it's convenient to call these women crazy bitches who behave like 10 year olds, I suspect you are not free of blame. And since like attracts like, it's reasonable to assume that your partner also had her role to play in all this.

Since you can't change anything that happened, the best thing you can do right now is take a good look at yourself and your own role in all this. Be brutally honest and admit your mistakes. Think about what you could have done differently.
 
It's no secret that I'm open about the blatant favoritism and hypocrisy among members, mods, admins, whatever here. It's sad and frankly way out of line with what this site is supposed to be about. Being one who has - on more than one occasion - come here for the support this community is supposed to be all about and which I have always tried to offer and been shit on for it, often in ways which really should have resulted in "consequences" for others and did NOT, my points are not always appreciated.

I don't see the favortism or hypocrisy, so it's obviously not blatant.

My mother in law always claimed, and meant it, that she wasn't the one with the problem, it was everyone else.

I've never understood how people can legitimately believe that.

I mean, the rest of the world seems to get along reasonably well with each other. So do these people think that we're all conspiring against them, deliberately trying to ruin their lives? I assure you, we are not.

In other threads not involving destructive individuals, we don't see these pissing contests and personal attacks. So did we all just get together and decide that you'd be our punching bag? Or is it possible that you deliberately provoke people, and that that's your own damn fault?

No where have I seen you accept one iota of responsibility for anything that has happened in your life. It was this girl's fault or that girl's fault, these people on the forum said such and such mean things, or those moderators are out to get you. But so far in this thread, I've seen you be rude and offensive and blatantly refuse to listen to reasonable arguments just because they don't match your world view.

Seriously, if this forum is so unsupportive, so full of favouritism and discrimination, why are you still here? In my experience, when people are not having their needs met by a particular group of people, the reasonable thing to do is find a different group of people. Oh wait, now you're going to say that every forum is full of jerks like us. Because the problem's not you, it's all of us...
 
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L'dMAO at damn near all of this; 'nuf said.

I will comment on the last bit though. I have been who I am for a relatively short period of time. I spent a LOT of time becoming who I am, and paying attention to being the kind of person I want to be. For you to ASS U ME that you know ANYTHING AT ALL about me from a few posts here spanning a very narrow subject and barely skimming the surface of said subject much less... Well, ANYTHING, really... Is... Well, too damned funny to actually even be offensive, LOL.

If people don't know enough about you to comment, it's because YOU didn't give them the information.

If you didn't give them enough information to comment, then how did you ever expect to get any help, and therefore why bother posting in the first place?
 
I have never claimed there was nothing wrong with me, or that I am free of blame. Ever. I am still waiting, however, for the day that somebody on these boards doesn't immediately respond with something to the effect that I'm the problem and a terrible person on general or some similar vein.

I'm in a familiar place in my rant, am I? Funny; I find myself in a remarkably familiar place in a thread on polyamory.com.

I have only asked, for a long time now, dating back to the old threads, that people - anyone - recognize that I was, in fact, coming here for support. Back then, I tried to get points across, felt attacked, responded sometimes poorly. And it got worse from there. Is it any surprise, given what followed, that my posts since have been less than rainbows & fucking sunshine?

And now more accusations. "leaving out information under the guise of summerizing" to paraphrase one. Manipulating the stories. Of course, I MUST be the only one in the history of these boards to tell things from *gasp* MY POINT OF VIEW..?! Oh dear...

But of course, it's fine to conjecture about what I did wrong, what that girl must have been thinking or feeling... ANYTHING but consider why I might be feeling the way I do.

There are certain types who get unlimited support here. Women who feel put upon or diminished in their relationships being the obvious and over-represented group. If you don't fall into one of the "OMG we FEEL your pain" classes, you're questioned and doubted and ANYTHING but supported. This is by NO means limited to me.

The OP in this thread had the tone it did because of past experience here. Same with my replies. This also contributed to my "summarizing". Why I posted here... Couldn't tell you. I probably should have learned by now. Maybe I hoped things had changed at least a little.

My bad.
 
I have never claimed there was nothing wrong with me, or that I am free of blame. Ever.

A clever but familiar disarming tactic, now you are free to commence with the next defensive statement!

I am still waiting, however, for the day that somebody on these boards doesn't immediately respond with something to the effect that I'm the problem and a terrible person on general or some similar vein.

As pointed out above and in the same paragraph! It seems most here are more than willing to offer help...much emotional support too but you won't suffer either at the cost of peacefully accepting the suggestion that you need to look at yourself as carefully as you are willing to look at/blame others.

As I and others have mentioned it appears you didn't come in here for help, that really no longer matters. You have made it clear that no help will be accepted and I'm done responding here.
 
I have never claimed there was nothing wrong with me, or that I am free of blame. Ever. I am still waiting, however, for the day that somebody on these boards doesn't immediately respond with something to the effect that I'm the problem and a terrible person on general or some similar vein.

I'm sorry, HMA, that things have been so hard and that partners have not lived up to their word. I certainly get why you are pulling back from poly.

I'm sorry this was such a terrible experience for you, but this doesn't mean you should give up on poly relationships if you really enjoy them. It wasn't polyamory's fault that this woman lied. A red flag is a quiet person who can't open up. If you find someone in your life whom you have to "brow beat" to talk, acknowledge that warning.

As hard as it may be, this is a perfect opportunity to better yourself. What signs did you miss that would have helped you see this person had some real emotional dysfunctions before getting with her? How are you dealing with the pain? Are you allowing yourself to feel the pain and to work through it? Do you feel guilty in any way? Why?

From the sounds of it, you aren't the one at fault, and I certainly hope any guilt you may feel goes away quickly. Don't let her very obvious problems with herself interfere with your choices to love in whatever manner you feel is right for you. Take some time, treat yourself with love and kindness, cry on someone's shoulder a bit, and remember who you are.

Sorry to hear thing imploded. It almost sounds like Lana needs to be evaluated for possible depression and/or other mental or substance issuses (just my personal opinion). Unfortunately, I've seen this before, some people don't handle things well when they want out of a relationship. Instead of just breaking up with their partner, they feel the need to make themselves appear a victim and things tend to go viral, leaving those they claimed to have loved asking WTF.

There's nothing wrong with taking some time to step back and just concentrate on you and Violet for a while. Lets face it you guys have had some really hard blows this last year. Having identified as poly in the past it's very likely you may find your self facing it again in the future, just try not to move them in:p.

Sounds like it's a good time for you and Violet just to focus on the two of you for a while. Maybe there is poly in your future and maybe there isn't. I hear that you're really upset with the whole poly thing at the moment but it might not be time to write it off all together. You've said that you know that you're capable of loving more than one person intensely at a time. I wager that all of the relationships you've had up until now have been to prepare you for what life if going to throw your way next.

Just a reminder that not everyone on this thread has jumped down your throat and told you that you are in the wrong. I don't think any of us are agreed with 100% of the time by everyone in what we do and say here. The people on this forum are from such diverse backgrounds that you're bound to get a mixed bag when you open a dialogue here. If you're looking for 100% validation you're probably better off talking to a group of close friends rather than a group of complete strangers. Maybe it would help to focus on the positives and stop engaging in the negatives.
 
I believe in poly - academically. Poly is real and good, but people can't really do it no matter what they say. Social conditioning or whatever - everyone we know that is in poly has had horrible experience after horrible experience when all is said and done. We'll still play with others sexually I'm sure - we're both wired that way for sure, and THOSE relationships have never burned us. But this devotion to multiple partners does not work.

People hide things, even from themselves, build resentment, feel bad, etc. And when they know it's all about communication and think they're feelings aren't valid - they bury them and it gets worse. We've seen it 3 times now 1st hand and dozens of times with others we know.

It makes for good books, and bad relationships.

I had glanced at this thread and was thinking about popping in with some sympathy and support. But then you posted this, saying that people can't do poly no matter what they say, that devoting yourself to multiple partners does not work, that people who thinks it's working are basically deluding themselves, and that poly makes for bad relationships. And all I could feel at that point was offended and insulted.

So I responded to that part instead, thinking that maybe you would say something along the lines of "Oh, ok, even though I may be feeling this way right now, it's not really fair or cool of me to come to a place where people are pouring their hearts out to make poly work in their lives and to support each other in the belief that their lives ARE valid and real and workable and tell them that it's all crap and they're just lying to themselves if they think it's working because it didn't work for me." And instead, you ignored me and went on to say how it was a nice idea "But no - it doesn't work in reality, not in this society."

Tell that to these folks who are in the 17th year of their triad: http://polyinthemedia.blogspot.com/2012/01/all-polyfamily-warmth-and-cuddles-on.html

So, yeah, that's how you lost one potential source of support on this site. I just can't stand it when people make extreme, negative statements that don't match up with the facts and then refuse to amend any sort of caveat such as "it doesn't seem to *often* work" or "I know this isn't *always* true, but" or something like that. It's just so insensitive to the folks here who have built their lives around poly to make blanket statements like that.
 
I propose a little exercise. Just for fucking shits & giggles. I wonder if ya'll can manage it.

Let's imagine - and I realize that this is WAAAY out there for most of you, that I am NOT, in fact, an ignorant, narcissistic, womanizing asshole who lacks any self awareness or comprehension of basic introspection. Let's PRETEND that I'm a pretty damn smart, considerate, compassionate person, who has spent many many years perfecting the art of introspection and self awareness, and works very hard to overcome his issues. There are still flaws here, but let's even take the DRASTIC step of pretending I know that!

Now - since this is the land of fucking make-believe, let's ALSO pretend that I wasn't always the one in the wrong when things went south with our relationships. Let's say that poly in general was Violet's idea. I even resisted the idea of outside interests for months; sexually or otherwise. Let's say she introduced me to this fucking website for fuck's sake. Let's PRETEND that when other girls showed interest, she was supportive of the idea and often even pushed us forward! Let's even be specific:

Let's PRETEND that when Anne joined our relationship, that I busted my ass to make everyone involved happy & comfortable. Let's PRETEND that Violet discovered some insecurities & pulled some manipulative crap, and that Anne & I tried to work with her on them so we could all get where we said we wanted to go with all this, and that Violet was all for it. Let's PRETEND that when it seemed as though things were going to turn the corner, Anne was caught lying & cheating, and that that's what ended it all.

Let's PRETEND that several months later, Violet approaches me with the idea of trying this again, or at least being open to the idea. Let's PRETEND that hours and hours and hours over the course of weeks later, we decide it's okay to consider it.

And in pretend land, Lana drops her bomb, after almost two years of knowing us and a year of introspection and thought and not dating while she figured herself out, she wanted to be with us. And there was much rejoicing. But not sex, and not a lot of other things, because we moved slow with Lana.

So now we can pretend that when Adrianne came along, everyone was in a state of much joy & hope, and that she & I were pretty much fuck buddies, but she spent a LOT of time at our house & the girls just GUSHED about how adorable we were together and on and on. She liked them too. Everyone jsut sort of looked at each other & said "sure, why not?" Because in PRETEND LAND, it was in fact the three girls that really motivated it. Together.

See, this is where we PRETEND that HMA wasn't living out a harem fantasy; that he didn't go looking for this. I know that's a reach, but c'mon, this is PRETEND LAND.

Then, even in pretend land, it all hit the fan. Turns out Lana & Adrianna didn't like each other much. Turns out Violet would take Lana's back even when she knew she was wrong. In this PRETEND world, they even conspired against Adrianne & did some seriously messed up shit (that they finally admitted to about 6 months after she was gone, and tat's not pretend).

But remember that this is all just in pretend land, 'cuz in the real world they were all victims & I'm a self deluding asshole, as if any of you could forget THAT!

Now, in this pretend world, when all this goes down, I spend every day miserable and torn between 3 women who all made certain commitments to each other as well as to me. They ALL come to ME to settle their petty crap - meaning I have to choose who to side with about 80 times a day, and there is never a right choice.

In PRETEND WORLD, I try and try and try to broker peace and help everyone find a place where they can cooperate and be happy. Because in pretend world, I give a fuck about the women I claim to love. I make lots of mistakes. Hell, in most of the situations there probably isn't a non-mistake to be made. But yes - I also lose my temper a lot & cave to the stress often.

Now - somewhere in here, I came to this website for some support. And so did Violet. And just about everyone immediately took Violet's side and/or told me everything I was doing wrong (cuz you know, they were here & all). In this, the real world, Violet got tons and tons of sympathy while I get called names and accused of shit. Even when she later confessed to lying and changing her story. Even when she admitted to the manipulative behaviors. People excused her, said she was just trying to find her place - and TORE INTO ME. And you wonder why I'm bitter?

So, back to pretend world.

In this pretend world where I'm a decent guy trying to be sensitive to the needs of the women who have chosen to be with me and for which and whom I am grateful, I dedicate myself to making things work with Lana & Violet, finally let go of Adrianne when I get an out in the form of catching her lying to and about another guy, and shit goes down.

But in pretend world, I remained supportive of the other two girls despite knowing they had worked against her and hurt her and me. I put that aside and committed myself to the women who had been with me for a couple of years by now. Because in pretend world, I'm very self aware and take a long view of things, and will spend hours in my own head to sort priorities and decide where I need to give in or compromise.

Just in pretend world of course, you are all pretty fucking positive that that ain't reality! I know this, because in the real world, I came back here again & started a thread because I was deeply hurt & depressed about the last and final failure in this story. And surprise surprise - a few people see it for what it is, me being hurt and sad & depressed - and the rest jump up my ass yet again.

JUST what I needed, thanks.

Why can't I just be venting my feelings - like so many others do here? Why can't I just be coming to a place where people who have some idea of what a breakup in a poly relationship is like will lend an ear and maybe a kind word? Why is it so hard for anyone here to accept anything I say at face value and work from there? That's the point of the whole "pretend world" thing - I hope some of you got it. Everything I have posted since the Anne issue has resulted in threads like this one with responses like these. And you wonder why I'm bitter and defensive?! REALLY?!

Since you all LOVE picking my shit apart so much, go back to my old posts. Pre-triad drama. Notice the difference between then & after half the board did just what they're doing here & now.

Derby - I can post hundreds of links to examples of happy marriages that failed at the 40 or even 50 year mark. What's your point?

I am not the only one here to get discouraged and upset about poly. I AM, for some reason, the site punching bag when I have a problem. SO many of you are so happy to pick my posts apart, look for places where you think I am being deceptive or God knows what.

Anyone can pick apart quotes and put them in context. That's how tabloids make their living.

How about instead, people consider that I'm a decent person looking for some support and sympathy? Why is it automatically assumed that I haven't looked at myself in these situations, or that I'm the one manipulating, or that I refuse to listen to advice? Seriosuly - what the FUCK is wrong with you people on that note? You do it for others,. All the time. You did it for Violet. A lot.

I guess you're right. No point in my being here.

My bad.
 
But you're not bitter or anything.

I don't remember much of the details from your earlier threads. I recall much drama though, which is not unusual on this forum.

You and your partners do seem to be in a different day, same shit pattern. If all or most of your relationships flame out in similar ways, then pay attention.

No one is saying that you are not a decent person who wants the best for his loved ones. Also your partners are of course responsible for their stuff. Lana sounds like she is busily building her own personal hell.

Try to let the defensiveness and bitterness go. Yes, you have reason. But they don't serve you well and only hurt you.
 
I use the term 'self-fulfilling prophecy' in reference to your experience on the forum specifically. I joined around the time the original threads mentioned were wrapping up. So I have as good a reference as any here. Based on what you've posted, it seems that in some way, likely unconsciously, you enter the interaction believing that you will be mistreated and unhappy and then act in such a way to likely to provoke others into reacting negatively towards you. Thus the prophecy is fulfilled. This is a sociological term and it's used in many disciplines such as education, psych and all that jazz.

Merton the famous sociologist defines it as such:

"The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning."

Obviously, there's room here for others to have genuinely wronged you and it's not really my job to hash all that out on either side. My point simply is that it's easy to shoot ourselves in the foot. To be honest, I've found your posts to be negative in general and have found it difficult to feel like I can say anything to you without being sneered at and told I don't have all the facts. You come off as being somewhat manipulative and whiny. A lot of us aren't 'biased' against you. We've interacted with you/your posts and made our own evaluations. It's not like after you left we sat around and talked about you all day....

I'm sure you'll come up with some reason why I'm full of shit and frankly, I don't give a flying fig newton. HMA, if someday, you can learn to play nicely on here (read honest, yet civil, gasp, even kind), then I'd be happy to get to know you/talk with you/etc...
 
I wasn't intending to come across as putting all the blame on you.

What I objected to was your stance that everything was Lana's fault and that she's 100% to blame for all the shit that went down. In human relationships, nothing is ever 100% one person's fault. I probably didn't phrase that as well as I could have. My bad.

There will always be other Lanas, either romantically, socially, or professionally. You can't change that. What you can change is the way you deal with those people.

You will never be able to control how other people behave. All you can control is how you behave. So if the way you behaved in this relationship did not work out so well, is it at least possible that behaving a different way might have a different outcome?

Can you honestly say that you made no mistakes in all of this? Because if so, then damn, you must be the only perfect person on the planet. But realistically, you're probably human, and humans make mistakes. Now, clever humans learn from their mistakes and try to avoid repeating them. Other humans blame their circumstances on other people and keep repeating the same mistakes over and over, expecting different outcomes.
 
I think yes, you and your remaining partner should focus on each other perhaps forever. I don't think you're an awful person and I don't care that some of your relationships have structured to look like something people could toss the word harem around to describe. You're going to try to make something work and through that make mistakes. So will the people you're involved with. There is mention of manipulation and conspiracy among some of your partners against others and the one you remain with is one of the people who made that mistake. Till she can find a way to refrain from that it is quite possible that adding people to the relationship you have with her is going to continue to be problematic.
Maybe some long talks between the two of you to find out what caused her to gather one member to her against another can help. You may even find your mistakes in that talk. It seems to me if there was someone she could gather to her in that way to work against another, that person who was willing to do that might well do the same with someone outside the relationship against the two of you. That is pretty much what ended up happening right? Yes it was in the form of lies and cheating, but the same dynamic is there. You might get some insight to Lana's motives by asking what motivated Violet to do so with Lana against Adrianne.
And yes, in the end you may have to decide that being with Violet means being only with Violet or that if you want to be poly, you can't be so with Violet.
 
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