A few questions from a concerned monogamist husband...

I met my wife about 5 1/2 years ago. She located me via a social website, we met, and started our relationship almost immediately. In our earlier days, she introduced me to a man she was friends with, and though I could sense some form of an attraction between the two of them, she was with me, and he was married, though Poly. He and I did become friends, albeit more like acquaintances with the limits amount of time we would be in each other's presence. He respected me for the way I treated my (future) wife, and we did talk on the occasion.

After dating for 2 years, my wife and I got engaged, and then married a year later. During this time, he had a bitter divorce, a change in career, and was in a new relationship, but we rarely if ever talked much. She attempted to call him once or twice, and when she reached his estranged wife, we had gotten an ear full, and eventually, his new number. His life wasn't where he had hoped for it to be, but we were supportive and let him know if he needed anything, to simply ask.

After our wedding (which this man did not attend, though invited), we spoke again on the occasion once his life had settled some. He had a new girlfriend, one that was supportive of his Poly lifestyle, and shared in it as well. Both my wife and I were glad to hear things were looking better for him, and would talk with him more as time permitted.

My wife and I during all of this have had a very happy and wonderful relationship, even thru all of the progressions it had taken, and our marriage was always based on openness and honesty, we would never hide anything from each other, and we communicated about every decision.

We, like most couples, had our share of ups and downs, especially with the economic turmoil of recent years. Our current situation is heavily stressful on my wife, and we are attempting to take steps to help to alleviate a great deal of it from her. Her outlook of things as they stand are grim at best, but I am supportive to her and try to reassure her that things will get better with time and the steps we are taking.

With the added stresses she has had lately, her more deeper rooted self esteem issues have been constantly bothering her as well, and she had started to isolate herself about 6 months ago. Now if I want to find out any information from her about how she is feeling, I must ask her, repeatedly, until she finally breaks her silence.

She came to me 3 days after this past Christmas holiday, with a letter in her hand. It was quite earth shattering for me. What I had thought was a working and over all happy monogamist marriage was about to come to a screeching halt.

In her letter, she told me that she wanted to have a poly relationship with this man. Unlike most of the posts that I've read here, and on other sites about couples discussing what a move to poly would do for their relationships, and how they could benefit from it, I was not so fortunate. The two of them had been talking for the past few months, on a more regular basis (i.e. daily), and according to her, she discovered she had been denying her feelings for him. She told me that she would be acting on them from this point forward, that I had absolutely no say in the matter, and it was up to me to accept her for who she is.

My first reaction was like the majority of people, I was enraged. We fought, lost sleep, fought more, lost more sleep, over the next few weeks. During this time she told me of their intent of the relationship, which was a full romantic, sexual, BDSM relationship. She expressed a need to be collared by this man, and to display it while with me at our home. I asked her why she never brought such concepts up with me, and if there was any way that she would want or had want to explore it with me. Her answer I am still waiting on, and she has never given it to me.

While getting used to the concepts that have been pushed onto me, I had asked my wife to please, if at all possible, to slowly introduce me to things, and let me take one thing at a time. With so many things coming at me at once, everything was becoming so hard for me to handle, that I wasn't quite sure what to think of it all. However, part of their relationship is him pushing her to make decisions, and break down barriers.

I have asked her if she would think some form of counseling would be good for her to help her have a different perspective, and possibly help her to come to terms with how she thinks and feels. At this time, she is open to the idea of counseling, but does not want to seek it, in addition to requiring a professional that is knowledgeable in alternative lifestyle choices, as she fears a normal counselor with view poly as a damn-able point of view.

Having been with my wife for over 5 years, I can see the stress getting to her. She's torn between us both, him pushing her forward, and me holding her back. I've told her if she feels she needs to just break open and try something new it's fine, but I just want her to communicate it with me so I know to prepare myself.

He pushed her a few weeks ago, and it almost made her throw in the towel. Due to her self esteem issues, my wife has an issue with nudity and the female form. Thru her discussions with him, she thinks she may have some bi-curious feelings she may want to explore. I have told her that if she feels the need to explore these feelings, I will support her in any way I can. However, he pushed her to explore these feelings with his Primary, and him, in a threesome. She was against it, as she would rather explore such feelings with someone she has them for, and, in her words "not someone that is virtually a stranger to me". After a fight in which he gave her the silent treatment for two days, she agreed to this encounter. The day came, they all got together, and they never did anything.

My wife and I are currently in a constructive state of mind given the current circumstances. I'm doing the best I can to be supportive and understanding, and she is doing what she can to be respectful and forthcoming.

What I guess I'm trying to get out of this is:

1. In what ways can I be more supportive to my wife's desires to explore feelings and thoughts that she is having, and deal with the fact that she does not wish to explore any of them with me?

2. Given her issues with self esteem and self worth, would there be any direct links between that and the possibility of her exploring these feelings to be more harm than good without seeking some form of counseling?

3. Since many of you have more experiences to pull from, what are some suggested ways for my wife and I to open up dialogs about things, feelings, and thoughts, without causing any undue stress or anxiety about the impending conversation?
 
So this guy is her dom? He sounds like an asshole. Sorry, but its not a good dom that makes a woman force her husband to do as he says. Its also not a good dom to force a woman to have sex with someone she doesn't want to by taking away love and connection if she doesn't. I suggest you hold on for dear life and fight with everything you've got to get her away from him. He is not poly, he is abusive in my opinion. Poly is about consideration/empathy/compassion, consent, open and honest communication and integrity. This guy is missing all of these points but the communication and your wife is just skipping along with everything he does.

What did the ex wife say about him? It sounds like he has some issues about control to work out. The red flags are waving big time for me. This sounds like a very harmful situation, especially if she has self esteem issues.

I think that she is likely being more damaged because of this man. Keep talking and being honest... you won't get rid of undue stress, but it does get easier. I don't think that there is anything you can do that will MAKE her want to explore some of this stuff with you, but if she is wanting a man to control her life, then I suggest you rise to the occasion and give it all you got against this guy... all the while doing it with empathetic love and respect for her in every way... which is how he should be treating her.

I suggest doing a tag search for "lessons" "foundations" "mono/poly" "BDSM" "communication"
 
As another mono husband who was surprised by non-monogamy (no, this doesn't sound like polyamory to me either), I think you've been doing an A+ job of trying to be supportive. In many (if not most) cases, an ultimatum of "I'm having sex with other people, whether you like it or not." would likely result in a divorce proceedings.

I've seen a lot of thread that talk about a partner wanted to be "poly", whether it's accepted or not. Polyamory doesn't mean married to one person and screwing another.

Big question: has your wife done any research about what polyamory is and isn't? If she hasn't, I would suggest that you support her in polyamory by strongly suggesting she start there. There are TONS of resources about good polyamory habits and polyamory pitfalls to avoid. In addition to threads here, you can also google "Intro to Polyamory", "Polyamory 101", etc.

Last thing, while you're trying to be supportive of your wife, DO NOT lose sight of being supportive of yourself.
 
Being given an ultimatum sucks.

what are some suggested ways for my wife and I to open up dialogs about things, feelings, and thoughts, without causing any undue stress or anxiety about the impending conversation?

Non-violent communication can help, if you have any experience with the idea. Writing letters to me (or just writing her thoughts out for herself) works best for my current partner when she doesn't have the emotional energy/will/wherewithall for a face-to-face discussion.

After a fight in which he gave her the silent treatment for two days, she agreed to this encounter.

**IMnsHO**...

If she can't recognize how unhealthy this behavior is and what a bad situation she's gotten herself into, I'm afraid there's not much you're going to be able to do to help. Sometimes, people need to learn things for themselves, whatever the consequences, because not experiencing the thing(s) would be worse by their measure.

It's possible that saying about "If you love someone, set them free," really means, "Sometimes you have to just watch them make their own horrible mistakes (in your opinion)."

I don't know if there's much you can do except to decide whether and how long you want to work on things and where the lines between love, loyalty, and foolishness lie.
 
If your wife has submissive tendencies you should consider using this to your own advantage. Maybe you can be more dominant in your marriage. I wonder how she would respond to you trying some BDSM stuff. Don't ask for her permission, just do it like it's your nature and right. Maybe she just needs you to take charge of her, body and soul. Rule her world and then tell her to cut that other shit out. I don't know, maybe this is a hail Mary pass, maybe it's a way out of your mess...
 
This guy that's after her sounds like a creep. That's coming from someone interested in the D/s lifestyle for over a decade. A poly D should never seek to damage anyone else's mono relationship, which is exactly what he's doing.

I think before she (or you) explore this lifestyle, a sex-friendly, poly-friendly marital counselor is in order.
 
With the secret online affair ...ultimatum, Bdsm, ...I'd recommend cutting your losses. Love and logic are on vacation ....who are you really negotiating with....and why would you want to be negotiating in your marriage with this other guy by proxy.
Fuck it ...cut your losses.

Put her very best collar on ...hook up a leash and drop her off with him or the nearest pound.

Trust me ....way cheaper in the end.

Good luck d

Do you have access to a large dog transport kennel for the car ride ....safety first.
 
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Polyamory doesn't mean married to one person and screwing another.
It doesn't mean being dommed by your partners dom either. It means everyone coming together consentually. I see none here and no attempt to create that. Sure, people struggle to get there, but to tell a partner to suck it up and deal is just not okay at all!
If your wife has submissive tendencies you should consider using this to your own advantage. Maybe you can be more dominant in your marriage. I wonder how she would respond to you trying some BDSM stuff. Don't ask for her permission, just do it like it's your nature and right. Maybe she just needs you to take charge of her, body and soul. Rule her world and then tell her to cut that other shit out. I don't know, maybe this is a hail Mary pass, maybe it's a way out of your mess...
I mentioned that too. I wonder how she would respond if you dommed up and said, "get your ass home now!" And to the guy, "come around my woman again and I will beat the shit out of you and your wife." Play him at his own game :p (totally inappropriate domming by the way, but whatever, he's not being appropriate, why should you). After this maybe you could send him some literature on how to be a good dom. He sucks and gives us a bad name.
 
Act quickly - this is an emergency situation!

It sounds like he saw an opportunity to secretly influence a vulnerable woman and pounced on it, and is now involving her in sexual and BDsm situations for his own satisfaction, not hers. I am not into BDsm but have read enough to know that the dom is supposed to do everything they can for the benefit of the sub, not for the dom's own self-aggrandizement. It is unconscionable that he would pressure her to have sex with someone she doesn't want to or force you to be part of their dynamic - especially considering you have not consented to polyamory yet! How dare he do such a thing, and covertly! He is a shithead, plain and simple. Do they have a written contract between them?

She's making bad decisions and going about this all wrong. I fear it's because she's been depressed and this asshole guy is exerting pressure on her, trying to sell his snake oil. My ex would say someone should throw him a beating. I would get into therapy with her as soon as you can, this looks like a dangerous situation. There are poly-friendly professionals, and many who specialize in alternative lifestyle counseling are also a good bet.

Some links for you:
Polychromatic: Poly-Friendly Professionals.

Loving More's List of Poly-Friendly Professionals.

Psychology Today: Find a Therapist
. With this one, you can select "Relationship Issues" after you narrow it down for your zip code.

As a last resort, you could sign her into a psychiatric hospital or ward, citing that she's become a danger to herself as long as you can show proof that she put herself in harm's way. As her husband, you could do that. This is NOT to say that BDsm is a mental illness; I am simply responding to her depression and isolation, followed by a sudden shift in personality, and then letting someone she doesn't know well start controlling her life. Hospitalization isn't as bad as it sounds. I've had to intervene in that way for a close relative many times and it served them well. Sometimes people need a break from daily living to get better when their heads are not in a good place.

You could also ask her to read some good poly literature with you. There are a few good checklists to discuss with her over at Tristan Taormino's website (she wrote Opening Up, a good book to read together) here: http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/. You can also invite your wife to visit this forum and add her point of view, so we can help her and share some better options with her.
 
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Nyc's advice and points are really good ones. I would also tend to think that there is probably an underlying issue here. His behavior towards her is abusive (I'm into D/s but his actions are NOT what healthy BDSM looks like) and her behavior towards you is incredibly hurtful and disrespectful. This could affect your health and safety, both emotionally and physically, and you're being given no choice and no time to adjust.

Whether you do as some have suggested and try to beat him at his own game (I'm not so sure about this idea, since if you're fumbling about as a beginner, which is normal, you might just make him look more competent and desirable... ugh) or insist she go with you to therapy ASAP or straight up move out until she figures this out... something drastic needs to happen sooner rather than later.
 
I agree it's an emergency but for you not necessarily for her. Does she have a history of mental instability? I reject the idea that people acting selfish and stupid need automatic counseling. She is aware of the years and time invested in the relationship.....and the commitments she made to you. She's made a choice....this new lifestyle is clearly more important.....more fun ...more fulfilling and thus that's her focus. I've been told a million times Bdsm is consensual fun among adults.


Two key words consensual and adult. Maybe its a grand expression of choice. She finally found herself which is great....enjoy.

And on the other hand if this does break bad let the adults who caused it clean it up. Adults are responsible for there decisions and actions.....especially consensual ones.

When you started dating and got married were you looking to have an outside controling force fucking with the internal workings of your marriage and wife?......

What's your up side? What do you get out of this ....some fraction of a relationship...with a strange power dynamic.
 
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It seems to me that there alot of issues in play here. Her depression and declining self esteem made her a perfect subject for a domineering (not dominant) and manipulative connection with this "friend" who'd come out of a bitter divorce.

Over the years and at the many BDSM events I've attended in the US - I have witnessed first hand abusers and manipulators wearing the guise of "dominant" and they do not take submissives so much as hostages. Their need to control and micromanage is to my mind disturbing. And the relationships of this kind are abusive and damaging physically and psychologically. A dominant with integrity, poly or otherwise would not take on a submissive who is in a diminished emotional state NOR would they insist that submissive have non-consensual sex with another. A sincere dominant would make sure a submissive gets the care they need before proceeding with any deeper emotional or sexual connection. A sincere dominant might have contacted you to express his concerns and offer to help in finding your wife the care she needs before proceeding to anything else.

Your wife's depression needs diagnosis and treatment because until that is addressed, how can the veracity of her dicissions be determined? If you determine that she is a danger to herself by being in an abusive relationship then perhaps an intervention could benefit her. Judging from your message, you are a nuturing partner dealing with a dizzying number of issues simultaneously. Remember to take care of yourself too. All the players in this situation are adults and need to take responsibility for their actions. If a medical intervention is warranted for your wife and you are alright with that, fine. If not you need to let her go, with love. Let her go do what she needs to do; let her know you love her but you will not accept living in this situation any longer. Knowing and establishing your own boundaries and limits - be clear about under what circumstances she would be welcome back in your life if at all. The relationship with your wife is not a one way street; it is not imperative you to do all the care and work in the relationship. At some point she will have to accept responsibility for her own decisions.

Sometimes not making a decision is more painful than finally taking action.
 
First of all, I'd like to extend a thank you to all of you that did reply, as I wasn't quite sure what type of a response I would get (if any) being both non-poly, and a new member of the forums. I have read and re-read all of the posts, bookmarked all of the links provided, and plan on reading as much as I can to better my situation with my wife.

As for the general consensus, I will have to agree with the majority of you that I view the current actions this man has taken with my wife as psychologically abusive. However, any such expression of such a view point from me to her is not taken kindly. She has, and more than likely will, defend his position for him. It does not mean that she doesn't see it for herself tho, as she did tell me when the whole situation came up, she started to think if she was making a mistake being with him at all. All I know from this current predicament is from her, as since this has all happened, I am refusing to speak to or with him.

She has also expressed that she does not wish for our relationship to be that of a sub/dom one. According to her, she is happy with our marriage as is. Any such attempts from me otherwise has been and will continue to be frowned upon, not to mention discussed with him as a form of intrusion.

The more specific questions below:

What did the ex wife say about him? It sounds like he has some issues about control to work out.

From what my wife told me, not much. She got his side of the story years later after the divorce, probably during the past 6 months they have been talking. As for his ex-wife, all I'm certain about is they have no salvageable relationship, even for the sake of their children. According to my wife, he told her there was control issues in the marriage, but they were mainly hers, and she was back and forth as to his Poly lifestyle. However, such statements have to have the source (i.e. him) also considered.

Big question: has your wife done any research about what polyamory is and isn't? If she hasn't, I would suggest that you support her in polyamory by strongly suggesting she start there.

According to her letter, and the time she has opened up to tell me about the months leading up to the letter, most of, if not all of the information she knows of Poly relationships has either come directly from him, or from resources provided by him. I've asked her to explain certain aspects of it to me, and every time she claims she "cannot describe it, but you should just look it up".

Non-violent communication can help, if you have any experience with the idea. Writing letters to me (or just writing her thoughts out for herself) works best for my current partner when she doesn't have the emotional energy/will/wherewithall for a face-to-face discussion.

My wife does prefer to communicate difficult subject matter in letter form. I normally prefer she talks with me about such matters, and letters can be viewed as impersonal, and somewhat cold. However, seeing how she already under a ton of stress due to other outside influences, I have told her if she feels the need to write me letters under she feels more at ease, I would be ok with that. I always reassure her when I ask questions, I'm asking for my own knowledge, and not in an act of confrontation, which is how she has been viewing it as of lately. Our communications about this has been and continues to improve as we do it more often.

I think before she (or you) explore this lifestyle, a sex-friendly, poly-friendly marital counselor is in order.

I had mentioned a couples or marriage counselor to her before. As with a such an arrangement for just her, she is open to the Idea of counseling, but wants a therapist that is knowledgeable of Poly, and she reassured me that any such counseling will not detract her desire to seek out a relationship with this man.

As a last resort, you could sign her into a psychiatric hospital or ward, citing that she's become a danger to herself as long as you can show proof that she put herself in harm's way. As her husband, you could do that.

I appreciate the input here, however if I'm trying to salvage my marriage, I think having her committed might be pushing the envelope a little too far over the edge.

Any future input is greatly appreciated, and will not be wasted, as I'm doing the best I can with what I'm given.
 
Help can come in many forms

Well, whatever happened to good old fashioned boundaries?

Like, maybe it's NOT okay for her to bring their relationship inside your house (ie wearing a collar). Ummm, Hello? This is your relationship with your wife too! Sounds to me like this ass is getting off on intruding on your life and relationship with your wife! It's okay to say no way are we bringing that into our house together. I would NEVER stand for that, that is an intrusion into what you value with your wife, your relationship. You may not be able to convince her not to do these things, but you can continually tell her that you are NOT comfortable with it and that you don't want anything to do with it inside your house and inside the space your wife and you have built up over years spent together. That's not his space, and I think asking your wife to keep their kinky sex outside of your shared space is a completely appropriate boundary.

Secondly, this depression sounds like it's really affecting your wife. Beyond counseling she may wish to go to her doctor and explain she has been experiencing withdrawal from all her friends, in addition to whatever life stresses you are going through and see if she can get on some medications.

I'd share your concerns with your wife and ask her to discuss with you what she's looking for in a poly relationship. Maybe she needs some reassurance that. You're willing to work towards this in a consensual manner, where you both discuss your needs and visions foe the future.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. It sounds horrible.
 
The quote that stands out in my head is "no functional adult should attempt to control the emotions of another functional adult", Ethical Slut

However, I also believe the only thing that makes any marriage work is 100% honesty. In my opinion this sounds more like an affair (even without the sex she withheld information, which to me means she didn't trust you fully).

I am not sure how to help you in this, but my advice is this. It is very important for us to be honest, that's what people say when the basis of a relationship is "communication" what they mean, I believe is honesty. I don't think she should have kept these letters a secret from you. I wouldn't do that with my wife or our partner (we are in a trinogamous relationship with a bi woman).

If i were you, I would have a very serious talk with her that moving forward you need to be honest 100% with each other. The commitment is that in that contract of honesty you have to also take responsibility for hurt, anger, jealousy, own that and not take that out on her. In our experience with poly relationships or swinger relationships the most VITAL element to maintain truth and honesty, be honest about your feelings, and just never try to tell someone their emotions are not valid. We can't control how we FEEL or become attached to others, we can control how we act based on that. Her actions were dishonest.

Buddha said clinging to anger is like gripping a hot coal with the intent to throw it at someone, you will get burned. I believe in forgiveness, but I also believe you can't forgive until someone realizes how their dishonesty hurt you and asks for forgiveness. Once you have worked past the dishonesty (which can be difficult) and move towards fierce commitment to truth, and open communication, then you can choose if monogamy is what you ARE as a couple (in other words, if she enters another relationship SHE is choosing him over you). If that is the reality you may lose her.

If you can see one of the most important truths in life I believe which is from the book "Ethical Slut" (a book that REALLY could help you A LOT), "Love is not a starvation economy". TIME is though, and if you need her time, she will have to figure out how to balance that, as far as love goes though, when you love someone you love them, and it's possible to love your wife, and your kids and your parents completely... it is also possible to share romantic love, and unlike starvation economies where it is divided, it can even grow stronger.

Our love for our partner boned my wife and I MORE not less, we are more thankful to each other, and the addition of a third has brought more love into this house. It's just a question of breaking out of the mold of "normal" societal imposed monogamy (which in evolutionary terms is actually not natural for any mammals including humans, and a relatively recent development).

I think if your wife means enough to you, if you truly LOVE her, rather than want to possess her, if you can get past the idea that you can only love one person, and get past the idea that love is not divided it just grows to accommodate then total honesty is the only hurdle. In fairness you should see how she would feel if put in your place. It is important for your health, security, etc... that you know she isn't just wanting to "try this guy on" before she leaves you. If it's truly poly, and it's a relationship she needs to see through, then opening up and letting go may be the only way to keep the love you have. It's a difficult situation you are in. I would strongly recommend you read "Open", and "Ethical Slut" both books will give you amazing insight and even coping mechanisms.
 
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