NovemberRain
New member
I found this to be a fascinating and articulate discussion:
http://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2013/01/24/theproblemwithpolynormativity/
http://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2013/01/24/theproblemwithpolynormativity/
Here’s the thing. Rules have an inverse relationship to trust. They are intended to bind someone to someone else’s preferences. They are aimed at constraint. I will limit you, and you will limit me, and then we’ll both be safe.
Oh I'm going to like this author. That is a thing of beauty, thanks NOVEMBERRAIN
Might I ask why?I like the comments better than the article. *shrug*
Point taken. In retrospect I think she could have been a little clearer on the difference between rules as preferred boundaries and rules as commandments.In the comments several issues I had with the article are brought up. I understand that she focusing on poly as it's portrayed in the media, which is not a topic I'm well-versed in, but I feel that her definition of what a "rule" is was not adequately explained before she discussed how bad rules can be. We are all adults, no one can force us to follow a rule, so on some level ANY "rule" can be termed an "agreement". Even if it's not something you WANT to do, you've agreed to it for the sake of your partner (or the sake of the kids, or whatever). She talks later in the comments about how important communication and clarification are, but in the main article she falls back on the idea that we shouldn't need rules if we trust our partners (yes, I'm aware I'm oversimplifying. It was a long article.). I DO trust my partners, but unless I know that they are uncomfortable with x, y, or z, how can I possibly make an informed decision about whether or not to engage in x, y, or z?!?
Again, point taken but I think it goes more towards the nuances of language and the influence they have on our thought processes. Along roughly the same lines as why most of us agree that using "gay" to equate to anything being bad ("That's gay" etc) is likely to foster negative feelings towards the gay community and as such we shouldn't use the term in that way, using the primary-secondary structure is a way of creating a hierarchy at least in thought.Also, regarding her take on hierarchy, there have been extensive discussions on this board about using primary/secondary as "descriptive" versus "prescriptive". I feel her "request" of the poly community to stop using primary and secondary unless you honestly mean the "prescriptive" use of the terms is unreasonable and unrealistic. While words cannot mean just anything we choose (Boring Guy, that was for you!) there are shades of meaning within different contexts. A "submissive" wife in the media portrayals of the 9150's is not the same as a "submissive" wife in a present day D/s relationship (well, I suppose it COULD be, but odds are it's not).
Hmmm. I'm not entirely certain I agree.Finally, her use of the word "progressive" to talk about ways of looking at relationships irritated me. Poly is not more "progressive", nor is it "enlightened". Following that logic monogamy is then "regressive" and "unenlightened", which just ain't so. What's progressive is DISCUSSING various relationship options and desires, rather than blindly following the assumed standard. It's sad that communication with one's partner(s) is the enlightened behavior, but there you go. Polly itself is not progressive, it's just a different option.
Well hopefully some of my responses helped explain why I stand where I do.And I'm not surprised you liked the article Helo. To speak plainly, as you prefer, some of your posts irritate me in similar ways.
Monogamy is, at its core, an authoritarian relationship based on ownership both in practice and historical context. I've explained the why of that several times here so I need not repeat it. Polyamory is, at its core, a more egalitarian form of a relationship wherein the needs and desires of one person are not controlled by another person, at least not nearly to the degree it is in monogamy.
What we have now is pretty warped in terms of fulfilling human happiness and not encouraging some of the negative tendencies in humans. I would call that form of monogamy regressive, easily.
Marcus, have you raised children with anyone?
I don't feel that I'm asking MC for permission, exactly, but I absolutely DO ask him if minds being single parent for an evening while I go out (whether it's with my friends or my partner or whatever)
Also, regarding her take on hierarchy, there have been extensive discussions on this board about using primary/secondary as "descriptive" versus "prescriptive". I feel her "request" of the poly community to stop using primary and secondary unless you honestly mean the "prescriptive" use of the terms is unreasonable and unrealistic.
I wonder how your views on living by right versus living by permission are affected when both or all parties are responsible for children. For myself, I can't see anything as clear cut as a right v permission dichotomy, because I do not have sole say in how I spend my time.
If I start to think that I am entitled to my partner acting in a way that I want them to then I am not respecting them as an independent adult.
Indeed I have been.And you've been disagreed with several times as well. Historically monogamy may have been about ownership, but so were many poly arrangements: a man and his harem, for example, or the practice of one man having multiple wives. Even mistresses (in Western culture, at least) were historically expected to be faithful to their patron.
I would agree that in every relationship, romantic or otherwise, certain concessions have to be made by those involved; things have to be given up or abstained from. In traditional monogamy, those things are far more numerous and serious than they are in modern polyamory.At it's core, monogamy is no more about control or ownership than poly. Each has its practitioners that try to control another person and each has its practitioners that realize all parties are independent entities.
You're right, I've never sat down and given an exhaustive explanation for why I take the position that I do. Generally because I've never opened a thread dedicated to doing so, I figure if someone is curious they can ask me personally. I'm not here for converts and my views are on display in the marketplace of ideas alongside many others that a browser can choose to pick up or discard on their merits as they see fit.And this very quote is why sometimes your posts annoy me. Yes, you've said the same thing in many places, but no matter how many rebuttals are put up, you continue to present your stance as though it's incontrovertible FACT, when actually it's YOUR INTERPRETATION of the available evidence and information. (And I suspect there's info that you aren't taking into account, which is perfectly normal and to be expected as it's pretty difficult to consider EVERYTHING, but again that means your conclusions are not infallible.)
I dont disagree with the highlighted, but that's still above where I find the problem in the structure of the overall relationship.YOU may see monogamy as authoritarian for yourself. That's fine. But that does not mean that monogamy IS authoritarian. At it's core, monogamy is about two people choosing to only be with each other. All the rest of the baggage (controlling, cheating, lying, jealousy) can happen in non-monogamous relationships as well (cheating, open, swinging, poly, whatever), due to human nature.
"No, you can't go out and drink beers with your buddies. You've been working late all week and our daughter needs her daddy to tuck her in tonight."