The Notebook of JaneQSmythe

*More...so what is the issue?

So, what's the issue!?

From my point there is no issue, only a failure at communication. But, since I failed at it twice I think I might benefit from some outside input.

So, I am entirely new to the whole “kinky” scene. From my standpoint – I am exploring the possibilities but I don't know the etiquette, so I am cautious. (I know that some people see poly as inherently kinky but it doesn't feel that way to me...I've ID'd as poly for decades...it seems vanilla at this point. “Kinky” still means “stuff I don't do” - i.e. if I do it it then in is just “regular” stuff.)

But...I am interested in this rope-play/bondage thing. So I ask if I can watch, I get invited to participate a little, I come back for a little more. This is HOT stuff!

So, I am trying to convey to Dude what I have learned about myself and my reactions to this exposure:

I really liked the “rope” part...but I had a negative reaction to the guy (dude doing the tying) telling me what I could and could not do with “his” girl. (“Not on the lips.”) Now, don't get me wrong – I had no inclination, at all, in any way, to over-ride this or press any boundaries in this case. I was asking for an invitation to THEIR party and have NO say in how they structure their interactions. But, MY personal preference, (as a complete newbie and interloper) would be to hear any restrictions from the mouth of the person that I am interacting with directly. (i.e. if this was a negotiated, on-going “thing” and not a random one-off event).

Dude basically went off on me and told me that I am a horrible person. That that could never happen within the boundaries of a D/s dynamic and that she CAN'T be the one to tell me what the boundaries are – and that I am asking someone to break their contract by even communicating with me. Whoa, Nelly! From my perspective, I am simply observing my reactions and what my preferences would be. I really don't understand where the vehemence is coming from.

I talked to my girl, VV, and she understood where I was coming from. So I tried again with Dude, same response. So, I see a couple of possibilities here – a.) other people are allowed to have their preferences but I am NOT (which seems weird) b.) there are unbreakable tenets of BDSM of which I am unaware (which is entirely possible – but negotiation would seem to be one of them) c.) Dude is familiar with a model of BDSM that is not universal (which seems the most likely explanation to me – seeing as how he was exposed to the lifestyle without being a part of it, per se)

Comments welcome. (I don't ever want to upset someone's dynamic, but I do want to be able to express my own comfort levels/preferences...is there a way to do both...or should I just bow out of the whole "kinky" scene now before I upset someone?)

JaneQ
 
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Okay, well, I am not a kink scenester as such, I'm more into fucking about at home, but my take:

You absolutely need to know your preferences, and be able to vocalise them. Yes, negotiation is a basic tenet :)

Thinking of Dude's reaction, though... Sometimes I get disproportionately righteous in response to someone nudging a precious thing that I feel is generally misunderstood. I wonder if it's the same here for Dude.

Some people's dynamics definitely would mean that you could not hear boundaries directly from a sub. This challenges the social convention of strength / independence as being able to speak up for yourself. It can make people uncomfortable, and uncertain of a sub's agency.

While you were only expressing your comfort levels and possible boundaries, sometimes these boundaries themselves can trigger a strong response from others, when the boundaries seem to be based on a misunderstanding. Does that make sense?

You're saying: this made me uncomfortable.

Dude may be reacting how he is because he thinks: what's making you uncomfortable about this? Do you misunderstand how these dynamics can work? Do you not get how she can consent to this, how she can be okay with the Dom speaking for her? i.e. is your discomfort because you misjudge the situation?

I'm not saying he's right, and obviously I have no idea why he's reacting the way he is. But... it could be that, maybe.
 
At some point, the bar had to close and MrS managed to herd my drunken grinning self to the car and get me home (at which point he calls Dude to report that made a drunken ass out of myself but he managed to get 'McDrunky-Molests-a-lot' home in one piece...and that I had a really good time.)

This cracked me up, seriously.

I've had my share of situations where I've had to be looked after... It's funny when I hear my partners commiserate over me being drunkenly belligerent or similar.

'McDrunky-Molests-a-lot' is gold.
 
so MrClean had to step in as my “minder”/chauffer/chaperone/boy toy. Are there “rules”? Not really. His job is to see to it that I: a.) don't get arrested, b.) don't get raped, and c.) only go home with him

See here, what would you expect him to do if things did cross a line? Would he have spoken for you?

See, if I went somewhere with my Daddy and was playing with other people, I'd want to stay in sub mode so he would be the one to stop the Great Unwashed clawing at me. Our dynamic means that he says what goes, especially when we are together, so he would be the one to enforce my boundaries. I'd prefer that though I would speak up if he didn't.

The thing about power exchanges is that it means one person does belong, is answerable, to the other. She isn't 'his' girl, she is his girl. If that concept makes you uncomfortable than yes, keep it vanilla or with unattached people. That's not to say everyone expresses their dynamic in that way, but what happened there really isn't unusual or particularly full on.
 
If you are digging the rope -- look up a dungeon and take a rope class. Learn to do it safely. It can be fun. And remember... like with anything else... "my rope style is not your rope style." ;)

To me? You did fine. You asked permission, you do realize your joined THEIR already in progress scene.

You don't know what they agreed to as the boundaries for that scene, and if the D/s overtones was for that scene only or a 24/7 arrangement or what.

I see that you prefer to know that stuff from the person's mouth directly, but the scene was already in progress. Maybe they didn't want to stop the mental flow. Or maybe he knows something you don't -- like kissing on the lips when she's in subspace wigs her out?

Next time if you want to honor your own preferences... you negotiate that up front before the scene starts with the players if you are going to participate. But for stumbling in on someone else's thing being played out in a "public space" you asked permission and they could have said yes/no to you.

Dude's response? Well, it seemed to push his buttons some how.

You could apologize for pushing his buttons inadvertently.
You could ask him to apologize to YOU for attacking your character and telling you that you are horrible rather than giving you feedback on your behavior. (That was not inadvertent.)
You could ask him if he's willing to clarify how your behavior was wrong.
Could remind him you ARE allowed to have your own preferences -- just like he gets to have his. You are allowed to discover you HAVE some preferences in this new world in these new situations. Could ask how you having preferences of your own is preventing him from having his preferences?

Or you could let it go. (Or could do something else I cannot think of right now.)

Maybe Dude's preferences/experiences frown on "topping from the bottom" once a scene is in progress. And the sub in this case speaking up falls in that zone to him? So your stating your preferences is pushing that button?

On the flip side... some people LIKE topping from the bottom. *shrug*

Or maybe he felt judged or triggered by HOW you expressed your preference? Not so much that you have one, but HOW you shared it with him? Only he knows. :/

Galagirl
 
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See here, what would you expect him to do if things did cross a line? Would he have spoken for you?

Not exactly sure where you are going with this but, yes, if things were heading to "out of hand" then he most certainly would have spoken for me - we are friends. Friends help keep friends from getting into trouble/making bad mistakes.

Ultimately, I am responsible for my own behavior. BUT, if I make a mistake in judgement and get myself into a situation where I am too fucked up to be responsible for myself (or too physically weak/small to extricate myself from a situation) then he, as my friend, would do what it took to keep me safe (as I would do the same for him - except that I am not physically strong enough to toss him over my shoulder and put him in the car and drive him home).

Having a "minder" is a back-up plan in case I make a mistake. (Although, to be honest, as a friend-not-partner, it would be really rude of me to put him in this position - so I am likely to be a LOT more careful than if I was with MrS or Dude.)

See, if I went somewhere with my Daddy and was playing with other people, I'd want to stay in sub mode so he would be the one to stop the Great Unwashed clawing at me. Our dynamic means that he says what goes, especially when we are together, so he would be the one to enforce my boundaries. I'd prefer that though I would speak up if he didn't.

The thing about power exchanges is that it means one person does belong, is answerable, to the other. She isn't 'his' girl, she is his girl.... That's not to say everyone expresses their dynamic in that way, but what happened there really isn't unusual or particularly full on.

And this is the type of thing that I am observing and learning from. I am also noticing what my reaction is to these situations and what my preferences are. Which is why I think that this not "unusual or particularly full on" events are a good introduction for people that are just looking into kink for the first time?

If that concept makes you uncomfortable than yes, keep it vanilla or with unattached people.

And my point is that I didn't know it would make me uncomfortable until I was presented with the situation (since I have no a priori objection on a theoretical level). And is my discomfort because this is all new or because I have a fundamental issue because of underlying assumptions that I have about how relationships and sexuality work? For me, going to these "soft kink" "newbie friendly" events is a way to understand both the lifestyle and my responses.

So I went, I observed, I dipped my toes in the water and I had a little insight into myself. Which I wanted to discuss with my partner. Who had a reaction that felt out of proportion to what I was saying - which puzzled me.

Everyone's responses have been helpful in helping me gain new perspective.
Thank you.

JaneQ
 
Not exactly sure where you are going with this but, yes, if things were heading to "out of hand" then he most certainly would have spoken for me - we are friends. Friends help keep friends from getting into trouble/making bad mistakes.

So why did it unsettle you that he was speaking for her? Your friend/minder/boytoy would have spoken up for you if someone else was doing things you would have taken objection to, so why was it different with this guy and his girl?


o me? You did fine. You asked permission, you do realize your joined THEIR already in progress scene.

You don't know what they agreed to as the boundaries for that scene, and if the D/s overtones was for that scene only or a 24/7 arrangement or what.

I see that you prefer to know that stuff from the person's mouth directly, but the scene was already in progress. Maybe they didn't want to stop the mental flow. Or maybe he knows something you don't -- like kissing on the lips when she's in subspace wigs her out?

Next time if you want to honor your own preferences... you negotiate that up front before the scene starts with the players if you are going to participate. But for stumbling in on someone else's thing being played out in a "public space" you asked permission and they could have said yes/no to you.

Also this ^^
 
So why did it unsettle you that he was speaking for her? Your friend/minder/boytoy would have spoken up for you if someone else was doing things you would have taken objection to, so why was it different with this guy and his girl?

Ah...now I see the disconnect. My minder is there to protect me from my own bad decisions, and only secondarily, and in extreme cases, from other people. As my friend/minder, MrClean would have spoken TO ME if MY behavior was getting out of control in terms of getting arrested/raped/absconded with - i.e. I decided to do a strip tease down mainstreet, follow people into dark alleys or accompany people into panel vans.

He would have taken me aside and reminded me that I was drunk and not using my best judgement and that he had agreed to help me be safe for the evening and then convinced me that it was time to go home. If someone ELSE was doing something that I would have taken objection to - I would have been telling them off MYSELF and he would only step in if they were ignoring my objections or preventing him from doing his "friend-job" of keeping me safe (i.e. preventing him from talking to me/convincing me to go home). The only time that he would have "spoken up for me" directly is if I was actually incapacitated (i.e. passed out drunk and someone was messing with me).

Kind of like a "Living Will" - the clause only kicks in if someone is actually incapable of speaking for themselves. The "minder" role is a safety-net of last resort - for if I screw up and let myself go too far. Under usual circumstances the "minder" role never comes into play and he would just be the "designated driver".

JaneQ
 
Might want to be extremely cautious

Not a good idea to be involved with people you don't know very well and fully trust. Never is it a good idea to become involved in any scene without talking directly to all involved or being present when his sub is explicitly agreeing to exactly what is to be done and even then take no part what-so-ever unless you know them very well.

If you aren't careful it could be the hardest lesson you will ever learn, always be suspicious of anyone who lets you be a part of any restraint scenes without knowing you very well, as it is likely they will teach you a lesson in making sure you took every precaution necessary to ensure you did have consent and that it was desired, blackmail is not fun and can turn your life into a living hell

I wouldn't even watch, unless I was close friends with all participants
 
BDSM as the Star Trek Mirror Universe? Well, Kinda

I really liked the “rope” part...but I had a negative reaction to the guy (dude doing the tying) telling me what I could and could not do with “his” girl. (“Not on the lips.”) Now, don't get me wrong – I had no inclination, at all, in any way, to over-ride this or press any boundaries in this case. I was asking for an invitation to THEIR party and have NO say in how they structure their interactions. But, MY personal preference, (as a complete newbie and interloper) would be to hear any restrictions from the mouth of the person that I am interacting with directly. (i.e. if this was a negotiated, on-going “thing” and not a random one-off event).

Dude basically went off on me and told me that I am a horrible person. That that could never happen within the boundaries of a D/s dynamic and that she CAN'T be the one to tell me what the boundaries are – and that I am asking someone to break their contract by even communicating with me. Whoa, Nelly! From my perspective, I am simply observing my reactions and what my preferences would be. I really don't understand where the vehemence is coming from.

BDSM is disconcerting. It is especially so when new to it at least in my experience. There is SO MUCH in BDSM that I would not want to be around if it appeared in a non-BDSM context. For example, I know folks who are in Master/Slave relationships. I find M/s disturbing. It is not something I can wrap my head around. I fundamentally do not get why anyone would give up that much control over their life - or accept that level of control over someone else. But the people I know in M/s relationships, it was freely chosen, and they are happy. I intensely dislike humiliation scenes. I do not understand why someone would want that, would find it cathartic and maybe even hot. But people do.

BDSM is not exactly 'opposite land' to mainstream, everyday life. Generally, what is socially appropriate in everyday life works just fine in BDSM contexts. For me, it was weird, as an adult, independent, woman to find that some women agree to be in a relationship where she cannot speak for herself in some contexts. (And some men and transfolk do so too.) I am used to that dynamic now, but it still disturbs me.

In my little corner of the kinky universe, I talk to whoever I want to talk to, scene with, etc. They are responsible for telling me if their agreements are such that I need to speak with their Domme, Dom, Master, etc. It's not my job to magically discern their agreements. It is my job to respect those agreements once I am aware of them, even if I find them stupid or odd.

The one exception to the 'talk to who I want to talk to' rule is if someone is in the middle of a scene - similar to your situation. I don't interrupt or impinge on scenes - that is bad form wherever you go in BDSM land! But if invited, or had some situation where I had to interact with people in a scene, I don't talk to the person who is being acted upon - the bottom, or sub. I would talk to the person running the scene, the top, or dominant. One reason is that it is simply polite to direct questions to the 'one in charge' in this context. The other reason is that bottoms or subs may be in subspace. Subspace is an altered state. People in subspace may not be able or want to communicate. Talking to someone else besides the top may jerk them out of subspace, which is no fun and can be disconcerting on its own too. So your directing questions to the sub, while appropriate in any other context, may have impinged on her subspace and thus changed the experience for her.

I have no way of knowing if this is true. Don't feel guilty or bad or that you did anything wrong. There is no way to know this stuff before experiencing it. The time to ask about restrictions directly from the sub (and dom too) is before the scene, when the scene is being negotiated. But you were drawn into a scene after it began, after their negotiations were done. It happens, it can be hot, but it's not 'best practice' so to speak. Again, no harm, no foul - just something to know.

Generally, again speaking from my own limited experiences, people are forgiving of new people learning. After all, everyone was new once, even the domliest doms from Ye Leather Olde Guard.

As for Dude, no idea. When I have an experience where my reaction is outsized and overly vehement to the situation - which happens more than I like - it's usually not about the situation or even the other person. There is something going on internally. Maybe Dude is having something similar go on?
 
Kind of like a "Living Will" - the clause only kicks in if someone is actually incapable of speaking for themselves. The "minder" role is a safety-net of last resort - for if I screw up and let myself go too far. Under usual circumstances the "minder" role never comes into play and he would just be the "designated driver".

Again... maybe he knows something you don't about her in her subspace. She may not be capable of speaking.

Maybe this could help you see a taste of that side of it.

http://www.asubmissivesjourney.com/submissive_subspace.html

Galagirl
 
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Social Butterfly Swept Away by Tsunami

OMG...so much has happened since my last post I forget where I even am in the story...we got off on the BDSM tangent.

I'll have to fill out the details later but...long story slightly shorter: Dude seems to have found himself a girlfriend. We'll call her Lotus. AND...she is awesome! Married, Bi, Poly and just my age (and SO sexy).

Longer Version: He had been txting/writing to her while talking to the first two girls on OKC. They have several interests in common (which I don't share, but MrS does) and we ALL have other interests in common.

First Date - Their first "date" was a little different in that it was a group thing - Me, MrS, Dude, her, and a (male/partnered/mono) friend of Dude's from previous posts (his girlfriend couldn't come). We all went to dinner, concert, out for snacks, and then to her place to talk long into the night (her hubs was asleep). They didn't even kiss but lots of dancing, touching, sitting close. Both agreed that there was enough interest there to get together again.

Second Date - ALSO not solo. This time just the four of us for dinner and out for drinks after. Interestingly enough, I ended up meeting her mom and she met my parents as we collected everyone for dinner. (We teased Dude that he'll have to just let my parents be his "stand-ins" since he doesn't talk to his own.)

Third Date - STILL not solo. Another concert, this time with the four of us and her husband, who we will call TT. Dinner, concert, then back to their place. MrS ended up crashing but the rest of us ended up drinking, playing and fooling around and ... etc. etc. She and I ended up talking and bonding - no issues there.

...unfortunately at this point Dude (who has no filter) tried to start a conversation at, what I felt, was an inappropriate time (i.e. everyone worked up, excited, mostly drunk, not clear headed...more later) and we ended up having a huge disagreement (at least on MY side - he was clueless about how upset I actually was, long story).

Anyway - after the Third Date, MrS and I ended up going home and Dude stayed at Lotus/TT's house for the next day or so...(yes, sex happened)

Dude came home and we worked our stuff out (Thank God!)...over a couple of conversations.

Anyway, Fourth Date - this one actually solo - TT being out of town. Dude went up to Lotus's house Sunday afternoon and stayed through today.

**********

Obviously , this is really early in the game but four "dates" in 4 weeks with 2 sleepovers and everyone doing fine seems ... good.

She and I seem to be developing a flirty-friend/FWB dynamic while both really interested in seeing how things develop between her and Dude as the main focus. They both say that, basically, they are interested in finding an OSO for a LTR, neither seems interested in casual dating once they are poly-saturated.

She and MrS get along just fine (OKC rates them the highest match actually - she's 99% with MrS, 97% with me and 96% with Dude - another source of teasing.)

I'm curious as to how her husband feels about the dynamics developing....he's the hardest for me to read and I don't know much about the history there yet. I'm happy to play with him as part of a group thing (I'm fine with casual fun sexy times) but don't see that developing into anything.

*****************

On a side note, she also happens to be a Pro-Domme. Given the recent conversation here I feel like I now have an "in" to explore and ask questions on a personal level. I find it funny that I am intrigued by the whole "kinky" scene just because of my exposure via poly and Dude ends up dating a Pro-Domme randomly. (Despite living in a BDSM "house" for a while he doesn't ID as kinky either - but has had much more exposure than I have...hence the earlier conversation/confusion.

**********

This is probably too long and incoherent...but I wanted to give you all an update. I haven't been posting much because life has been INTERESTING!

JaneQ
 
I just read your blog " the journey" from start to finish and some of this blog's posts... I LOVE them! Although your transition to being "with" Dude while maintaining your marriage with MrS seems fraught with more turmoil that my current situation so far... I shared a lot of the same moments... including G calling me a jackass.and me feeling like one... anyways it's not often in my life that I feel like someone understands me and is on the same wavelengthbut your story really resonates with me. I hope you keep blogging and thank you so much for sharing your story I doubt you know how truly helpful it is.

-Cherry
 
I can't believe how long it's been since I've posted in this thread...

Been kind of swept up in incorporating Lotus into our lives, I think. (Some group NRE at play :D)

It's been over four months and the multiple tiers of the "polymath" have been growing and learning and evolving.

I was talking to Dude the other day and it seems like this "relationship tangle" includes a lot of "firsts" - Dude's first experience being a hinge, my first experience being a metamour, Lotus's first poly "boyfriend" (as opposed to FWB?). I actually am quite proud of how smoothly things have progressed.

Intermixed with all of this has been a number of medical things to deal with. MrS (who has a dental phobia) had a tooth issue to deal with...as did Dude (who has a needle phobia). In December I had to have a minor medical procedure due to an abnormal pap (MrS went with me). Earlier this month Dude found a lump in my right breast and I had to go for a mammo/usn and Lotus went with me (no worries, only a cyst).

Just this week - Lotus got bad news back on a biopsy she had done and had to go back for a more significant procedure. She asked for all of us to come spend time with her the night before so the boys packed up the dogs (and a change of clothes for me) and we all met up at her place for cuddles and comfort. I had to go to work today but the boys (and dogs) stayed at her place while her hubby took her to the procedure.

I read a lot of posts on this forum about "what if I NEED someone...and they aren't available" - but for us it seems like one of the added benefits of poly is that there is ALWAYS someone available. Someone to go to a dentist/doctor/testing appt, someone to take care of the dogs, someone to cover the expenses, etc. Everyone willing to step up to the plate...I am blessed to have such people in my chosen family.

Tonight I am home alone sans boys, sans dogs...and I am fine - GOOD, in fact. Holding down the fort (with a bastard cat to help) and glad that Lotus has the support she needs right now. Only wishing I could be with her/them...
 
Have I mentioned lately how perfectly adorable my husband is sometimes?:p

*******

So, last night the boys and dogs came home after spending a few days at Lotus's (and TT's) house - supporting and comforting her though her procedure and fears.

MrS is giving me an "I'm home!" hug...as we are pulling apart (so I can go greet Dude)... his face lights up in this astonished happy GRIN: "She kissed me!" (If he was a wiggler, he would have wiggled :D - if I was a 'puter-savvy chick I would put a clip here of that scene from "The Princess Bride" where Buttercup kisses the king and says "...I won't be seeing you again since I'm killing myself once we reach the honeymoon suite. " - and the king turns and says to his wife "...She kissed me!..."

I hug him again - he is SOOO CUTE - "Like, did she kiss you 'good-bye'..." (she has been working up to getting him used to this) - "... or did she "kiss you" - kiss you?" "She KISSED me!" "Did she kiss you all warm and soft and sweet and ...?!" His eyes go wide, and he nods - all smiles, and astonished-like. (I wiggle for him, give him an extra squeeze and go to greet Dude).

******

(I don't really know why MrS is always so surprised when sexy girls want to be with him...it's not like it's that uncommon...he's just so oblivious sometimes!)

******

For the record: kissing Lotus is a special treat in "extra-sexy". Harkens back to my first experience kissing a girl (MrS's ex-GF, SweetPea, that sexy little harlot!) - and how wonderful, and different (to kissing boys) it was. Soft, warm, vulnerable, sweet, intoxicating...and SOOOO...feminine - you can just melt into kisses like that!

Life is Good!
 
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Belgian beer

Hi JaneQSmythe,

I've just finished reading the "historical" part of your lifestory here on the polyamory forum and found it a very good read indeed. The replies of some other members that you should make it into a book is completely justified (Being Belgian myself, that one reply with the threat of buying all the Belgian beer if you wouldn't start writing is much fun: we have over a 100 breweries, which produce about 2400 different beers (http://www.belgabeers.com/en/61-how-many-belgian-beers-are-there)).

Thank you for sharing and for the degree of honesty you've achieved through your life (with, inevitably, a nasty mistake to trigger it);) I find your account very usefull and probably will use the insights it gave me (not the actual events) to mold the character around for my book.

I look forward to read this blog as well!
 
Thanks for the link roman - I have tried a good number of Belgian beers (a few hundred?) but still have a LOT to try it looks like.


*****

Random thought:

The boys will sometimes collude for their (and my:p) enjoyment. For instance, one will ask me to reach for something or pick up something that gets my bum within pinching distance of the other one:rolleyes:...

So Dude got me tonight and MrS gives me a sweet little pinch, and I'm thinking how nice it is that, after 21+ years together, he still gets a thrill out of patting my fanny...

...and then comes the stray thought that, if we were mono, then perhaps that would mean that my fanny is the ONLY one that he could legitimately pinch, BUT, because we are poly and he could be pinching other bums (assuming a consenting derriere :p) that fact that he still wants to pinch MINE...priceless!
 
So, Dan Savage says he has never been invited to a 5-year poly anniversary (I think I read that somewhere on here)...

Today is Dude and I's "official" 3-year anniversary (from when MrS gave his "blessing" to us ... not including the "jackassery" time from my other blog)...so far, so good, and getting better :D. I now acknowledge that we have been together for "more that a minute" and we understand each other on a deeper and more meaningful level as time goes by. (NRE is long over and we still love each other as we "really" are.)

Not that I would invite Dan Savage to our anniversary anyway - but a 5 year one is not out of the question :rolleyes:.

JaneQ

PS. Our "official" anniversary date is actually an arbitrary day somewhere in the general vicinity of our anniversary that we decided upon last year (two years in) due to a random event that happened this day a year ago. None of us remember the "actual" date ... it was after my birthday, before CrazyGirl's birthday and a few days after MrS wrecked the car.
 
Happy Anniversary, dahling!!!!

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